Federal .30 Super Carry

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I just received an e-newsletter from Firearms News which they send maybe once a week if you're a subscriber. Right up front, let me apologize for not providing a link. I'm a lousy linker--hard to be good at everything--so you might have to do a little work to find the article about the new Federal .30 Super Carry.

It is discussed at length by 3 "noted firearms experts" and they make lots of interesting observations. It seems that the bullet diameter is smaller than a 9mm but designed to expand, whereas they state that most commonly used handgun rounds utilized for defense were originally designed with FMJ projectiles, and that the JHPs were then designed to meet defensive needs. To me this is kind of a six-of-one half-dozen-of-the-other presentation, as it's if they work or not would seem to be what counts.

They all seem to agree that it is far superior to the .32 ACP and .380 ACP, but comes up about even with the 9mm Parabellum (Luger). The smaller diameter bullet is said to be an advantage in that a couple more rounds can be designed into a magazine, but I'm kind of wondering if 17-19 rounds of 9mm isn't already enough?

I thought this especially interesting in view of the recent thread about "What will replace the 9mm?" Perhaps this is it, but I have my doubts. One thing's for sure, it will be all over the gun magazines in the next couple of months, and you can make up your own mind. Both pistols chambered for the new cartridge, and the ammo will be scarce and expensive for awhile.

DG

[megasupermagnum]

Did you miss the 7 page "New .32 Rimless Cartridge" thread?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Guess so. Will look it up!

DG

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Found it and read all 7 pages. It could have been titled better. Guess it's all been said.

DG

[rockrat]

Probably be kind of a "flash in the pan" as were some of the WSSM's. Here for a short time, then fades away.

[Green Frog]

Has anybody seen an actual firearm that will fire this new “Wonder Cartridge”?

[bimus]

It sounds like a shortened 30 carbine I wonder what kind of pressure it makes ?

[Skipper]

Great solution to a nonexistent problem.

[dverna]

It sounds like a shortened 30 carbine I wonder what kind of pressure it makes ?

50k

[Kosh75287]

I have serious problems with the cartridge as a defensive round, especially if meant to be used on single-stack 9x19 pistols, or the 1911.
BUT! With an extra slide, barrel and recoil spring kit, what a nice conversion it would make, to a caliber suited for trail guns!

[dverna]

I have serious problems with the cartridge as a defensive round, especially if meant to be used on single-stack 9x19 pistols, or the 1911.
BUT! With an extra slide, barrel and recoil spring kit, what a nice conversion it would make, to a caliber suited for trail guns!

Just curious....what would it do that a 9mm will not do as a trail gun?

[RJM52]

Has anybody seen an actual firearm that will fire this new “Wonder Cartridge”?

I actually saw a high end Nighthawk 1911 today in a shop in Newport, NH...$4800!!...and no ammo....

[Kosh75287]

Just curious....what would it do that a 9mm will not do as a trail gun?

With the right projectile, destroy less meat.

[Texas by God]

I'll stick with the 105gr Lee swc at 1200 fps from the 9mm - and not freak out when I lose brass in the grass.......

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[dverna]

With the right projectile, destroy less meat.

Why spend money on a new slide, mags, dies etc. Just get a light recoil spring and load a 9mm FMJ at 850-900 fps.

[725]

Brilliant. In a time of short supply, a new brass cartridge is being marketed to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I'll put my fortune teller's turbin on and suggest it'll disappear soon.

[dkf]

The 9x19 does not have a penetration or expansion problem, maybe at one time some bullets did but not anymore. The .380 is on the edge. There are several .380 bullets out there that will even reliably expand in a Ruger LCP sized pistol, but penetration usually lacking. You can get adequate penetration with the .380 with a non HP bullet whether cast, a fmj or even a bullet like the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator but the damage is not as good as HP. For an LCP sized pistol the old school 90 XTP is one of the best choices IMO.

The .30SC looks to me to be better performing than .380 but a good bit but not up to 9x19 levels. With the pressure of the .30sc at 50k psi and the COAL of it, you are not going to use it in LCP sized guns for several reasons. It is going to have to be used in 9x19 sized guns. So basically the only advantage I can see with the .30sc is an extra round or two in the magazine depending on the gun it is used in.

[Kosh75287]

Why spend money on a new slide, mags, dies etc. Just get a light recoil spring and load a 9mm FMJ at 850-900 fps.

Okay, assuming that the first sentence is a question, my answer would be: "NO reason, if the new round doesn't interest you. Please feel free to drive on."
On the second sentence, one reason not to use FMJs at low velocities on small game is that it's a really excellent way to produce wounded, suffering and irretrievable animals, instead of meet for the pot. A 115-125 gr. .312" LSWC at 1000 f/s or above should work quite well. I know from personal experience that a 110 gr. FMJ at almost twice that velocity (.30 Carbine) is NOT reliable.

[sharps4590]

Great solution to a nonexistent problem.

My sentiments exactly, an answer to the question never asked. But, without it, what is there that can be hyped? Certainly not availability of components.

[Hickok]

Like the .45 GAP compared to the .45 ACP........the .30 Super Carry compared to the 9mm Luger.....the old 45 and the old 9mm just keep on truckin'!!!

Hey, I have a great idea...let's make a cartridge to replace the .308 Winchester/7.62x51,...and call it 30 T/C,.......

[1006]

Some of the new shooters will enjoy wasting their money on it, but I would also guess that some Government Agency is the the intended target consumer.

[Bigslug]

.40 Swindle & Whitewash

.45 Gaston's Asinine Project

.30 Shouldn't Consider

While they're plugging this thing's ballistic superiority to the .32 and .380 ACPs, it is VERY unlikely that we'll see a round so hot dropped into something the size of a PPK, so that argument is invalid.

They're saying it's terminally ALMOST as good as the 9mm, and it's coming in the same sized guns.

And it holds a couple more rounds per magazine than the 9mm - which is already popular because it offers high capacity

Best I can factor, it generates a whole pound less recoil than the 9mm - which is already popular because it doesn't kick much.

The world would be a better place if we sent every person in charge of product marketing to explore the wreck of the Titanic, without a submarine.

[Forrest r]

The only thing that I saw/wondered about this new cartridge was:

What kind of performance would I get if I reloaded this cartridge with those 85gr steel cored russian bullets used in the 7.62 tokarev???

[1eyedjack]

Designed for the millennial crowd - its new ! its more! its expensive! its everything you ever wanted! its just like what you have in a new package!! be the first in your self centered little group to have one! it might even do everything the one you have does.....and all the new "gun testers" will test it & regurgitate the manufacturer spec sheets extoling how it will replace every other gun. And the high power & 1911 are how old?? yep another answer looking for a question .

[35 Whelen]

.40 Swindle & Whitewash

.45 Gaston's Asinine Project

.30 Shouldn't Consider

While they're plugging this thing's ballistic superiority to the .32 and .380 ACPs, it is VERY unlikely that we'll see a round so hot dropped into something the size of a PPK, so that argument is invalid.

They're saying it's terminally ALMOST as good as the 9mm, and it's coming in the same sized guns.

And it holds a couple more rounds per magazine than the 9mm - which is already popular because it offers high capacity

Best I can factor, it generates a whole pound less recoil than the 9mm - which is already popular because it doesn't kick much.

The world would be a better place if we sent every person in charge of product marketing to explore the wreck of the Titanic, without a submarine.

These threads on this cartridge crack me up. The very arguments that the 9mm lovers used to contend that their beloved cartridge was better than the 45 ACP (greater mag capacity, lower recoil, excellent terminal performance because of better bullets, et al.) are now being used to argue that the 30 SC is as good as the 9mm. Rich, indeed.

35W

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Most interesting, Gentlemen! Close to 100% negative vibes. As I indicated originally, I don't really see either a necessity for it or a lasting place in the lineup of cartridges. Hope some were able to find and read the article. It seems to be a 9mm Luger all over again with a smaller diameter bullet. And, I keep hearing that small voice in my ear whispering, "Bigger is better!"

DG

[Daekar]

These threads on this cartridge crack me up. The very arguments that the 9mm lovers used to contend that their beloved cartridge was better than the 45 ACP (greater mag capacity, lower recoil, excellent terminal performance because of better bullets, et al.) are now being used to argue that the 30 SC is as good as the 9mm. Rich, indeed.

35W

This. This cracks me up like I can't believe.

I have no intention of buying anything that flings reloadable brass around like it's disposable, but really this is like 9mm all over again.

[Bigslug]

These threads on this cartridge crack me up. The very arguments that the 9mm lovers used to contend that their beloved cartridge was better than the 45 ACP (greater mag capacity, lower recoil, excellent terminal performance because of better bullets, et al.) are now being used to argue that the 30 SC is as good as the 9mm. Rich, indeed.

35W

The history of firearms development is filled with quests to find the answers to questions:

1200 AD: Q: My enemies need more terror in their lives! How do I achieve this? A: CANNONS!

1600: Q: How do I not blow up my powder horn with this smoking slow match? A: Invent the flintlock.

1830: Q: How do I get rid of this annoying whiff!. . .bang! delay? A: Invent percussion caps.

1836: Q: How do I not get myself overwhelmed by superior numbers? A: Invent the revolver.

1850: Q: How do I not get shot while I stand up to load this thing? A: Invent an efficient breechloader.

1860: Q: That 1836 question hasn't been answered all that well. . . A: Invent the repeating rifle.

1860: Q: Ammo wet! Rifle no bang! Soldier not happy! Pencil-necks fix! Ugh! A: BRASS CARTRIDGES!

1882: Q: My lead bullets get cold in the winter! A: Put a jacket on them! ;)

1884: Q: Still really not happy with the choices for dealing with that nagging 1836 problem. . . A: Hiram Maxim, For Those About to Rock, We Salute You!

1886: Q: I'm worried about my bullets getting lung cancer. . . A: SMOKELESS powder! ;-)

1890: Q: Do we have any other problems left? A: Messrs. Mauser and Browning would like a word. . .

2020: Q: All those geniuses didn't leave us any problems to solve! How do we get people to keep giving us money? A: Summon the ghost of P.T. Barnum to convince them that all the questions we spent the last 800 years answering haven't been answered.

[stubshaft]

Perfect for the soyboyz that can't take the recoil of a real handgun. Spray and pray is the new norm and aimed fire is a thing of the past. I carry 8 on my hip and 5 in my pocket.

[Daekar]

Perfect for the soyboyz that can't take the recoil of a real handgun. Spray and pray is the new norm and aimed fire is a thing of the past. I carry 8 on my hip and 5 in my pocket.

This could be a quote from 1985, except for the soy part...

[toallmy]

I love the idea of a 30 caliber handgun , as a critter getter , but I don't think this is it .

[RJM52]

Running a 115 grain bullet at 1200 fps is going to produce the same recoil as a 115 grain 9mm as that is about the average velocity for 9mms in that grain weight... With 50k psi there is going to be a higher frequency muzzle blast...

Would be very interesting to see what they could get for velocity with the Hornady 85 grain XTP or the 85 grain bullet that Federal uses in their HS Low Recoil rounds in the .327 Federal...1400 fps maybe....

Bob

[fastdadio]

Suddenly I'm feeling like I need I to buy a tokarev and a case of Rushki 7.62x25 burp gun ammoes. I always did like that pistol.

[35 Whelen]

I'm not really sure that chamber pressure is an indication of the level of muzzle blast. Two of the more ear-splitting cartridges I've ever fired out of handguns is the .22 WMR and the 32-20, both relatively low pressure cartridges. Elemer Keith, in SIXGUNS specifically mentions the loud report of the 32-20.

35W

[jrayborn]

I like the idea. Not sure if it fills a void or not and I couldn't really care less. If it is a cartridge chambered in a handgun I like the looks of I'll probably try it out. I love playing with different types of cartridges and firearms and to me this is exciting. I have no need to compare it to anything else or to consider it either superior or inferior to anything else.

Remember gentlemen, anything that creates interest in shooting is, at least in my opinion, a good thing. We should be happy that there are manufacturers out there that are willing to try different things. Now, it would be nice if one of them would open up a new primer manufacturing plant as well... :)

[Bigslug]

Running a 115 grain bullet at 1200 fps is going to produce the same recoil as a 115 grain 9mm as that is about the average velocity for 9mms in that grain weight... With 50k psi there is going to be a higher frequency muzzle blast...

Would be very interesting to see what they could get for velocity with the Hornady 85 grain XTP or the 85 grain bullet that Federal uses in their HS Low Recoil rounds in the .327 Federal...1400 fps maybe....

Bob

I've mentioned elsewhere, but I think the right path for this cartridge is the one not being taken - initially, at least.

The 115 grain .30 SC has about the same sectional density as a 147 grain 9mm, but thus far, they are only offering that weight as the FMJ target load. The penetration of the 9mm/147 moving around 1000 fps tends to be a little deeper and more consistent across the various barrier/gel tests than it's 115 and 124 grain counterparts, which is why it's got a pretty solid LE following. That it also happens to be subsonic doesn't hurt either.

A 115-120 grain hollowpoint out of the .30SC at about 1100 fps would probably make the round the 9mm equivalent they are pitching it as, albeit with a expanded diameter of around .45"-.50" instead of about .65"-.70". I suspect such a version of the round would stack up VERY well in the formal gel tests.

It would still have to compete against the 9mm's established logistical juggernaut while offering little more than a few extra rounds in guns that already hold a BLOB (Butt Load Of Bullets), but that would certainly make the argument more intriguing.

The main future I see for it is among the "bottomless magazine" race gun competitors.

[rking22]

No interest on my part, but maybe it will get someone like CZ to bring out a nice pistol in 7.65x21. I like 32s but 50k pressure is going to bark out of the small bore and the brass is odd, just like the 350 L of recent release. Not like reinventing the wheel.
Could have been the marketing people decided they were tired of hearing the 327 revolvers can shoot all the 32 rounds….

[dverna]

I like the idea. Not sure if it fills a void or not and I couldn't really care less. If it is a cartridge chambered in a handgun I like the looks of I'll probably try it out. I love playing with different types of cartridges and firearms and to me this is exciting. I have no need to compare it to anything else or to consider it either superior or inferior to anything else.

Remember gentlemen, anything that creates interest in shooting is, at least in my opinion, a good thing. We should be happy that there are manufacturers out there that are willing to try different things. Now, it would be nice if one of them would open up a new primer manufacturing plant as well... :)

Most people either cannot afford a lot of toys or use more rigorous criteria to make purchase decisions. I think you are in the minority, and that will affect the future of this round. The .243 WSSM is one of many examples of "useless" rounds to push more sales that then died. (BTW I was overjoyed when I found a "sucker" to buy my .243 WSSM).

A few .32 aficionados will be attracted to it because of the caliber and getting 9mm performance is big boost over other semi-autos in that caliber. But if they already have 9mm's, it seems like a poor way to spend money unless someone has money to waste.

I have a small (Kahr) and large (Glock) 9mm I use for self defense. And a couple of 9mm carbines. This cartridge does not offer a significant advantage to warrant adding another caliber to deal with. The vast majority will come to the same conclusion.

Many folks are like me...jaded. We are tired of "new and improved" that is marketing BS.

But the sad part is companies are investing in R&D to sell more guns and ammunition based on BS instead of real improvements. Even good ideas get corrupted...like the .350 Legend that should have been based on .223 brass.

[Daekar]

Even good ideas get corrupted...like the .350 Legend that should have been based on .223 brass.

... and should have used 358 instead of 355 bullets.

[dverna]

... and should have used 358 instead of 355 bullets.

As a caster I agree!!

But I can see using .355 so reloaders would not use .358 bullets meant for more powerful calibers. At least with pistol bullets, there will be expansion. They were likely worried about bullets pencil holing through and people reporting poor performance on game.

For the majority of people that shoot factory ammunition is a non-issue.

[huntinmo]

Interesting discussion! Makes me want to go look for a 32-20 wheelgun! [smilie=s:

[376Steyr]

Guys actually shooting samples at SHOT Show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP_c1Pp2JUI

1. It kicks just like a 9mm
2. It holds 12 instead of 10
3. The smaller diameter case opens up possibilities of using different sized frames/grips than the current 9mm size requires.

My two cents: #3 is the most interesting idea. I could see marketing a new pistol with a grip designed for women, slimmer, but with adequate magazine capacity.

[HumptyDumpty]

It would be easy for me to start loading for it, as I already have a bunch of suitable projectiles and powder. If I ever come across a pistol chambered in this round for a decent price, I may buy it, just because I kind of like to shoot odd-ball guns/cartridges. But there's no way this thing catches on.

[Gray Fox]

What is needed is a small frame revolver with a 3" barrel and adjustable sights that doesn't throw unobtanium brass into the weeds. GF

[dverna]

What is needed is a small frame revolver with a 3" barrel and adjustable sights that doesn't throw unobtanium brass into the weeds. GF

Here you go:

https://ruger.com/products/lcrx/specSheets/5444.html

[megasupermagnum]

What is needed is a small frame revolver with a 3" barrel and adjustable sights that doesn't throw unobtanium brass into the weeds. GF

As dverna posted, the LCRx 3" has been out for I'd guess 8 years by now. The only shame is they failed to ever release it in 327 federal. For that you can get the 3" SP101 which has been around for decades, and was the original 327 federal gun. S&W also released their J frame as a 3" in 327 federal. It sure would be sweet to be able to use these guns to shoot this new 30 super carry, but too late now.

[Thundarstick]

I've got one of those 327FM J frames, and it's a great carry gun!

[dkf]

As dverna posted, the LCRx 3" has been out for I'd guess 8 years by now. The only shame is they failed to ever release it in 327 federal. For that you can get the 3" SP101 which has been around for decades, and was the original 327 federal gun. S&W also released their J frame as a 3" in 327 federal. It sure would be sweet to be able to use these guns to shoot this new 30 super carry, but too late now.

It makes no sense that Ruger didn't come out with the 3" but came out with the snubby .327 LCR. The .327 is going to be better suited for that longer barrel, even if it is only 3".

[55BoysATR]

The history of firearms development is filled with quests to find the answers to questions:

1200 AD: Q: My enemies need more terror in their lives! How do I achieve this? A: CANNONS!

1600: Q: How do I not blow up my powder horn with this smoking slow match? A: Invent the flintlock.

1830: Q: How do I get rid of this annoying whiff!. . .bang! delay? A: Invent percussion caps.

1836: Q: How do I not get myself overwhelmed by superior numbers? A: Invent the revolver.

1850: Q: How do I not get shot while I stand up to load this thing? A: Invent an efficient breechloader.

1860: Q: That 1836 question hasn't been answered all that well. . . A: Invent the repeating rifle.

1860: Q: Ammo wet! Rifle no bang! Soldier not happy! Pencil-necks fix! Ugh! A: BRASS CARTRIDGES!

1882: Q: My lead bullets get cold in the winter! A: Put a jacket on them! ;)

1884: Q: Still really not happy with the choices for dealing with that nagging 1836 problem. . . A: Hiram Maxim, For Those About to Rock, We Salute You!

1886: Q: I'm worried about my bullets getting lung cancer. . . A: SMOKELESS powder! ;-)

1890: Q: Do we have any other problems left? A: Messrs. Mauser and Browning would like a word. . .

2020: Q: All those geniuses didn't leave us any problems to solve! How do we get people to keep giving us money? A: Summon the ghost of P.T. Barnum to convince them that all the questions we spent the last 800 years answering haven't been answered.

Bravo!!!

[rintinglen]

I'm not really sure that chamber pressure is an indication of the level of muzzle blast. Two of the more ear-splitting cartridges I've ever fired out of handguns is the .22 WMR and the 32-20, both relatively low pressure cartridges. Elemer Keith, in SIXGUNS specifically mentions the loud report of the 32-20.

35W

32-20 ain't nothing to 30 Carbine or .327.

[MNruss]

I’m not at all convinced that it won’t chamber in a 32 S&W or 32 S&W Long revolver.
The diameter of this at the base is listed as 0.3425”.
That’s not much larger than some sloppy chambers I’ve seen.
A determined idiot could press-fit one in there, I’m guessing.

[blue32]

I'm not really sure that chamber pressure is an indication of the level of muzzle blast. Two of the more ear-splitting cartridges I've ever fired out of handguns is the .22 WMR and the 32-20, both relatively low pressure cartridges. Elemer Keith, in SIXGUNS specifically mentions the loud report of the 32-20.

35W

I'll go ahead and add that I have lit off RCBS 32-98SWC in 32-20 at 1,195 fps using 10gr 2400 (Over Published Max!) out of my Uberti clone and you definitely would not enjoy that without ear pro.

[Murphy]

Is anyone making an AR platform for this do all, end all new cartridge? Asking for a friend of course.

:coffeecom


Murphy

[Bigslug]

Is anyone making an AR platform for this do all, end all new cartridge? Asking for a friend of course.

:coffeecom


Murphy

What AREN'T they making an AR for? They seem to have forgotten how to make anything else.:roll:

[am44mag]

I'm not really sure that chamber pressure is an indication of the level of muzzle blast. Two of the more ear-splitting cartridges I've ever fired out of handguns is the .22 WMR and the 32-20, both relatively low pressure cartridges. Elemer Keith, in SIXGUNS specifically mentions the loud report of the 32-20.

35W

From what I understand, it's not. The chamber pressure in the 30 SC drops significantly before the bullet leaves the barrel, so muzzle blast isn't an issue. From what I've seen and heard from people who have actually shot the round, its recoil and muzzle blast is pretty much indistinguishable from a 9mm.

[Handloader109]

looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I've a SW 9mm m&p ez. the only thing that I don't like about the gun is that it is a 8 plus 1 capacity. My little Kimber micro 9 has 6, 7 or 8 round mags so I have same 8 plus 1 in a smaller, less controllable gun. this round gives the ez 10plus 1. 20%more rounds. performance slightly less than a 9mm. Good tradeoff if you just really want to go with a new round but that is only gain. and ammo will be 50% more expensive

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[goryshaw]

I will stick with 32 H&R and 327 Mag instead the 327 can reach 9mm or H&R nearly so but not a good mtn revolver caliber.

[rbuck351]

So what does this do that a 7.62x25 won't? A 30 cal 85gr hp at 1500+ should be pretty effective. Sounds like they are going backwards. I personally prefer the 45acp but if you want velocity the Tok round has got it.

[megasupermagnum]

So what does this do that a 7.62x25 won't? A 30 cal 85gr hp at 1500+ should be pretty effective. Sounds like they are going backwards. I personally prefer the 45acp but if you want velocity the Tok round has got it.

It fits in an American handgun for one. A 7.62x25 won't even fit in a 1911. The 30 Super Carry can fit in sub-compacts.

[flint45]

It seems very stupid to me .