303 brit. loads.

[Hootmix]

New to loading GC ammo. I will be loading w/a # 311291 w/GC, for a friends 303 Brit., have looked & read several articles on said subject, but the brass OAL & loaded OAL changed w/ each article. Using a LEE 2 die set, (had to make an expander die for .312), any help on the loaded OAL would be appreciated. These will be lubed (thinking about PC'ing the next batch). Don't think i should load the GCs below the neck (yes or no)?:veryconfu


coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[Winger Ed.]

I load .30 cal. with Hornady checks below the neck/shoulder with no issues.
Of the ones I've found later in the dirt, it was still on them.

Of the different lengths you see recommended, all of them will probably work.
I'd get one that fits the chamber 'comfortably' and go with that.
If a length is a little short, you might give up some accuracy, but you won't shoot your eye out kid.

[Hootmix]

LMAO, i like that, the kid part, thanks Winger. [smilie=l:

spill't my coffee, Hootmix.

[longbow]

If you are loading for a Lee Enfield using a 311291 is not likely to give very good accuracy unless it casts oversize so can be sized to 0.314+.

Most Lee Enfields have groove diameters considerably larger than the nominal 0.311"/0.312".

I have 5 Lee Enfields and all have groove diameters of 0.314" +/- a thou. A Lyman 314299 that cast at 0.313" wasn't big enough and accuracy was poor.

I bought the NOE 316299 that casts at 0.316". I gas check and size 0.315". That shoots well for me using moderate loads. When I pushed loads for higher velocity I got skidding and gas cutting using ACWW so went to oven heat treating and the harder boolits worked.

Longbow

[iron brigade]

Exactly what longbow said! You need a bigger boolit. I use the noe 316299 in my Enfield rifles.

[Adam Helmer]

I have many .303 arms and all shoot cast boolits very well. As for OAL, let your rifle "tell" you the correct length for each boolit in each individual rifle. Each rifle will also "tell" you the proper amount of resizing of each case to extend case life.

Adam

[Hootmix]

Thank you "all", keep'm coming. I am amazed, different folks from many different parts of "OUR" country visiting like were next door, or at the coffee shop,,, just cool.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[Hootmix]

Had my friend bring his 2 303's over for me to mike, #1 mic. at .309-.310 w/ new barrel, #2 older mic. at .314-.315. May have to swap my 311248 (.312) if, #2 don't shoot good, only one way to find out, maybe by this next weekend.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[brassrat]

Not having a mold, I rely on a gunstore that has a guy who makes him boolets. Luckily he make .303 at .314 and work great with no shortages.

[Outpost75]

Longbow gave you good advice. Great majority of .303 rifles I have done pound-cast of for people needed bullets of .315 diameter. Only a new rifle without throat wear from shooting MkVII Cordite ammunition can use .314 bullets.

The NOE clone of 316299 is best in most rifles. If you have a fixed powder measure rotor to meter 38-40 grains of black powder for your .44-40 Cowboy loads this will also meter 28 -30 grains of common extruded tubular military rifle powder such as 4198, 3031, 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget which all produce satisfactory full-charge loads with the #316299 gaschecked bullet when cast of 50-50 backstop scrap and linotype or 92-6-2 Pb-Sb-Sn hardball alloy.

Loosely poke a 1-inch Square of quarter inch thick Dacron quilt batting into the case neck. NOT pushed down against the powder. Then apply a pea-sized dab of white lithium grease over the Dacron fill before seating the bullet. Better accuracy than military ball ammo, generally shoots to sights at 100 yards with the 2-leg Mk2 battlesight set to 300 yards and good to go at 200 yards with the battlesight leaf on the No.4 flipped to 500 yards.

Velocity is about 2200 fps with #4198 and slower with the slower powders, about 2000 fps with 4064, and somewhere between with the others. These same charges can be used with the NOE .316 diameter clone of the Lee .311-155-2R

Enjoy your .303

[Eddie1971]

I have a #1 SMLE from 1916 that has seen some use with cordite. The NOE 316-299 is the way to go for Lee's with used bores. I PC and GC mine, size to .315 and use over 36 grains of IMR4350 and is shoots same as it does with FMJ which is great. I also have a pristine #4 made in 1948 that was in the wrapper when i got it. The bore is pristine and I use NOE's 312-299 that is GC and PC as well and size to .314. .303 seems to do well with cast!

[Hootmix]

Well, i'm 1 step closer to loading GC bullets (ta da), made 2 GC die sets, (per the inst. on here) both make alum. (.014+- heat& air duct annealed) GCs. Then had to make a size& lube die .310 (+-), and it crimps GCs on tight, now to make a top punch to fit my 311291, then the 311248. (Life is good).

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[Whole Bunches]

I have five .303's. I use the Lyman 314299 sized .314, #2 alloy, and lubed with NRA 50/50 formula lube in all of them. They come out at 200gr. I use an oal of 3.08" with that boolit in .303 rifles. All my bores are bright shiny, but have only measured one and it was .314" groove diameter with a .303 + a smidgeon more bore diameter (I measured that one cause the front part of my 314299 slipped into the muzzle end rather easily so I tried shooting my 314299 anyway and it shot fine). All my loads are in the 1650-1750fps range...that's all I need for my shooting. Not a spec of leading and fine accuracy. I use 7383 in 3 of them, IMR4198 in 1, and AA2200 in 1. Actually all of them love 7383, but I'm trying to make the supply of my lot last. Alliant 2400 shoots nice groups in the one I tried it in, but not to where the sights were aimed (Martini-Enfield single shot). Since its sights are fixed for windage, I had to use a powder/load that shot on for windage, thus the use of 7383 in my Martini.

As far as oal with the bullets you will be using, make a dummy round with the bullet sticking out as far as the magazine will barely hold. Gently close the bolt on the dummy round. If the dummy is too long, seat the bullet about .005" shorter and try again, etc, until you can close the bolt without the bullet jamming into the rifling or end of chamber...that will be the max oal with that bullet, rifle, and magazine. Tweak oal for accuracy if needed. You will note that my oal with my bullet at 3.08" is a touch longer than the oal listed of 3.075" in some manuals.

I Lee collet die size only the case neck. I do not M-die or Lee tool expand the case neck for the cast boolits. I do, however, inside deburr the case mouth after every neck sizing operation so as to allow the boolit to enter with minimal to no scraping. I do not crimp the case mouth.

Not on my .303, but in other cartridges sometimes some of the lube grooves are below the case neck. I've experienced no problems with that. On my 6.5 Swedes some lube grooves are exposed outside the case...again, no problems.

Based upon the size of my cast 311291's with my #2 alloy, I do not recommend that one for use in .303 British cartridges (unless the groove is measured and found to be smaller than typical), as I feel it could be too small in diameter. In fact, in my M1898 Krag and my M1889 Swiss (both of which are suppose to be 30 caliber) the 311291 left lead in the bore at the start of the rifling. The 314299 sized at .314 shot superbly accurate with no leading in both those rifles. That prompted me to slug the Krag and I found its bore at .303 and the groove at .314...one of those "oversize" Krag's that one sometimes hears about. No wonder its bore looked so nice and not worn out...maybe a previous owner(s) couldn't get it to shoot good using 30 cal bullets and gave up shooting it...their loss and my gain.

[Hootmix]

Hey Whole B., do you trim your 303 brass to 2.222. My friend's brass is all new once fired, and i have been trimming & deburring, per Lyman 49th. Edition. At this time i am sizing & lubing but thinking of trying powder coating.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[Whole Bunches]

After I tumble and collet neck size, I do check the length. (Now this is what I do) If over 2.225" I trim to under 2.222". I know 2.225" is over max length published, but it does fine in all my rifles and maybe lets me trim cases less often. At about 2.23-2.24 I can start to feel some chambering snugness and have worked out 2.225 for me. YMMV!

The best advice I can give (as taught to me years ago) is to keep 303 brass separated by rifle and only neck size (full length resizing the piece of brass if you feel a particular case getting hard to chamber ((assuming the case length is ok))). Instead of brass giving out after 2, 3, or 4 reloads with a case head separation, brass goes much longer, finally dying due to neck splits (I don't anneal).

If I luck out and buy some fired brass from a rifle or machine gun off the Internet or at a gunshow, I do full length resize it the first time to avoid chambering difficulties.

[iron brigade]

Here's a few 303 rifles
Lithgow no 1 mk 3
P14
No4 mk1
I also have a Ross
296405
A few boolits for the 303 British
Noe 316299 hi-tek coated and powder coated
Noe 311332
This boolit drops from the mold at .312 but PC increases the diameter to .315
296406
296407

[Hootmix]

HUH-O, think i goofed up. I cast some 311291's SC mould (4# LEE pot w/ dipper), have a therm. (read 700*) in the pot, knob on pot set at 675*- 700* (guess). WW's w/ tin added, bullets filled out very nicely, no frosting. Let them air cool, then mic'd @ .313-.313+, checked several. THEN,i added my GC's, to 3-4 to test and mic'd again (wait for it) they mic'd at .315, think i tried to set the checks to hard (Lyman 450), but man they sure look good. Should i have waited a few days before doing the testing? I also water quenched 12 just to see if they got harder, may be my mix needs a bit more antimony.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[longbow]

If they are 0.315" you may be okay... and lucky! I bought a Lyman 314299 that cast at 0.312"/0.313" with wheelweights and that wasn't enough. I know,... Lyman #2 alloy would cast a thou or so larger but even that wouldn't be enough. My NOE 316299 casts right on 0.316" with ACWW plus its a 4 cavity mould. I gas check then size to 0.315" with very good results.

If you haven't slugged the bore/throat you should as some Lee Enfields are even larger than 0.314" groove. Since I don't have the mic for 5 groove I just measured the throat at 0.315" and as best I could tell groove diameter runs about 0.314". Regardless boolits under 0.314" shoot poorly and lead where boolits of 0.315" to 0.318" chamber, shoot well and don't lead.

I've also had good success using PB boolits with moderate loads and usually a filler but no good results using GC boolits without gas check even for quite light loads. YMMV

Longbow

[Hootmix]

Just watched 1 of your videos. Going to pk-up my friends 2 303's to measure the throats, have some bullets pan lubed. But wanted to make sure before making up any loads. The closest place to me for some powder coating is about 1hr. away (1 way), but i'll get to it. Made a cookie cutter from a 303 case to get the bullets out of the lube, have the GC's already attached. I'm thinking 22.5gns. of H4198 will be a good mid -range load, also have some IMR 3031 & Rl7, (these 3 are what i use for my 40-60 & 44-40's). Thank you for the help.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[brstevns]

Have a MK1 III with a .315 bore, Use a 311284 use PC to bring it up to size. works great. Keeping loads around 2000 fps.

[BadgerShooter]

Any experiences with the P-14 in 303?

[iron brigade]

I checked my notes on my p14..17 grains of 2400 shot real well. Most of my loads were with 6.7 grains of bullseye with a best group of 1 3/8".
All of my shooting is at 100 yards

I was blessed to buy that rifle several years ago at a gun show. Excellent bore and condition.

[screwcutter]

NOE 316299 solved my 303 problems, I size .316 for most.
My 2 P-14s and a No1 barrel get sized .314, as .316 didn’t want to chamber.

[Hootmix]

Finally got some rds. loaded up, headed to range this AM. 303#2 i think will be ok, (USING 311291) CAST @ 314+-, lubed, OAL @ 2.825 303#1 has a replaced barrel, (mic'd.@ .309+-), but don't think the chamber is as long as #2. The same load in #1 shows deep lands marks on the nose of bullets. Don't think i will try to shoot #1, until i cast some .310-311's, and downsize the necks w/ my 30-40 Krag die, ( being careful to not move the shoulder), My LEE dies are for .312, and as cast for #2, seated, I can't push the back into the case against the edge of table, good neck tension.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[Hootmix]

I'm baack, 1st. thanks to all for your help. Cast some 311291's (coww+ tin @ 12-13 BHN pan lubed & GC) .313-.314, loaded w/ 25gn.w/.4 of Dacron filler, using IMR-3031. Added a #1 flip sight to the MK4#1, set @ 250mtrs. + -, 5 shots, 3 touching, other 2 shots just out to right 1", all 6" above POA, but centered (should be good for 100yds), i will load 10rds of same and try again. All shot over chrono.@ 1747-1801, no leading, bore shiny, & seated to 2.820 OAL.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.





coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[gee-gaw]

First off, please forgive me for stepping in on Hootmix’s post. I’ve followed and have questions that could be answered here if you guys would indulge me…

I’m about to try this adventure with my new to me, Long Branch #4 MK1 I have some 155ish cast boolits from Linotype that I’ve Hy-tek coated and gas-checked. I slugged the bore and got a reading of .311, could this be right in view of all the info related here? My boolits are sized to .312 I had to hone out a sizer to get to that and am using .30 Gator gas checks. I purchased once fired cases from a fellow on here, annealed them, and ran them into the FL sizer till they would just allow the bolt to close. I flared the case mouth with a Lyman .30 M-die and plan on loading with a mid burn rate ball powder. I have intentions of using this in a type of competition for old war rifles but want to practice with cast boolits.

My questions are:
Are the .30 Gator checks appropriate?
Have I mis-read the mic when slugging the bore? I know reading a 5 groove slug can be a challenge, though I feel pretty confident that the bore is .311 as read.

This rifle does not show an FTR stamp on the stock or metal. It is date stamped 1944 and has a clean, shiny bore but may need the crown touched up. The wood is in very good condition, though I intend to bed it.
As an aside, I’m in the market for a set of the flip-up sights, if anyone has a set for sale.

Thanks for putting up with me,
Wayne

[Hootmix]

gee-haw, welcome, I like you am also new to loading GC, military ammo, if you can't find the answer you are looking for on this forum,,,,,, it, hasn't been written " YET". Great bunch of folks here. I just ordered a flip-up from Numrich, check with them.
To answer your questions, some of the others will be along (I'm still to green), " they've been their done that".

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[GunnyJohn]

If you are loading for a Lee Enfield using a 311291 is not likely to give very good accuracy unless it casts oversize so can be sized to 0.314+.

Most Lee Enfields have groove diameters considerably larger than the nominal 0.311"/0.312".

I have 5 Lee Enfields and all have groove diameters of 0.314" +/- a thou. A Lyman 314299 that cast at 0.313" wasn't big enough and accuracy was poor.

I bought the NOE 316299 that casts at 0.316". I gas check and size 0.315". That shoots well for me using moderate loads. When I pushed loads for higher velocity I got skidding and gas cutting using ACWW so went to oven heat treating and the harder boolits worked.

Longbow

How are you sizing to .315? I have been looking online for a .315 sizing die and all I can come up with is .314.

[john.k]

Used to be someone on this forum who would hone out any sizing die on a industrial Sunnen hone.

[LAGS]

I bought a Lee push thru sizing die.
It was .312.
I honed it out to .315 using wet and dry sandpaper wrapped on a wooden dowel using light machine oil.
I needed a .315 for my Chinese M 53 Mosin.
The sizer worked very well.

[Whole Bunches]

How are you sizing to .315? I have been looking online for a .315 sizing die and all I can come up with is .314.

I got my .315 from Buffalo Arms…they make custom sizing/lube dies.

[nicholst55]

IIRC, we have a Vendor-Sponsor that makes custom diameter sizing dies for Lyman/RCBS and Star machines.

[BadgerShooter]

One weird thing I have done that "works" in a couple of oversize brits is to leave the bullets as cast - they are about .3135-.314. Just clip on the gas check by hand and hand lube the bullet. I don't seat the gc below the neck (don't know if it would work or not). They have shot excellently. Sized and seated gas check bullets at .314 shoot like a shotgun - hand lubed and hand applied gc and they shoot sub inch at 50 yards. Quirky, but I've repeated it with the same results with bullets from 200 grains to 125 grains.

[screwcutter]

lathesmith made a .316” size die for me, along with other custom sizes.

[Alferd Packer]

Weaned off gas checks.
Paper patch.
Once learned, the only way to go.
I am a cheap so and so.
I always keep bullet base in the neck whether gas check or paper patch.
Why chance it?

[TerkyJerky]

New to loading GC ammo. I will be loading w/a # 311291 w/GC, for a friends 303 Brit., have looked & read several articles on said subject, but the brass OAL & loaded OAL changed w/ each article. Using a LEE 2 die set, (had to make an expander die for .312), any help on the loaded OAL would be appreciated. These will be lubed (thinking about PC'ing the next batch). Don't think i should load the GCs below the neck (yes or no)?:veryconfu


coffee's ready, Hootmix.

the way i figure out COAL is to partially seat the bullet and then chamber the round. if the bullet is long enough, it will contact the lands of the rifling and be pushed back into the case. then, i seat the bullet a few thousandths deeper for some wiggle room. beware if you are using a very soft alloy or you have very tight neck tension, the bullet may engrave in the rifling and be pulled out of the case upon extraction. also, and this should go without saying, load short enough to fit in the magazine lol

[longbow]

GunnyJohn... I just saw this so sorry for late answer. I made my own 0.315" sizing die. As said above most people hone/lap out an available size to get the size they want.

Beagling a mould should work fine too if you can get as cast to the size you want. They'd be slightly oval but balanced so should size going through the throat and into the bore. That is an easy thing to try. It may work, it may not but no cost and little effort to find out.

Longbow

[MOC031]

Have I mis-read the mic when slugging the bore? I know reading a 5 groove slug can be a challenge, though I feel pretty confident that the bore is .311 as read.

A selection of .0005" pin gauges will tell you your bore diameter end to end. For what it's worth, I've had my best luck paying more attention to getting the tightest fit in the led/ball seat along with the OAL of the front of the bullet working with the bore diameter. The rear of the bullet that's in the led/ball seat will magically conform to the groove diameter when the primer goes off.


This rifle does not show an FTR stamp on the stock or metal. It is date stamped 1944 and has a clean, shiny bore but may need the crown touched up. The wood is in very good condition, though I intend to bed it.

If this is a pristine looking No. 4 Mk1* (whose manufacture?), you want to make sure you REALLY want to do modern bedding of the stock. I was up in Alberta at a gun show late last year, and in the country where Lee Enfields are ubiquitous, an un-bubba'd No. 4 Mk1* was generally for sale at around $900. Once bubba'd, about half of that. Not having been through FTR makes it even better.

The Commonwealth nations had a fairly well established procedure for setting these rifles up for Service Rifle Competition well out to the 1000 yard mark, and it didn't involve applications of Acraglass or anything similar. I have .pdf copies of all of that if you wish to PM/Email me; happy to share them with you. Pams for sight settings on the No. 4 sights, sight adjustments, etc are also available online for download i.e. at milsurps.com: mostly Canadian and British pams.


As an aside, I’m in the market for a set of the flip-up sights, if anyone has a set for sale.

Well, if you're REALLY serious about competitively shooting with that rifle... what's it worth to ya?

Is the competition always at one specific distance i.e. 100 or 200 yards, or does it vary?

The least expensive route for a back sight will be the Mk 1, 3, or 4. The Mk 1 was a thumbscrew adjustment that allows you to adjust just above or below the range lines.

The later Mk 3 and 4, the adjustment clicks into a notch at the specific yardage. If you're a bit low or a bit high at that sight setting, well... sucks to be you, deal with it.

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If you're shooting at one specific range, any of them, even the two position Mk 2 will be fine. Just choose a slightly higher front sight than you should have and then dress it down with a file so you have the proper POA/POI for your chosen competition load at that range. There's a guy on EvilBay that makes a very cool cramps for making horizontal adjustments, including the proper screwdriver for backing off the capture screw that holds the front sight in place. I think they're about $30... a steal of a deal when original cramps for these rifles are going for $200 and higher to the collector crowd more interested in collecting all the associated kit than they are with actually shooting the rifles.

If you can't find those rear sights elsewhere, you should be able to find somebody at milsurps.com willing to sell you an adjustable back sight. Be aware that many I have checked with a set of verniers have a meaningful amount of backlash/slop, meaning they are not quit as repeatable as you might assume they are. Good enough for Axis powers in WWII and Chicoms in the Korean War, but not the very best for Service Rifle type competition at range.

And FINALLY, if you want the very best for a drop in adjustable rear sight that uses the same crosspin attachment as the military sight, go find a Parker Hale No. 5 sight with micrometer adjustments for both range and windage. I bought mine back around 1985 for about $50 as I recall, and have been using it ever since. I believe A.J. Parker made a similar sight, but it wasn't quite as easy a drop in swap as the Parker Hale. The last one I saw for sale online, they were asking for almost $600.

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