DIY Black Powder -- just getting my feet wet

[shaman]

I am picking up a Brown Bess later today. I've been firing smokepoles for nearly 40 years; this is my first flinter.

I have been running through the 240+ page thread on BP. I had some questions:

1) What is the best beginner's method that requires the least initial outlay and gives the best results. Is it the CIA method?
2) If I jump in with both feet, is Fly still making those puck makers?
3) For a Brown Bess, is there any special considerations when making BP. I assume a 2F-3F final product suffices?

[HWooldridge]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder

[shaman]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder

Yes, that's the thread I was meaning.

[LAGS]

Welcome to the world of us Powder Monkeys.
I am sure that lots of members will help you get started

[shaman]

BTW: I nearly got banned from The Muzzleloaders Forum for mentioning that thread in a post. Yikes! This must be really subversive stuff. Should I be wearing my MAGA hat and a yellow vest when I make my own BP?

[mooman76]

They won't ban you right off. They'll give a warning first and then put you in time out for awhile if happens again. I don't know why they get their nickers in a bind over it. It's not like it is illegal and it's becoming more and more a necessity. You can PM someone there about it and not get in trouble.

[Tasbay]

If you are just starting out making your own then yes the CIA method is a good starting point, especially for the main charge. I would recommend you still try to fine a can of commercial BP for the priming pan. I have been making my own for 30 odd years and closely to the CIA method , with flinters I still use commercial in the pan.
If you can introduce a ball mill for milling the charcoal and sulphur before adding to the dissolved Kno3 you will increase the consistency of the shot. I also just use stale urine so ingredients are just Kno3,Charcoal,sulphur, stale urine and nothing else. Charcoal is probably the most important factor, I use Willow.
Enjoy your new hobby.

[mooman76]

If you are just starting out making your own then yes the CIA method is a good starting point, especially for the main charge. I would recommend you still try to fine a can of commercial BP for the priming pan. I have been making my own for 30 odd years and closely to the CIA method , with flinters I still use commercial in the pan.
If you can introduce a ball mill for milling the charcoal and sulphur before adding to the dissolved Kno3 you will increase the consistency of the shot. I also just use stale urine so ingredients are just Kno3,Charcoal,sulphur, stale urine and nothing else. Charcoal is probably the most important factor, I use Willow.
Enjoy your new hobby.

You don't add something as a binder?

[Tasbay]

You don't add something as a binder?

Nope just what I wrote.

[ofitg]

I am picking up a Brown Bess later today. I've been firing smokepoles for nearly 40 years; this is my first flinter.

I have been running through the 240+ page thread on BP. I had some questions:

1) What is the best beginner's method that requires the least initial outlay and gives the best results. Is it the CIA method?
2) If I jump in with both feet, is Fly still making those puck makers?
3) For a Brown Bess, is there any special considerations when making BP. I assume a 2F-3F final product suffices?

One of the most popular (possibly THE most popular) method is so-called "screen powder" - biggest expense would be a ball mill (a $50 rock tumbler from Harbor Freight would work) - I recommend this video from Brushhippie -

https://gunstreamer.com/watch/homemade-black-powder_3kl1VDs7R4gTNkL.html

A significant problem with the "CIA" method is that you inevitably lose some of your potassium nitrate, dissolved into the water/alcohol (which is discarded).

Since you have a Brown Bess, it's worth noting that compressing BP into a puck was not developed until the 1800s.... screen powder might be a touch more authentic.

[Tasbay]

One of the most popular (possibly THE most popular) method is so-called "screen powder" - biggest expense would be a ball mill (a $50 rock tumbler from Harbor Freight would work) - I recommend this video from Brushhippie -

https://gunstreamer.com/watch/homemade-black-powder_3kl1VDs7R4gTNkL.html

A significant problem with the "CIA" method is that you inevitably lose some of your potassium nitrate, dissolved into the water/alcohol (which is discarded).

Since you have a Brown Bess, it's worth noting that compressing BP into a puck was not developed until the 1800s.... screen powder might be a touch more authentic.

Interesting that I have never discarded any liquid from manufacturing powder. I use 450ml of stale urine to 750 grams Kno3 , heat to a simmer and dissolve the Kno3 then add the other 2 ingredients. As it cools it solidifies and no moisture is lost. I do think some add too much moisture.

[shaman]

One of the most popular (possibly THE most popular) method is so-called "screen powder" - biggest expense would be a ball mill (a $50 rock tumbler from Harbor Freight would work) - I recommend this video from Brushhippie -

https://gunstreamer.com/watch/homemade-black-powder_3kl1VDs7R4gTNkL.html

A significant problem with the "CIA" method is that you inevitably lose some of your potassium nitrate, dissolved into the water/alcohol (which is discarded).

Since you have a Brown Bess, it's worth noting that compressing BP into a puck was not developed until the 1800s.... screen powder might be a touch more authentic.

Drat! That was part II, and part I is missing. That looks really interesting.

[ofitg]

Interesting that I have never discarded any liquid from manufacturing powder. I use 450ml of stale urine to 750 grams Kno3 , heat to a simmer and dissolve the Kno3 then add the other 2 ingredients. As it cools it solidifies and no moisture is lost. I do think some add too much moisture.

Apparently we have some confusion over the “CIA” method mentioned by the OP. The CIA method I’m familiar with entails boiling the ingredients in water, then dumping the slurry into ice-cold alcohol, and then separating the solid material from the liquid. It is described in Von Maltitz’s book (see page 97 in the book, page 98 in the PDF file) -

http://pyrotechnic.narod.ru/Black_Powder.pdf

The process you describe sounds more like another type of “precipitation” method, supposedly used by the Chinese over 1000 years ago (Von Maltitz did not specify the type of liquid… Water? Urine?). See page 154 in the book, page 155 in the PDF file).
I agree, this so-called “Cool Marble” method does not result in any loss of potassium nitrate.

[ofitg]

Drat! That was part II, and part I is missing. That looks really interesting.

I think Part I got lost when Brushhippie moved from Youtube to Gunstreamer.

[Tasbay]

Apparently we have some confusion over the “CIA” method mentioned by the OP. The CIA method I’m familiar with entails boiling the ingredients in water, then dumping the slurry into ice-cold alcohol, and then separating the solid material from the liquid. It is described in Von Maltitz’s book (see page 97 in the book, page 98 in the PDF file) -

http://pyrotechnic.narod.ru/Black_Powder.pdf

The process you describe sounds more like another type of “precipitation” method, supposedly used by the Chinese over 1000 years ago (Von Maltitz did not specify the type of liquid… Water? Urine?). See page 154 in the book, page 155 in the PDF file).
I agree, this so-called “Cool Marble” method does not result in any loss of potassium nitrate.

You are probably right. The only reference I had Seen to the CIA method was a video on youtube. If you search black powder the CIA way it should come up. Thanks for adding the PDF, that's going to make some interesting reading.

[shaman]

Bingo! More Brush Hippie

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4keAx4qZJL907szrouTFfA

[Castaway]

ofitg, an interesting fact you mentioned about pucks. Do you know if civil war powder was “pucked”? That would certainly make a big difference in loads then and now

[ofitg]

ofitg, an interesting fact you mentioned about pucks. Do you know if civil war powder was “pucked”? That would certainly make a big difference in loads then and now


What I’ve read indicates that compressing BP into “pucks” or “cakes” as we know them today (density 1.7 gm/cc) was not feasible on a “production scale” until the invention of the hydraulic press, around 1800.

https://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2016/08/black-powder-xi-pressing.html

This U.S. Ordnance Manual of 1850 mentions hydraulic presses (page 215 of the book, page 244 of the PDF file), along with a couple other less effective methods. It sounds like U.S. arsenals may have been upgrading to hydraulic presses at that time -

https://ia902708.us.archive.org/0/items/ordnancemanualf00mordgoog/ordnancemanualf00mordgoog.pdf

I think it’s safe to say that at least some – perhaps most – of the BP used during the 1860s war was the “modern” form that we still buy today.
However, some of the Confederate powder manufacturers took shortcuts, trying to keep up with the demand. One of the “innovations” practiced at the powder house in Augusta, GA, was to bypass the hydraulic presses altogether.

[Castaway]

That brings up the next question. I wonder what the difference in velocity of a given amount of powder, pucked vs. non-pucked would be. Obviously, the amount of available energy is the same, but I suspect the non-pucked would be slower. Are you able to quantify the difference in any particular caliber and load?

[LAGS]

The FPS is faster with the corned powder.
But ,
If you shoot say 50 grains by Weight of both screened and corned powder , the FPS is almost the same.
But if you shoot the two powders by Volume instead.
The corned powder weighs more per the same volume of screened.
So say you shoot 50 grain load of each by volume.
Then the corned will give more FPS because it is actually more weight.
Now this is my opinion from past testing.
But others may see it different.

[Castaway]

TThat’s been the biggest deterrent to making my own. I’ve got one in-line, but most of my shooting is cartridge. Always wondered how the taller powder column would behave. Maybe an option for reduced 45-110 or 120 loads. The density of the pucked powder is roughly 1.7 g/cc. What is the density of the unpucked powder?

[ofitg]

TThat’s been the biggest deterrent to making my own. I’ve got one in-line, but most of my shooting is cartridge. Always wondered how the taller powder column would behave. Maybe an option for reduced 45-110 or 120 loads. The density of the pucked powder is roughly 1.7 g/cc. What is the density of the unpucked powder?

Did some “quickie” measurements – according to my scales, a level 4.3cc LEE powder scoop of Olde Eynsford 3Fg factory powder weighed 60.9 grains.
A level 4.3cc scoop of “screen” powder I had on hand weighed 49.3 grains….. I should note, the only “classification” performed on this powder was to make sure all the granules passed a 20-mesh screen. It contained a lot of particles smaller than 3Fg.
Hopefully this might give you a “ballpark” idea of the difference in densities.

[Castaway]

Exactly what I was asking. Thanks for the patience

[maillemaker]

I recommend just biting the bullet and reading the entire thread cited above.

It's a long read. It starts off with someone describing the Chilled in Alcohol method, then meanders into screened powder, before finally settling in to corned powder.

If you want to make "real" black powder as was commercially and militarily made since the 1800's, that is essentially volumetrically identical to commercial powder, then corned powder is what you want to make. You'll need a hydraulic press to do it. I use a 12-ton Harbor Freight press.

With corned powder, the only 3 ingredients needed are charcoal, potassium nitrate, sulfur, and a tiny amount of distilled water (misted onto the green meal prior to puck pressing).

Steve

[mmb617]

Warning - this project can suck you in. If you are like me before you know it you'll have way more invested in equipment than you ever thought you would, but you'll also be able to make all the high quality powder you'll ever need.

If you shoot a lot of black powder the cost savings per pound will be substantial which helps offset the equipment costs sooner. If you only shoot a pound a year it's not worth it from a financial viewpoint.

[HWooldridge]

I recommend just biting the bullet and reading the entire thread cited above.

It's a long read. It starts off with someone describing the Chilled in Alcohol method, then meanders into screened powder, before finally settling in to corned powder.

If you want to make "real" black powder as was commercially and militarily made since the 1800's, that is essentially volumetrically identical to commercial powder, then corned powder is what you want to make. You'll need a hydraulic press to do it. I use a 12-ton Harbor Freight press.

With corned powder, the only 3 ingredients needed are charcoal, potassium nitrate, sulfur, and a tiny amount of distilled water (misted onto the green meal prior to puck pressing).

Steve

Wonder if anyone has pressed blended green meal into pucks without adding any water? Reason I ask is that plain old Goex compresses into a pretty good pellet inside a brass cartridge case with just a Rockchucker press. I made a mistake last week when compressing a couple of cases and had to use a small pick to remove the charge, which came out in solid lumps - this was Goex FFFg in a 44-40 case, straight out of the can. I'm making a leap here but the greater pressure required to make the sulfur and KNO3 "flow" may be sufficient to puck without any additional water, thereby speeding up the subsequent grinding process. The blended powder has a level of moisture already present, especially if the materials are exposed to atmosphere for a while.

Of course, this will depend on ambient humidity - we typically have 50-80% here over the course of the year with just a few spells under 30% so that would be more conducive to pressing without water than in Arizona.

[Nobade]

You may be able to do that, especially in the summer. It doesn't work here in NM but I have talked to folks in GA that were able to make it work. You're right about the relative humidity.

[almar]

Wonder if anyone has pressed blended green meal into pucks without adding any water? Reason I ask is that plain old Goex compresses into a pretty good pellet inside a brass cartridge case with just a Rockchucker press. I made a mistake last week when compressing a couple of cases and had to use a small pick to remove the charge, which came out in solid lumps - this was Goex FFFg in a 44-40 case, straight out of the can. I'm making a leap here but the greater pressure required to make the sulfur and KNO3 "flow" may be sufficient to puck without any additional water, thereby speeding up the subsequent grinding process. The blended powder has a level of moisture already present, especially if the materials are exposed to atmosphere for a while.

Of course, this will depend on ambient humidity - we typically have 50-80% here over the course of the year with just a few spells under 30% so that would be more conducive to pressing without water than in Arizona.

It depends. I have tried it here and it works some of the time, but sometimes the pucks just crumble to dust. Its very humid here. I sometimes dry out the components before milling though to prevent clumping in the mill. It takes so little added moisture to get the desire result that i just add a few sprays of distilled water every time now. The important thing to note is how are you mitigating the puck density. More moisture will aid in compression.