Trying Lee FCD in 45 auto

[Backcut]

Got my first 45, a Kahr P45. Strange choice maybe, but affordable (used) and made in the US and I like it. Shot great with the little box of S&B 230gr I got to try it out.

Ordered some MBC 230gr "softball" hi-tek coated bullets to try in it. They shot great in initial workups with 231 and True Blue.
I'm using a Redding regular carbide die set with taper crimp seater and I think the expander is similar to the Lyman M style.

I sat them to 1.200 to pass the plunk test. I struggled a bit with the taper crimp seater. First time doing a taper crimp with cast bullets. Had to screw the die way out to prevent the crimp starting too soon/too hard and scraping lead and coating off during the seating. But then if I set the crimp too far out, the rounds ended up too fat to want to plunk nicely in the chamber. OAL is fine but some of them would want to go in a little hard due to the girth. I could still push them in pretty easy by hand, but not ideal, and in testing I had to tap the slide forward a few times to chamber. All Winchester brass, and the OAL test dummy round plunked easy but when loading they got inconsistent, which I found strange. I mean the OAL stayed at 1.200 on the nose, but ease of plunking was inconsistent I believe due to diameter. The bullets measure .452 and the seated dummies I have left are .473 so that ought to have been ok. Next time I will take more careful measurements and write them down if any of them don't want to plunk easy.

So I've got a Lee FCD on order to at least try it out, they're cheap enough. I have read about how they're a band-aid for suboptimal loading practices earlier in the process, or that they can squeeze cast bullets down to jacketed size etc. Well, I'm going to give it a shot with before and after measurements, and report back. Let me know if you have any other advice, and thank you!

[gwpercle]

The Lee FCD is great for those who can't/don't want to learn how to seat and crimp boolits .
When dealing with soft coated boolits it is best to Seat the boolit in one operation and then crimp the boolit in a second seperate step . It keeps the coating from being scraped off as the crimp closes on the downward moving projectile .
Gary

[mdi]

The Lee FCD is great for those who can't/don't want to learn how to seat and crimp boolits .
When dealing with soft coated boolits it is best to Seat the boolit in one operation and then crimp the boolit in a second seperate step . It keeps the coating from being scraped off as the crimp closes on the downward moving projectile .
Gary

I agree! I'm not a Lee Hater but the FCD is a band aid for sloppy reloading (I have been reloading semi auto cartridges for about 35 years without the need to post crimp size anything) Try seating/crimping in two steps. But I understand some need 100% feeding (?), like in competition shooters, but I can't remember a FTF in any of my 5 caliber semi-auto handloads. I've been reloading for quite a while and still separate steps; seat all, then change dies or re-adjust die and deflare all (none of my semi-auto rounds need a "crimp"). Once I find the OAL that works with a specific bullet in my gun(s) they all plunk easily...

[tazman]

So I've got a Lee FCD on order to at least try it out, they're cheap enough. I have read about how they're a band-aid for suboptimal loading practices earlier in the process, or that they can squeeze cast bullets down to jacketed size etc. Well, I'm going to give it a shot with before and after measurements, and report back. Let me know if you have any other advice, and thank you!

I always seat and crimp in two separate steps. It saves a lot of problems. I also use the Lee FCD for the crimping step.
The only time mine reduces the diameter of the boolit is if it is several thousandths larger than standard.
I use 452 sized boolits for mine and have no problems.
Adjust the body of the FCD as the instructions show. Back off on the crimp and put one of your properly seated rounds in. After running it into the FCD, turn the crimp knob down until it makes contact with the rim of the case.
Load a couple of new rounds that have not been crimped and run them into the FCD. Continue to adjust the crimp knob until they fall into the chamber as needed.

Very easy to do.

I really have not experience the issues people say they have with the Lee FCD. I use it on all my handgun cartridges with no issues at all.
Many tests have confirmed that my FCD dies do NOT swage down my boolits.
It is possible that Lee may make some with undersize rings in them. I have not experienced this with 5 different ones that I use.

[DougGuy]

What you should do is send that barrel and have it throated, I get a lot of those, I have a CW45 and it wouldn't run the Hornady Critical Defense JHP loads, had a couple of failure to fire where the firing pin pushed the round more into the rifling instead of firing the round. Now mine gets Speer Gold Dot +P with the barrel throated it is super reliable and will feed anything that will cycle through the magazine.

[AlaskaMike]

I would love to see a discussion of the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die which doesn't include folks badmouthing those who use it.

All too often many of our friends here ridicule folks who bring up the Lee FCD, claiming that those who use it don't know what they're doing, that it's a bandaid for sloppy reloading practices, etc.

I'm not surprised to see that kind of mud slinging on other forums, but it's very disappointing to see it here.

[AlaskaMike]

I always seat and crimp in two separate steps. It saves a lot of problems. I also use the Lee FCD for the crimping step.
The only time mine reduces the diameter of the boolit is if it is several thousandths larger than standard.
I use 452 sized boolits for mine and have no problems.
Adjust the body of the FCD as the instructions show. Back off on the crimp and put one of your properly seated rounds in. After running it into the FCD, turn the crimp knob down until it makes contact with the rim of the case.
Load a couple of new rounds that have not been crimped and run them into the FCD. Continue to adjust the crimp knob until they fall into the chamber as needed.

Very easy to do.

I really have not experience the issues people say they have with the Lee FCD. I use it on all my handgun cartridges with no issues at all.
Many tests have confirmed that my FCD dies do NOT swage down my boolits.
It is possible that Lee may make some with undersize rings in them. I have not experienced this with 5 different ones that I use.

This has been my experience as well. I have Lee carbide FCDs for every semi auto caliber I own. I do think it's critical to adjust the die properly, according to Lee's instructions.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I would love to see a discussion of the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die which doesn't include folks badmouthing those who use it.

All too often many of our friends here ridicule folks who bring up the Lee FCD, claiming that those who use it don't know what they're doing, that it's a bandaid for sloppy reloading practices, etc.

I'm not surprised to see that kind of mud slinging on other forums, but it's very disappointing to see it here.

In .45 it's still a taper crimp die just with the added carbide ring at the bottom. It still requires set up and adjustment like any other crimp die. I'm not sure how this is a dumbed down version. I've used it to make many high quality rounds.

[DougGuy]

I would love to see a discussion of the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die which doesn't include folks badmouthing those who use it.

All too often many of our friends here ridicule folks who bring up the Lee FCD, claiming that those who use it don't know what they're doing, that it's a bandaid for sloppy reloading practices, etc.

I'm not surprised to see that kind of mud slinging on other forums, but it's very disappointing to see it here.

I won't bad mouth the die, but a lot of folks don't look hard enough at the details before making judgement. Fact is, the Lee FCD is intended for jacketed bullets, .451" in diameter which is pretty much THE industry standard diameter for factory made ammo. The die will NOT size down a .451 j-word.

Another thing, those carbide rings are not all created equal. Some are tighter than others! Which means finished results can and WILL vary quite a bit! So it's basically a crapshoot whether the FCD will work in *your* situation well, or jut so so, or not at all.

Since the die is made with a finite size at the carbide ring, it cannot be adjusted for use with larger cast boolits .452" in diameter like we on this forum use 99.89% of the time. If you load a .452" boolit that bulges the sides of the case beyond what will pass through the carbide ring, it WILL size the outside of the case. Usually this will in turn downsize the boolit in the case. This is where most of the negative comments come from.

So instead of reading what J.R. Doe experienced handloader writes on an internet forum, use a kinetic boolit puller and make a few loads, run them through the FCD and pull the boolits and MIC them with a micrometer. Not a caliper. Only after this test is done will YOU know if the FCD will work for you without creating an undersized boolit. And the next FCD you buy just may be a tiny bit tighter, or looser, and results will vary.

The one thing it DOES do that should be mentioned, is in cases where it does swage down a lead boolit, one must consider the springback in the brass case, and now there is MUCH LESS case neck tension than before the FCD was used. This could lead to boolit setback when the rounds are fed from the magazine, which would be a dangerous scenario in anybody's book.

[AlaskaMike]

I won't bad mouth the die, but a lot of folks don't look hard enough at the details before making judgement. Fact is, the Lee FCD is intended for jacketed bullets, .451" in diameter which is pretty much THE industry standard diameter for factory made ammo. The die will NOT size down a .451 j-word.

Another thing, those carbide rings are not all created equal. Some are tighter than others! Which means finished results can and WILL vary quite a bit! So it's basically a crapshoot whether the FCD will work in *your* situation well, or jut so so, or not at all.

Since the die is made with a finite size at the carbide ring, it cannot be adjusted for use with larger cast boolits .452" in diameter like we on this forum use 99.89% of the time. If you load a .452" boolit that bulges the sides of the case beyond what will pass through the carbide ring, it WILL size the outside of the case. Usually this will in turn downsize the boolit in the case. This is where most of the negative comments come from.

So instead of reading what J.R. Doe experienced handloader writes on an internet forum, use a kinetic boolit puller and make a few loads, run them through the FCD and pull the boolits and MIC them with a micrometer. Not a caliper. Only after this test is done will YOU know if the FCD will work for you without creating an undersized boolit. And the next FCD you buy just may be a tiny bit tighter, or looser, and results will vary.

The one thing it DOES do that should be mentioned, is in cases where it does swage down a lead boolit, one must consider the springback in the brass case, and now there is MUCH LESS case neck tension than before the FCD was used. This could lead to boolit setback when the rounds are fed from the magazine, which would be a dangerous scenario in anybody's book.


Doug, I agree with everything you say, and I appreciate your technical approach to why the carbide ring can in some circumstances cause issues.

Unfortunately the fact remains that there is an unfortunate amount of badmouthing of folks who use the die, and I would like to see that stop.

[megasupermagnum]

I agree! I'm not a Lee Hater but the FCD is a band aid for sloppy reloading (I have been reloading semi auto cartridges for about 35 years without the need to post crimp size anything) Try seating/crimping in two steps. But I understand some need 100% feeding (?), like in competition shooters, but I can't remember a FTF in any of my 5 caliber semi-auto handloads. I've been reloading for quite a while and still separate steps; seat all, then change dies or re-adjust die and deflare all (none of my semi-auto rounds need a "crimp"). Once I find the OAL that works with a specific bullet in my gun(s) they all plunk easily...

A band aid, really? You can get away with seating and crimping at the same time sometimes, but you are scraping the side of the bullet to do it. You would have to be a masochist to think resetting a seating die every single time to crimp is a good idea. I've done it plenty of times. I now also have a crimping die for every single caliber I own.

I don't understand why the Lee carbide crimp die causes such an uproar. It has a body sizer yes. It very rarely causes issues. The crimp part is just a sleeve that is adjusted with a knob. They are great to work with. Here is the secret though, the body sizing ring is easy to remove. It's nothing but a carbide ring that is pressed in the bottom and against a lip inside the die. I think they also use some kind of retaining compound to glue them in. All you do is find a punch just a tiny bit bigger than the ID of that ring. Let's say it is .474". Find a .480"ish punch. In this case you might even be able to use a 1/2" punch. Take the knob and crimp sleeve out, then heat the lower part of the die with something, put it in the oven, use a propane torch, whatever. Mount the die in your press, or in a vice with a 7/8" nut. Finally take that punch from the top, give it a couple good whacks with a hammer, and the ring pops right out. I've done this both with and without heat. It's easy, takes 5 minutes to find/make the right size punch, and 10 seconds to knock the ring out. The only thing to keep in mind is to make sure your punch is smaller than the lip the ring is seated against, or you will be beating on the die, not the ring.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Seating and then "taper" crimping the 45acp in two different steps cures a lot of the problems you are having.

The only thing I will say about the Lee carbide FCD, is that it's designed for jacketed bullet ammo, or cast bullet ammo that was assembled with cast bullets that are the same size as jacketed bullets (.451)
Good Luck.


edited: oops, it looks like Dougguy already mentioned what I said about the LEE carbide FCD.

[Electrod47]

I find the Lee pretty handy. I run my .45acp through several different guns including revolver. I use nothing but mixed brass sometimes up 10+ loadings. I don't trim brass and only reject splits etc. While changing from Revolver to Auto or vise versa I'd some times get a failure to chamber but wedged in good. So, out comes the dowel and leather mallet. I just use Lee FCD and my hassels went away. Same with 9MM.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Get a carbide LFCD. You'll like it.
It's not for seating-- it's for crimping. You'll get very uniform crimps.


DG

[DougGuy]

I'd some times get a failure to chamber but wedged in good. So, out comes the dowel and leather mallet. I just use Lee FCD and my hassels went away. Same with 9MM.

I'm willing to speculate that those infrequent hangups were the boolit portion interfering with the rifling, from too little throat in the barrel and not the OD of the shoulder interfering with the chamber walls.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't remember what my 45acp carbide FCD measured, but I was able to load .453" bullets, and the ring did not size down the bullet. It's very easy to tell. Load a round, pull the bullet, measure. Another way is load a round, crimp in the seating die, then push that into the FCD. If you can push it in, the sizing ring isn't hurting it. I knocked my ring out of my 45 acp FCD anyway. The lip the ring seats on has an ID of .525".

So for anyone that worried about it, all you need is a 1/2" punch, or anything about .480"-.524" in diameter. Put the die in your press, give it a couple good whacks with a hammer, done deal. Don't over think this.

[DougGuy]

I was able to load .453" bullets, and the ring did not size down the bullet.

So for anyone that worried about it, all you need is a 1/2" punch, or anything about .480"-.524" in diameter. Put the die in your press, give it a couple good whacks with a hammer, done deal. Don't over think this.

Ha! You could SELL that carbide ring and make somebody quite happy! As I mentioned earlier, those rings are not created equal. You got LUCKY and got one that would let a .453" go through it without swaging.

[Glwenzl]

Interesting thread. For me the LFC is just another good tool I have in my tool box. Mostly use it on jacketed bullets because I’m very new to lead/casting.

Sometimes I like to roll crimp into a canalure groove, but mostly prefer to taper crimp. Being an old seasoned reloader and mostly wildcats, I met my challenge with the 357 Sig. All I can say is the LFC die was a godsend for that guy!

But just very recently, I purchased a LFC for my 32-20. I load for a .308” 32-20 contender, but this was for my .312” 32-20 that I had expanded using my NOE expander. Lost neck tension. The Mrs was hollering at me so I put things in a safe condition to leave and haven’t made it back. I now have some additional things to consider when I get back down there.

[megasupermagnum]

The FCD for the 32-20 is a collet crimp die. Completely different, it has nothing at all in common with the carbide crimp die. They are superior, but can't do taper crimps.

[charlie b]

I must have gotten lucky as well. My FCD die carbide ring does not change the case at all when I am loading cast bullets sized .452. And it does a really nice taper crimp when set properly.

The OP is having a different problem due to trying to seat and taper crimp in one step. I can get away with a roll crimp while seating, but, not taper crimp.

[rintinglen]

I always seat and crimp in two separate steps. It saves a lot of problems. I also use the Lee FCD for the crimping step.
The only time mine reduces the diameter of the boolit is if it is several thousandths larger than standard.
I use 452 sized boolits for mine and have no problems.
Adjust the body of the FCD as the instructions show. Back off on the crimp and put one of your properly seated rounds in. After running it into the FCD, turn the crimp knob down until it makes contact with the rim of the case.
Load a couple of new rounds that have not been crimped and run them into the FCD. Continue to adjust the crimp knob until they fall into the chamber as needed.

Very easy to do.

I really have not experience the issues people say they have with the Lee FCD. I use it on all my handgun cartridges with no issues at all.
Many tests have confirmed that my FCD dies do NOT swage down my boolits.
It is possible that Lee may make some with undersize rings in them. I have not experienced this with 5 different ones that I use.

This parallels my experience and practice. I use them or the Dillon die set on my SDB's on all my pistol cartridges except the 32 and 380 Acps.
I seat my boolit in the seater die and crimp in the FCD. I got my first in 38 special back when I was loading bunches of 38's in mixed brass and was running into problems with the occasional cartridge that would not drop into the chamber from a speedloader. That problem became a thing of the past for me.

[trails4u]

I use them and I like them...... And I don't care what anyone thinks about it! :shock:

[trixter]

When I started loading for my 45ACP, I was given a 3 die set and had to master seating and crimping on one die. That worked well (single stage press) for many years. Then I went crazy and bought a Lee Classic Cast Turret press and the 4 die set for 45ACP. As I learned to use all four dies I found out that the FCD was more accurate getting the mouth of the case back to specs. I load cast boolits and open the mouth for them. For me and my needs I will continue using the FCD.

[mdi]

Personally, I couldn't care less what tools one uses for reloading, and I don't think bad about those that choose other than what I think is best. But the down side is telling newer reloaders "just use a XCX and you'll be good to go" rather than how to trouble shoot a problem and fix it. In my experience (40+ years) I have not needed to post crimp size any round I have ever reloaded, but I understand some may want the extra "insurance" of a final sizing (competition shooters). I cannot remember the last handload I made that was a failure (feed, chamber, fire, eject), and I do not use an FCD. If one has a chambering problem, find out why and fix it, don't just cover it up to make a bad round feed.

Reading a statement that has no inflection, emotion often is mistaken in it's basic meaning ("sloppy reloading" is a good description but not necessarily an insult)

[megasupermagnum]

I could not disagree more. Why anyone would willingly load ammo, readjust their seating die to crimp, then run all that ammo through again is beyond me. For 40 years. That's ludicrous. There's a better tool for the job, use it, or don't. It is not a band aid.

[Backcut]

Thank you all for your input!
My primary takeaway so far is that I should seat and crimp in separate operations. Should have thought to try that myself. Guess I have been spoiled doing both at once in jacketed 9mm.
So if this is going to be two separate operations, I'll just need to decide whether to use the Lee FCD or a regular taper crimp die for the crimping step.

The FCD should arrive Friday. I'm going to test it to see if it improves the plunk, and measure to see if it's swaging the bullets down.
I will also test seating / readjusting / crimping with my Redding seater. If that produces better results than the FCD, I will get a dedicated taper crimp die. I agree that readjusting to crimp is not a convenient long-term solution.

I do not think this is a throat or OAL issue. On the ones that were hesitant to plunk, they were starting to drag at least 1/4" out from being fully chambered. To get them in was a fairly easy push, not nearly hard enough to be driving the bullet into the rifling or seat it deeper in the case by that much. If it was that bad I wouldn't have tried to shoot them.

I have only been reloading for 3 years (mostly rifles, jacketed) and this is was my first ever attempt at either 45 auto or cast bullets in an auto pistol cartridge. I will figure it out. I'll let you know next week where I'm at.
Cheers!

[Walks]

Be really interested to find out about how a new reloader deals with this situation.
I've always taper crimped auto pistol cartridges after seating in a separate seating die. Only time I ever tried seat/crimp was about 30yrs ago when RCBS brought out a Taper Crimp seater die. That was a bust, went back to seat & crimp in separate dies after about 3 cartridges.

When the fcd first came out, all My fellow Cowboy Shooter friends raved about it. Was just the perfect answer for loading .44-40 & .38-40.
I bought one from Midway, didn't work worth a darn.
That was because the Box it came it said .44-40 and the die was actually a .44Mag.
Lee didn't believe me so..........

[charlie b]

...In my experience (40+ years) I have not needed to post crimp size any round I have ever reloaded...

I never have either. And my FCD does not post size anything. Checked with a sharpie on the cases.

Personally I don't know why that carbide ring is in there, but, since it doesn't do anything on the cases I reload (9mm, .357 and .45acp) then it doesn't bother me.

For taper or roll crimp the FCD is not anything special. It does the same job as the other taper and roll crimp dies. I guess some have had trouble with the carbide ring sizing down cartridges, but, I have not.

Where I do like the FCD the best is in rifle cartridges when a crimp is needed (or for removing the flare for cast bullet seating). But, that is a different type die (collet) than the others.

PS I have seen that Lee has made a .357 FCD die that uses collet crimp vs roll crimp. Not sure of any others in their lineup like that.

PPS I have always seated bullets and crimped in separate steps, rifle and pistol.

[trails4u]

I never have either. And my FCD does not post size anything. Checked with a sharpie on the cases.

Personally I don't know why that carbide ring is in there, but, since it doesn't do anything on the cases I reload (9mm, .357 and .45acp) then it doesn't bother me.

For taper or roll crimp the FCD is not anything special. It does the same job as the other taper and roll crimp dies. I guess some have had trouble with the carbide ring sizing down cartridges, but, I have not.

Where I do like the FCD the best is in rifle cartridges when a crimp is needed (or for removing the flare for cast bullet seating). But, that is a different type die (collet) than the others.

PS I have seen that Lee has made a .357 FCD die that uses collet crimp vs roll crimp. Not sure of any others in their lineup like that.

PPS I have always seated bullets and crimped in separate steps, rifle and pistol.

Agreed.... I didn't actually even know the carbide ring was a thing... I've never used it to 'size' loaded cases, I use it to apply a taper crimp, or more accurately to remove any belling applied previously for bullet seating. It's well suited for this and I do like the price point.

[rbuck351]

I don't usually crimp my 45acp boolits. I just set the crimp die just low enough to remove the bell. Some cases that are a bit long get just a bit of crimp but not enough to cause any problems. Never used a Lee FCD as I have never had a problem with crimp that needed fixing. I have ended up with a couple of FCDs but I never tried to use one. Actually, I don't crimp much of anything except for 38 spl in a Ruger LCR and my heavy 454 Casull loads. Don't have anything bad to say about the FCD, just never found a need for one. I either seat and crimp in one step or if I have two crimp dies, I will crimp in a separate step. Never had a problem either way.

[Backcut]

296144
Well, I tried the FCD.
I numbered 10 bullets and 10 brass, with no primers or powder. I took all measurements twice, once across the number and once the other way. I show the avg and stdev of the 20 measurements taken for each metric. Figures are rounded to .0001 after averaging so you may notice rounding anomalies.

1. Measured new bullet
2. Seated bullet to 1.200 with no crimp, and measured brass near the case mouth
3. Ran them through the Lee FCD, setup per Lee directions, and remeasured brass near the case mouth
4. Pulled bullets with kinetic puller, and remeasured them
5. Is the amount the brass was sized by the FCD
6. Is the amount the bullet was sized by the FCD

1 Bullet Pre 4 Bullet Post 6 Bullet Sized
avg 0.4528 0.4512 -0.0015
stdev 0.0001 0.0002 0.0002

2 Brass Pre 3 Brass Post 5 Brass Sized
avg 0.4734 0.4720 -0.0014
stdev 0.0003 0.0002 0.0003

Fresh new bullets averaged .4528 maybe that's a little fat? I could not set the Redding taper crimp seater out far enough without running out of room on the seating stem to get 1.200", and still had some issues shaving lead and coating. No case mouth flare remained after seating. I Maybe I need to size these to .4520 or try a seating die with no crimp feature. I guess they make those for progressives.

No rounds passed the plunk test after seating. Then I ran them through the FCD. I could feel the carbide ring applying firm pressure to the rounds. All rounds plunked perfectly after using the FCD. I don't know of a way to measure neck tension after all this, but the rounds did not come apart with the kinetic puller with undue ease.
The FCD ended up sizing the rounds down by .0014 from .4734 to .4720
The bullets were sized down by .0015 from .4528 to .4512 (rounding to .0001)

Now I could run through all this again with a taper crimp instead of the FCD, but I don't know how it's going to help me plunk without somehow sizing the rounds down smaller than .4730 same as the FCD is doing.
Should I get a sizer and size the bullets to .4520 before seating them?
Should I try a seater with no crimp feature to help with the shaving?
Do you think I should go through all this again using the Redding taper crimp seater die to taper crimp in a second step after seating?

[tazman]

Shoot a bunch of the ones you ran through the FCD and see how accurate they are, how they feed, and if there are any leading issues.
You will then have your answer.
For me, the answer was to use the FCD and forget the other stuff since there were no issues at all.

[DougGuy]

YES you should size to .452" before you run these tests.

Also, mic some of the boolits before seating in the cases and then mic again after you pull some to see if the FCD swaged them down.

I don't think you posted any measurements of boolit diameter right in front of the case mouth. If boolits mic greater than throat diameter at this point, they most assuredly will not plunk regardless of case diameter at the shoulder.

What gun is this? Does it have any barrel throat? Sometimes there is interference in the throat causing round not to plunk, this is USUALLY the cause of the pistol failing to go into battery. It can be tricky trying to figure out is it the throat (or lack of) that's stopping things? Or are the rounds too fat at the shoulder to go into the chamber fully.

Post a pic looking into your barrel if you can, so we can see the throat. If it has any.

Do you have any pin gages? I use these to determine chamber diameter at the headspace ledge. Most 45ACP barrels will plunk a .472" pin quite easily, many will also plunk a .473" but the ones that are troublesome are not surprisingly marketed as a "Match" barrel. Those can be quite finicky with ammo.

[Backcut]

It's a Kahr P45. Polygonal barrel, not much throat in my amateur assessment. I do not have pin gages or telescoping bore gages. Seated at 1.200 OAL though, I don't think it's a throat issue, I think they're just too fat at 0.4734 and once I sized them down with the FCD they plunked to perfection. I think saami says 0.4730 max for the cartridge at the case mouth. Since they're only over by .0004, maybe if I size the bullets by .0008 from .4528 to .4520, then they could plunk without using the FCD. I'll need a sizer anyway when I eventually start casting. But for now maybe I will go and load some live ones using the FCD and try them out as tazman suggested. Thanks all

[MOA]

Backcut. Your type of rifling might warrant close watching with lead boolits. Yes, yes, I know their coated but..... still keep close watch on any signs of leading. It doesn't take much to increase barrel pressure.
Now I've been using FCD's for years. I have many. Some calibers get their attention and some don't. My battery of calibers entails both taper and roll crimps and some with no crimp whatsoever. I just finished doing 200 pieces of 45 acp yesterday. And yes, I used. FCD. Don't know about all the different dies out there though I sold hundreds to my customers over the 33 years in the industry. Here's my instructions on my older die set. Clearly Lee Precision understands some are loading .452 projectiles. I do most everything by way of single stage process. In this specific case of caliber I use a Lyman M die to expand the mouth, seat the boolit with the Lee seater and then crimp all with the FCD. So far my B-29 targets all get holes in the dead zone. But to each his own. It's been working for me for 30 years.

https://i.postimg.cc/2Sb1L7J6/20220212-135229.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XrWjTdnS)

https://i.postimg.cc/25n328CN/20220212-135246.jpg (https://postimg.cc/DWy2zhWx)

https://i.postimg.cc/kGhp8dG6/20220209-152103-HDR-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/4HVPkqzs)

https://i.postimg.cc/wxWPnD2q/20220209-152111-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xqztzJBh)

https://i.postimg.cc/t46M1wjJ/20220210-153110-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/871H9ysg)

https://i.postimg.cc/tCYfb7vh/20220210-155749-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/1f1McRQt)

[35remington]

Since you determined that the FCD does size the bullet notably, you may also be dealing with less grip holding the bullet in place under the force of feeding. May want to check that on a bathroom scale. To avoid the issue you may wish to size bullets to .452 beforehand to avoid the possibly deleterious effects of squeezing the bullet in the die. When testing check grip without any taper crimp applied to see if there is any effect on case tension from the sizing.

Most of what holds the bullet in the case is case grip.

Since separate taper crimp only dies are offered by all makers that taper crimp only, I have never seen the benefit to the LFCD. That’s not badmouthing. That is expressing an opinion based on considerable experience and comparative use, so pardon if I express it.

[gifbohane]

I do not think that anyone is badmouthing the Lee Dye. Every monkey to his own tree.

In my case I would just point out that the "new guy" says he has a problem with his seat/crimp/plunk.

My advice, and that is all it is, would be to correct your process.

What type of seat/crimp dies does the original poster have? I found that reading the directions 25 times and mushing 25 cases usually solved my problem.

[35remington]

All seating dies with relatively few exceptions have the ability to crimp. Simply back off the die so it does not apply a crimp. No need to get something else if you want to just seat the bullet without crimping.

[Larry Gibson]

Since '68 I sized a bajillion 45 cast bullets of different designs at .452 and used them in numerous 45 ACP semi's, revolvers and a few subguns. Loaded them in about every kind and make of brass and never had a problem with any of them chambering. I seated the bullet and sized the case mouth back straight in a single step for several years w/o a hitch but then read in a gun rag I shouldn't do that, so I got a taper crimp die and added that additional step. had no chambering problems. Then I got a Dillon SDB which seats and taper crimps in 2 steps. I still had no chambering problems until......

Then I got a special made for my SF company Para14 which had a "match" chamber. Then I began to have chambering issues with about 2 rounds in every magazine not fully going into battery. Said rounds chambered just fine in my other two M1911s. I ran the offending rounds up slightly into the taper crimp die and they then chambered w/o any problems. I the got a .451 H&I sizer and a 45 ACP FCD. I cast a hundred Lee 230 TCs, sized them at .451 and loaded them on the SDB w/o any adjustments to the dies. I then shot the hundred rounds through the Para14 w/o a single failure to chamber. It ran a slick as the proverbial scum on a Louisiana swamp...... Accuracy was as good as with the .452 sized bullets and there was no leading.

Since I had several thousand of the .452 sized rounds loaded I rand a hundred of those through the Lee FCD and shot 50 each through my Colt M19911 with a Brown Match barrel and through my stock barreled Combat Commander. Again, accuracy was as always and there was no leading. I have since run the remainder of the ammo with .452 sized bullets through the FCD and have had no further chambering problems. I have also shot numerous rounds of the .451 sized bullets and numerous rounds of the rounds resized with the FCD through my S&W M1917/25, Uberti Evil Roy SA with 45 ACP cylinder and my Rhineland 45 ACP conversion M98 Mauser with excellent accuracy and no leading.

Additionally, a friend was having the same type of chambering problems in a M92 9mm. He tried all sorts of solutions with no success. I lent him a .356 H&I die to resize his cast bullets to. He was sizing at .358 and then .357 because that's what he'd read to do. Sizing his cast bullets at .356 cured the chambering problem w/o decreasing accuracy or giving any leading. I'd also lent him my Lee 9mm FCD to run his already loaded rounds through. Those then chambered and shot just fine. The only problem is he is balking, begging and pleading not to return them until is back ordered H&I and FCD are delivered. I don't mind.

[MOA]

Since '68 I sized a bajillion 45 cast bullets of different designs at .452 and used them in numerous 45 ACP semi's, revolvers and a few subguns. Loaded them in about every kind and make of brass and never had a problem with any of them chambering. I seated the bullet and sized the case mouth back straight in a single step for several years w/o a hitch but then read in a gun rag I shouldn't do that, so I got a taper crimp die and added that additional step. had no chambering problems. Then I got a Dillon SDB which seats and taper crimps in 2 steps. I still had no chambering problems until......

Then I got a special made for my SF company Para14 which had a "match" chamber. Then I began to have chambering issues with about 2 rounds in every magazine not fully going into battery. Said rounds chambered just fine in my other two M1911s. I ran the offending rounds up slightly into the taper crimp die and they then chambered w/o any problems. I the got a .451 H&I sizer and a 45 ACP FCD. I cast a hundred Lee 230 TCs, sized them at .451 and loaded them on the SDB w/o any adjustments to the dies. I then shot the hundred rounds through the Para14 w/o a single failure to chamber. It ran a slick as the proverbial scum on a Louisiana swamp...... Accuracy was as good as with the .452 sized bullets and there was no leading.

Since I had several thousand of the .452 sized rounds loaded I rand a hundred of those through the Lee FCD and shot 50 each through my Colt M19911 with a Brown Match barrel and through my stock barreled Combat Commander. Again, accuracy was as always and there was no leading. I have since run the remainder of the ammo with .452 sized bullets through the FCD and have had no further chambering problems. I have also shot numerous rounds of the .451 sized bullets and numerous rounds of the rounds resized with the FCD through my S&W M1917/25, Uberti Evil Roy SA with 45 ACP cylinder and my Rhineland 45 ACP conversion M98 Mauser with excellent accuracy and no leading.

Additionally, a friend was having the same type of chambering problems in a M92 9mm. He tried all sorts of solutions with no success. I lent him a .356 H&I die to resize his cast bullets to. He was sizing at .358 and then .357 because that's what he'd read to do. Sizing his cast bullets at .356 cured the chambering problem w/o decreasing accuracy or giving any leading. I'd also lent him my Lee 9mm FCD to run his already loaded rounds through. Those then chambered and shot just fine. The only problem is he is balking, begging and pleading not to return them until is back ordered H&I and FCD are delivered. I don't mind.

I've never had issues with non-chambering cartridges since using LFCD either. I started using them in the 90's I think. I was a j word shooter when I first started in the mid seventies so not lots of issues when I got started but had to learn many thing over again when I started using cast. Use of the LFCD was a tool that started with my 44's first. As I started using more an more cast in my increasing battery of calibers I found that as in the 44's I did not have issues with chambering, leading, or accuracy. Everytime I started with a new caliber I grabbed a LFCD to have on hand if needed. So far I have no regrets.

https://i.postimg.cc/SsKGBBXd/20150503_092420.jpg (https://postimg.cc/d7zddSjZ)

[dondiego]

Never needed one.

[fredj338]

I loaded 10s of 1000s of 45acp without a lfcd. I bought one just to see if it did affect accuracy & my tests show it does to some degree. Maybe not enough for the avg pistol shooter but it dies open groups a bit with mixed brass. Vs taper crimp.

[justindad]

I have a 3” Kimber 1911 with a match grade barrel. Getting this gun to cycle reliably has been (& still is) a fun learning experience. When I was loading with Berry’s copper plated bullets, the FCD was required. Now I’m sizing my hand cast boolits to .451” DIA and things work perfectly with a taper crimp after seating.

[gwpercle]

Never needed one.

I didn't either !
They didn't have them in 1967 when I started loading 45 acp ...
dondiego:drinks:gary
if you ain't never had one ... you don't know you need it .

[charlie b]

And I still don't 'need' it. It came in the set of dies I ordered. It is just a taper crimp die that works very well for me. Just about any taper crimp die will do the same job.

[megasupermagnum]

You don't need carbide dies either, but what kind of fool would ever buy steel pistol dies today?

[agcannon]

I have a Lee factory crimp for 45 acp. Haven't tried it yet. never had any issues with .452 boolits. chambers are all throated in my 1911's. The LFC Die was a big help in loading 10 mm auto for my Glock 20. 10mm is the only round I load jacketed for.

I use the FCD for all my milsurp rifles, krag, 30-06, 7 & 8 mm. 45-70 too, just enough to take the bell out of the case after seating

[charlie b]

You don't need carbide dies either, but what kind of fool would ever buy steel pistol dies today?

True. And I don't need a taper crimp die either, but, I like to have one. The Lee is the one I happen to have and it works nicely for me.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

I know this is a dumb question, but are you belling the case mouth enough? Could that be what is causing the scraping as you seat/crimp? Just a thought, as I didn't see that mentioned in your initial post.

[charlie b]

The problem is typical with seating and applying a taper crimp at the same time. The case mouth is forced into the bullet as the seating stem presses down on the bullet.

If you do not crimp and only remove the 'bell' you can get away with this.

FWIW, in the old days I used to use a sizing die (std RCBS, not carbide) to remove the flare. Just run the case into the die about 0.1" Actually worked really well for me.

[Larry Gibson]

Never needed one.

I never needed one either....until I did.......

[onelight]

Shoot a bunch of the ones you ran through the FCD and see how accurate they are, how they feed, and if there are any leading issues.
You will then have your answer.
For me, the answer was to use the FCD and forget the other stuff since there were no issues at all.
My experience is the same , I use them on all my auto pistol loads , makes life simpler.

[gwpercle]

You don't need carbide dies either, but what kind of fool would ever buy steel pistol dies today?

Me !
A set of CH in 9mm luger because I find the carbide don't do a proper job on the tapered 9mm case , the Lee carbide sizer oversized the case straight . The CH does a nice taper size .
Also picked up a set of steel 41 Magnum Dies , made by Bonanza ... never been used , for $4.95 ...No one bid on them so I bid $4.95 and got them !
I guess I'm odd because I still load on a single station Pacific press , don't mind gas checks , like steel dies and not afraid of case lube .
I use Lee case lube mixed with alcohol and sprayed on ... no mess .
Gary
my Herter's 41 magnum were steel also but the Bonanza Dies were super nice .

[Backcut]

I got out to the range yesterday.
Recap:
Kahr P45, 3.5" barrel
MBC 230gr coated bullets
Redding dies

This time I ran all the bullets through through a .452 sizer
Adjusted expander die and ran all the cases through again making sure I have just enough flare
I added a Redding #94189 "pro series" seating die with *no crimp feature*
Seated bullets to 1.200" with no scraping and no trouble
All rounds are much too fat to plunk

Now how do I crimp?
I removed the seater plug from the original Redding taper crimp seating die that came with the set and adjusted that to give about the minimum crimp needed for rounds to plunk easily. The die features a very gradual taper pretty much the full length of the case.
Finally I crimped 10 each with the taper crimp or with the Lee FCD, over 231 or True Blue, 40 rounds total.
All 4 loads functioned well and were pleasingly accurate, though I pulled a shot or two with each of them.
The taper crimp gave slightly higher velocities than the FCD with both powders.



Powder
Die
Vel
stdev


RTB 6.9
taper crimp
790
12


RTB 6.9
Lee FCD
782
9


231 5.2
taper crimp
790
10


231 5.2
Lee FCD
771
17



Both the Lee FCD and the taper crimp worked fine and made functional and accurate rounds. According to the test I posted on 2/12, the FCD did swage my bullets down by around .0015" from .4528 to .4512, though I did not repeat that test with the taper crimp, and that was also before I ran all the bullets through the .452 sizer. The press lever offered less resistance with the taper crimp, and somehow it gave a little better velocity for the same powder charge, so I guess I'll taper crimp and set the FCD aside. But it worked as it should and I don't have any problems with it.
I didn't see any leading, but will keep an eye out.

Thanks to you all for the good advice you've given me in this thread,
Backcut