Antique Hawken rifle with brass hardware

[Sixgun Symphony]

This antique Hawken rifle sold at Morphy Auctions. It just goes to show that T/C Arms Company was not too far off.

https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/53073-6-402/?fbclid=IwAR3lmGXK6yj2yk_ybQ3WBfTZAtEvOtTQqJCtWAse 418ZLs-I_sthFvVWD0c

[HWooldridge]

Nice. Note how deep the rifling is...

[freakonaleash]

I don't think Sam Hawken built that gun. Looks like some of Tom Dawson's work. Tom did a lot of Hawken rifles and English sporting rifles Up through the 1980's.

[waksupi]

I don't think Sam Hawken built that gun. Looks like some of Tom Dawson's work. Tom did a lot of Hawken rifles and English sporting rifles Up through the 1980's.

I kind of lean that way, too, or at least a contemporary builder. It seems I see several anomalies that wouldn't have come out of the Hawken shop.

[longcruise]

I kind of lean that way, too, or at least a contemporary builder. It seems I see several anomalies that wouldn't have come out of the Hawken shop.

I felt that way too. Not based on any special knowledge on my part. Just don't seem right.

What are the anomalies that you see?

[freakonaleash]

For a simple starter, the screw heads are too good.

[HWooldridge]

Then it was clearly misrepresented in the auction.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Either way, a very nice rifle.

DG

[h8dirt]

Mighty hard to break a real Hawken through the wrist with as much iron as is in the through bolted tang and trigger plate. Hum?

[waksupi]

I felt that way too. Not based on any special knowledge on my part. Just don't seem right.

What are the anomalies that you see?

I don't recall seeing an original with that trigger guard. Totally wrong, looks like from one of the modern re-pops. And, what appears to be a copper nose cap. Geometry of the stock looks off, too. Fake. It MIGHT have an original barrel and lock.

[toot]

so it is a FAKE, not as posted for sale?

[waksupi]

so it is a FAKE, not as posted for sale?

I would say it has a very questionable pedigree. Look at pictures of any original Hawken, you can see the differences.

[Sixgun Symphony]

You are looking at a photograph of an original Hawken. They built custom rifles.

[Steppenwolf]

Lovely rifle, the lock inlet is a thing of beauty.

[waksupi]

You are looking at a photograph of an original Hawken. They built custom rifles.

How do you explain the modern made trigger guard and copper nose cap?

[Sixgun Symphony]

How do you explain the modern made trigger guard and copper nose cap?

You really mean it's "modern" because it's brass.

It is an antique rifle, they built custom rifles. End of story.

[freakonaleash]

You really mean it's "modern" because it's brass.

It is an antique rifle, they built custom rifles. End of story.

Hardly.:roll: I have built muzzleloading rifles for a living for 42 years. That "Hawken" is not any older that the 1970's. There are guys out there that can fake this stuff easy. TK Dawson used to stamp his guns S. HAWKEN all the time, I have seen several. Take this gun apart and you'll see some surprising things.

[Baltimoreed]

Thought real Hawken’s had two barrel wedges and steel trigger guards.

[waksupi]

You really mean it's "modern" because it's brass.

It is an antique rifle, they built custom rifles. End of story.

No, I mean because the design of the trigger guard on the picture isn't like what they used back then. The forward spur is in the wrong location, and the guard it's self is short. It looks like a Vincent guard. I have never seen an example with a copper nose cap by Hawkens, or anyone else.

[M-Tecs]

I have looked at a lot of pics of original Hawken rifles and viewed some in person. I scratch built my first one in 1979. I fully admit I have never held one and I am far from what would be considered an expert. As pointed out this one has several issues that indicate it's not an original Hawken.

[Beerd]

Where's John Baird when you need him?
..

[Sixgun Symphony]

How do you explain the modern made trigger guard and copper nose cap?

It is original, you just don't want to believe your own eyes that they used brass hardware. These are custom rifles, they took an order, got it done, and got paid.

[M-Tecs]

It is original, you just don't want to believe your own eyes that they used brass hardware. These are custom rifles, they took an order, got it done, and got paid.

While it may be original it doesn't match the known examples of actual Hawkens rifles on numerous levels. If I were going to purchase it I would value it at the level of an aged replica. I might be missing out but I won't be getting burned either.

[Sixgun Symphony]

While it may be original it doesn't match the known examples of actual Hawkens rifles on numerous levels. If I were going to purchase it I would value it at the level of an aged replica. I might be missing out but I won't be getting burned either.

It is an actual Hawken rifle. The umbrage here is that some people don't like brass hardware.

[waksupi]

It is an actual Hawken rifle. The umbrage here is that some people don't like brass hardware.

Looking at the whole thread, you are the only one who seems to have an issue with the brass. No one else has mentioned it once. It's not the brass, it's the wrong design of the trigger guard.

Talk yourself into believing whatever is needed to make yourself feel better for buying a suspicious gun, it was your money, not mine. You bought a fake, but are apparently happy with it.

[freakonaleash]

I've seen all kinds of Hawken rifles that weren't the standard iron mounted plains rifles. They made all sorts of brass mounted guns including squirrel rifles. The problem is this gun is not honestly aged.

[sharps4590]

I have this bridge I'd like to sell.......

[StrawHat]

To my eye, the stock looks wrong through the wrist. The forearm is a bit “off” also.

They may have built custom rifles but they used patterns. Or most gunsmiths did. I quit trying to build Hawkins after my first one. Very hard to get them correct.

Kevin

[pilot]

Also the auction house used the weasel word "appears". As in "It appears to be an original Hawken". They knew.

[Nazgul]

Just finished the new Hawken book by Woodfill. There is nothing in it anywhere near the original rifles architecture or fittings like this.

The trigger guard is from at least the 1970's. The barrel may be original to something of the Hawken era.

Don

[sharps4590]

No need to confuse anyone with facts when their mind is made up. And T/C was way off. They were close for an English sporting rifle, if a bit thick in the stock but, way off for a Hawken.