Flame-cutting rings on SS cylinder face and copper fouling

[Tokarev]

Was looking at a gun to buy but two issues confuse me. The seller claims that he only sighted it in with a couple boxes of 38spcl.

After about how many mostly 38spcl rounds would flame-cutting rings appear on an SS cylinder face of a 357 Redhawk?

Also, what would cause copper fouling on the cylinder end of the bbl between 9:30 and 11:30? Does it mean that the cylinder is out of alignment?

[jaguarxk120]

Is the surface of the cylinder actually cut or is it just
colored from powder gas?

[M-Tecs]

Not sure what you mean by "flame-cutting rings appear on an SS cylinder face"? Flame cutting is normally on the forcing cone and top strap flame cutting. It is actual metal erosion. SS cylinders do show a carbon ring on their face but that is not flame cutting. You see carbon discoloration after a single round. You see it on new guns that have been test fired.

The copper fouling could be a multitude of issues or nothing more than normal copper fouling that will go away after you shoot it some.

[RJM52]

I have never heard the term "flame cutting" in reference to the front of the cylinder, only to the frame over the flashgap... Clean off the front of the cylinder with a brass brush and there is probably nothing there.

If the end of barrel has uneven deposits on it, check the evenness/square of the end of the barrel to the cylinder...if it is out of square it could case what you are describing...

What is the make and model of the gun?

Bob

[Bigslug]

The black rings on the cylinder face get there pretty much immediately without much shooting at all. If you're a total neat freak or maybe selling the gun, you worry about it. Otherwise, ignore and get on with life. Lead Away cloth will make a stainless gun shiny in that area, but the stuff will take bluing OFF.

If you have a pin gauge that's a slip fit through the entire bore (I'm guessing .345" would be about perfect), it would be easy enough to check alignment on all the chambers. I suspect, however, it's just copper streaking. Check the whole circumference closely.

[Tokarev]

The chambers at 6:00 and 7:00 show what I mean. These rings cannot be removed by brushing with Hoppes or Butch Boreshine.
296198

[Thumbcocker]

Hmmmm

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[Led]

That's not flame cutting. That's carbon embedded into the stainless. It's completely normal. You would need some very high grit polishing compound to remove it.

This pic was borrowed from a gunbroker auction. This is what it will look like after extended normal use.

296199


Later,
Stephen

[cwtebay]

I don't think that's flame cutting.
This is my SBH stainless, and it is a durty sumf a buck to scrub off completely - but I think there's of little consequences other than cosmetic.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220213/6cf43fbf2a55b318d3b57202ef0f4ab3.jpg

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[DougGuy]

It's merely cosmetic. As far as copper shaving well, just shoot cast! :bigsmyl2:

[Carrier]

If you are wanting to caress this revolver everyday then gently put back in the safe then maybe not for you. However if you are wanting to shoot this revolver then my suggestion is to learn to live with the ring. I tried every chemical, polish etc know to man and countless hours cleaning “the ring” especially from my stainless revolvers and finally came to my senses.
A quick scrubbing with a nylon or brass brush with whatever solvent you use removes any carbon that may interfere with operation of revolver.
You’ll be happier in the long run.

[Electrod47]

Its merely cosmetic. I shoot big bore stainless single actions and a double action. I hate the black rings too. I have some electricians square rubber, diamond impregnated squares that look like long erasures. They are used for cleaning electrical contacts. They clean that stuff off in 2 shakes and your guns no worse off for wear. Got mine in the 1980's but should still be around.

[cwtebay]

This is after cleaning with hot water and stainless steel cleaner and roughly 3 minutes using a dental polisher and ultrafine prophy paste.
So it can be cleaned up, but is very quick to return with firing. In my experience, shooting 44 Special or 44 Russian seems to make this worse in this particular revolver. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220213/b6bb100eab374fae887530a75e40e932.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220213/4f974efb376f0709a4c201f8f39d9f18.jpg

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[Tokarev]

The rings do not bother me. I was only wondering how quickly they appear. Since all of you tell me that they appear very quickly, it's a non-issue, and this gun will soon be mine. Thinking that any chamber alignment issue would be fixed by Ruger if I approach them.

Thanks everyone! Always happy to learn something new.

[super6]

From your pics, Those look like mill marks. Either from ruger or someone trying to open it up. Either way bubba was there.

[Thumbcocker]

From your pics, Those look like mill marks. Either from ruger or someone trying to open it up. Either way bubba was there.Yup something gouged those cylinder mouths. I have magnum revolvers with thousands of full house loads through them and haven't seen anything like that.

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[Tokarev]

From your pics, Those look like mill marks. Either from ruger or someone trying to open it up. Either way bubba was there.

Are you replying to me or to other commenters?

[M-Tecs]

The chambers at 6:00 and 7:00 show what I mean. These rings cannot be removed by brushing with Hoppes or Butch Boreshine.
296198

That is not normal and not something I have ever seen. Can you feel the grooves with your fingernail?

[DougGuy]

OP when you get your revolver, you can always send the cylinder and have it pinned out to learn throat diameters, and examined for Bubba's fingerprints, wallowed out throats, belled throats, etc..

If you think the forcing cone may be improved on, you can rent the cutter kit from 4D rentals and they have a VERY well done video showing how to mount and use the tool.

However you would want to wait until you make sure either it does need to go back to Ruger or it doesn't need to go back, because anything they find that has been modified, they will change it back to factory specs, which means any custom work that has been done will be undone in short order..

[Tokarev]

Can you feel the grooves with your fingernail?
They feel no different than the areas outside of them.

I also feeler gauged the cyl gap and found it to be less than 2 thou. Is that common? I thought that today 10 thou is par for the game.

[cwtebay]

OP when you get your revolver, you can always send the cylinder and have it pinned out to learn throat diameters, and examined for Bubba's fingerprints, wallowed out throats, belled throats, etc..

If you think the forcing cone may be improved on, you can rent the cutter kit from 4D rentals and they have a VERY well done video showing how to mount and use the tool.

However you would want to wait until you make sure either it does need to go back to Ruger or it doesn't need to go back, because anything they find that has been modified, they will change it back to factory specs, which means any custom work that has been done will be undone in short order..That's really good advice! I didn't realize that about them resetting it back.

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[Led]

The OP's photo of the cylinder is somewhat out of focus and shows visible camera shake. What some are blaming on bubba is actually issues with the photo.

[Forrest r]

This is what I've used on ss firearms for decades.
https://i.imgur.com/x4fqbHJ.jpg

Takes those carbon rings/buildup off of the face of the cylinders with ease

[John Taylor]

Don't think there is a problem there. Flame cutting is just that and usually a cut in the top strap of a revolver. This is one of the reasons Ruger stopped making the revolver in 357 max. A lot of the S&Ws were relieved in the top strap above the end of the cylinder to keep it from getting cut. I have seen flame cutting on a black powder pistol that was deep enough that a finger nail would catch in it. Cylinder gap on most wheel guns is about .006" but Ruger 357 max was about .0015" and most black powder pistols are about .006 to .010. If the gap is to tight sometimes the cylinder will drag making the hammer hard to pull back or hard trigger pull on double actions.

[Tokarev]

John:

I hoped you would pitch in!

[stubshaft]

Yup, looks like Bubba was praktising again. BTW - Flitz will get rid of those black rings easily.

[cwtebay]

Don't think there is a problem there. Flame cutting is just that and usually a cut in the top strap of a revolver. This is one of the reasons Ruger stopped making the revolver in 357 max. A lot of the S&Ws were relieved in the top strap above the end of the cylinder to keep it from getting cut. I have seen flame cutting on a black powder pistol that was deep enough that a finger nail would catch in it. Cylinder gap on most wheel guns is about .006" but Ruger 357 max was about .0015" and most black powder pistols are about .006 to .010. If the gap is to tight sometimes the cylinder will drag making the hammer hard to pull back or hard trigger pull on double actions.John, is there any way to stop the gas cutting in a 357 maximum? An acquaintance has a 1983 model SBH that he refuses to shoot because of the reviews. The revolver intrigues me.

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[M-Tecs]

John, is there any way to stop the gas cutting in a 357 maximum? An acquaintance has a 1983 model SBH that he refuses to shoot because of the reviews. The revolver intrigues me.

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https://flicense.blogspot.com/2014/10/flame-cutting-on-revolver-top-strap.html

S&W used a replaceable shield on the 460 to deal with this. I think they do it on a couple of others.

[cwtebay]

https://flicense.blogspot.com/2014/10/flame-cutting-on-revolver-top-strap.html

S&W used a replaceable insert shim on the 460 to deal with this.I have seen that, and see it's present on my 460. Mostly curious about the RSBH.

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[M-Tecs]

I have seen that, and see it's present on my 460. Mostly curious about the RSBH.

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If it was mine I would just use feeler stock similar to the pics in the link but I would just glue it in place with Loctite 680

[P Flados]

John, is there any way to stop the gas cutting in a 357 maximum? An acquaintance has a 1983 model SBH that he refuses to shoot because of the reviews. The revolver intrigues me.

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The top strap cutting is much less of an issue than made out by a few gun writers.

I purchased a Dan Wesson 357 Max new and used it for lots of IHMSA shooting. The top strap showed a small groove pretty quick. After many decades of shooting it is still just a small groove that does not worry me at all.

If he will sell it, I would not hesitate to recommend purchasing the gun and shooting it. Running full power loads under 158 grs is not recommended as they are worse for top strap / forcing cone cutting / erosion.

[Tokarev]

So after all I bought the gun and found it in pristine order other than those rings.
It is the updated sleeved version, and I read everything here but could not understand a thing: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/08/upgraded-sleeved-barrel-ruger-redhawks-look-to-improve-accuracy/
What makes a sleeved version more accurate than a solid-barrel one?

Tried speedloaders with it and found them problematic, with the stock grip that is in the way. Even moon clips that it came with still interfere with the grips.

Otherwise it fits like a glove.

[contender1]

As it's already determined,, the gun only has a carbon ring on the cylinder mouths,, and can be cleaned by a few different methods.

The cylinder gap of .002 is nice as long as it doesn't bind the revolver.

Moon clips,, in a .38/.357,,, WHY?

A sleeved bbl can be assembled to tighter tolerances than properly timing a solid barrel much easier,, faster,, and cheaper. But it's a proven platform,, (think Dan Wesson's here.)

Now,, on to a side comment;
"John, is there any way to stop the gas cutting in a 357 maximum? An acquaintance has a 1983 model SBH that he refuses to shoot because of the reviews. The revolver intrigues me."

I'm not John,,, but the issue of "top strap flame cutting" in the Ruger .357 Maximums was blown way out of proportion back when it came out. Apparently,, some "experts" tried to use light bullets,,, and get ultra fast velocities and used a faster burning powder. That caused a small amount of top strap flame cutting. BUT,, it stops fairly quickly.
A gentleman named David Bradshaw wrote an article for Guns & Ammo,, back when,, and the gun was put through a LOT of testing. David used a lot of barrels, loads & such. David was also a silhouette champion,,, that helped Ruger develop that gun & caliber. It was decided to use HEAVIER bullets,,, small rifle primers,, and a bit slower powders than many might consider.
David is still around,, and just a few years ago,, he helped design a bullet just for the .357 Maxi. And yes,, it's a CAST bullet. It casts at about 194-195 grns in weight,, and is a SWEET shooting design.
So,,if you can find a .357 Maxi,, like to cast,, and want to see a truly good long range handgun,, then get it. Then,, see about the "Martin/Bradshaw" cast bullet mold.
Side note; I own a Maxi & I shoot the Martin/Bradshaw bullet,, and it's great. And no,, I'm NOT worried about ANY of the crap of top strap flame cutting.

[cwtebay]

As it's already determined,, the gun only has a carbon ring on the cylinder mouths,, and can be cleaned by a few different methods.

The cylinder gap of .002 is nice as long as it doesn't bind the revolver.

Moon clips,, in a .38/.357,,, WHY?

A sleeved bbl can be assembled to tighter tolerances than properly timing a solid barrel much easier,, faster,, and cheaper. But it's a proven platform,, (think Dan Wesson's here.)

Now,, on to a side comment;
"John, is there any way to stop the gas cutting in a 357 maximum? An acquaintance has a 1983 model SBH that he refuses to shoot because of the reviews. The revolver intrigues me."

I'm not John,,, but the issue of "top strap flame cutting" in the Ruger .357 Maximums was blown way out of proportion back when it came out. Apparently,, some "experts" tried to use light bullets,,, and get ultra fast velocities and used a faster burning powder. That caused a small amount of top strap flame cutting. BUT,, it stops fairly quickly.
A gentleman named David Bradshaw wrote an article for Guns & Ammo,, back when,, and the gun was put through a LOT of testing. David used a lot of barrels, loads & such. David was also a silhouette champion,,, that helped Ruger develop that gun & caliber. It was decided to use HEAVIER bullets,,, small rifle primers,, and a bit slower powders than many might consider.
David is still around,, and just a few years ago,, he helped design a bullet just for the .357 Maxi. And yes,, it's a CAST bullet. It casts at about 194-195 grns in weight,, and is a SWEET shooting design.
So,,if you can find a .357 Maxi,, like to cast,, and want to see a truly good long range handgun,, then get it. Then,, see about the "Martin/Bradshaw" cast bullet mold.
Side note; I own a Maxi & I shoot the Martin/Bradshaw bullet,, and it's great. And no,, I'm NOT worried about ANY of the crap of top strap flame cutting.Thank you for the advice! Now to get to shmoozing him out of that safe queen!!l

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[P Flados]

Thank you for the advice! Now to get to shmoozing him out of that safe queen!!l

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Good luck. If only I had known what was going to happen when I got my Dan Wesson. I would have bought both guns, the Dan Wesson in 41 SM and the Ruger in 357 Max.

[Sasquatch-1]

Moon clips,, in a .38/.357,,, WHY?



If you are shooting anything that requires fast reloading moon clips hold the ammo firmer then speed loaders and make the reload easier and faster.

[contender1]

"Thank you for the advice! Now to get to shmoozing him out of that safe queen!!l'

If you get it & need any more info or such,, PM me & I can put onto a LOT of info on the Maxi's. I know a Ruger collector who specializes in them,, and I also know David.

"If you are shooting anything that requires fast reloading moon clips hold the ammo firmer then speed loaders and make the reload easier and faster. "

I fully understand the why OF moon clips,, as I have a GP_100 MC in 10mm I use in competition. But his gun is a Redhawk in 357. Speed reloading for that gun isn't a common thing. I've only ever seen (1) Redhawk in USPSA competition,, and it was in 45 Colt.
Now,, I haven't been to any ICORE matches,, so MAYBE that's where he's using them. But in general,, not many folks use moons in a .357.

[Tokarev]

I do not compete. All of my guns are for the protection of my own life in case SHTF. Now, flame on :)

One other thing I am curious about is tight chambers. I did not seat any bullets yet but sized cases already are very tight, and a .356-367 bullet would further bulge them, so they will be even tighter. Are new model 357 Redhawks known for tight chambers in the ballpark of .374"? Is it normal?

[contender1]

Have you take a set of pin gauges to your chambers yet,, to see what they measure? Sometimes,, handloading dies do NOT properly size a case.

Pin gauge your chambers,, then measure the OD of a sized case. That may help explain the tightness. THEN,, if necessary,, maybe a trip to DougGuy for the cylinder,, and he can hone it to whatever specs you need,,, IF,, IF,, it's needed.

Ok, on you using your gun for self protection in case the SHTF. Fine. But since you don't compete,, I do wonder why moon clips for a .38/.357 revolver. I own a 6 shot Redhawk,, and have never felt the need for moons in one of them. I do use moons in revolvers built around rimless calibers. Just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

[contender1]

Have you take a set of pin gauges to your chambers yet,, to see what they measure? Sometimes,, handloading dies do NOT properly size a case.

Pin gauge your chambers,, then measure the OD of a sized case. That may help explain the tightness. THEN,, if necessary,, maybe a trip to DougGuy for the cylinder,, and he can hone it to whatever specs you need,,, IF,, IF,, it's needed.

Ok, on you using your gun for self protection in case the SHTF. Fine. But since you don't compete,, I do wonder why moon clips for a .38/.357 revolver. I own a 6 shot Redhawk,, and have never felt the need for moons in one of them. I do use moons in revolvers built around rimless calibers. Just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

[cwtebay]

I kind of like using half or full moon clips, no I don't need them - but I don't need to use the stripper clips for a Model 8 Remington either. Sometimes it's just part of the experience or personal preference.

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[Tokarev]

Have you take a set of pin gauges to your chambers yet,, to see what they measure?
Like I wrote: they measure .374"
My sizing die drops the same diameter cases.

I do wonder why moon clips for a .38/.357 revolver.
I don't know. I do not use them. They come with the gun from Ruger, so I tested them for giggles.

[contender1]

My apologies for the double post. Don't know what happened.

I missed the measurement part,, so my mistake. That said,, the max OD of a .38 spl/.357 case is .379. At .374,, it appears you have a tight chamber. I'd suggest you contact DougGuy & discuss this. His honing work on chambers is EXCELLENT,, and done RIGHT. I see you are in Canada,, so I'm not sure about the laws concerning shipping JUST the cylinder for repair work & how that's go. But,, contact Doug & see what he says.
And if shipping a cylinder isn't an option,, then I'd consider talking to a gunsmith who has the skills & tools to carefully open the chambers a little.

On the moons,, NOW I understand. If Ruger supplied them,, I too would likely try them. But in general,, I prefer to only use moons on rimless calibers,, where speed reloads are a desired thing. OR,, on some guns,, required to shoot them,, such as a 9mm DA revolver.

[John Taylor]

John, is there any way to stop the gas cutting in a 357 maximum? An acquaintance has a 1983 model SBH that he refuses to shoot because of the reviews. The revolver intrigues me.

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The flame cutting on the top straps that I have looked at are not deep enough to cause a problem and I have not seen any that get worse with more shooting. On the black powder revolver that had flame cutting on the top strap also had flame cutting on the cylinder pin. Probably one of the reasons the 1873 Colt used a bushing on the cylinder that went forward of the cylinder.