Lube vs PC

[ILostMyGoat]

Hey everyone, I’m new to casting in general and would like y’all’s opinion on lube vs PC. I’ve heard and read some conflicting stuff about PC not being good enough to cut lube out and lube not bringing anything to the table that a quality PC can’t do. So what can lube do and what can PC do? What applications would they each be best suited for? Thanks for the help!


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[Kosh75287]

I haven't done any statistically rigorous comparisons, but I SUSPECT that equal-weight polymer-coated bullets tend to develop higher velocities than conventionally lubed cast lead bullets (all other things being the same). I was shooting 14.8/2400/158 gr. SWC-PC from a 6" barreled S&W M28 .357 Magnum revolver and getting 75-90 f/s higher velocities than the same load using 158 gr. LSWC. I had my notes with me at the range, and when I saw the difference in velocities, I was convinced that I'd overloaded the PC rounds. I quit shooting them, put them away with a big note that said I needed to pull the ammo. When I did, they were all the right charge weight, 14.8 gr. of Alliant 2400. Same everything else, except the coating on the bullet.
We're only talking about 6 or 7 percent more velocity, so I didn't exactly reinvent the wheel. But the chambers and bore in my revolver looked great, and the extra velocity didn't exactly SUCK.
As to brands of PC-coated bullets, I like Hoosier and Missouri Bullet Co. If you succeed in turning out PC projectiles as good as theirs, you've truly accomplished something.

[derek45]

I sold my Lube-a-matic and went fully powder coat a few years ago.

I also much prefer commercial coated over wax lubed.

[redriverhunter]

I am not what you would call an expert but here is my opinion. I like pc bullets because they are almost like jacketed bullets. Most of my cast is in pistol rounds. I have only used lee alox and pan lubed, both of these can be a bit of a mess, the alox would get built up in the seating die, and pan lube worked but when I ran them them through the lee sizer die in ended up lube in places I did not want it. Maybe one day I will use a layman or rcbs lube sizer and find what I have been missing, have not seen the need yet.

[dverna]

Depends. What are you trying to do? Plinking bullets for pistols or accurate (whatever that means) rifle bullets at over 2200fps? Are you processing a couple of hundred of different bullets at a time, or thousands?

If one was the best for every use, it would be used by everyone.

[kayala]

I’ve started casting last year and went straight to PC. Pretty easy process and I’ve had good results right from the get go, still bought lube-a-matic, cause PC adds some thickness and my 700 grainers won’t fit into cylinder.

[Sasquatch-1]

This is a practical example, no science what-so-ever behind it.

I shoot a 2x4 match once a month during the summer using a Rugar Redhawk in .44. I am only using 7.5 grns of Unique with a 250 grn. cast bullet. I will fire anywhere between 25 and 50 of these in one to two minutes so the barrel does get hot. With bullets lubed traditionally I will get some leading in the forcing cone area. With powder coat I can usually run a dry patch through the bore and remove almost all of the fouling.

If in doubt you can do both.

[white eagle]

I got rid of the greasy kid stuff long ago and all I do is pc
like Brill cream a little dab will do ya

[Sasquatch-1]

Brill cream a little dab will do ya

I believe this is wasted on some of our younger members.:groner:

[Tar Heel]

I believe this is wasted on some of our younger members.:groner:

Plop Plop Fizz Fizz

[gwpercle]

PC (powder coating) or CL (conventional lubrication) are just two ways to do the same thing .
I started before PC was invented , Lyman 450 was bought in 1970 ...
I never changed to PC because ... I size my boolits , that said one cycle (in -out) produces a sized , lubricated and if needed gas check seated boolit ...that fast , pull down , press lube handle , pull up ... Ready To Load .

I looked into the PC process and realized you have to size the boolit , sometimes twice , powder coat it , stand each boolit up on a tray , get the tray into an oven , bake the boolits , let cool and sometimes the finished boolit is too large in the nose or ogive to chamber ...
I just don't see any time being saved by PC'ing and I see size problems created .

I can make my own lubricants ... I have to buy powders for coating .

It's two different ways to do something... If you could borrow a Lube/Sizer and do 1K boolits and then do 1K PC'ed ... it sure would let you know which way is right for you .
Gary

[GregLaROCHE]

Anything you can do with traditional lubing you can do with PC and more. It’s good for pushing higher velocities with a softer alloy too. Make sure you get a powder that has a good reputation for working with the shake and bake method, that most of use use. Not all powders are the same.

[ILostMyGoat]

Ah all great great info thanks guys! One other thought I’ve had though is if I should (or even can) use a gas check on a powder coated bullet?


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[Finster101]

"I can make my own lubricants ... I have to buy powders for coating ."

So you don't have to buy any ingredients to make that lube?

Gas checks work as well on PC as well as conventional lube.

[Charlie Horse]

PC (powder coating) or CL (conventional lubrication) are just two ways to do the same thing .
I started before PC was invented , Lyman 450 was bought in 1970 ...
I never changed to PC because ... I size my boolits , that said one cycle (in -out) produces a sized , lubricated and if needed gas check seated boolit ...that fast , pull down , press lube handle , pull up ... Ready To Load .

I looked into the PC process and realized you have to size the boolit , sometimes twice , powder coat it , stand each boolit up on a tray , get the tray into an oven , bake the boolits , let cool and sometimes the finished boolit is too large in the nose or ogive to chamber ...
I just don't see any time being saved by PC'ing and I see size problems created .

I can make my own lubricants ... I have to buy powders for coating .

It's two different ways to do something... If you could borrow a Lube/Sizer and do 1K boolits and then do 1K PC'ed ... it sure would let you know which way is right for you .
Gary

This is me, word for word.
If I want long-range rifle bullets, I'll use my lubrisizer. For plinking I'll squirt some Lee Liquid Alox on a container of Lee Tumble Lube bullets, then shake, dry, and shoot.
I've been powder coating bullets for my Glock, and for my Rossi lever action 357 mag.
If I was just starting up I wouldn't buy a lubrisizer unless I was going to shoot long range/accuracy.

[Charlie Horse]

The downside to powder coating is the girth it adds, then the accuracy you lose by having to size too much off the bullet.
My best accuracy comes from shooting 9mm (undersize) bullets in a 357 bore. Powder coating adds some girth to the bullet, then a light sizing, .001-.002", makes them just right for a 38/357.

I'm waiting for Lee to sell a 147 grain 9mm mold.

[toallmy]

Ah all great great info thanks guys! One other thought I’ve had though is if I should (or even can) use a gas check on a powder coated bullet?


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You may need to put the gas check on before powder coating and crimp it on , just so it will fit on the base .

[Winger Ed.]

Plop Plop Fizz Fizz

"Hey. You're Mona's kid aren't ya"?

[popper]

I shoot a 145gr GC out of BO. BLL(2 coats) & PCd. I cannot tell any real difference in accuracy or fps. Same casting session, same loading session with same load. Same chrony, same day.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Tried PC to solve some problems, leading in a 9mm, extractor fouling in a 77/357, and cylinder binding in a SP101. Fixed them all. Decided to give it a go in rifle calibers. Now I shoot relatively soft alloys, probably 8-9 bhn at 1.5-2 moa up to 2300 fps. It really helps stretch disappearing wheel weights. I shake (no bbs) in a polypropylene tub, sift in a steel mesh tray, and pop them in the oven for 20 minutes. Dump them out and separate the few that are stuck together. Let them cool, add a gas check if needed, then size. 1 lb of powder (good for thousands of boolits), a butter tub, a steel mesh tray, and a $5-10 thrift store oven and you are in business. Maybe a thermometer to check your oven. My only complaint is that it adds diameter to the gas check shank, and I have to tap my checks on vs having them just click into place.

These are exceptional groups in the thread below, but 1.5 moa is quite repeatable.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?437111-Joy-with-the-30-06-and-2400

[wv109323]

Adv. Of powder coating:
Smaller initial investment over buying a sizer lubricater.
Minimal xpenses for future coating
Bullet diameter can be increased over mold diameter( if as cast is not big enough)
Lead alloy/hardness not as critical
Pretty colored boolits
If bullets are stood up on end bullet bases are smoother.
DISadvantages of PC
Longer process time over my Star lubrisizer.
Adv. Of lubing
Quicker than pc'ing
Different lubes can be used
I have found no better or worse accuracy in either process.

[dimaprok]

PC (powder coating) or CL (conventional lubrication) are just two ways to do the same thing .
I started before PC was invented , Lyman 450 was bought in 1970 ...
I never changed to PC because ... I size my boolits , that said one cycle (in -out) produces a sized , lubricated and if needed gas check seated boolit ...that fast , pull down , press lube handle , pull up ... Ready To Load .

I looked into the PC process and realized you have to size the boolit , sometimes twice , powder coat it , stand each boolit up on a tray , get the tray into an oven , bake the boolits , let cool and sometimes the finished boolit is too large in the nose or ogive to chamber ...
I just don't see any time being saved by PC'ing and I see size problems created .

I can make my own lubricants ... I have to buy powders for coating .

It's two different ways to do something... If you could borrow a Lube/Sizer and do 1K boolits and then do 1K PC'ed ... it sure would let you know which way is right for you .
Gary

You make your own lube but that takes time and you need to buy ingredients. PC is inexpensive like $10/lb from local shop and some will even give you free leftovers. It takes very little to coat. You can tumble 1000 bullets at once with PC and bake all at once too. No need to stand on base nonsense and than you can push through size all in 1 pass, goes a lot faster too if you mount your press upside down and here is big advantage for me, I can store all the bullets in the can without the lube getting smeared, with traditional blue I have to stack them in a single layer and I won't use bullet feeder to load them. Another thing no smoke with PC when you shoot.

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[greenjoytj]

I am thinking PC may not work well when powder charging with black powder, particularly If you want to shoot more than one shot. Maybe I’m wrong?
Truly I don’t know enough about PC. My investment in my Redding Lubri-sizer mean I will keep using it.

[farmbif]

I dont know, there might be some benefits to powder coating, maybe I'll get some plastic bb's and try it some day, but there's is just something about pulling a bullet from lube sizer with the shiny bands around the outside. and from what I understand even if you bake on powder paint you still have to size the bullets. and what ive been doing works for me, I make sure I size bullets big and use good lube and gas checks on gas check bullets and I've never spent more than just a few minutes cleaning a barrel.
I probably have more $$ spent in different size lube size dies and punches than was invested in the lube sizer. and to switch all over to a push through size system for PC would cost a few hard earned dollars.

[Baltimoreed]

Do both. The huge advantage that pc has over lube is that you can use any old junk mystery lead to cast your boolits and then pc them without having leading issues. And they’re pretty too.

[dverna]

You make your own lube but that takes time and you need to buy ingredients. PC is inexpensive like $10/lb from local shop and some will even give you free leftovers. It takes very little to coat. You can tumble 1000 bullets at once with PC and bake all at once too. No need to stand on base nonsense and than you can push through size all in 1 pass, goes a lot faster too if you mount your press upside down and here is big advantage for me, I can store all the bullets in the can without the lube getting smeared, with traditional blue I have to stack them in a single layer and I won't use bullet feeder to load them. Another thing no smoke with PC when you shoot.

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Cost is so minimal with either method that it should not enter into the decision. Current cost of White Label lubes (Vendor on this site) is less than $3/stick and I get about 1000 .357 bullets per stick. I can lube and size 1000/hr with the Star. If I saved the entire $3 by using PC it would not be worth the hassle of coating and cooking 1000 bullets unless I could shoot them unsized. And if I could shoot the bullets unsized I would use BLL.

Nothing wrong with PC and a great way to start, but it is not perfect for everyone. No system is.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I do both and have very good results with both methods. I was into tumble lubing at the start so many of my molds are that style and won't work with CL. I enjoy my lubrizer and home made lube. I tried pan lubing first before buying it. I PC for 9mm and most .357. My .44's I CL. PC works well and is easy to do of you research the process.

[skeet1]

I guess I'm just old school I have been loading CL for about 50 years and have been very satisfied with the results. To me, it just seems quicker and less time-consuming. If it's not broken don't fix it.

[ILostMyGoat]

Do both. The huge advantage that pc has over lube is that you can use any old junk mystery lead to cast your boolits and then pc them without having leading issues. And they’re pretty too.

That is something I’ve been tossing around in my head. 1) Would there be benefits to PC then lubing? 2) what application would PC be better suited towards? 3) what application would lube be better suited for?


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[dverna]

That is something I’ve been tossing around in my head. 1) Would there be benefits to PC then lubing? 2) what application would PC be better suited towards? 3) what application would lube be better suited for?


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If you "need" to PC and then lube something is wrong. Might be a way to salvage bullets that have been poorly PC'ed. I have not heard of anyone on this forum doing that as their SOP.

Sounds like you want to PC so go for it. It is not a huge investment and there are plenty of folks here to walk you through any issues you come up against.

IMO reports tend towards lubed bullets being more accurate, but most people cannot shoot or cast well enough to tell the difference. Good enough is good enough.

For some folks, PC offers no outstanding benefits to warrant changing from traditional lubes. For others, it was a game changer. Funny how that works....LOL.

There are hundreds of pages to sort through on PC, HiTek, BLL and lubes...and the bottom line...NO ONE can tell you what is best for you because we have no idea what calibers you are working with, quantities to process, or expectations you have. And even worse, even if you gave us all the details, most folks would just tell you what works for them. Funny how that works...LOL

My advice...go cheap and see if it works. Keeps your investment small and you learn from it. If I was starting out, I would try BLL based on my needs. YMMV

[GregLaROCHE]

Some people do lube PCed boolits. When I am shooting BP I use lubed plain boolits or PCed. Sometimes I’ll put some lube on the PCed ones, but not usually. I do like to use a grease cookie most of the time too.

[Shadow9mm]

I have tried traditional lube in the grooves, as well as tumble lube. Right now I getting into powder coating. So far, powder coating is the way to go IMHO. However I believe I saw fortunecookie45 powder coat AND lube the grooves on some bullets for a rifle.... may have to give that a try as well, just for kicks and grins.

[Sasquatch-1]

I believe it was mentioned somewhere in this thread that this was for a black powder cartridge. Just remember that with a black powder cartridge or muzzleloader, the lube is what keeps the fouling soft.

[Tazman1602]

Plop Plop Fizz Fizz

Oh what a relief it is….

Darn, just dated myself…

Art

[elmacgyver0]

I believe it was mentioned somewhere in this thread that this was for a black powder cartridge. Just remember that with a black powder cartridge or muzzleloader, the lube is what keeps the fouling soft.

I wasn't aware you used conventional lube for black powder cartridges.
I thought it was something different.
Learn something every day!

[rbuck351]

I have used CL for over 50 years and after getting a Star sizer, most of my issues with CL have been cured. Although I have figured out a way to size my boolits up for those molds that cast undersize, it's much easier to PC them up. The issue I have with PC is it's quite a bit slower but if I can figure out how to speed up the process, especially the baking of the tall 22cal boolits, it may become my go to method for rifle boolits. I don't see PC becoming my go to for pistol coating. I did just get an electrostatic gun that I haven't a chance to use yet so I will see.

[Char-Gar]

I have been casting and loading them since 1960 and have a large amount of reloading, casting, lubing and sizing equipment and supplies. I broke the code on alloy temper, powders etc, etc, a very long time ago. I can think of no good reason to start over again with another concept.

However, if I was starting over again, I would at least consider powder coating.

[gloob]

PC will protect the bullet from some degree of gas cutting and resulting lead fouling. But if you care to sort out the kinks for your particular firearms, you can usually stop that gas cutting from happening in the first place.

PC will mean your bullets are shootable in a wider variety of your firearms. Some of the solutions mentioned above means that ammo for one firearm might not chamber in another.

PC doesn't smoke in revolvers and blowbacks like lube does. In closed breech pistols, you can also get smoke from bullet lube, but that's one of the aforementioned problems that can usually be solved. (It goes hand in hand with gas cutting... too much gas getting around the bullet before it fills the bore).

[Sasquatch-1]

I wasn't aware you used conventional lube for black powder cartridges.
I thought it was something different.
Learn something every day!

It does have to be a non-petroleum base lube. It can be as simple a saliva. I have used straight Crisco, Mink oil, Bore Butter and I am currently using a bee's wax and lamb tallow mix.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I wasn't aware you used conventional lube for black powder cartridges.
I thought it was something different.
Learn something every day!

Well, you use conventional black powder lube. BP lube contains no petro chemicals. 50/50 beeswax and crisco or olive oil is common.

[Charlie Horse]

I'm an old timer who just got into powder coating. I love it.
It is another tool in the toolbox. I'll still TL pistol plinking boolits, especially the Lee boolits that don't need sizing.
I'll still use my librisizer for long range rifle.

[justindad]

I gotta say shooting is a lot more fun with smoke rolling out the end of the barrel.

[bangerjim]

No smoke, No greasy mess, No leading, Easy to apply, Lasts forever..................now, what was your question about modern-day PC'ing over greasy old-school lubes??????????????????!

Threw all my alox, JPW, and greasy lube sticks out at lease 8 years ago.

I rest my case.

[rintinglen]

I tumble lube my pistol boolits, lube my rifle boolits, but I can't see any benefit in terms of time savings to PC. It may well prevent leading, but that is not generally a problem for me. My boolits did not come out as pretty as some of those depicted, they were spotty and not evenly coated. They shot ok, but the process was time consuming without producing any real improvement for my uses.

Baking the boolits and letting them cool robs them of hardness and takes a bit longer than just dumping the sized boolits into a peanut butter jar or plastic coffee can swirling and then letting them dry. I have run LLA lubed boolits to 2300 FPS from a 30-40 without leading.

[59sharps]

I am thinking PC may not work well when powder charging with black powder, particularly If you want to shoot more than one shot. Maybe I’m wrong?
Truly I don’t know enough about PC. My investment in my Redding Lubri-sizer mean I will keep using it.
YOU WILL STILL NEED TO LUBE. PC is not a lube Black Powder Fouling still needs to be delt with keeping it soft. PC may help if you are getting leading in your BP guns.
I'm playing with it in my henry 1860 44-40 BP loads. for leading issues

[59sharps]

lube for black powder will not have petroleum in it.

[brassrat]

I loaded 3X50 boxes of RN .45 ACP, just yesterday. I have a combo of a couple of jars with a few stick lubes, dissolved. I use JJ One-Step,also and Alox has its own jar with a solvent of some-sort. Using a fan and a 2cups, in the time to prime and charge the cases, the boolets were plenty dry to load. Really easy and saved a lot from PC. They have a nice, all over, coat with filled up lube grooves.

[dogdoc]

Late reply but hard to beat simplicity of cast, size/lubricate,load,shoot. All the steps involved with pc just don’t make sense to me. I still work full time plus and prefer to spend spare time shooting not reloading/casting so anything to minimize time is important to me. Plus I love the smell of burning Alox/beeswax!

[gwpercle]

Late reply but hard to beat simplicity of cast, size/lubricate,load,shoot. All the steps involved with pc just don’t make sense to me. I still work full time plus and prefer to spend spare time shooting not reloading/casting so anything to minimize time is important to me. Plus I love the smell of burning Alox/beeswax!

:goodpost:

:drinks:

Gary

[elmacgyver0]

In my humble opinion PC is the way to go for pistol bullets.
Nothing wrong with lube, but I just like PC, it's great to have options!

[Targa]

I lubed bullets for quite a while, still have quite a few traditionally lubed bullets, there was just something I really enjoyed about it. I have since gone to PC which has been great in reference to not gunking up dies and makes for a less smoky in-door range session. At the outdoor range I really enjoy the traditionally lubed bullets for the bit of smoke that is put out.

[BentSprings]

You can add me to the I sold my messy grease and wax and went full PC list. After accurately running thousands of bullets from subsonic to over 3K FPS with PC I was very convinced. Took me awhile to emotionally let the STAR and all the dies go down the road. Empirical evidence says that PC just plain rules. To each their own though. Some people like to play in the mud.

[nueces5]

I grab my pistol boolits, just finished casting and throw them in an old ice cream bowl marked with the number 5 recycling.
I put them all standing up on a tray (I can't with my Obsessive Compulsive Disorder).
And after I bake them, I run them through Lee's sizer. For 15 days or more to the box of boolits, with a paper where it says the date and the hardness.

For my rifle boolits, I gascheck before baking (imagine if I have an Obsessive Disorder with pistol boolits, it's much worse obsessive with rifle boolits!!)
After the PC is dry, I run the boolits through a can of Lyman's orange magic, and then run them through the Die Lee.
So I get more or less 1.5 MOA precision at 2300 FPS.
It's the way I managed to make a 308 boolit hit at 600 meters.

[Hickok]

Powder coat for me is the way to go.

The benefits are too numerous to ignore.:awesome:

[dverna]

Late reply but hard to beat simplicity of cast, size/lubricate,load,shoot. All the steps involved with pc just don’t make sense to me. I still work full time plus and prefer to spend spare time shooting not reloading/casting so anything to minimize time is important to me. Plus I love the smell of burning Alox/beeswax!

When I was working, it was the same for me. Even now that I am retired, casting and reloading are what I do to shoot and not a "pleasurable pastime". I would PC or HiTek if those methods were either faster (and that is not possible) or provided some advantage. I shoot outdoors so lack of smoke is not important. The only other pluses for another method would be lack of leading (which I do not get with lube anyway) or greater accuracy. WRT accuracy, I use cast bullets for pistol cartridges so any small difference in accuracy is moot.

I am a KISS reloader/caster. I run over 1000 of the same bullets at a time through the Star. I have standardized on one bullet in each pistol caliber and only cast/load three calibers 9mm, .40 and .38/.357. Die set up is not an issue like it would be if I ran three or four different bullets in every caliber. With multiple bullets and more calibers, set up time becomes a factor; and a slower method, that has no set up time, can be advantageous.

There is no "one perfect way" for all. The person loading over a dozen different bullets and shooting 300-400 of each bullet (4-5000 rounds a year), has a different situation than a someone shooting 15,000 bullets, with 12,000 in two calibers. Even though I have a Star for my "bulk bullets", I have two Lyman sizers and am set up for BLL as well. When I decide to experiment with rifle bullets, the Lyman units will let me play around with different lubes without screwing up the Star.

For new casters, these are factors to consider as they make choices. Where are you now and where do you want to be? Will you have dozens of molds to play with, or are you focused on shooting one or two calibers in quantity? And how are you wired? Is casting/reloading fun or a means to an end? Do you want to experiment and have different loads for every caliber and every gun or are you a KISS shooter.

I have seven .38/.357 weapons and currently use one load in all of them. I will be adding one more load but that will be it! I have five (soon to be six) 9mm's and one load. I am at the extreme end of the KISS spectrum, but most people are not. What I do works for me after 50 years of hacking around. YMMV.

My advice for most new casters is simple. If you will be shooting a few different pistol and rifle bullets, get a used Lyman sizer (typically $100) and lube (X-lox, BAC, or Carnuba Red) from LsStuff. Even if you move to other methods, you will lose nothing if you decide to sell it, and it will be a cheap and effective backup to whatever method you decide on later.

One factor not mentioned much is the off gassing of baked on coatings. I like to lube and size in the basement and worry about it. Another plus for traditional lubes in my situation.

[farmerjim]

I started casting and reloading 58 years ago when wheel weights were 5 cents a pound from the tire store. I stopped casting when I moved to Canada.
I started again when I moved to Saint Francisville and had a shooting range in my back yard. I got my lube sizer out and went to town with my new lee dripomatic. Then I saw Hi-Tek boolits.
I started hi-tecking and it was great. I could cast, Hi-Tek, size, and store large qualities of boolits ready to load. Then came powder coating. Wow, even easier than Hi-Tek. Plus If I want to use a boolet in a caliber that is 2 or 3 thousands ( ie 9mm to 38 or 30 cal to 303) I can just put 2 coats of PC on and size for the larger caliber. No messy lube to get all over everything.
I still have and sometimes use BLL and Recluse lube, but 98% of my boolits are PC'ed. It is just easier for me.

[35 Rem]

I started casting in the late 1970's and bought a RCBS sizer/lube press back then. Have been adding dies to it all these years and also have years and years of lube set aside. No real incentive to change now. I do see one potential case where I could possibly try PC and that is for shooting real soft bullets in a hollow point where the velocity was starting to get above what conventional lubed bullets can withstand yet I were forced to use soft alloy for expansion. As far as the smoke from lube, I shoot 100% outdoors and I would sorely miss that if I pulled the trigger and didn't get to smell smoke.

[Charlie Horse]

Powder coat for me is the way to go.

The benefits are too numerous to ignore.:awesome:

I've been casting for about 40-some years. I've been powder coating for a year or so. The more I powder coat, the better I like it.

[slim1836]

I started out tumble lubing, then powder coating, and then acquired a 450 lube/sizer. I use all. I like to compare the results of each in the field and let my weapon decide which application is best. YMMV.

Slim