A source of pure TIN

[bangerjim]

You might not have thought of this but if you enjoy higher $$ end corked and sealed-with-foil single malts and whiskeys like I do, that seal, cap, and neck band are pure Sn! Not aluminum or lead foils.......but Sn. Cheap bottles use Al foil and/or Al screw caps with plastic film seals. You can tell just by the weight and feel!

I just got done re-melting and fluxing about 2 years' worth from me and several friends that donate them to me, and I ended up with a little over 4.5 oz of PURE TIN. Not bad for something most people just throw away.

I really do not need it, as I have currently over 200# of pure I use for casting.

But everybody out there seems to be in a desperate panic/search for Sn, so there is a source for a little. Will sweeten several boolits!

Talk to your friends and relatives that enjoy a really good quality "wee dram" now & then! And have them start saving the bottle foils for you.

banger

[slim1836]

Wish I knew people that could afford the finer spirits like that.

Nice to know though.

Slim

[contender1]

Could you share some of the brands & such that use these tin seals?

[BattleRife]

You might not have thought of this but if you enjoy higher $$ end corked and sealed-with-foil single malts and whiskeys like I do, that seal, cap, and neck band are pure Sn!

What evidence do you have that those are tin? I have no trouble believing that tin would have been used a century ago, but it is such a rare and expensive metal now that I would have thought an application like that would have transitioned to something else a long time ago.

[Springfield]

I bought and melted down half a 55 gallon drum ofdamaged foils one, and they were not tin but lead. Made nice balls for my muzzle loader.

[imashooter2]

Hard to believe that they would put lead foil on food products any time in the last 150 years. X-ray foils sound more likely.

As for the whiskey foils, high end wines and liquors have traditionally used tin. These days I wouldn’t bet the rent on it though. That said, while Banger and I may have butted heads once or twice, I’m fairly certain he can tell the difference between tin, aluminum and lead. If he says his foils were tin, that’s the way I would bet.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Years ago, when I started casting, I read somewhere the some wine makers still used Tin for the foil capsule. I started collecting them.

Back then, I would enjoy some wine regularly. In fact I had a part time job with a Liquor store, which had (and still has) regular wine tastings. While most bottles I opened were in the less than $20 range, I have been to tastings were $100 bottles were opened.
When I attempted to melt down all my foils, I found they were all aluminum.

Now, I'm not saying Banger is incorrect about the whiskey foils, I just want to add my 2¢, that I can't imagine you'll find any Tin on a wine bottle.

[bangerjim]

I definitely know the difference between Sn and Pb! And how they melt and behave. The foils are heavy and once melted into a nice mirror bright puddle and cooled, it is very hard and shiny like all my Sn hoard. Without an x-ray gun analysis, I would not 100% be sure it is pure Sn, but it sure looks and feels and behaves like all the gobs of Sn I have ever melted in the past. And it is definitely NOT Al! Only wines and cost-effective booze brands use Al foils and screw caps. Every bottle of wine my wife has ever opened (I hate wine) has been Aluminum foil. I have never seen a CA wine without an Al foil on it, so we cannot really use CA beverages as an example.

Brands????? All are melted now, but I normally save the ones from any single malt scotch whiskey over $60-70 a bottle. Same with my friends.

[bangerjim]

Have you ever tried to look up the Brinell hardness info on tin? A real number is about as elusive as finding the real stuff at a flea market!

I have found sources that give it a value from 8 to over 75! Something smells there. I always figured it was somewhere in the 14-16 range.

So.................I whipped out my NIST calibrated CabineTree-style tester. I have many ingots of PURE Sn (not lame pewter or solder) that are foundry cast and stamped so I know there are not some lame SAECO mold of a mixed soup or pewter some clown melted.

Some wanted proof? Here is what I can offer to any doubting Thomas out there:

1) PURE TIN, if you have ever actually seen any, is bright and shiny with a slight yellow hue to it. It "cries" when you bend it. (yes, look it up if you don't believe me!). My puddle of bottle foil melts is about 1/4" thick and it is easy to hear the "tin cry" when bent.

But it is hard! No finger nail scratches here! So........

2) I checked a few of the PURE Sn ingots I have with my Cabine tester and it yielded a reading of 14-15 hardness repeatedly. Then I tested my puddle of melted foils. SURPRISE! It read 14-15 also. The color is bright and shiny with that unique yellow hue. and it cries when flexed!

3) The foils melted at around 450 °F. The documented melting point of pure Sn is 449.47°F.


I rest my case. Believe the facts or not. :drinks:

For other "off the beaten path" sources for Sn, look for old metal organ pipes (normally 50Sn/50Pb) and old beverage cooling coils (pure Sn). I have found those as excellent, yet rather rare, sources of Sn and alloys.

Tin, like gold, is where you find it!

[bowfin]

Could you share some of the brands & such that use these tin seals?

Brands????? All are melted now, but I normally save the ones from any single malt scotch whiskey over $60-70 a bottle. Same with my friends.

No, we don't want the names, we want you to share the actual stuff!:2 drunk buddies:

[Silvercreek Farmer]

All mine come with plastic…

[contender1]

Thanks for sharing the info.

[kevin c]

I was gifted the reject foils from a high end winery by a shooting buddy who knows I cast. My wife has a wine connoisseur friend who occasionally brings over hideously expensive wines to try. All the foils are as bangerjim described: heavy, much heavier than what I’d expect from aluminum. Samples melted into molten pewter at liquidus temp.

It’s good to know that there’s a bit of tin to be salvaged (maybe a quarter’s worth?). I don’t think I’d start shelling out $100+ per bottle just for the tin, though. Cheaper to buy pure from RotoMetals. But I don’t appreciate the good stuff so what do I know.

[Lloyd Smale]

youd have to stay drunk for a long time to alloy ten lbs of lead.

[imashooter2]

youd have to stay drunk for a long time to alloy ten lbs of lead.

:drinks:

[bangerjim]

youd have to stay drunk for a long time to alloy ten lbs of lead.

Not if you have 10-12 people saving them for you! ;)

[Outpost75]

If I want pure tin I buy nodules of the real thing from Roto Metals. No fooling around.

[bangerjim]

If I want pure tin I buy nodules of the real thing from Roto Metals. No fooling around.

Get where and how you want. I am not going to break the bank with bottle foils. As I said I have over 200# of pure factory cast (and others) Sn ingots to last me for quite a while! I do not mess with pewter.

I just posted this as FYI information most do not realize is out there. No, it is not a FAST source of Sn for those of you that shoot 1K+ rounds a week. Some may find it useful. But is interesting where stuff like that can pop up in the most unlikely places. I always thought bottle foils were either aluminum or plastic. Not the case. :bigsmyl2:

As of this moment, 505 people have read this post in only ~48 hours, so some on here must have an interested in broadening their knowledge base.

[Ateam]

I posted on this a few years ago, eagle rare I believe it was. I called them and they confirmed it was indeed tin.

[bangerjim]

Thank you kevin c and Ateam for that confirmation.

I will keep track of the single malts and other libations I open in the future that are Sn. You cannot tell by just looking at the seal without opening it up and feeling the weight and texture of the cap and foil.

And I sure do not need any more bottles open right now! All the holiday entertaining was enough! :2 drunk buddies:

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have run in to that real tin foil recently on a champagne bottle. Did not think to save it.

[downzero]

Not if you have 10-12 people saving them for you! ;)

I just finished a bottle from 2017. It'd take me a long time to come up with any meaningful amount even if this is true.

[bangerjim]

I just finished a bottle from 2017. It'd take me a long time to come up with any meaningful amount even if this is true.

But is sure fun getting there! :2 drunk buddies:

[MarkK]

Lead capsules were used many years ago on wine (probably spirits too). Back in the day, wine was tested for lead acetate due to migration of wine through cork and subsequent oxidation to acetic acid (vinegar). Eventually lead capsules were replaced by tin, aluminum and plastic. Higher end wines will have tin capsules - it feels heavier and shinier than aluminum.

P.S. The Romans added lead salts to sweeten wine. Might explain why children would eat paint chips…

[kevin c]

…lead salts…sweeten…Might explain why children would eat paint chips…

Yup, though I can’t say I’ve chewed on any windowsills to confirm what I was taught.

Retired pediatrician.

[bangerjim]

I have been saving the PURE SN foil wraps and cork covers from higher end Scotches and Whiskys and have had friends and relatives that enjoy a good dram that does not come in an aluminum screw top bottle to save all their bottle top wraps and cork covers for me. Well...... harvest time came today when I gathered up about 4 months of them and melted them down in my little Lee 10# pot. After the burning paint had cleared and the melt was fluxed and reduced (beeswax), I was left with around 15 ounces of PURE Sn! It would have gone to the dump otherwise.

Now who is saying those aren't TIN coverings on those high-end bottles & are not capped with pure TIN?

Just ask your friends and relatives to save them for you. You can easily pick out the Al by the weight and metal color. Sn has that mellow yellow glow to it, rings like a bell when you drop an ingot, and is always shiny and bright.

Now I can add this small offering to the several hundreds of pounds of pure Sn I have.

Keep a weather eye out! It is out there.


299438

[rintinglen]

Obviously, I need to hang out with a better class of drunks!:kidding:

[Kosh75287]

Melt down a known volume of those things and weigh it. You'll know in a hurry if it's tin, lead, or some mix.

[bangerjim]

Melt down a known volume of those things and weigh it. You'll know in a hurry if it's tin, lead, or some mix.

It has been proven to be 100% Sn. They would NEVER use poisonous Pb or any alloy of it in any food packaging. And......hardness (with my Cabine certified tester) is the same as all the hundreds of pounds of pure Sn I have in the stores! And some bottlers state outright they still use Sn for tops.

Historically, all EU scotches and whisky(ey)s (and some wines) were sealed with pure tin foil caps and wraps. Many of the high-end bottlers in the EU still carry on the tradition. Some wines from France are sealed the same way.

I do not understand why you people doubt this. Cheap (especially American) whiskey, booze, and wine are all sealed with either plastic cut-off tops or aluminum screw-off tops. And anyone out there (that messes with castable metals like we do) can easily tell the difference.................without any weighing or analysis of any kind!!!!

Just check around.

[imashooter2]

Oh come on… is there still some question over whether Banger knows what tin is or not? :groner:[smilie=b:

[BattleRife]

Now who is saying those aren't TIN coverings on those high-end bottles & are not capped with pure TIN?

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you shared any evidence of what these are made of?

Did you measure the melting point? Get an XRF reading? Check the density?

Because all I see is a post where you say it is tin, then posts questioning how you know that, then another post where you declare yourself correct.

I'm not saying they aren't. I'm asking how you know they are.

[kevin c]

I mentioned that the foils I had melted into known pewter at around tin liquidus temp. I neglected to add that the melt was a large lot of pewter I had analyzed: no aluminum, just tin, a little copper and antimony and a touch of lead that I believe came from an old, non food service pewter item. I’m comfortable saying the foils were mostly if not completely made of tin.

[BNE]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you shared any evidence of what these are made of?

Did you measure the melting point? Get an XRF reading? Check the density?

Because all I see is a post where you say it is tin, then posts questioning how you know that, then another post where you declare yourself correct.

I'm not saying they aren't. I'm asking how you know they are.

If you question Banger, you are probably going to be wrong. BUT, I will make this offer:
Banger- send me a sample and I will XrF it and report the results here. (The foil does not have to still be attached to the bottle-unless you want my opinion of the contents!)

BNE

[Rickf1985]

I sense an ulterior motive here!

[Dusty Bannister]

Not at all, just a more spirited test protocol.

[RogerDat]

I seldom buy high end whiskey for my own consumption. I was blessed to be able to appreciate and enjoy the taste of cheap whiskey. Bottle of Kesslers and a campfire is as good as it gets. Now I don't mind a bottle of the "good stuff" but never "educated" my pallet to care. Have had some 12 year old Canadian stuff that sat on a shelf for another several years and it was I must admit very smooth and drinkable.

Might even buy me a bottle of something good next time I go over to Canada and can get it duty free. Or visit nephew who has PX access in his retirement. Lord knows he gets a good deal on bourbon his pain killer and snake bite medicine of choice.

I have found some of that beverage cooling lines and it was pure tin when tested, has as described the golden hue, hard, easy melting. But having found I'm pretty successful at scoring pewter I have accumulated that as my reserve tin of choice. Lot of other tin has showed up in scrap yards and garage sales over the years and made its way to my supply.

If I was just starting out I might find purchase from supplier like rotometals to be an advantage. Known alloy avoids any guess work. On the other hand over time I find I have learn to tell tin alloys by hitting them with a mapp or propane torch and watching them melt. Heck of a difference in that melt temp and the resulting bead when there is tin present. Do the same for pewter. Stuff almost disappears from under the flame when it is pewter.

I have one or two pounds of pure tin that I might use for binary alloy or to tweak a batch of casting alloy but I generally make 100 pound or larger alloy batches so solder from bulk scores or pewter are my go to for those mixes. I'm using printing lead to get to a higher Sb & Sn place then usually adding to up the tin to match the antimony. I think I recall Banger more often does smaller batches for what alloy he wants to cast at the time.

Speaking of binary alloys. I think the brass cartridge historical shooting requires only lead tin alloy so store bought may be the best option for people casting for those competitions. Other wise us paper punchers and berm killers we take it where we find it.

I need more friends that buy expensive booze. Or to keep finding pewter at Salvation Army or Garage Sales. I'm up 8# over the last two weeks. Would be if I didn't decide I like that one pitcher and put it on the dust collector shelf. Matched a small one I already have for wife to put small flowers in.

[BattleRife]

So my employer's handheld XRF unit made a rare week-long trip into the office for calibration not too long ago. When I found this out this thread came to my mind, and I arranged with the equipment manager to do a little government work.

I went to my scotch shelf and pulled the remnant of foil seals that seemed to have the right kind of soft, greasy feel from a few bottles and took them in.

All samples were prepped by pressing flat and dressing a test spot with 220grit SiC paper immediately before testing. I am happy to report that Bangerjim is correct, at least in part.

The results:
Oban 14-year old: >99% aluminum
Dalwhinnie 15-year old > 99% tin
McClelland's Islay Single Malt >99% aluminum
Talisker 10-year old >99% tin

The McClelland's is the cheapest of these 4, the Oban the most expensive, at least in my part of the world.
The most surprising thing about the results to me is that Oban, Talisker and Dalwhinnie distilleries are all owned by the same parent company, Diageo PLC, and are among their flagship brands. Apparently standardizing the foils on their bottles isn't something they have worried about.

[kevin c]

BattleRife, did the aluminum feel much different from the tin?

[BattleRife]

I wouldn't say much different. The tin foils felt softer, they folded readily, the best comparison I can make is to soft deerskin leather. The aluminum felt stiffer, and like it would crinkle and crease if folded. The tins also had a duller sheen.

The 2 aluminum foils actually felt rather different from each other. The McClelland felt a bit plastic-y. The Oban foil was a bit thinner than any of the others, and brighter.

[GregLaROCHE]

The cost of the tin is part of the price you pay for the spirits.

[Soundguy]

I mentioned that the foils I had melted into known pewter at around tin liquidus temp. I neglected to add that the melt was a large lot of pewter I had analyzed: no aluminum, just tin, a little copper and antimony and a touch of lead that I believe came from an old, non food service pewter item. I’m comfortable saying the foils were mostly if not completely made of tin.

Antimony is as or more toxic than arsenic.. hope there wasn't antimony in it...

[Rickf1985]

Antimony is as or more toxic than arsenic.. hope there wasn't antimony in it...

Confused? Most of the lead we use as reloaders has antimony in it, It is not toxic in it's alloyed form.

[Soundguy]

My point was that finding it in a bottle top foil was surprising... Definitely not cali compliant. ;)

[Rickf1985]

I just bought a book, you know, made out of paper with printing on it? And it was listed under Cali. Prop 65!!!!
ANYTHING is unhealthy for you in California.

[Soundguy]

Probably the ink..

[kevin c]

I wasn’t very clear in my statement.

I melted the foils into a pot of pewter. The fact that the foils melted around tin liquidus temp suggested a high tin alloy, not lead or aluminum. The fact that, on XRF analysis, the whole pot, including the melted in foils only contained metals that I expected in various types of pewter (tin, of course, several percent antimony, a smaller percentage of copper, a very low percentage of lead, and no aluminum at all) made me comfortable saying that the foils were tin, not aluminum.

[john.k]

Another source of pure tin was ointment tubes .........I think even toothpaste was in tin tubes ,but not so sure of that.

[Rickf1985]

Another source of pure tin was ointment tubes .........I think even toothpaste was in tin tubes ,but not so sure of that.

Man! That is going back a few years!! I remember them in the trash burning piles, they would swell up and pop. I never remember them melting though and I think if they were tin my dad would have held them aside for that reason.

[imashooter2]

Another source of pure tin was ointment tubes .........I think even toothpaste was in tin tubes ,but not so sure of that.

Long ago and far away...

[MarkK]

As mentioned earlier, one can also find tin foil on some wines; typically the spendier ones.

See pic: Tin left and aluminum right. Beyond visual differences, tin will have more heft.

[GregLaROCHE]

I wish my wine bottles were sealed with pewter, if so I would never be in need of any. Unfortunately, they are only aluminum.