50-70 Rolling Block

[tuckerd1]

Hello All! New member here from Alabama with a thirst for rolling blocks. I own several.

I have a Swedish rolling block that was 12.7x44 when I bought it. It has C.F. Lindberg on the upper tang.

I have since used a 50-70 chamber reamer on it. It is 25 1/2" barrel with what I THINK? is 1 in 42 twist. I ran several patches down the barrel and got slightly over 1/2 rotation. This twist rate was from a gunsmith friend that did some research for me. It slugs out at .515.

I plan to shoot black powder thru it. What cast bullets do yall think has the potential to work well with this rifle? I have a Lee 515-450-F mold on order, but I would like more opinions.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

12.7x44R is a great cartridge easily formed from 348 Winchester brass.

https://i.imgur.com/AFxNuppl.jpg

Even after the "bubbered" job with the 50/70 reamer, at 0.515, you still have a very worn out Swedish barrel that should mic .492/.508 so any boolit of 0.510 should work. I use a Lyman 515141 at 450gns with 62gns of Swiss No.2.

[tuckerd1]

I'm sitting here trying to figure out your post. Since I no longer have a 12.7x44, I'll ignore that part. As far as "bubba" goes, I'll take that with a grain of salt. The barrel is bright and shiny with strong rifling.

[marlinman93]

I'm sitting here trying to figure out your post. Since I no longer have a 12.7x44, I'll ignore that part. As far as "bubba" goes, I'll take that with a grain of salt. The barrel is bright and shiny with strong rifling.

These old barrels wont always be what is specified for certain calibers in books. They weren't rifled with modern equipment or standards, so it's not unusual to find one with an over spec groove diameter.
But with a 1/2 turn in 25.5" it sounds like an extremely slow twist as that's about 1 turn in 50"! Never knew they made the originals in any twist rate that slow? If it's that slow you'll want the lightest .515" bullet you can get, or it wont stabilize well. It might shoot groups suitable for hunting at less than 100 yds., but the farther you shoot the larger the groups will be pretty quickly.

[RustyReel]

I have a couple of those Swedish rollers. Never slugged the barrels nor measured the twist rate. I only shoot 100 yds or less for fun. Mine like the Lee 450 sized .512. They don't like the 500 grain or a lighter weight Lyman (360 I think, but will have to look). I'm probably not shooting the lighter weight fast enough. I modified the brass instead of modifying the rifle, only because it was cheaper. If I had a 50/70 reamer I probably would have gone that route.

Don't let the bubba comment get to you. It's your rifle and you can make a lamp out of it if you want.

[tuckerd1]

Thanks @marlinman93 for the respectful reply. I did get a little over 1/2 rotation, so I assumed the most common twist near that was 1in42. Since the only mold I have at this time is the 450 Ill give it a try. I'm sort in the same mind set as you that it may not stabilize well. If that is true, I may order a custom mold and test more.

[tuckerd1]

I have a couple of those Swedish rollers. Never slugged the barrels nor measured the twist rate. I only shoot 100 yds or less for fun. Mine like the Lee 450 sized .512. They don't like the 500 grain or a lighter weight Lyman (360 I think, but will have to look). I'm probably not shooting the lighter weight fast enough. I modified the brass instead of modifying the rifle, only because it was cheaper. If I had a 50/70 reamer I probably would have gone that route.

Don't let the bubba comment get to you. It's your rifle and you can make a lamp out of it if you want.

Another thanks for a respectful reply. I used the reamer because I could rent it for $25. 50-70 brass was available from Starline, so I went that route.

[marlinman93]

Here's a fun read you might enjoy. If you go down to the 12.7 vs. .50-70 comparison you'll notice the specs on the 12.7 state the groove is .512" and the lands are .489", which sounds like yours. Lots of other interesting info, including the factory load being 425 gr. bullet. Wish they'd mentioned the original twist rate, but I don't see it?

http://www.autochart.com/12_7mm-50-70.htm

[tuckerd1]

Here's a fun read you might enjoy. If you go down to the 12.7 vs. .50-70 comparison you'll notice the specs on the 12.7 state the groove is .512" and the lands are .489", which sounds like yours. Lots of other interesting info, including the factory load being 425 gr. bullet. Wish they'd mentioned the original twist rate, but I don't see it?

http://www.autochart.com/12_7mm-50-70.htm

Thanks. That's some interesting info.

[gunther]

Years ago, a 43 spanish with a twist drill enlarged chamber got rebarreled to 50 70 courtesy of a 50-50 barrel (DGW) and a rented reamer. Never did shoot for group, but, with a Lyman 515139 and a case full of 3f, it blew out the back side of a 6 inch poplar at 30 yards

[tuckerd1]

I've been considering the 1in 42 twist and I made a few assumptions. My barrel is 25.5 to the breech face. The chamber depth from the rim is 1.75 (brass length) -.065 (rim thickness) = 1.685. The patch stops turning when it hits the chamber. Rifling would measure 25.5 - 1.685 = 23.815. Since I got slightly over 1/2 rotation, I'm assuming it turned 9/16 of a rotation. if you ratio the rotation to the rifling length, .5625/23.815 = 1 (full rotation)/X (rifling length for full rotation), then X=23.815/.5625 = 42.33). So, a 1in42 twist rate is pretty darn close.

[MOA]

Howdy tuckerd1, I too like you picked up the Swede roller in 12.17x 44R. After slugging both of these rollers my groove was around .510 in both rifles. I had both Lee molds for the 450 & 500 but opted to start with a Lyman mold for around 395 grains. It's a S/C Lyman great Plains boolit. The information I got was original boolit was .497 groove diameter. So I'm using a softer alloy to bump up after firing to fill the bore. I'm using 50 Alaskan brass from Starline. I've also started messing around with a 500 S&W group by mold to see how it works. I'm thinking of getting one of the rifles reamed with a 50 Alaskan finish reamer so I don't have to keep trimming my Alaskan brass down to 40.7mm. Depending on how your Lee 450 grain works out you always have the option of going to a softer alloy. 40:1 could work better than a harder boolit. You can also search for some write-ups from a fellow member with a handle of Dutchman. He's done a lot of work with Swede rollers so you might find something in his write-ups very helpful. I know I did.

https://i.postimg.cc/kGXM711j/Swede_rolling_blocks_004.jpg (https://postimg.cc/1n21HHZ6)

https://i.postimg.cc/nrh7QNTZ/20180421_115047.jpg (https://postimg.cc/yg2WMQwr)

https://i.postimg.cc/tTdsHP5r/20180421_115200.jpg (https://postimg.cc/FdRryYwc)

https://i.postimg.cc/yx036Lzq/20180421-145318-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/gLk2NqJ4)

https://i.postimg.cc/3JbSDNRk/20180421_145349.jpg (https://postimg.cc/TpgqzRnx)

https://i.postimg.cc/pd0zynK9/20180622_110554.jpg (https://postimg.cc/gwZnTjSd)

https://i.postimg.cc/SNzB2fFW/20190922-102438.jpg (https://postimg.cc/gnmS1R0J)

https://i.postimg.cc/bwx4LYvr/20190922-102630.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RW0PZBKx)

https://i.postimg.cc/1tbZ2C13/20190922-113236.jpg (https://postimg.cc/cg7j8cJp)

https://i.postimg.cc/7hqNHDks/20190922-114906.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ftgdCGkm)

[koger]

I have 2 of them, neither would shoot the bullet shown above, worth a hoot. I use Lee .515, 450 or 500 gr and get excellent accuracy with a load of unique behind it. By excellent I mean 2-2.75" groups at 100yds. :The front bead covers up more than that..

[MOA]

I have 2 of them, neither would shoot the bullet shown above, worth a hoot. I use Lee .515, 450 or 500 gr and get excellent accuracy with a load of unique behind it. By excellent I mean 2-2.75" groups at 100yds. :The front bead covers up more than that..

Your right there koger. Here's a shot of me slugging my bore with a 50 caliber Remington golden ball.

https://i.postimg.cc/sXGq7pBV/Photo0484.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/vTRjzc95/Photo0485.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/5yLcdw1P/Photo0483.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/KvhS7srC/Photo0482.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


https://i.postimg.cc/7PmYK4hj/Swede_rolling_blocks_003.jpg (https://postimg.cc/G9TCpZkj)

I just got an email back from Lee Precision about a mould they were making for a European business that was made for these Swedish rolling blocks. It's a heeled 12 mm cast double cavity mould.
They have directed me to contact Track of the Wolf about this mould. I'm hoping to have a answer from them in the near term. Here are some images of that Lee mould.

https://i.postimg.cc/tJpBfzmz/Screenshot-2022-01-09-15-45-16.png (https://postimg.cc/r0ZGR5Td)

https://i.postimg.cc/76gBmRX6/Screenshot-2022-01-09-15-43-29.png (https://postimg.cc/phLYdqwb)

https://i.postimg.cc/cLHb0X19/Screenshot-2022-01-09-15-43-11.png (https://postimg.cc/Yh53xNWY)

https://i.postimg.cc/R0z9Fk3C/Screenshot-2022-01-09-15-44-36.png (https://postimg.cc/BjNR7wcR)

All of these rollers have at best a generalized bore size and all must be slugged. I think the best strategy for this is a soft alloy and a full charge of black.
As you can see how small the bore on my barrels are with the 50 cal round ball, a .512 or .515 would not even begin to chamber in either of my rifles irrespective of a chamber reaming. The bore is what the bore is.

[tuckerd1]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm still waiting on my Lee 515-450 mold.

[marlinman93]

Your right there koger.


All of these rollers have at best a generalized bore size and all must be slugged. I think the best strategy for this is a soft alloy and a full charge of black.
As you can see how small the bore on my barrels are with the 50 cal round ball, a .512 or .515 would not even begin to chamber in either of my rifles irrespective of a chamber reaming. The bore is what the bore is.

Great advice, and spot on. Not only about groove diameters varying, but also about whether a slug that fits the groove diameter may not allow a .50-70 cartridge to seat in the case and still chamber. I've had more than one old rifle that had a groove diameter large enough that when I loaded the correct sized bullet into a case it wouldn't chamber enough to close the action. Fortunately for my shooting both were rifles I could make or buy breech seating tools for, so I seat the bullets into the bore, and just put the case with charge in behind it.

[corbinace]

Hey tuckered1, did you buy or rent the reamer.
I have a rifle with a damaged chamber that I would like to clean up with a 50/70 reamer.
If rented, who did you have good luck with, and if purchased, do you want to sell it now?

[tuckerd1]

Hey tuckered1, did you buy or rent the reamer.
I have a rifle with a damaged chamber that I would like to clean up with a 50/70 reamer.
If rented, who did you have good luck with, and if purchased, do you want to sell it now?
I rented it from http://www.rollingblockparts.com/. But, I don't know if he rents to everyone or just did it for me because I have bought several big ticket items from him.

[corbinace]

Thank you very much.

[marlinman93]

Thank you very much.

I rent from 4D Reamer Rentals in Kalispel, Mt. They always send out quickly, and reamers are in excellent condition.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Sorry if my "bubbered" comment upset some people, but why would you take a perfectly good 145yo rifle and destroy it's collector value just to feed it with a cheap alternative?

Mirrored bore!

https://i.imgur.com/XyVVmgdl.jpg

[corbinace]

Sorry if my "bubbered" comment upset some people, but why would you take a perfectly good 145yo rifle and destroy it's collector value just to feed it with a cheap alternative?

Mirrored bore!

https://i.imgur.com/XyVVmgdl.jpg

For me, the rifle came to me in a seriously compromised state. The chamber is not suitable for the 12.7 cartridge. I have another 12.7 that I shoot and want to make this one shoot as well. The most logical path, as I see it, is rechambering.

I am not picking a fight, only responding to your honest question. Everyone's path is a bit different and I am not going to be the judge of how a person walks it.

[marlinman93]

Whenever I consider a rechamber, rework, or rebarrel of an old rifle, I always take everything into consideration first. Of all the considerations, the things I hold highest is how good is the gun, and how collectible is it?
In my opinion, there are vast numbers of these military Rolling Blocks around, so unless the gun is in high condition, I see no issue at all personally in doing most anything to one that's not a high condition gun.
If by chance one of the old Rolling Blocks had some significant historical value, then it wouldn't matter what the condition was, I'd try to save it. But I just don't see that in the majority of the old Swedish or South American Rolling Blocks.

[pacomdiver]

my FIL bought one of the swedes about 5 years ago, i have had a love/hate relationship with it. it shoots decent but destroys brass. it was one of the ones that was reamed to 50/70 by the swedes but i think the armorer messed up (maybe didnt have it straight when we started it), there is a slight ring on the lower side(.010 to .012 measured on fired brass about 3/4" up from base. i can see it by eye and the bore scope) in the chamber and it splits brass on the second firing (even brand new), and is a pain to get the broken piece out, so have started to reanneal them every reload. if you use the starline brass, just so you know, it isnt annealed, so do that before you load them.

the load i use is reverse engineered from the factory rounds he got. i load the lyman 515141 (the 425g one) and size to .512, i have tried to use a lee 510 sizer but it doesnt hold well in case neck . i tried turning the seating die a smidge but it didnt help. i eyeballed the 501 lee sizer to closer match the bore but since the 510 didnt hold, there was no sense trying something smaller diameter

[MOA]

Whenever I consider a rechamber, rework, or rebarrel of an old rifle, I always take everything into consideration first. Of all the considerations, the things I hold highest is how good is the gun, and how collectible is it?
In my opinion, there are vast numbers of these military Rolling Blocks around, so unless the gun is in high condition, I see no issue at all personally in doing most anything to one that's not a high condition gun.
If by chance one of the old Rolling Blocks had some significant historical value, then it wouldn't matter what the condition was, I'd try to save it. But I just don't see that in the majority of the old Swedish or South American Rolling Blocks.

I totally agree. Unless there is some overriding value to firearm, I'd do the fix unless it's totally cost prohibitive. I've two 12.17x44R chambered.rollers, considering all the issues with the majority of these imports collectively speaking, so in many cases a reasonable rechamber might be in order while retaining the blank powder attributes. I've been ruminating on having both of these rechambered for 50 Alaskan but only using black powder to power it. Might not be a big issue, and it might clean up the old chamber an leade from past years of erosion and clean up some of the hassles of loading these great rollers and having fun instead of frustration.

[Dutchman]

My Carl Gustaf m/1867 rolling block has .477" land diameter and .500" groove diameter. I use .348 Winchester brass and shoot .510" bullets of 350 gr and 450 gr but the 450 gr are so heavy they fly slow. The original Swedish military bullet was 345 grs.

https://images41.fotki.com/v1402/photos/4/28344/9895637/220190717X-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/2-20190717x.html)

https://images20.fotki.com/v1666/photos/4/28344/9895637/320190717X-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/3-20190717x.html)

https://images14.fotki.com/v1221/photos/4/28344/9895637/420190717X-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/4-20190717x.html)

[tuckerd1]

I knew when I bought this RB it was going to be rechambered. I did it because I wanted to.

I'm not a collector per se. I have close to a hundred firearms. I bought them because I like them. To show I'm not a collector, I don't buy the most pristine I can find. I look for quality at a fair price. Collector prices are insane at times. I do buy guns of certain categories, such as bolt action 22 target rifles, rolling blocks, Browning 22 pistols, C&R youth rifles, etc.

I like tinkering. I am currently building a custom RB from an #5 smokeless action and buttstock/foream I bought in 2020. I have an 1867 Carl Gustaf 8x58RD that I shoot and make my brass from 45-90. I've converted .223 brass to 300 BO and .308 brass to 44 Auto Mag. I like casting bullets and I have opened up molds to slightly larger than original diameter. I have built several of those nasty old adult lego rifles in different calibers. None of those are your typical AR rifles.

Anyway, to each their own. You guys are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you.

[MOA]

I knew when I bought this RB it was going to be rechambered. I did it because I wanted to.

I'm not a collector per se. I have close to a hundred firearms. I bought them because I like them. To show I'm not a collector, I don't buy the most pristine I can find. I look for quality at a fair price. Collector prices are insane at times. I do buy guns of certain categories, such as bolt action 22 target rifles, rolling blocks, Browning 22 pistols, C&R youth rifles, etc.

I like tinkering. I am currently building a custom RB from an #5 smokeless action and buttstock/foream I bought in 2020. I have an 1867 Carl Gustaf 8x58RD that I shoot and make my brass from 45-90. I've converted .223 brass to 300 BO and .308 brass to 44 Auto Mag. I like casting bullets and I have opened up molds to slightly larger than original diameter. I have built several of those nasty old adult lego rifles in different rifles. None of those are your typical AR rifles.

Anyway, to each their own. You guys are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you.


Tuckerd1, what was your reasons for using 45-90 brass for your 8x58RD that was more advantageous then the 8x56 Hungarian brass other than the 45-90 is longer. The Hungarian is a few mm short of the original Swede brass. Reason I'm asking is I've two of the 8x58RD Swede rollers.

[tuckerd1]

Tuckerd1, what was your reasons for using 45-90 brass for your 8x58RD that was more advantageous then the 8x56 Hungarian brass other than the 45-90 is longer. The Hungarian is a few mm short of the original Swede brass. Reason I'm asking is I've two of the 8x58RD Swede rollers.
I read a lot about brass length. I tried to get length as long as I could. I considered 45-70, but it was short. Even with the right lenguth I still have the bullet set way out of the case.

[MOA]

I read a lot about brass length. I tried to get length as long as I could. I considered 45-70, but it was short. Even with the right lenguth I still have the bullet set way out of the case.

What is your final length using the 45-90?

[tuckerd1]

What is your final length using the 45-90?

2.275" is what I finally used. Can't remember why that number. They could have been made longer if needed. That was over 2 years ago when I made 100 cases.