Needed Range Day – Results Poor – But Enjoyed the Day

[MUSTANG]

January has been challenging for us. My wife and I had another round of the Forbidden Disease for two weeks, then I came down with a Sinus/Face Muscle infection that caused my face to swell up like a big pumpkin. After two weeks that has receded. Needed to get out of the house, so I went to the range to try some loads I had made up back before Christmas.

Loads were all 308 winchester, cast boolits using 30 grains of BLC2 Powder in each. Weather sucked – but I wanted out of the house. 15 degrees temp, winds went from about 5 miles an hour and after 5 rounds of 30 fired; the winds rapidly went up to 30mph with gusts of 40 mph, heavy snowfall at times almost white out conditions. An analogy was what we used to say in the USMC – “If it aint raining – you aint training”.

Loads:

NOE 311041 bullet with Carnuba Red lube. Amerimax .014 thick home made gas checks. Boolit sized to 0.309. Mixed Brass, necks expanded using RCBS .310 neck expander, and 30 Grains BLC2 Powder.

295702

NOE 311290 bullet with Driving Bands Powder Coated – but the Nose was not coated. Nose was sized to .301 using custom Lee Sizing Die. Amerimax .014 thick home made gas checks. Boolit sized to 0.309. Mixed Brass, necks expanded using RCBS .310 neck expander, and 30 Grains BLC2 Powder.


295703


RCBS 30 caliber 200 Grain Silohuett bullet with Driving Bands Powder Coated. Entire boolit was powder coated – water quenched after powder coating cured. Nose was sized to .301 using custom Lee Sizing Die. Amerimax .014 thick home made gas checks. Boolit sized to 0.309. Mixed Brass, necks expanded using RCBS .310 neck expander, and 30 Grains BLC2 Powder.

295704


Not satisfied with results at all. Easy to blame results on "Bad Weather Day" ; but I think I need to go with a .308 or .309 Neck expansion to get better boo lit to neck tension (Had really bad carbon on necks and down 1/3 length of case). I'll stay with .309 body & gas check sizing; but am thinking I WILL NOT size the bullet nose down as far as I did for these.

Oh well; another range day in a couple of weeks - hopefully it will be in mid-30s for that effort.

Any Day on the Range is a Good Day.

[charlie b]

Sorry about the health problems. Good shooting on a bad day!

I'd recommend you try powder coating the entire bullet and nose size right at bore dia. I use a .309 body size die and the bullets end up being .310. The bore of my .308 is .302 so I use a .302 nose size bushing (these are all NOE). The noses are and interference fit when chambered. I can remove them but they have marks on them from the rifling. I also seat the bullets so the drive bands are just touching the rifling.

I seat gas checks and size the bullets before PC (.309 and .299 nose). After PC I size again (.309 and .302 nose). The second nose size just kind of touches the die, more of a check to make sure there isn't too much PC on the bullet.

[MUSTANG]

I have several of the NOE sizing dies; but have given up on them for "Nose Sizing". Full boolit sizing works fine as the boolit is push entirely through. The NOE inserts are designed to where the Insert Holder snugs up to the machined shoulder in the NOE sizer die body when "Pushing Up". With Nose Sizing a boolit in the NOE sizer; one must "Drive" the Boolit out with a punch from the top. This puts all the stress on the small bras screw that keeps the Bushing in Place. Have found this to be a problem. This is why a few years ago I ordered a Custom Lee Push through sizing die in .301". When sizing the boolit nose; I use the RCBS press to push the boolit up into the sizer - controlling how far down the bullet nose is sized by how many turns the die is in the RCBS Press. These were sized with 4 full turns into the press. A lunch is then used to Knock the Boolit down out of the Lee Sizer die - resulting in only the nose being sized with that die. I am going to do some adjustments with how many turns for the Lee .302 sizing die when nose sizing the 311290 and the RCBS 200 Sil. this winter to see if there is some improvement in that area also.

I prefer to seat my Aluminum Gas checks after boolit powder coating and water quenching. Found that works best for me.

[dverna]

Cannot help on bullets/loads as I gave up on cast for .308 Win. I have no need to turn my .308’s into .30/30’s.

Sorry to hear you and your wife came down with “it”. The facial infection sounds scary!

Hope all is well soon.

[armoredman]

A bad day on the range beats a good day at work. Hope you both are back up to snuff ASAP!

[charlie b]

Yes, the bullet nose sizing requires that the bullet be pushed back out of the die. NOE designs the tool to do that. If you have to size the nose a lot it needs a whack with a mallet. I went a step further and made a lever arm on top of my press to push the bullets back out without a hammer. Works nicely. I have never had any problems with the set screw holding the die in place (the screw on mine is typical hardened steel). But, I don't try and size it more than a few thou.

When I ordered my mold from Accurate I made sure to specify the nose dia for powder coating. I learned this from trying Lyman 311299 bullets. They were 'tight' without any lube on them at all so adding PC would have meant a lot of sizing. OTOH, the Lee bullets were just about perfect with PC and no nose sizing.

FYI, some of my 210gn loads are near jacketed levels. Sierra max for 200gn bullets is 2450fps. Berger 215's are listed as 2350-2400max. I frequently load at 2200fps with the cast 210's. Not quite .30-30 :)

[MUSTANG]

To clarify why I use a Custom made Lee .301 die for Nose sizing; it might be beneficial to look at the NOE Nose Sizer set up.


295749



The NOE Nose and Body sizers are screwed ^ UP ^ into my RCBS Rock Chucker press. The “Pusher” at the left of the picture is inserted into the Ram just as a Shell Holder would be. The NOE .301 Nose Sizer is seen in the picture with a blue pen pointing to it. Notice the Nose sizer has a thick rim at the left that rests on a machined shoulder of the die when fully inserted into the Die Body. Then note the “Groove” machined in the NOE Nose Sizer just to the right of the rim on the nose sizer. This groove is there so that when fully inserted into the Die body, a hex head screw can be tightened down (Red Pen points to the Hex Head Screw), locking the Nose Sizer into the Die Body.

This process works great when one is “Pushing” up with the ram/pusher. The boolit is forced through the Die Body fully; with the Shoulder of the Sizer/Nose Sizer providing a hefty support to hold the Sizer/Nose Sizer in place.

Unfortunately; my experience is that when using an NOE Nose Sizer die, a weakness emerges. That Hex Screw (Red Pen pointing to it) is all that holds the Nose Sizer insert in place when nose sizing. To eject the partially sized (nose only) Boolit from the die set up; one must use a wooden dowel or punch to “Hammer” the nose sized boolit out of the die. That means ALL of the force to drive the boolit down & out of the die is on that small Hex Screw.

Anyway; this is why I abandon using the NOE sizer dies for Nose Sizing; because of that weak link area of the Hex Screw. A custom made Lee sizer die in .301 was about four times the cost of an NOE Nose Sizer button; but I have a uniform metal die with the Lee that will take the pressure of the ram driving the boolit nose into the sizer; and also stand up to driving the boolit back out of the Lee Die with a wooden dowel/punch by hammer strokes. I also use that same die to size boolits to .301 for Paper Patching in 308/30-40/30-06/300 Win Mag. I use a variety of NOE bushings for sizing .302 through .314 as well as other sizes.

This works best for me when nose sizing and avoids that weak Hex Screw connection. I continue to successfully use the dozen or so sizes of NOE boolit sizer inserts for a full boolit sizing; but not for Nose Sizing.

[charlie b]

I understand. I had doubts about it too but I have put some pretty good force on it without any ill effects. Since I mostly use it with the one bullet there isn't that much force on it anymore. If I had doubts I'd drill a recess in the size bushing for the setscrew to enter giving a full shear load.

The lever I put on top of my press was the big changer for me. Just a gently press on it and the bullet ejects cleanly.

I also modified the ram. Actually I don't use the ram. I made up a piece that goes on the press ram. It has a hole drilled in it to accept the .310 bullets. The hole is just deep enough to allow nose sizing to the drive bands. I just put the bullet in and push it until the adaptor touches to size bushing. Then lower it and eject the bullet. That way each bullet is exactly the same. I'll get a picture next time I make up some bullets.

[405grain]

Mustang: hope your feeling all the way better soon. After several attempts I gave up on nose sizing. When I'd powder coat bore riding boolits the nose would get so fat that they wouldn't chamber. I made up a nose sizing die for my rockchucker that used neck bushings as inserts. I even made up an ejector plate that would push the boolit back out of the die on the down stroke. Mechanically it worked great, but the results were poor. The noses would be exactly the right diameter, but they would no longer be concentric with the driving bands.

The next thing I tried was developing a method of powder coating just the driving bands and leaving the nose 'as cast". I've had really good results with that. It requires extra work, but most things that improve accuracy usually do.

I like BLC-2 with J word bullets in my 7.62x39 and 223, but it wouldn't be my top choice for cast loads. I haven't found the ultimate tack driving combination yet, but in my 308 I've had pretty good results with the RCBS 30-165-Sil and the Lyman 311299 using 2400, reloader #7, IMR-4198, AA5744, and Shooters World Buffalo. my experience has been that BLC-2 doesn't really like reduced loads that much. A lot of reloading manuals recommend magnum primers with BLC-2. I use it in smaller cases with jacketed bullet pressures and charges that give good load density, and have had no problems using standard rifle primers. The 308 case is a little more spacious so I'd recommend a different powder that burns faster, is easier to ignite, and burns well without having to fill the case. I'm not knocking BLC-2, it's good stuff, I'm just saying that you might get better groups with a different powder.

[MUSTANG]

405 Grain -

1. Thanks for the comments. The "experiments" are really revolving around the use fo BLC2 as it has been readily available the last two years at one of our Sporting Goods Store and at the lower end of cost per pound compared to others. I develop a lot of loads and "Mentor" a bunch of young (27 to 45 is young anymore) guys at the barber shop. Yes, I can go to the powder locker and pull "Better Powders" and use documentation form past load developments I have done with those powders. Problem is - "The Barber Shop Guys" can't buy those powders in these times so it does not work for them. Trying to find things that are more available and WILL work for what they can get their hand on.

2. You mention just coating the Driving Bands. I tried this and and it has been a "Pain in the Behind". The 2nd Target in post #1 is results from earlier this week with coating the driving bands only and applying Gas Check after curing. We get better weather; may retry those too using a neck sized to "Grip" the boolit better. Those heavily blackened necks and high shoulders on the brass are indications of gas blowing back between the Case and chamber walls - Neck not sizing and sealing fast enough/sufficiently. Cleaned all that brass yesterday or I would have taken a picture to show with this comment.

[dverna]

Just a suggestion. If those bullets, lubed and sized as you describe, are accurate with other powders, it would indicate BLC2 is the problem....as 405grain mentioned.

Is there a reason for staying under the minimum charges? Maybe going to a magnum primer would help get a better burn?