Wet news paper to test hollow points

[catkiller45]

How thick should the pile of news
papers be to check my hollow point 44 bullets.
What distance should it be away.Most will be 44 special 250 gr. And I also have heard that they do not need to be wet

[Outpost75]

Much easier cleanup and simple to use half gallon paper milk cartons. About 6-8 for a HP.

You will need at least a dozen to stop a solid.

Shoot from 10 yards to ensure well centered shot and wear a raincoat.

[megasupermagnum]

For testing hunting bullets I like to load them to the velocity they are expected to be when hunting. For example your stated bullet assuming a muzzle velocity of 850 fps is going to be about 826 fps at 30 yards. I'd personally shoot those at about 10'-15', and and not worry.

If you were testing something like a 357 magnum 158gr at 1400 fps, at 30 yards it would be down to 1280 fps, and I'd then adjust my load for testing so at 10' it would be going that fast.

[Messy bear]

I like wet but not soaked newspaper. It seems to duplicate flesh in the velocities that you would be using. Bullets recovered from it and flesh look almost identical.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve always heard of telephone books soaked in water being used. Unfortunately, phone books are becoming rare items these days.

[Forrest r]

I take +/- 12" of newspaper for the 44mags and make a bundle out of it by using duct tape to bundle it together. When testing might as well test a couple different hp's or loads so it's easier to make up 3 or 4 bundles. Put the bundles in a 48qt cooler and fill the cooler with water and let it sit overnight. Take the cooler to the range the next day and pull the bundles out as needed stapling a target to them and standing them up so the newspapers are plied not stacked. "wet pack"

Don't know how true it is but they say 2" of 10% gel is the same as 1" of wet pack. It would be simple enough to find out just never cared 1 way or the other.

Last time I did any serous testing with wet pack was when I was testing different alloys in a home swaged jacketed 44cal bullet/this bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/QOZKxm4.jpg?2

I tested that bullet @ 25yds into wet pack using a load that simulated a +/- 100yd velocity hit with the hunting load I developed. Took several tries to come up with a alloy for the core that would stay together. Along with the length of the pleats in the jacketed hp design also made a huge difference in how the hp performed. This is what I ended up with.
https://i.imgur.com/b6YHH71.jpg

Using what limited knowledge, I learned from the alloy and pleats with making those home swaged jacketed hp's. I decided to make a 45cal hp for the 1911/45acp's. Everyone wants the picture perfect hp you see in the gun rags that mushrooms out and keeps 95%+ of it's weight/doesn't break or frag. Myself I wanted a real nasty bullet that imploded. If whatever lived after being hit, good luck trying to dig what's left of the slug out. This is what I ended up with.
https://i.imgur.com/s75osgr.jpg?2

That was all that was left of those bullets recovered from wet pack, the cores vaporized.
https://i.imgur.com/mKBRokh.jpg

I shot 3 bullets slow fire into the wet pack and then did a double tap. The double tap blew out the back of the wet pack & I picked up the jackets off of the table the wet pack was sitting on.
https://i.imgur.com/n5fbg9m.jpg

Testing 357's in wetpack, started with a 12" bundle of wet pack and peeled back layers until found the bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/mEyrLTG.jpg

Milk jugs will work for raw testing but they don't tell the whole story. Testing the "Ness" 30cal hp @ 50yds using a +/- 1600fps load. These are the recovered pieces of that hp bullet. On the right is what I found in the milk jugs & on the left what was in the wet pack. The milk jugs had small holes everywhere in them (mostly sideways) & looked like a shotgun hit them. I only recovered the base of the bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/42ATkg5.jpg

The wet pack had the bullet fragments, the bases and 1 heck of a permanent wound channel that that was +/- 4 1/2" long and this big around.
https://i.imgur.com/7XXQEas.jpg

What most people don't realize is how much the alloy of a hp affects its performance as does the shape/size/depth of the hp. You really want to find out what's going on with a hp, wet pack is a better choice than milk jugs/water. Water will show a mushroomed bullet. Wet pack will not only show the same mushroomed bullet, but it will also show how much penetration that bullet is getting. Along with showing if the hp can hold up to the extreme stresses applied on it.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Forrest r: This is interesting work you are doing w/ the 44 bullets made from 40 short & weak (S&W, :) ). I have considered same.
If there is detail on a different post as how you made these (tools needed, etc.), can you share post or key words for a search?

Catkiller45: best not to use dry paper, it doesn't really act the same, and has a tendency to plug a HP. The water makes the paper act more like muscle tissue.
We have tried side by side.

Another media that works well for the bullet upset is wet clay, but isn't as easy to deal with for cavity inspection.

[dverna]

Good read Forrest r!

To the OP, I commend your attempt to test bullets before using them on game. There is no "easy" method I have ever seen. Every method requires too much effort for me to get excited about.

And then is the question of how good is the method?

With your cartridge I would heed the advice of Mr. Keith as he likely shot quite a few critters to reach his conclusions:

"For most revolver cartridges including all light and normal pressure loads there is no use having the bullets harder than 1 part tin to 20 parts lead. (1/20) Good for velocities up to 1,000 fps and hollow points.
For really heavy loads, over 1,000 fps w/ no HP, a 1 part tin to 15 parts lead is hard enough (1/15)."

IIRC in other "works" he suggested 16:1 as good alloy for pistol use.


As to your specific question, I have only read about using wet newspapers.

[Sasquatch-1]

Forrest r: This is interesting work you are doing w/ the 44 bullets made from 40 short & weak (S&W, :) ). I have considered same.
If there is detail on a different post as how you made these (tools needed, etc.), can you share post or key words for a search?

There used to be a lot of videos on YouTube about swaging 44 and 45 cal bullets using .40 S&W brass. I don't know if they have left them on the site. As for tools, they can get very costly.

[fredj338]

I have tested a lot of bullets in wetpack, still a viable choice today. I use phone books, soaked well. You need want 16-18"" to stop most HP. Heavy larger bores will go deeper than lighter smaller bores. Solids, depending on bullet weight, more than 24". The few bullets I have recovered from game look just like the ones from wetpack. I am sure gel is great but a pita to work with.
FWIW, it isnt just alloy but HP shape that affects performance. Cup points can go with softer alloys & deeper, larger HP want a bit tougher alloy to keep from fragmenting.

[buckwheatpaul]

Much easier cleanup and simple to use half gallon paper milk cartons. About 6-8 for a HP.

You will need at least a dozen to stop a solid.

Shoot from 10 yards to ensure well centered shot and wear a raincoat.

I agree with Outpost.....ask me how I know!

[Forrest r]

Forrest r: This is interesting work you are doing w/ the 44 bullets made from 40 short & weak (S&W, :) ). I have considered same.
If there is detail on a different post as how you made these (tools needed, etc.), can you share post or key words for a search?

Catkiller45: best not to use dry paper, it doesn't really act the same, and has a tendency to plug a HP. The water makes the paper act more like muscle tissue.
We have tried side by side.

Another media that works well for the bullet upset is wet clay, but isn't as easy to deal with for cavity inspection.

Actually those bullets made from 40s&w cases are caveman simple to make.

lee .429" sizing die ($20)
any 224rem fl sizing die ($5 at a gunshow)
shell holder (I used a 38spl/357mag shell holder)
41mag expander (made my own .410")
any cast bullet for a core
A set of hornady blank making dies if you want to put the "xtp" pleats in the nose of the hp's (I bought a set for $50 years ago)

You'll spend more time switching out/adjusting dies then actually making bullets.

I cast the mihec hbwc's (41cal/.413") to make those jacketed 44cal hp's in post #6. The mihec hbwc's have 2 lube grooves in them.
https://i.imgur.com/td95NhG.jpg

Those 2 lube grooves show up in the 40s&w cases as crimp grooves. Top crimp groove for revolvers, bottom crimp groove for the long throated contenders.

[bedbugbilly]

I have no cat in this dog fight - have never tested HPs. But just throwing this out as a question.

If a person uses newspapers or a group of phone books - which are now pretty much a thing of the past . . . what about using books? As an example - my wife and I had a bunch of books to get rid of - had a garage sale and a few sold . . I gave a bunch of them away just so somebody could get some use out of them and donated the rest to a charity store. Used hardcovers don't seem to bring much and often sell for a dime or so at a lot of garage sales. If a person could get some and remove the covers - wet them - would they work just as well?

[fredj338]

I agree with Outpost.....ask me how I know!

The issue with water is it is too liquid. It makes an average HP look spectacular & a good HP is likely to fragment. Yes it is easy but doesnt really tell you what the bullet is capable in flesh. There is also the one shot & done factor. If you want to test just 2 or 3 bullets, that is a lot of water jugs. A stack of wetpack, you can get 3-6 depending on rifle or handgun & the size of the stack.

[fredj338]

I have no cat in this dog fight - have never tested HPs. But just throwing this out as a question.

If a person uses newspapers or a group of phone books - which are now pretty much a thing of the past . . . what about using books? As an example - my wife and I had a bunch of books to get rid of - had a garage sale and a few sold . . I gave a bunch of them away just so somebody could get some use out of them and donated the rest to a charity store. Used hardcovers don't seem to bring much and often sell for a dime or so at a lot of garage sales. If a person could get some and remove the covers - wet them - would they work just as well?

Books would work, lose the hard covers. Magazines or slick paper is harder to get soaked. Newspaper is pretty consistent as are disappearing phone books.

[Sasquatch-1]

A local newspaper here in Martinsburg use to sell the end of the roll of paper from their printing presses. They were a dollar a roll and still had a couple hundred feet on the roll. These would be great for what you want to do, along with many other uses. I use them for covering up shot up target backers, drawing paper for the Grandkids, wrapping fragile things that need to be stored among other things. If you have a small newspaper that print their own publication, check with them and see if you can pick up a couple of rolls.

[Kosh75287]

Since newsprint is going the way of the Dodo, the IBM Selectric, and fully enclosed phone booths, other test media seems in order. I'm hopeful that someone can help me with details on another possibility.
Plastic (HDPE) gallon-size juice/milk jugs filled with water are common, relatively inexpensive (for anyone not buying the contents), uniform, common, and disposable/recyclable. There's an extra step in which cornstarch is mixed with the water. It imparts a gelatinous, "bio-redolent" quality to the penetration medium and (it was said) tends to stop projectiles more rapidly than gallon milk jugs filled with tap water, alone.
If anyone has tried this method for testing penetration and expansion, I'd be interested in hearing about cornstarch : water proportions, and results compared to tap water-filled jugs. It seems to me it was something fairly simple, like a teaspoon or a tablespoon of cornstarch/gallon of water. "The boss" is correct in pointing out to me that this is "an outside" project, and the cold and I do not work and play well together.
I have ZERO illusions that this actually approximates animal tissue, nor even ballistic gel (which also is often a poor substitute) but it's likely a better approximation than tap water-filled plastic jugs, alone. If nothing else, the added cornstarch may cut down on the number of jugs used per shot tested.
Not interested in jacking the thread, just tossing out possibilities.

[Sasquatch-1]

have you considered clay? a 25 lb. block is less then $40.00 on Amazon and is reusable as long as you keep it wet. It shows what the initial wound cavity would be like and would be great for showing bullet expansion.

https://www.amazon.com/Modeling-Clay-Sculpting-Molding-Premium/dp/B01AVEEBLS/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1945AI4JX7UYL&keywords=25+lb+modeling+clay&qid=1643376070&s=arts-crafts&sprefix=25+lb+modeling+clay%2Carts-crafts%2C48&sr=1-4

[GLynn41]

like some of the others I try to match the impact velocity to test in wet magazines as I rarely have paper. When my son was a teen-- I tested his compound bow and arrow combo on a doe's ribs cage. I could match in my eyes it in about 6" of wet paper. so from then on 6" + or - for everything -I just adjust the velocity as I can sometimes by distance or load. My goal is obviously not catch said fired bullet but to see its reaction in test medium.

[Electrod47]

have you considered clay? a 25 lb. block is less then $40.00 on Amazon and is reusable as long as you keep it wet. It shows what the initial wound cavity would be like and would be great for showing bullet expansion.

https://www.amazon.com/Modeling-Clay-Sculpting-Molding-Premium/dp/B01AVEEBLS/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1945AI4JX7UYL&keywords=25+lb+modeling+clay&qid=1643376070&s=arts-crafts&sprefix=25+lb+modeling+clay%2Carts-crafts%2C48&sr=1-4

I have always bundled up my old newspapers and junk mail magazines and catalogs and leave them out in the rain. But, wow thats a good idea and about the same price of another 8" dinger.