Ruger No. 1: 45-70 or .458 win-mag?

[Bulliwig]

Dear fellow casters,
I‘m looking into Ruger‘s most famous single shot rifle. I hope to get some Info and experience especially on the use of cast bullets. I am not sure which one to get and can‘t try both calibers, because the no.1‘s are quite Pricey around here. I have to decide between the 45-70 or 458 win mag. What are the differences especially in the field of cast?

Pros (in my eyes) for .45-70:
- i am already casting and reloading for this caliber, so no new stuff to buy
-common and cheap components
- is known to shoot cast bullets well
-hundreds of reloading data available

Points for .458:
-can still use my moulds
-longer barrel and heavier gun to soak up recoil
-most times a little cheaper guns
-more power (we have to limit the pressure of our.45-70 reloads to 31900 psi)


I have read that many people had problems with their .458 win and using lighter bullets because of an overly large and long freebore. How is it with the no. 1?

Any advice and experience will be much appreciatet,

Timo

[No_1]

I have a #1 & #3 in 45-70. I wanted one in 458 but with the availability of 45-70 brass vs 458 I think I’ll stick with 45-70.

[Castaway]

I’m curious as to what you intend to shoot. There’s not many things that walk, crawl, creep or fly that a #1 in 45-70 can’t take down with authority. Availability of brass is another factor. What moulds do you have that can’t be used for a 45-70 and why won’t they work? If you’re wondering about whether the recoil of the 458 vs 45-70 is a factor, I’d stay with a 45-70 which can be accurately loaded from relatively mild to teeth chattering levels. At upper end loads, I don’t think the difference in rifle mass will be noticeable.

[pworley1]

If you get the 458 and only want to shoot Trapdoor level loads there is no problem. If you should ever for some reason want to shoot 458 win mag level loads you still can.

[Bulliwig]

I have no intention of shooting full power .458 loads there is not any creature in the whole country in the need of this much power ( happily [smilie=l:).
All i need are loads at or slightly over.45-70 power. As long as we are allowed to use lead bullets for hunting: no problem within standard cip-pressure for the 45.-70.
When i am required to use lead free bullets: rather tricky to reach the required minimum allowance for energy which is 1475 ft lbs @~110 yards within the allowed pressure range. Maybe they will never ban lead ammunition where i hunt, but you never know. Having possibilitys you do not need to use is better than the other way round, isn‘t it?:mrgreen:

Regarding to my moulds: i currently only cast Saeco #22 (500 gn) for my .45-70 baikal double. Had one time a 450 gn lee mould which casted too small a diameter and sold it. Not sure which next mould i want to use, maybe a postell or spitzer type and cast a soft nose for expansion. But a lighter bullet would be nice too, around 300 gn maybe. I use the hornady 300 gn hp for hunting in my 45-70 and really do like them. Will the .458 shoot light bullets accurate?

[Nobade]

You will likely find much better accuracy with the 45-70. The throat on a SAAMI 458 WM is just stupid and very challenging to get good accuracy with. The way to fix that is to rechamber to 458 Lott but then you're looking at much more expensive brass. And as mentioned, 45-70 is plenty powerful. I'm a big fan of 458 WM, but only with a custom non standard reamer.

[eastbank]

a 400 gr bullet at 2000 fps will kill any thing in the world with proper shot placement. i shoot ruger rifles in a #1 and a #3, both are lighter than a #1 tropical in .458 and as you will be carrying it while hunting i opted for the 45-70.

[TurnipEaterDown]

If the throat is just long and not terribly oversized, cast bullets will still have the ability to shoot fine.

I have a 416 Taylor (458 Win Mag necked to 416) I built on a 98 Mauser. ~3.30" magazine.
The throat from my reamer is so long that loaded to touch lands is ~3.75" on a 0.416" bullet, but with the tight throat, I have to load a 0.417 cast Accurate 360 gr Spitzer GC at 3.139" max to keep the first driving band out of hard contact w/ the throat. Basically, yes this is a long freebore, but tight, so sealed and guided well.
This bullet driven 1900 fps, gives me 5 shot groups at 100 yd w/ cast at slightly over an inch w/ often three touching. No leading.

I have no idea how Ruger cuts 458 WM throats on #1 rifles, but if it isn't tapered (note: not discussing the taper of 2 1/2° or whatever is in the rifling lead, but the throat itself which has no rifling and Ought to be parallel sided), or so large that a interference fit bullet won't allow you to chamber a round, you should be capable of achieving good accuracy.

[Bigslug]

Dimensionally, a .458 is pretty close to the .45-90. For cast bullet purposes, it might be better to think of it that way. Possibly a better choice if you want to launch the really heavy bullets - provided the rate of twist will support them.

If you aren't planning to hunt mastodons, or aren't shooting black powder, there's a good chance you probably don't need and aren't going to use the extra case volume.

Is there a rate of twist difference between the two?

Aside from the extreme top end, you can probably get both guns loaded to perform exactly the same. That's an argument for just choosing the rifle you like better.

[charlie b]

That was my question. What is the twist rate on the .458 and is there any difference in barrel length. I'd go for longer barrel with decent twist for cast.

I'd be interested in hearing about shooting BPCR with the .458 if you go that way.

[Bulliwig]

I don‘t know about the twist rate, but i know the no1 tropical has two inches more in barrel length. 26 instead of 24 maybe? I would rather take 28 if i had the chance, i do love long barrels!

[Nobade]

I have no idea how Ruger cuts 458 WM throats on #1 rifles, but if it isn't tapered (note: not discussing the taper of 2 1/2° or whatever is in the rifling lead, but the throat itself which has no rifling and Ought to be parallel sided), or so large that a interference fit bullet won't allow you to chamber a round, you should be capable of achieving good accuracy.

Here are the drawings. Page 151. They look exactly like the print. Throat starts at .469" and tapers down from there very slowly. It's almost impossible to keep gas from blowing past the bullets at launch.
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Compare it to the 45-70 and 458 Lott.

[stubshaft]

I have a Ruger #1 Tropical in 458 WM and find it is an extremely accurate rifle. I also have 3 Marlin 1895's in 45/70 and can state unequivocally that the recoil from a full-house 458 WM is heavier by far. That being said the 458 can be loaded down to 45/70 levels with no appreciable loss of accuracy (unless you are shooting something like a 250 gr. bullet) although I do not load anything lighter than 350 grain bullets.

[M-Tecs]

I have a #1 & #3 in 45-70. I wanted one in 458 but with the availability of 45-70 brass vs 458 I think I’ll stick with 45-70.

The #3 in 45-70 with near 458 loads is the only rifle I have not fired a second time when offered.

[Bulliwig]

Edit: doubled my previous post

[TurnipEaterDown]

In response to "nobade": Yes, the SAAMI drawing for a 458 WM shows a funnel throat.
I never had occasion to look before, and wasn't trying to solve the OP's question directly, just provide some thought about how to look at what might/might not affect accuracy. My point was that a long throat in and of itself doesn't really preclude good accuracy w/ cast bullets.

(more of a general response)
The funnel shape is generally considered as being poor for cast bullets (at least hard bullets) for the reason that "nobade" suggests: poor gas seal at bullet start due to gross taper, and I personally believe a potential for tipping at engagement, especially of clearance at mouth is near maximum. I myself haven't shot a 458 WM w/ cast, so can't confirm these thought based on experience.
I will say that SAAMI drawings are supposed to be adhered to by manufacturers, but there too it isn't always so. The reason to adhere to the drawings is that deviation from design in implementation can & does affect pressure. Since the 458 WM is a SAAMI standardized commercial cartridge, it wouldn't be expected that Ruger would cut the throat different, but I suppose you'd never know for sure unless you cast it.

I think it'd be a safe bet that the throats on the Ruger rifles would be SAAMI spec, and then looking at throat differences may affect a choice of what is best for a cast bullet in general.
The Lott is a parallel throat by looking at the Drawing. Probably be a good CB cartridge, though it does have a large case volume. It would eat a lot of powder, and max loadings could be unpleasant. Depends on what you like & tolerate.
The 45-70 looks to have what amounts to an extremely abrupt funnel throat: 12 3/4 ° taper from mouth OD to groove over 0.069". Occurs to me to never have brass get long in a 45-70...

[Bulliwig]

I would really like to have the .458, not as if i‘d need it. There is just something about a rare gun in an even more rare chambering (at least in this area), shoving a large cartridge in a long and heavy barrel and shoot a heavy bullet. A no 1 in 450/400 would be even more interesting, but they are unobtainium.
The price of components would not be so bad, as the rifle looks like new and will probably go for around 500€, the 45-70 (including an old scope ) which looks used but cared for will probably be sold for around 1100€.
But there is no point in a rifle which does not shoot accurate with the reduced and cast loads i want to use. And this chamber does look gross for every bullet :groner:

[rockrat]

I would look for a #1c in 45-70. IIRC, it has a heavier "C" weight barrel, like what you would find on a 375 H&H. They are scarce. Wish I would have bought one when available. Been looking for a 458win #1. The 45-70 is just too light for my tastes.
If I find a 458, I plan on loading it like I do my 45-70's for my Pedersoli Sharps. Powder, then 45cal cardboard wad, then polenta or grits as filler to when I seat the boolit, I compress it about 1/8". Kind of like loading Black Powder. Really improved the grouping in my Trapdoor.

[beltfed]

Just a note: The 458 WM lists as a 14 twist. Kind of FAST for cast bullets, especially light/short ones.
the 45-70 , 20 twist, Much more friendly to 300-400 or so grain bullets
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Just a note: The 458 WM lists as a 14 twist. Kind of FAST for cast bullets, especially light/short ones.
the 45-70 , 20 twist, Much more friendly to 300-400 or so grain bullets.
Take it from a guy who rebarrelled a No 1 to 40-72Win, with a 12 twist barrel to shoot BP loads with LONG bullets for long range matches.
It is a BEAR to shoot accurately, what with all the torque.
beltfed/arnie

[45workhorse]

Get the the 458!
I just bought a Ruger No1 in 9.3x74R,talk about an odd round, but dangit, I have wanted a Ruger in an odd cartridge, I think I have accomplished that. Haven't shoot it yet.

[Bulliwig]

Funny, the 45-70 and especially a 458 is a really odd cartridge around here, whereas a 9.3 is one of the most common calibers you can have. The x62 in repeaters and the x74r in combinations.

Edit: the 9.3‘s are really great calibers for what they are and a blast to shoot. If you want it for hunting i‘d recommend the Lapua mega bullet (if not a cast one). My dad shoots this in his x62 with 54 gn (not sure, i have to ask the exact amount) of n135. Not really flat shooting, but a great stopper without much damage or bloodshot meat even when hitting a bone

[Fishman]

Depends on what you want it for. My #1 45-70 is a nice light walking around rifle and is fun to shoot with trapdoor loads and tolerable with Marlin loads. Max loads, well I don't like them. If you are shooting from a bench then the heavier gun in either caliber makes sense.

[Mk42gunner]

I had a No 1S in .45-70 and it was an enjoyable rifle to shoot with factory level or slightly higher loads. If you wanted to get into what I call "Elmer Keith Memorial Loads" on the other hand, it quickly became uncomfortable to shoot. Still accurate, but it would kill cheap scopes fast. I ended up with a 2½X Leupold on it an it was a fine hunting rig.

Never shot a No 3, but I doubt it would be much fun with warmish loads.

For a range toy with authority, the .458 Win Mag might be fun, but it would get heavy if you were carrying it afield.

Robert

[scattershot]

45/70. I have one, and it’s a nice light rifle. The 45/70 was made for cast bullets, and reloading info (and cases) are everywhere. You can load the old “punkin roller” as hot as you care to stand behind, and unless there are mastodons in your neck of the woods, the .458 is just overkill. Nothing wrong with the .458, either, but if I were buying another one, it would be in 45/70.


You mentioned that Number Ones were pretty pricy in your area, what do they go for, if I may ask? They seem to be going up around here, too.

[Bulliwig]

No 1 in „common“ calibers like 30-06 are quite ok, they sell for around 750€. Used .45-70 usuallly run for about 1000€. .458‘s are a lot cheaper, because many people don‘t reload.
1000€ are a lot for an used american made gun, especially for a single shot (living in the country of Suhl, blaser and Mauser seems to let a lot people think guns from other countries are cheap junk)

[725]

I had a Ruger #1 in .458 WM and it was a dandy rifle although heavy to carry around. I bought a reamer (then sold that reamer to one of our fellow castboolit members) and used it to punch out to .458 Lott and that was fun. Shot both great and generally I stayed with about 400 grain +/- weight cast. I have no need to drive either fast and generally stayed around top end trap door loads. Fun gun suitable for hunting around my area. Never did any extreme accuracy stuff so I can't comment in that direction.

[robg]

having shot a friends 458win mag i would get a 45-70(i did) it doesnt kill at both ends.

[bcp]

Handling both, the 45-70 was light and lively. The 458 was like a semi-truck axle.

For carrying, I bought the 45-70 (two over the years). If I was bench shooting, or elephant shooting with a gun bearer, the 458 would be good.

Bruce

[murf205]

Bulliwig, if you are not going to shoot full throttle 458 loads, I cast(pun intended) my vote for the 45/70. I have one with the heavier barrel and a 440gr GC boolit at 1992 fps is about all the fun I can have with my clothes on! It will do over 2000 fps with several loads but my accuracy is in the sub 2k range. If you need more horse power than that, you need a guide as a back up gunner. I will tell you that I actually cannot feel the difference between a full snort 45/70 and a 458 when both are loaded with 400 gr boolits. I love #1 Rugers but the scope mounts bit too far forward with the standard Ruger rings. I wish Leupold still made the long tube 3x scopes. Also the advice about the brass is correct. Finding 458 Win brass could turn into quite a challenge now days. But it's your $, buy what makes you grin.

[eastbank]

296760296761, ruger #1 in 45-70 at 100 yards, ruger #3 in 45-70 at 100 yards. same load 300 hornady at 2000 fps, you don,t need that speed to kill, but it does flatten the bullet drop out past 100 yards.

[skeettx]

I like my Ruger #1 Lyman Centennial 45-70
Longer and heavier barrel
What fun
Mike

[Bulliwig]

Haven‘t decided yet which one to get. But the auctions are still going and we‘ll see. Also saw a high wall in 45-70 for auction with a nice scope. And man, this loooong barrel does look appealing!

[Bulliwig]

Auctions ended but all of them were to Pricey for me. The .458 ended at 1000€, the .45-70 at over 1200€ and the high wall for 1100€.
Found a no1 in 375 h&h, I’ll have a look at that. I think this would also be a nice cast gun.

[rockrat]

My H&H loves cast.

[Bulliwig]

Just want to inform you, I bought the .375 rimless belted nitro Express!
It even has a very nice aftermarket trigger in it. I‘ve seen someone fiddled with the forend already, i found some bedding compound around the tip of the hanger. I first want to test fire it before messing around. Anyone a good idea for a scope?
Afterwards i want to try cast in it.

[TurnipEaterDown]

The best scope is the one that serves your purposes that you can afford. :)

Obvious statements aside, depends on what you want to do with it, as to what suits you best.

Some things should be rather evident: Thick reticles (sp?) help in quick pick up on game, but hamper target shooting, etc.
I would tend to pick something w/ good eye relief, and large exit pupil. I find that by trolling GunBroker I can find older Burris optics on the cheap. They hold up well, have a lifetime warranty (no matter who has owned, and I have made use of the warranty), and have clear glass. Probably someone likes something else better, that's why I said "what suits you best".
Specs aren't usually too hard to find, and are worth reviewing.

[Texas by God]

4198 is a good powder for calming the .375 down so that it is actually fun to shoot.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Bulliwig]

I‘d love to buy 4198 or 3031, but both powders are banned inside the EU:-|

[Bulliwig]

But I‘m pretty sure a .375 is the right medicine for our famous, bulletproof, middle-european 30# roedeers ;)

[beagle]

I've owned both the .45/70 and .458 Win Mag Number 1s.
I have a Marlin M1895 that I bought and it outshot the Ruger so it moved on.
The .458 Win Mag does have a long throat. Looks like the on ramp to the freeway. I found two bullets that it shot well. #462560 and the RCBS 45-500-FN. Both seated out to touch the rifling. The 462560 seated normally would shoot acceptable groups.
My thoughts were like yours. Nice heavy plinker off the bench with a 300 grainer. I didn't get the groups that I anticipated so the .458 Win Mag is gone as well./beagle

[MattOrgan]

Since you landed on the .375 H&H you got a great cast bullet chambering that is quite tolerable with full velocity loads recoil wise and accurate with cast .38/55 loads. My scope choice wanders around quite a bit from 1x4 all the way to a 3x9. My favorite is probably the Leupold 2.5x8. With Nosler 260 grain tipped boat tail bullets it shoots flat enough to use 8x and more. Should be adequate for your deer at any range.

[crash87]

I read a few posts to your rather torrid dilemma, a few of my thoughts on the matter. (BTW I feel your pain, been through it to many times)
I once owned a No1 in 416 Rigby, my late hunting partner had one in 458 Win Mag. I reloaded and shot loads for my buddy's rifle, from whitetail deer to moose & Bison loads. Yes we procured all the above.
The heavy barrel is meant to soak up recoil, I guess, but the stock design is not. What you basically have is a muzzle heavy No.1. Kind of awkward to carry, imho. I sold my 416 as I purchased a bolt gun and to replace the Tropical. I acquired a No.1S in 9.3X74 to replace the 416. All qualms about recoil aside, that No.1S, which is the same model as the 45/70 is a nicer gun to carry than the muzzle heavy Tropical.
If you don't want the power of the 458, then look at the model of the rifle in question not the power level.
I think if you were to handle both of them, you would see what I mean.
crash87