How short to cut barrel?

[Bluerock2000]

Just looking for some opinions on this. If I’m in the wrong forum let me know and I’ll move it.

I currently have a single shot 44 mag carbine that pushes a 350 grain, 11 bhn boolit to an average 1067 fps using 11 grains of 2400. I just bought the same gun but with a pistol grip and 14” barrel. I want to cut the barrel down as short as possible to keep overall length to a minimum with an attached suppressor. I’d like to keep the velocity the same and the bhn at 11. If cast softer, accuracy deteriorates (especially with faster powders,) and when cast harder the HP doesn’t perform optimally.

I have an assortment of pistol powders throughout the burn rate scale. My concern is that, with increased pressure, the soft heavy boolit may not perform, especially if I have to move to a faster powder to accommodate the shortened barrel.

Thoughts?

Brady

[MrWolf]

Wouldn't you be subject to the 16" limit without registering as a SBR?

[Winger Ed.]

I'd first check into what the current laws are now days for the ATF's regulations and definitions are for
what they consider a rifle and a pistol.

Since it may be the one thing left in the US that law enforcement is prosecuting:
You may or may not want to just start chopping on your barrel until ya check up on the legalities of it.

[Bluerock2000]

Wouldn't you be subject to the 16" limit without registering as a SBR?

Apologies, I should have been more clear. I just purchased the CVA Scout V2 pistol with a pistol grip and 14” barrel. I’d like to cut the 14” barrel down. I have had for some time the CVA Hunter carbine, which has the same action and a 16”barrel with the same twist rate and what I have developed the load and bullet for. It is a suppressed terror on game animals, which is why I’d like to mimic the load in the pistol.

[ohen cepel]

Does your suppressor maker have a limit on how short the barrel can be for a 44? If not, check this site as it will give you an idea of how much you'll lose per inch; http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

[Bluerock2000]

Does your suppressor maker have a limit on how short the barrel can be for a 44? If not, check this site as it will give you an idea of how much you'll lose per inch; http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html
I spoke with the manufacturer and no limit on length. Thanks for the link, it’s helpful. It goes along with my suspicions, that I can probably make a 6” barrel work but not sure about much shorter than that.

[Mal Paso]

You will have to increase the 2400 to get it to burn right and maintain speed. You are getting a lot of mileage out of 11 grains of 2400. I had inconsistent burns at 14g in a 6 inch revolver pushing 260g with some batches of 2400.

[nhyrum]

I wouldn’t go shorter than 8” personally


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[megasupermagnum]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are asking what barrel length would be as short as possible, and maintain the same velocity. I'm kind of confused why are are using such a wimpy load as it is. I can understand wanting sub-sonic if you are going to a suppressor, but you could be running those a lot faster. I shoot a 350gr bullet in 44 magnum, and it is made such as to allow as much bullet outside of the case as possible in a revolver. I do not know what your bullet is like. Since you have a single shot, you could have a really long nose on your bullet if you wanted. You aren't asking a lot of the cartridge, and you would have no problems at all reaching 1050 fps even with a 6 1/2" barrel, which is about even with a fore end on a TC Contender. It looks like your CVA fore end is even longer. I'd say whatever length your fore end is, plus 1" is as short as I would go for your purposes. Probably around an 8" barrel.

[cwtebay]

I see that you spoke with your suppressor manufacturer, did you ask about ideal barrel length for your particular model with that caliber and what you are wishing to do? If not, I would strongly advise that. Baffle engineering is an oft overlooked part of ordering and running a suppressor. I hate the pay and wait part, and wouldn't want to be left with what can essentially be an expensive muzzle extension.

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[wv109323]

You need to chronograph your load in the pistol as it is now. The velocity may be close to the same. The amount you can cut off will depend upon which quick powder you use. I would try to find someone with a 10"T/C Contender to check my loads in. Also revolvers with shorter barrels may give you an idea as to how quicker powders will perform.

[lar45]

Hi BlueRock, sounds like an interesting project you've got going.
Are the Actions the same on the rifle and pistol? Can you swap the barrels back and forth like a TC?
Just curious, I've been looking at them for awhile, just haven't taken the jump yet. They are supposed to have Bargerra barrels, so the accuracy is supposed to be good.

On to your questions...
It seems that your 11gn of 2400 is running at a pretty low pressure. How consistent is the velocity spread on your loads?
My thoughts are that going with a faster powder would give you a quicker pressure spike, but would also give you less pressure at the muzzle. Wouldn't that help to make it quieter?
Also going with a faster powder would mean that there would be a lower volume of gas for the suppressor to deal with, which might make the end result even quieter.
Running a faster powder at higher pressure should make it burn cleaner which should help to keep your suppressor clean on the inside.
The ballistician at RamShot told me that they tested A#2 in large cases and it gave very consistent velocities and did not seem to be position sensitive. If you have some on hand, it might be worth a try.
As for the Barrel Length, I think that I would cut it to whatever felt comfortable. Maybe as was suggested above, but it to the end of the forend plus an inch for threads.
What is the forend made of? could it be cut and reshaped for a shorter barrel? If not, could it be opened up to accomodate the diameter of the can?
Take pics and keep us posted.

[MT Gianni]

Talk to someone who has shot a 14" 44 mag contender and a 10 " 44 mag contender before you cut. The 10" are hard to sell and described as Beasts. The 14" are pussycats.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I ran a number of (non scientificly rigerous) 44 magnum bullet velocity tests over the years.
There are a number of incinsistencies here, that reduce the value of the tests, and I only wrote down some of them, while others were entertainment at the time and left to memory.
There are Good barrel length versus velocity tests, and some I know about were from Phil Sharpe (old writings, and reprinted maybe 10 years ago in Handloader) where he took a 30-06 service rifle and cut it back inch by inch to I think 12", some done by Art Alphin and published in the A Square manual "Any Shot you want", and soem good stuff at http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/.

Much of what I found was, in revolvers, barrel length doesn't matter too much within practical barrel length changes.
A friend and I ran some impromptu tests w/ 310 LEE pushed by 22.5 or 23 W296, and I remember my 7.5" Ruger SBH running right about same (maybe 20-50 fps of difference one way or the other) of one of his 8 3/8 S&W 29/629 pistols at 1200 or there about, and his 4" S&W doing ~ 1100 fps. 100 fps of difference can be found gun to gun w/ same barrel length.

For some of the recorded "test data" I have below, remember that the cylinder gap on a revolver is a pressure bleed. A closed breach like a T-C has will add velocity due to trapping the pressure 100% in barrel rather than bleeding off (think of the cylinder gap like a really poorly designed waste gate on a turbo engine...).

Note the 30-06 test. I ran a Lot of rounds through my 30-06 Encore before it went away, and I have to say that I demonstrated to myself that fast powders are Not required when a barrel is cut, and loss w/ this type of expansion ratio is ~ 1% per inch.


305gr LBT LFN GC Buffalo Bore "Heavy 44 mag":
1380 fps, 7.5" Ruger SBH
305gr LBT LFN GC Buffalo Bore "Heavy 44 mag":
1590 fps, 14" T-C
305gr LBT LFN GC Buffalo Bore "Heavy 44 mag":
1660 fps, 20" Marlin

280 gr Mountain, 44 Remington Magnum, My design, BHN 27, W296 25 gr, WLP:
1440 fps in Ruger SBH revolver,
1600 fps Stock 12" TC

260gr LBT WFN GC, 44 Remington Magnum, 20.5 gr WC820:
Stock 12" T-C @ 1500 fps
Stock 14" T-C @ 1500 fps
7.5" Ruger SBH @ 1250 fps

240 gr West Coast plated FMJ, Remington Magnum, 20.5 gr WC820:
7.5" Ruger SBH @ 1220 fps
Stock 14" T-C @ 1440 fps

30-06, 220 gr Nosler Partition, 54 gr IMR4831, Rem 91/2
2260 fps, 15" T-C Encore
2448 fps, 23" sporterized 03 Springfield

[megasupermagnum]

According to the Lyman TC only data, you are looking at about an 80 fps loss going from a 14" to a 10".

[Wolfdog91]

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[Bluerock2000]

Hi BlueRock, sounds like an interesting project you've got going.
Are the Actions the same on the rifle and pistol? Can you swap the barrels back and forth like a TC?
Just curious, I've been looking at them for awhile, just haven't taken the jump yet. They are supposed to have Bargerra barrels, so the accuracy is supposed to be good.

On to your questions...
It seems that your 11gn of 2400 is running at a pretty low pressure. How consistent is the velocity spread on your loads?
My thoughts are that going with a faster powder would give you a quicker pressure spike, but would also give you less pressure at the muzzle. Wouldn't that help to make it quieter?
Also going with a faster powder would mean that there would be a lower volume of gas for the suppressor to deal with, which might make the end result even quieter.
Running a faster powder at higher pressure should make it burn cleaner which should help to keep your suppressor clean on the inside.
The ballistician at RamShot told me that they tested A#2 in large cases and it gave very consistent velocities and did not seem to be position sensitive. If you have some on hand, it might be worth a try.
As for the Barrel Length, I think that I would cut it to whatever felt comfortable. Maybe as was suggested above, but it to the end of the forend plus an inch for threads.
What is the forend made of? could it be cut and reshaped for a shorter barrel? If not, could it be opened up to accomodate the diameter of the can?
Take pics and keep us posted.

Hi lar45, yes it’s a fun project. I spent quite a bit of time and money over several years in research, testing, having a custom mold built and shipped across the country for hollowpointing, acquiring the casting equipment and learning how to cast (no manufacturer’s projectiles were heavy enough if designed to expand at low velocity,) learning how to powder coat, and a host of other things. Making an expander that could expand the brass enough and was long enough to keep the bullet from being swaged down. A ton of research to see if such a heavy boolit would stabilize and how to best launch it without pressure spikes, learning bhn and alloys, etc. I could go on and on. Anyway a few hundred bucks for a pistol that is essentially plug and play into the project at this point is minuscule. So I plan to cut it down as short as I feel comfortable will stabilize the bullet and give reasonable accuracy. I’d like to go as short as 4” if possible but feel confident I can make it work at 6”.

The load of 2400 has an SD of 14.47fps and an ES of 40fps over 7 shots. 11 grains occupies approximately 70% of the remaining case capacity after the boolit is seated. Powder positioning doesn’t seem to affect velocity. The round is very accurate. I have a finger turret Leopold on it and if distance is known exactly can place shots within 2 MOA. With a 50 yard zero, the boolit falls 49” at 200 yds, so it’s quite fun. I can often see it’s flight through the scope.

I agree with you on both points with regard to the fast powder. It is quieter and cleaner. In fact I use Titegroup for the 200 grainers I use. I’ve tried it with the heavier Boolits and while it’s ok, not as accurate as the 2400, possibly due to the 16” barrel and it’s shorter burn. Also possibly due to the softer alloy and the quick pressure spike of the faster powders. Accuracy definitely increased in testing as I moved to slower powders. But it took some time to find a slow enough powder that filled enough of the case. H110 won’t safely download to 1050fps in a 16” barrel. Ironically enough it took me a long time to try 2400, which is probably the oldest bottle of powder in my drawer.

And yes to your question regarding the forend. It’s plastic and will need too be modified or replaced. I’ll likely try my hand at wood carving and make a replacement and potentially a grip to match.

Sorry I missed your initial questions. The pistol is the CVA Scout and the rifle the CVA Hunter. (They discontinued the Hunter model.) I won’t receive the pistol until next week so not sure if it is easily taken down. The Hunter model is not, but is very accurate, especially considering the caliber I’m using. I suspect a more inherently accurate caliber would perform even better.

[Bluerock2000]

I ran a number of (non scientificly rigerous) 44 magnum bullet velocity tests over the years.
There are a number of incinsistencies here, that reduce the value of the tests, and I only wrote down some of them, while others were entertainment at the time and left to memory.
There are Good barrel length versus velocity tests, and some I know about were from Phil Sharpe (old writings, and reprinted maybe 10 years ago in Handloader) where he took a 30-06 service rifle and cut it back inch by inch to I think 12", some done by Art Alphin and published in the A Square manual "Any Shot you want", and soem good stuff at http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/.

Much of what I found was, in revolvers, barrel length doesn't matter too much within practical barrel length changes.
A friend and I ran some impromptu tests w/ 310 LEE pushed by 22.5 or 23 W296, and I remember my 7.5" Ruger SBH running right about same (maybe 20-50 fps of difference one way or the other) of one of his 8 3/8 S&W 29/629 pistols at 1200 or there about, and his 4" S&W doing ~ 1100 fps. 100 fps of difference can be found gun to gun w/ same barrel length.

For some of the recorded "test data" I have below, remember that the cylinder gap on a revolver is a pressure bleed. A closed breach like a T-C has will add velocity due to trapping the pressure 100% in barrel rather than bleeding off (think of the cylinder gap like a really poorly designed waste gate on a turbo engine...).

Note the 30-06 test. I ran a Lot of rounds through my 30-06 Encore before it went away, and I have to say that I demonstrated to myself that fast powders are Not required when a barrel is cut, and loss w/ this type of expansion ratio is ~ 1% per inch.


305gr LBT LFN GC Buffalo Bore "Heavy 44 mag":
1380 fps, 7.5" Ruger SBH
305gr LBT LFN GC Buffalo Bore "Heavy 44 mag":
1590 fps, 14" T-C
305gr LBT LFN GC Buffalo Bore "Heavy 44 mag":
1660 fps, 20" Marlin

280 gr Mountain, 44 Remington Magnum, My design, BHN 27, W296 25 gr, WLP:
1440 fps in Ruger SBH revolver,
1600 fps Stock 12" TC

260gr LBT WFN GC, 44 Remington Magnum, 20.5 gr WC820:
Stock 12" T-C @ 1500 fps
Stock 14" T-C @ 1500 fps
7.5" Ruger SBH @ 1250 fps

240 gr West Coast plated FMJ, Remington Magnum, 20.5 gr WC820:
7.5" Ruger SBH @ 1220 fps
Stock 14" T-C @ 1440 fps

30-06, 220 gr Nosler Partition, 54 gr IMR4831, Rem 91/2
2260 fps, 15" T-C Encore
2448 fps, 23" sporterized 03 Springfield


Thank you for the intel. I’m particularly interested in the data with the H110 and the 4” barrel. I suspect I may end up using H110 in some capacity based on my experience with it in 45 colt, but in a 7.5” barrel. I’m surprised it was able to generate that kind of speed in the 4” gun. That’s promising.

[megasupermagnum]

I'll have to drag out my notes, but a 350gr bullet very long with 21.5gr H110 is right at about 1200 fps with a 5.5" Redhawk. I don't think I would mess with H110 if you are trying for subsonic rounds, even with that heavy of a bullet. For your purposes, I think 2400 powder is a really good choice. Bluedot would be another top choice. IMR 4227 is an often overlooked one too since it usually can't get as high of velocity, but would be a real good choice for you.

[Bluerock2000]

I'll have to drag out my notes, but a 350gr bullet very long with 21.5gr H110 is right at about 1200 fps with a 5.5" Redhawk. I don't think I would mess with H110 if you are trying for subsonic rounds, even with that heavy of a bullet. For your purposes, I think 2400 powder is a really good choice. Bluedot would be another top choice. IMR 4227 is an often overlooked one too since it usually can't get as high of velocity, but would be a real good choice for you.

Agreed on the H110 not being the best choice. My concern is case capacity with the 2400. I’ll be limited to just under 17g without going to a compressed load, which I have no experience with. I believe this will be enough powder or very close to it, and it’s not the end of the world if I only get 950fps. Just have to hold a little higher. It’s also not the end of the world to just cut the barrel to 6” and know for certain I can get to 1050fps. Just have to maneuver another 2” of gun. Obviously I’m a bit of a perfectionist :D.

[Bluerock2000]

Talk to someone who has shot a 14" 44 mag contender and a 10 " 44 mag contender before you cut. The 10" are hard to sell and described as Beasts. The 14" are pussycats.

Yes I’ve read this and don’t doubt it. Bear in mind I’ll be adding an 8”, 1lb suppressor on the end, so that should tame it down some. I also anticipate shooting 200g Boolits for fun and the 350g HP’s for business.

[megasupermagnum]

I've never tried the Contender, but a 10" Encore in 44 magnum is no big deal. Not any worse than a similar sized revolver anyway.

[nockhunter]

Cut the barrel just enough to clear the handguard with the suppresser, and find a Bluedot load that shoots well. Crush some deer next season.

Mike

[charlie b]

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He is working with a single shot pistol.