My M1 Garand cast bullet experiment

[Firehand]

I've been digging into the idea of using cast in my Garand, partly for savings on bullets, mostly for a light practice load. After searching here, decided to give it a try.

I've got a RCBS mold that throws a 150-grain gas-check flat-nose bullet, originally bought for .30-30, that's also worked out nicely in .30-06, .308, 7.5x55 Swiss and in a M39 Finn Mosin Nagant. So, being chea- er, just wanting to see if it'd work in the M1, tried it. The load I started with is that bullet, sized .309, over 34.0 grains of IMR4895. Five rounds of it, five with 35.0, five with 36.0. Five because this was to see if A: that bullet would shoot at all well in it and B: to see if these would cycle the action.

The first round of 34.0 didn't move the bolt back quite far enough to pick up the next cartridge but did eject the empty; the next four functioned fully. The 35 and 36 loads all functioned with no problem. Recoil with all was light, and at 30 yards(indoor range, no time right now for outdoor) came in with 2.5", 1.5" and 2" groups(in that order). All hit about point of aim at that range, but no doubt will have to raise the sight for 50 & 100 yards. And with the first two, the cases all landed about two feet to the right; the .36.0 load tended to eject forward and a touch left.

A very successful experiment overall. Now to load up some more and hit the longer range.

[leadman]

Was thinking last night about using H4895 in my Garand with cast. From your experiment it appears it will work and gives me a starting point.
Did you get any leading in the barrel or gas system?

[clodhopper]

I did the same last summer. Fired about 250 rounds never could get better than 4 minute groups.
Thought it might be time to get the lead out and fired 8 jacketed rounds. A small bead of lead went through the gas port and jammed the op rod.
Soaked it out with shooters choice in a tall skinny olive jar. Mentioned the jamming to a freind and he reccomended some shotgun spray choke cleaner. He said it would remove lead I have not tried it yet.
Plan to try more bullets this spring in the M1. Oven temper vs water dropped.
Bought the wifey a new range and the old one is in the garage now. I can melt bullet lube, temper bullets, and do all kinds of stinky stuff she frowned upon in the past.

[jonk]

Well some of it may be the shooter, and I don't mean to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but consider this...

That average of 2" at 30 yards will equate, all things being equal, to about 6 1/3" at 100 yards. A garand that shot only 6 MOA would not in my mind be doing well. From a bench I can easily group 5" at 200 yards, with jacketed bullets and a good M1 with good muzzle and throat. So 2.5 MOA. Still, not great but better.

Additionally, the powder charges you list probably aren't igniting consistently without filler. I know, I've shot similar loads over a chronograph, albeit from a bolt action. You're right on the border of the point I'd cut out the filler, but you might try some dacron fluff- I bet it helps accuracy with those loads.

Finally, the speed you are going to be at is also going to be right around the 2000 fps mark. Fine for a hard cast properly fit bullet with gas check and good lube but also right at the point that this shooter usually starts getting leading. I know some of you guys blow way past 2000 fps but I've never managed it without going to a very linotype-heavy alloy and I don't want to waste my lino like that.

So for a host of reasons I'd personally keep experimenting; however if you are happy with it, that's what matters. :)

[smokemjoe]

I shoot mine with the piston take out of the gas plug. Run the op. rod by hand.You get better accurtize that way. You may have to float the top wood . A good load is 17 gr. 4759 and will work with bullets 150 gr. up to 220 gr. 40 grs, 4064 and CBE 311215 or 311284 will run the bolt and very accurate load. I have fired over 400 rds. and never lead the gas port hole up.Last year I shot a 90 with 4 xs at 200 yds. in a cast bullet shoot at Wind Hill, One other load that is about like 4895 is AA2495,35 grs. and the RCBS 165 gr. Sil. bullet, Working now on 2- M1Ds to shoot this summer. There is no troubles shooting under 2 in. at 100 yds with a M1 Garand. I have working on cast bullets loads for 6 years now to get a story to write on them. Hope this helps. Joe

[Firehand]

I took it down for cleaning, found one speck on the op-rod head that may have been lead, but if it was it wiped off with a dry patch. None to be seen in the bore, it wiped out with a couple of patches just like after ball.

Jonk, this was from a not-overly-steady rest, and the range had some lights out, so may well have been me. However, that's the same size groups I got with a '03A3 Springfield with a practice load at this range, and from a solid rest at 100 yards that one gives 1.5" groups. This may not work out to give great accuracy at 100, if not I'll try a different- probably heavier- bullet and/or sized .310 or .311 as many have reported good results with.

One big reason for this was a practice load that would reliably work the action and give good accuracy out to 100, for those days I don't have time or the weather is too ratty for the outdoor range. I now know this'll work great for the indoor, I'll find out if it holds up at 100(don't have access to a longer range at this point).

Smokem, thanks for the info.

[Firehand]

Ok, finally was able to hit the 100 yard range. Got about 4-4.5" groups. A lot of the dispersion was vertical, and I'm pretty sure that was at least partly me(glare on the sights, and I need a bigger bull for this nowadays). So I'll make up a few more and, next time I'm out, try it again.

[Firehand]

Ok, finally was able to hit the 100 yard range. Got about 4-4.5" groups. A lot of the dispersion was vertical, and I'm pretty sure that was at least partly me(glare on the sights, and I need a bigger bull for this nowadays). So I'll make up a few more and, next time I'm out, try it again.

And no sign of lead fouling, so that part's ok.

[TAWILDCATT]

I wonder if shooting at short range,that the bullet might not stablize.
If some one uses it in hand charging 13 gr RED DOT with 150/180 gr bullet would work good.my spring field is tack driver with that.soon as it gets warm enuf for these old bones I will be out there with the garand.

[Larry Gibson]

I'd suggest going to a heavier cast bullet and lower velocity to increase accuracy. To funtion the action of the M1 you are having to drive the bullets too fast for best accuracy. Using 175-210 gr bullets works better with 200+ gr bullets being the best. Lyman's 311299 or 314299 are excellent bullets to use in the M1 with 311284 also being a good choice. Over 28-32 gr of 4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler accuracy can be fully what the rifle is capable of. Velocity will be 1800-1950 fps and the action will function reliably. I've used quite a few of those loads and with Javelina lube I got littl to no indication of lead in the gas system.

Larry Gibson

[Firehand]

After reviewing some of the information, I decided to try what Larry suggested: a heavier bullet. And since so many used bullets sized .311, and I've got a Lee mold for .311 gas-check bullets I got for .303 British and 7.62x54r, decided to try it.

Over 35.0 grains of IMR4895, it functioned the action with no problems, and accuracy was good.

Adjusted sights first at 50 yards, eight clicks over the zero for M2 ball put the shots dead on, and also at 100. At 100, the first two shots were about 3-4 inches below point of aim and within an inch of each other. Of the next six, one I pulled to the left; the other five were in a group of a fraction under 1". I'd only loaded two clips worth to try, so I've got more loaded for further testing. Also, if the wind's a lot lower next time, I'll set up the Chrony to get a look at velocity.

I don't know if the first two were my fault or something weird about the load; they were directly beneath the following shots, so no windage problem.

[Larry Gibson]

Firehand

Do chronograph the load. The AV, ES and SD will tell us something, whether it is "weird" or not. I suggest a 10 shot string for better statistical certainty but a 5 shot string is ok.

Larry Gibson

[mto7464]

What alloy are you using?

[DrNick]

Firehand

Do chronograph the load. The AV, ES and SD will tell us something, whether it is "weird" or not. I suggest a 10 shot string for better statistical certainty but a 5 shot string is ok.

Larry Gibson

These are Gaands, right? How about 8 round strings?:kidding:

[zomby woof]

311284 .310" 2500
33.0 Varget
.7 Dacron

[sqlbullet]

I use a Lee 200 grain, Hornady gas checks, sized .310. I have loaded H4831 (BobS Load (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=312730&postcount=15)) as well as Varget, Reloader 15, WC846 and WC872. I now shoot for a velocity of 2000 fps based on this quickload data (http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?12608-cast-bullets-in-a-M1-Garand).

I have had varget loads from 32 grains and up and Reloader 15 loads from 34 grains and up, both stopping about 40 grains.

I generally can match Greek HXP surplus ammo accuracy at 50 yards with cast boolits with any of these powders. The rifles are both 1943 Winchester mix-masters from the CMP, field grade.

[hydraulic]

I use the same Lee bullet as SQL with ACWW. I had a large quanity of the old WWII 4831 and shot it all up, over the years, using 43 grs. Now I have been using 872 and 860 because it's cheap and it shoots well with 46 grs. No fillers. Never have opened up the gas cylinder and have never had a problem with leading.

[Firehand]

Been a while, but finally got off my backside and did some more work on this. Tried several things, and right now I'm looking at this:
82794
HXP cases, 31.5 grains IMR4895, 200-grain gas-check bullet from a LEE mold, at 50 yards. Had several different combinations, this one worked the best.

Range was BUSY, so wasn't able to set up the Chrony. This load cycled the action about half the time- the last 4-5 rounds, better than the others- and shows no sign of fouling in the bore or gas cylinder. I'm going to up it 0.5 grain, I think that should give reliable functioning, and next time I should be able to try it at 100 yards.

[Lead Fred]

You can still get 500 147gr boat tails for $100
I just cant see chancing damaging a Garand

[BruceB]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

-low chamber pressure...

-low gas-port pressure...

-softer-than-issue bullet metal...

Exactly HOW do you envision these factors "damaging a Garand"?

Many, many of us have been using cast bullets with perfect safety and satisfaction in our Garands for years. "Safety", meaning safety both for the shooters AND the rifles, in the full knowledge that the rifle design has a few peculiarities which must be allowed-for in the ammunition.

If one decides NOT to use cast bullets in his Garand, that's well and good.... but he's missing-out on some very entertaining shooting (and interesting handloading, too.)

[Jupiter7]

BruceB,

This is when you should insert your load at the bottom :)

Many, including myself have found it to be quite accurate, even in my well worn service grades.

[Ithaca Gunner]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

-low chamber pressure...

-low gas-port pressure...

-softer-than-issue bullet metal...

Exactly HOW do you envision these factors "damaging a Garand"?

Many, many of us have been using cast bullets with perfect safety and satisfaction in our Garands for years. "Safety", meaning safety both for the shooters AND the rifles, in the full knowledge that the rifle design has a few peculiarities which must be allowed-for in the ammunition.

If one decides NOT to use cast bullets in his Garand, that's well and good.... but he's missing-out on some very entertaining shooting (and interesting handloading, too.)

And as an added bonus, with cast loads, my Garand stacks the empties in a nice neat pile...Something it does not do when shooting jacketed bullets!

[ballistim]

And as an added bonus, with cast loads, my Garand stacks the empties in a nice neat pile...Something it does not do when shooting jacketed bullets!

I use the Schuster DCM adjustable gas plug on my Garands & have only used j reloads so far, but it works great at not only protecting the op rod but can be adjusted so that empties are tossed in the same place nearby, usually about 2:00 to 3:00. I also can adjust it to be single shot which is useful at times. Next up is to reload boolits from the NOE 311365 mold I recently bought, but casting and reloading for hunting season has gotten in the way so far. BTW just noticed the Schuster DCM plug is now shown as legal for Service Rifle (CMP #4-13-2-b) but not As-Issued per Midway product/technical information. I asked at the CMP maintenance class in August about it being legal and the instructor thought there shouldn't be any reason that it shouldn't be and that it may be made legal in the future. I highly recommend it!

[Firehand]

I know IMR4895 and H4895 are very close in burn rate, according to the charts I've seen H is slightly faster. I think I'm going to try 31.5 of H4895 and see if it cycles the action and gives comparable accuracy.

Fred, I started messing with cast in this rifle for several reasons:
Cost
Ease on shoulder(accident some years back)
Lighter load for the indoor range when can't get to the outdoor
Because I can

I promise, if I'd thought I'd mess the rifle up, I wouldn't have. I've found LOTS of information on cast in the Garand, so don't see any chance of damage long as I do my part.

And one of the things I should've tried sooner was the 200 grain bullet; does indeed give better accuracy. Mongrel alloy; got started casting for general practice and it's always worked well. For bolt rifles of various cartridges I've used the '150-180 grain bullet with 16.0 of 2400' load and had very good results.

[Ithaca Gunner]

You done some good shooting there, Firehand. I'm envious. I've been using the RCBS 30-180-FN in mine with 41gr of IMR 4831, but will try H-4350 because I have a lot of it. The throat in mine is all but gone and it still gives what I call reasonable accuracy at 100yds, 5-6" groups. If I discount the first shot, 3-4".

[mac266]

I came to this web site during my search for info on this very topic! I've been casting for about a decade and have long wanted to try it in my Garand (CMP "Special Grade"), but all the conventional wisdom at the range and on other boards has steered me away from it.

Now it seems I need to add a .30 caliber bullet mould to my arsenal. Thanks for the info, guys!

Has anyone found a load manual that lists loads for cast bullets in the .30-06? All of mine are for jacketed rounds.

[Baja_Traveler]

Been using the 311299 water dropped, lubed with Carnuba Red and 4895 for years with no ill-effect...

83430

But the past several months have switched over to the 311395 when my NOE group buy arrived. I'm really liking the results using it - but I've been concentrating most of my testing using my Mosin Nagant right now. Last weekend I did my first long range shooting with it, and was routinely knocking down the 600 yard Rams on the silhouette range with it using stock iron sights. Next month I'll get the Garand out and see what it can do at ranges longer than 200 yards (I already know it's good 200 yards and closer from shooting the military silhouette matches with it).

83431

[Firehand]

Was able to hit the range today and was able to set up the Chrony: with the Lee 200-grain bullet and 32.0 grains IMR4895 it averaged to 1750 feet per second; slower than I'd expected.

It'll consistently(not always, but mostly) fail to cycle the bolt far enough to pick up the next cartridge on the first round, but cycles completely after that.

Had several times over about sixty rounds that a cartridge rode high and wound up with the nose of the bullet catching on the receiver instead of going into the chamber; always on the left side when it happened. I'd only taken a couple of clips with me, so it's possible it's something about that one. And no, I did not thing to mark it somehow so I'd know which one; just occurred to me that that might be the problem afterward.

It was windy as bleep, so accuracy was not what it probably should be, but with HXP(Greek) and PS(Korean) brass, got nice groups(about 3" at 100 yards, need to actually measure). And the one set I loaded with H4895, well, I think I can forget that powder for this.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I came to this web site during my search for info on this very topic! I've been casting for about a decade and have long wanted to try it in my Garand (CMP "Special Grade"), but all the conventional wisdom at the range and on other boards has steered me away from it.

Now it seems I need to add a .30 caliber bullet mould to my arsenal. Thanks for the info, guys!

Has anyone found a load manual that lists loads for cast bullets in the .30-06? All of mine are for jacketed rounds.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 5th edition is currently the latest and has many loads listed for .30-06, but you won't find any specific for the M1. As far as I know, right here is the best and only information base for loading cast boolits for them.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Was able to hit the range today and was able to set up the Chrony: with the Lee 200-grain bullet and 32.0 grains IMR4895 it averaged to 1750 feet per second; slower than I'd expected.

It'll consistently(not always, but mostly) fail to cycle the bolt far enough to pick up the next cartridge on the first round, but cycles completely after that.

Had several times over about sixty rounds that a cartridge rode high and wound up with the nose of the bullet catching on the receiver instead of going into the chamber; always on the left side when it happened. I'd only taken a couple of clips with me, so it's possible it's something about that one. And no, I did not thing to mark it somehow so I'd know which one; just occurred to me that that might be the problem afterward.

It was windy as bleep, so accuracy was not what it probably should be, but with HXP(Greek) and PS(Korean) brass, got nice groups(about 3" at 100 yards, need to actually measure). And the one set I loaded with H4895, well, I think I can forget that powder for this.

Try a slower powder for your cast loads, (IMR 4831/4350). Start at around 40gr. and work up in .5gr. increments. Mine does it's best so far with 41gr. of IMR 4831 and the RCBS 30-180-FN, but it functions reliably with the Lyman 311299 also. I've been meaning to try approx. the same weight of H4350 as I have much more of it in my powder locker.

I remember reading somewhere to load M1 clips with the top round always on the left, that's the way I load them and I haven't had a failure to feed even when shooting the flat nose RCBS boolit in them.

[Firehand]

Especially with the components situation right now, don't really want to get another powder if I can help it, though may wind up doing so; I've read good things about those for this firearm.

As to the clip loading, now that you mention it I've heard that too; easy to find out if it makes a difference here. Also going to mark some clips, so if only happens with some of them I'll know which ones(same thing I do with magazines).

[Firehand]

Having done some more messing with this, here's what I've settled on:
The Lee 200-grain bullet, sized .311 and lubed with Lyman Black Powder Gold, pushed by 33.0 of IMR4895. Cycles the action reliably, quite accurate enough for a practice load, and shoots cleanly. Out of ~100 rounds using this lube/size I've found no traces of lead fouling in the gas tube or on the piston/rod, just soft powder/lube fouling.

I had been using Lee Liquid Alox for lube, but apparently it's just not cutting it for this use in this rifle; I'd get some fouling build-up on the piston face. So switched lube, and seems to have taken care of the problem.

No, it's not match-accurate; most of the time, neither am I. It's a easy-recoiling load that'll work nicely for general shooting. And the brass-catcher I put together has kept me from losing any brass during this past while, so overall I'm calling this a win.

Added: This rifle likes HXP and PS brass best of all I've tried so far.

[rromano158]

Hello all, I've posted this same message on different threads hoping to get the most knowledgeable info as possible.
I was able to finally get an M1 Garand in my collection. I am wanting to reload cast "boolits" for this particular rifle. I've reloaded for other 30-06 rifles (bolt action and pump action). I have a question about which mold to get. I am looking at the NOE molds 311332, 311365, 311299 or the 312299. Can anyone give me a recommendation for one or another? Would I have feeding issues with round nose cast "boolits (the 311299/312299) versus the spire points (311332/311365)? I planned on using either IMR4898 or H4898 starting at 30 grains and working up. Whatever advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

[Merick]

312299 and don't look back. On another cast bullet page where they post load data from match results the 311299 rules the roost. 312 snugs up the bore riding nose the way it should be.

[Ithaca Gunner]

You'll have no feeding problems with about any .30 mold. I use the RCBS 30-180-FN in mine, a big flat meplate boolit and it feeds fine. If you have a 311299 that would be the first one I would try.

[rromano158]

Okay, so I slugged my barrel today. It came out to .307, I've ordered the NOE 311299 mold. Should I resize to .309 or run it through the .311? I've got both sizing dies for my lubri-sizer.

[GooseGestapo]

FWIW;
I worked up a load for the Lee 200gr .309" RN.
I cast them from W/W air cooled with some 95/5 lead free solder added.
I tumble lube, then seat a Hornady gas check and lube with SPG TO .311" in a Lyman #450 sizer.

I load them in commercial cases sorted, (usually Federal) flaring the necks with a Lyman M die.

Load is 34.5gr H4895, chrono' 2,000fps. 8rds from the '43 Springfield with a no-name match grade barrel runs about 2" at 100yds. Bonus is that it only takes 2 clicks up to zero.

I do seat the bullets out to place base of gc even with base of neck, and crimp with Lee FCD.

They cycle the action like the fine machinery it is.

I worked up this load back in '12-13 when ANY jacketed bullets were unobtainable.

[Scharfschuetze]

Okay, so I slugged my barrel today. It came out to .307, I've ordered the NOE 311299 mold. Should I resize to .309 or run it through the .311? I've got both sizing dies for my lubri-sizer.

Try 10 rounds of each diameter and see what shoots best. My M1s all like cast bullets sized to .310," but those are my rifles, so let your rifle tell you its preference.

By the way, I use a non canister grade of 4895 that burns between 4895 and 4064 so I'm using 36 grains of it for proper function and good accuracy with either the 311334 or the 311299 Lyman designs.

Good luck!

[guicksylver]

I believe the pictures will tell what needs to be said...except the reason the 4th and 5th shots went out was because the target turned into a faded grey mass..(old eyes)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186182&d=1485374104&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186182&d=1485374104)186185

[rromano158]

Okay, I'm having some difficulty is understanding how most everybody else has lower FPS using H4895 than I am having. I worked up my loads using cast bullets from 311299 (NOE) mould, resized to .310, lubed and gas checked starting at 28 grains in 5 shot strings all the way up to 35 grains with and without .8 grains of polyfill. The boolits weighed in with lube and gas check at 208 grains. They all fired, but would not cycle the action until I got to the 35 grains. The 5 shots with the 35 grains cycled the action fine, ejecting the spent case and cycled the next round, but did not lock back or eject the clip. I was using a 5 shot clips, and had to manually eject it. Across my Caldwell Precision Ballistic Chronograph at 15 feet back at 28 grains I was getting an average of 1729 fps with polyfill, and average of 1799 without polyfill. At 35 grains with polyfill I got an average of 2052 fps (minimum 1952 maximum 2107). For some reason only two of the 5 shots of 35 grain loads without polyfill registered showing 2092 and 2132 fps.

I've loaded up more rounds using the regular 8 shot en-bloc clips with 36 grains to 38 grains all with about .4 grains of polyfill as it seems to "slightly" lower the fps.

Do my readings seem a bit high? Should I try a different powder? I have the latest Cast Bullet Handbook, and it is showing results for powders such as IMR-4227, IMR-4198 and Reloader 7, all with velocity fps' below 2000.

Suggestions welcome!

[Scharfschuetze]

Suggestions welcome!

rromano,

M1s, like all rifles can be at least a hundred feet per second plus or minus any other Garand due to bore wear or lack of, exact bore diameter, etc. Function is dependent on gas cylinder diameter as well as the gas piston diameter, gas vent and overall wear of the gun's mechanism. Larger tolerances in your gas system will require more pressure and so on.

I load for four of them, and while they are usually within 50 fps of each other over the chronograph, they all have their idiosyncrasies.

As I posted earlier, I use a non canister powder that is in between 4895 and 4064 in its characteristics. 36 grains is the sweet spot for this powder for accuracy and function, but you should be very close to that weight if you are using either 4895 or 4064. By best accuracy with all of my US service rifles in 30/06 with the Lyman 311299 bullet is between 1,800 and 1,900 fps. It's the bomb in either Springfields or the M1 Garand and it will hold its accuracy to way, way out there on steel or targets of opportunity.

The bottom line with M1 Garands and cast bullets is that your loads may very well be a compromise between function and accuracy. One has to balance one against the other. It's all good though as once you get one shooting with cast bullets you'll have a load that will generally shoot in any of the US designed Ought Six service rifles.

[guicksylver]

Hi Guys....one thing to remember with the 299..depending on who supplies the mold..be it Lyman or NOE..the nose will be of a different diameter..in my M1 I have found that it likes the larger nose (.304)..so if you buy a 299 mold...remember the Lymans can run very small..under .30...NOE molds supply a nose that is specified on their spec. sheet...311299 (.301)..312299(302)...314299 (304)...since this is a bore rider design I would suggest that you determine whether or not the nose has sufficient bearing in your barrel....it will make a huge difference in accuracy.. AND pressure/ velocity...just how accurate is the 299 when everything is matched up?
187457Plain Base Design 299 w/a 304 nose out of My 700 308 VS..this is typical
187458100 yds 03a4 clone ...29 grs H4895- 314299 (304 nose)gas checked -.311

BTW check you en-blocs ..the 5 rounders need to be spread open a bit....my M1 works best with old worn out 8 rounders..Dan