50 yd 2 foot group with cast bullets.

[Jeffcamis]

We're I'm I going wrong....

Rifle 91/30. Bullet Missouri bullet 167 gn coated cast bullet. Powder 16 grains of 2400
The bullet was seated not passed the neck of the case. No keying but the bullets were all over the place at 50 yards???


They should be at 1500 fps. I was told 1800 fps should tighten them up. How much powder should I use to get 300 fps more????

These were my 1st cast bullet loads.

Thanks
Jeff

[Dutchman]

I suspect the problem is bullet diameter. If you substitute one ingredient at a time, or change one loading procedure at a time you'll be able to narrow down what the problem is but I suspect bullet diameter. Try .314" heavy cast like Lyman 314299 or similar.

Nothing wrong about 1,500 fps with that cartridge. Don't mess with the load level just concentrate on the bullet diameter.

When all else fails it could well be the barrel is belled at the muzzle.

Dutch

[Thumbcocker]

Slug the bore.

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[gpidaho]

Jeff: While there are exceptions, 91/30s are hardly target rifles. Many have terrible bores from corrosive ammunition and seldom cleaning. My last one had a bore that looked like a sewer pipe. Use the largest bullet that will chamber in your rifle. Measure The I.D. of a fired case in the neck area and start there. I like to use powder coated bullets and would try heavier bullets if it were me. 185 to 220 gr would be my choice. Good luck and welcome to the forum. Gp

[JWFilips]

Bullet size too small Boolets should be fat! My guess

[JohnH]

Don't forget the crown as well. Lots of those guns when they were cleaned were cleaned vigorously by inexperienced conscript troops with little training using steel rods, soap and hot water (perhaps even no soap). It could well be that the crown is damaged. Two ways to check it, take a Qtip , insert it in the muzzle and pull it out lightly dragging it against the muzzle edge. Do this all around. Any burrs will catch a bit of lint those need polished out. Second examine the rifling all around for depth consistency. You can do this with a pick like you would check brass for a separation groove, and also by slugging the muzzle a half inch at a time and examining the slug for rifling depth. A past member here, Junior1942, now deceased once told of a 7mm Mauser he purchased that wouldn't shoot and it turned out to be a ruined muzzle. He cut the barrel down two inches, recrowned it and the rifle shot fine thereafter.

[Jeffcamis]

Guys, thanks for the advise. I will measure the inside diameter of a spend case. Does anyone have any sources for 314 diameter coated bullets.

[brassrat]

Did you roll a round to see if the booletsky is wobbling ?

[samari46]

Finnish rifles as a rule have smaller groove diameters than Russian ones. My model 27 is .3115 and my Russian M44 carbine has a .314 groove diameter.
I load the Lyman 314299 at .3135 for the Model 27 and .314 for the Russian. Both use the same alloy wheel weights with 2% tin. Estimated velocity for the model 27 is about 1700fps and the carbine about 1500-1600fps. Frank

[Rcmaveric]

Check your bore for leading. If the bullet was undersized you would have a leading problem. From the sounds of these guns a good bore inspection is needed.

Missour bullets are know for being to hard and their lube too hard. So yes going higher volicities.may help. Only because the increases pressure would be needed for better obturation. Which would bump the bullets diameter up and everything work. Many newcomes try big box store cast bullets to see if they like it only to have issues because either the bullet doesnt fit, bullets too hard or lube is too hard and most often a combination.

Commercial cast bullets use hard lead and hard lubes because that what survives shipping.

Slug your barrel and get bullets .002 over groove. Better would be to slug your throat and order bullets throat diameter sized. Do a thorough inspection of your barrel, thost sized bullets help with rough barrels.

Also i would measure my seating depth. I can explain that if needed.

If the barrel wasnt leaded i woukd Try tunning a load. Load up a few shots going up in .2 or .5 grain incrments to max charge and see what you get.

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[gloob]

Ive been out of the game for awhile, now. Are these coatings supposed to do anything useful at rifle velocities? I thought you needed a gas check above 1200 fps.

[414gates]

I've had group sizes shrink with increase in velocity, but that's not the way to fix a scattershot pattern.

Check for pitting in the bore.

No bullet size and no coating is going to work if the bore is pitted. Barrel pitting causes severe leading in the barrel, and sends the remaining bullet on a random trajectory.

I had that problem in my 1946 model 70, bore is badly pitted, and paper patching got it shooting straight.

[dondiego]

Did it shoot a one inch group at 50 yards with jacketed ammo?

[Kraschenbirn]

Just looked at Missouri Bullet's catalogue and the OP's '167 gr coated cast' are probably the MBC '#1Russian-Grooveless' sized at .312. If so, as Thumbcocker suggested, the OP needs to slug the bore 'cause I can't recall ever seeing/handling a 19/30 that would shoot .312 cast worth bupkis. I would rate the bore of my 1937 Izhevsk...an all-matching original with no import marks, not a refurb...as 'good+' and it slugs just a bit under .313, The re-arsenaled '32 Tula in the rack beside it goes just about the same but has a counter-bored muzzle. Both will duplicate (or better!) ball ammo accuracy at 100 yards with PC'd 185 grain boolits sized .3145.

Bill

[lar45]

After you get your bullet diameter sorted out, try seating the bullets to touch the lands. This can give a huge benefit to tightening your groups. You need to have the correct size bullets to start with first.
My 2 Mosin's have kind of odd rifling. they are 4 groove barrels with one pair measuring .312", the other side measures .314".

[Backcut]

Does anyone think he should try slowing it down? I tried 165gr lubed factory cast plain base in a Win 94 30-30 with 2400, 15-19 grains at 1650-1919 fps and accuracy was unspeakably bad.
I dropped down to 10gr of 2400 for 1228 fps and the improvement was vast.

[rbuck351]

I have an SKS that shot large patters at 50yds with jacketed bullets. Probably 15" to 18" patterns but all didn't hit the paper so I'm not sure how big a group. The barrel looked pretty good until I got to the crown which looked like it had been cut with a rusty spoon. I cut about 1/4" and recrowned with a brass round head screw and valve grinding compound I now shoots about 3" at 100yds with cast or jacketed.

My Mosin has a .316 bore and I haven't got a mold big enough for it yet.

[Bigmancrisler]

I have 3 91/30s and a m44, m38, and 91/59, two 91/30s slugged right at .313 same with the 91/59, the m38 slugs at .314 and the other 91/30 and m44 slug at .3156 so they certainly can very quite a bit. I will have to check when I get home but I know one of my 91/30s has a pitted to hell and back barrel and 2 have nearly mint condition barrels.


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[farmbif]

how does it shoot with old surplus ammo?

those are the ones that used to be sold out of a barrel at the LGS for $50 came with a free spam can of ammo, those were the days.

you could have one of the ones that was the reason why soviets were so dependent on lend lease in WWII

if you can't get it to shoot well with anything might be good candidate to have relined or bored out bigger

[truckjohn]

Mosins can be tricky.

Crowns and the last 1" of the rifling is often wallowed out from grit/sands/snow accumulation.

Groove diameters are often quite large. 0.313" is the minimum spec, with no maximum. Snipers and ex-snipers in good shape are usually pretty close to that. "Normal" infantry versions generally run 0.314-0.316" I've measured groove diameters over 0.319". Ironically, bore diameter could be all over the place as well... which effects the fit of the nose.

I've also run into some that were "reverse tapered" - fat at the muzzle end tapering neatly to much tighter toward the chamber. Those didn't shoot well.

The difficulty is that the chamber necks are often quite tight. This is safe for the field when it comes to mud and snow, but not so good for accuracy. So for example, your barrel wants 0.315" but the chamber won't tolerate a bullet over 0.312 without neck turning... Not much you can do there besides run whatevet bullet reliably chambers and hope for the best.

I shoot Lyman 311299 sized 0.313", (edit - I believe my mold is a 314299 sized 0.313". Same mold, just a bit fatter.). gas checked in mine, and I had to neck turn cases for consistent chambering. This is the classic bullet for 30-cal Military rifles like 1903's, Enfields, and Mosins - which tend to have a very long throat.

The next "issue" is reloading dies. I had to get a custom seating die with an oversized neck to allow consistent seating without crushing the bullets once I started pushing bullets above 0.313".

So... On yours, here's what I would do:
Take a peek at the crown. It could be damaged. Fix if needed.

Find some 311299, gas checked and conventionally lubed. 0.312-0.313"
Test a few without powder to ensure consistent chambering.

Load with 16-17 grains 2400 and try it out.

Mine consistently shoot minute of pop can at 100 yards with this load, and that's as good as I can hold with irons... But then again, I also spent a LOT of time searching for ones with pristine barrels. I had the best luck by far with Finns, snipers, and ex-snipers.

[DonHowe]

Jeff: While there are exceptions, 91/30s are hardly target rifles. Many have terrible bores from corrosive ammunition and seldom cleaning. My last one had a bore that looked like a sewer pipe. Use the largest bullet that will chamber in your rifle. Measure The I.D. of a fired case in the neck area and start there. I like to use powder coated bullets and would try heavier bullets if it were me. 185 to 220 gr would be my choice. Good luck and welcome to the forum. Gp

A "terrible" bore can shoot pretty well with proper fitting cast bullets carrying lots of lube.

[gwpercle]

In this game ... You have to pay your dues .
If it was easy ... everybody would be doing it .
Fist off get a rifle with a nice barrel ...old military rifles except those the Swiss Army used usually look like sewer pipes ... corrosive primers and lackacleaning .

Shooting lead out of a Rough Mil-Surp barrel is like learning to swim with a concrete block tied around your neck ... it just drags you down .
Gary

[pacomdiver]

a couple of mine slug 314 and 315, i cast a 311365 that i beagled and they drop at .315, i powdercoat them and shoot without sizing in the larger ones, or use it unbeagled (.3105) then powder coated for the 312 and 313 ones

[JWFilips]

You are really doing something wrong!Pound cast your chamber! Speed is not going to help you!

[GhostHawk]

I did not find any accuracy with my Mosin's no matter what powder, load etc until I went to .314 bullets and a .314 sizing die for gas checks.

Eventually I was able to increase the size of a couple of my lee molds and got decent accuracy. Say 50 cent piece at 50 yards.

Cast bullet has to be 2 to 3 thousandths over groove. And if the groove is .313 or .314 your not going to find any joy with .312 bullets.

The other option I discovered making flat nose bullets out of rounds was bumping them up. But that is a whole nother story.

[Bigmancrisler]

You are really doing something wrong!Pound cast your chamber! Speed is not going to help you!

What’s pound cast?


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[truckjohn]

A pound cast is slugging your barrel, except really only the leade. Hammer a soft fishing sinker into the chamber, just barely into the rifling, then knock it back out and mic it with a micrometer.

Lead is soft and mushy... Easy to squish with a mic... Easy to screw it down hard till it clicks, and you've crushed the lead 0.003" or so. Close the jaws till it just stops and read.

[Kosh75287]

Use CERROSAFE and see if you can use enough to get into the throat and first rifling of the barrel. Between now and then, you might consider assembling loads with 16.2 - 17.0/2400/167 gr. Missouri, in 0.2 gr increments, just to be MORE sure that the bullet instability isn't from velocity being in a "marginal zone" for that particular projectile. The slightly increased pressure(s) from elevated powder charge weights may also assist bullet obturation, which may engage the rifling more completely.
I'm not sure if anyone responding to your inquiry has mentioned paper-patching some of your Missouri coated bullets, but it MAY "fill the gap" between your .312" projectiles and your (likely) .314" bore, enough to impart more spin to the projectiles and tighten your groups.
Lastly, and this is NOT an indictment of your bullet casting skills, but have you weighed your cast bullets to determine variability, before loading them? I doubt that this is THE problem, but it may be a contributor to it. I know that, when I cast ANY projectile for the first time, it's almost an unwritten law that the first 2 dozen or so will be all over place in weight, even when I've done my best to get everything right.