Number of shots to down a deer

[dverna]

I have been a member at a hunt club for a few years. Everyone uses commercial ammunition and I use jacketed bullets. Calibers range from .243 to .30/06 and shots are at 50-275 yards. All were shot from a blind except one buck that was gut shot at 80 yards with a .30/06

All have been one shot kills and we have not lost an animal. Nearly lost the gut shot buck.

What has been your experience?

[NSB]

My experience has been that any time the bullet is actually placed on target (meaning right where you were aiming and were supposed to be aiming) the deer dies. I read a comment on here not too long ago where someone said they were tired of chasing and losing deer shot through the heart and lungs because they didn’t have enough gun. Does anyone really believe this person was losing lung/heart shot deer because he wasn’t using enough gun? I’ll call BS on that any day. I spent one forty year stretch of my hunting career (sixty years this last season) hunting all gun season with handguns. As puny as they are, I shot over fifty deer with .357mag revolvers and another twenty or so with .44mag, 30-30, and 7 tcu. The only deer I lost in that forty year stretch was with a 44mag full power load. A bad hit is a bad shot and it can cost you a lost deer. I was walking/stalking with that shot and the deer moved as I was shooting. If you hunt long enough and get enough opportunities, you can and probably will make a bad hit. It’s incumbent on any hunter to make a good shot and if that means using sticks, rests, limiting distance, etc then they should be doing it. It sounds like your hunt club has their act together in that regard. Sometimes you just have to pass on a shot if everything isn’t coming together to insure a good hit.
Note: your post got me thinking about something. I’ve shot over two hundred deer in my life (hunting four states gives you a lot of opportunities and age just adds to it). I’ve only shot three deer that I can remember where I used a bolt action centerfire rifle. All three were back in the 1970’s.

[jonp]

I've never had to shoot a whitetail more than once to put it on the ground. I have had to do a finish shot at close range with a pistol. I, however, am very careful and picky about the shots and have passed up many because they were not right

[quilbilly]

Few have ever gone more than a few yards shot either with my muzzleloaders or modern rifle except one nice buck taken during our rut two years ago with a muzzleloader. He had his harem of six does on the clearcut when I shot from 75 yards. When the smoke cleared, no deer were to be seen so I waited about ten minutes. The does re-emerged with the buck harrying them so I fired again and he went down instantly from a neck shot. When I field dressed him, I found that the first ball went right where it had been aimed and destroyed the heart. He had completely bled out inside the body cavity. He went for ten minutes operating on pure testosterone with no blood left. I would have never found him if those does had not brought him back out from the thick stuff.

[badguybuster]

I dont know anyone who has required mutliple shots but then again, we are all lifelong hunters. Its rare here in WV to get a shot past 100 yards so distance isnt really a factor

[Shawlerbrook]

Back in the days when this area was shotgun only and before rifled barrels and sabots, multiple shot were more common. These days with scoped rifles, most are one shots kills or clean misses.

[sixshot]

NSB, one of the best replies I've read in a very long time!

Dick

[megasupermagnum]

What is a hunt club?

[JWFilips]

I shot a bunch of whitetails in my life using round patched ball and my custom PA flintlock longrifles!
Never lost one or had to chase one. The longest run after hit was 40 yards! 3 were shot between 75 and 100 yards
Never felt I was under gunned for Heart or Lung shot!

[smoked turkey]

I also have deer hunted since probably 1969 and have taken several whitetail doe and buck without an issue. I have "not done my part" in making a good clean shot a couple of times which resulted in a long tracking job. However most have been 1 shot kills with several different calibers and probably half with jacketed and half with cast using .243, 7mm Mauser, 7mag, 307 Winchester, 308, 30/06, 357mag(rifle), 35 Rem, 35 Whelen, 375 H&H, 444Marlin,45/70, and several muzzleloaders thrown in. You get the idea. I have seen big bucks that were shot improperly with big rifles having trouble dying (not a good sight). I believe shot placement is the key and if an improperly placed shot is from any firearm it will probably result in a wounded animal. Possibly a lost animal. I do also believe that proper alloy is important when choosing to hunt with cast. I settled it in my mind long ago that a mix of 50/50 wheel weight/pure lead + 3% tin is a good mix.

[dverna]

NSB nailed the essence of my question. I hear about deer being lost after taking supposedly “good” hits and I do not buy it. None of the guys at deer camp are expert marksmen, but they all get the job done and we have never lost a deer.

I do not have a lot of hunting experience so I started wondering what reality is. I cannot imagine a deer shot in the boiler room running over 100 yards as some have reported. I am a shooter, not a hunter. Every shot is taken only if I am confident it will be a kill shot. And so far I have been “lucky”.

[oldblinddog]

NSB nailed the essence of my question. I hear about deer being lost after taking supposedly “good” hits and I do not buy it. None of the guys at deer camp are expert marksmen, but they all get the job done and we have never lost a deer.

I do not have a lot of hunting experience so I started wondering what reality is. I cannot imagine a deer shot in the boiler room running over 100 yards as some have reported. I am a shooter, not a hunter. Every shot is taken only if I am confident it will be a kill shot. And so far I have been “lucky”.

If shot “through the heart” you will see that bucking bull high kick and the deer will run 100-125 yards (approximately). If a tracker is not very skilled he can walk right by one in the bush. They will go under the worst brush you ever saw. I had one shot at about 75 yards that went away from me but was found under brush that was 35 yards from where I was standing when I fired by another hunter that I had recruited to help search. On the other hand, if you shoot them in the arteries at the top of the heart, they are dead right there. It has worked for me 100% of the time. So, learn to visualize that shot and it will work for you.

[dk17hmr]

I have shot several deer multiple times mostly because they were standing there and not falling down. I shot a very large mule deer at 330 yards 4 times in the chest with a very fast 6mm. He stood there and took it every hit was lethal.

Shot an average mule deer buck with a 25-06AI 3 times in the chest before he fell over lungs were gone part of his heart was missing he wasn't going anywhere but I kept shooting him until he wasn't on his feet.

One and done is nice but I shoot the fight out of them after the first shot.

I also shot an elk this year with a 6.8spc and she fell over before I could get another shot it her. Depends on the animal but I always plan on shooting at least twice.

[Dave W.]

It is all shot placement, that involves knowing your limitations and your guns limitations.

I grew up in Wyoming and Montana, I heard that more deer were poached with a 22 than any other caliber, they were one shot kills. On the other hand it was not uncommon for us to take 300 yard shots, with a lager caliber rife, across canyons or on the flats. It did require a good rest, a stationary animal, and plenty of time. The greatest majority of the time when we did hit the animal, it went down. If it did not, we generally had a good enough field of view to take a second shot. Very few times did we have to trail one.

Once watched a fellow "shoot" an elk by running the bolt and ejecting live rounds, with out pulling the trigger. When done, he walked off amazed that he had hit the critter every time, but it still did not fall down. He went to look for a blood trail. When we tried to tell him what happened, he did not believe us. We had to take him beck to where he shot from and he picked up the loaded ammo off the ground.

[M-Tecs]

I have killed over 225 deer with a firearm. The only time I have every had issues with needing more than one shot is when I used bullets designed for much heavier game. They acted like solids. I failed to recover one deer with the firearm.

[725]

There are so many deer here in Maryland I never feel the need to rush anything. If it's not a standing broadside, I just wait. Won't be long for that "perfect" target to show up. As a consequence, mine are "almost" always one shot drop deals. By far, most of my shots are 25 yards or so. Some closer, some farther.

[35 Rem]

I notice that a lot of and maybe even MOST deer hunters consider it a shameful thing to have to pull the trigger more than once for a deer. I've never been like that myself. No matter how good the deer is hit, I shoot it again and again if it looks like it may get away or even if it looks like it will live more than a few seconds after the 1st hit. I consider putting the animal out of it's suffering to be way more important than my pride.

I have also seen some deer display astounding toughness on a few occasions. One was a doe that took 3 hits from my 460 Weatherby to keep it down. I was shooting the original Barnes 300 grain spitzer bullet with a max load of IMR 4350. I don't recall chronographing the load but it was supposed to be above 2,900 ft/sec. The range was about 125 yards and the doe was trotting. I didn't lead enough and hit it at the rear of the ribs. At bullet impact I saw a doulbe handful of guts drop out of the doe and she spun 180 degrees and headed out across an open field. I shot again with more lead and hit right behind the shoulder in the classic spot. The deer dropped like a wet rag but came back up immediately. I raced the bolt again and whacked her one more time in the same spot. Dropped like a wet rag again but incredibly started struggling to her feet again. I was working furiously to put another cartridge in the chamber and was raising the rifle when she dropped again for the final time. Two of those bullets exited and one stuck right under the for side hide. Expansion was perfect and obviously the energy left nothing to be desired. Of course the problem was adrenaline from the bad first shot. In spite of that it's hard to comprehend a deer absorbing that much and staying on it's feet. The whole thing was probably over in 15 seconds though so they don't have to live long to go a good distance.

I had another instance with a real long shot where I didn't estimate the wind drift properly and hit too far back again. The deer rand about 100 yards and stopped with it's head down. Thankfully it was out in a huge field so I could get another shot. The second shot was right behind the shoulder and it didn't do anything but make the buck run another 100 yards and stop. You could see a wide streak of blood running down his chest from a perfect hit on the 2nd shot. It took another hit to drop him. Again, once they are wounded from a bad hit, it can take a lot to drop them.

Also I've had deer that went down from good hits but still had their heads up and there was a good chance they were going to suffer longer than I was willing to tolerate so I shot again.

I hunted from the mid 1970's to 2019 before I lost a deer though. I lost 2 that year and it sort of shook me up. One of them I still don't understand. It was a nice 8 point using my 50 caliber muzzle loader and two 50 grain 777 pellets with the Lee 310 grain .429 bullet. I cast it from 50/50 CoWW/pure Lead with just a little tin added. Range was 90 to 100 yards and the buck was quartering towards me with it's head down. At the shot it dropped straight down. When the little puff of smoke cleared the buck was on it's belly still very much alive with it's neck stretched straight out in front with head wobbling side to side. If I'd had a cartridge gun I could have easily shot it again. All I could do with the muzzle loader was work as fast as I could to reload but I wasn't even close to being ready when I looked up and the buck was gone. No blood trail no nothing.

[35 Rem]

Remembered another doe taken with the 460 Weatherby. This time I was using the Hornady 350 grain round nose bullet which is a tougher bullet intended more for game larger than deer in a 458 Winchester. I had loaded it around 2,900 ft/sec also. I was slow walking a dirt road in the woods when I saw a doe looking at me from under some low hanging brush about 115 yards away. I took my time and did an off hand shot and the deer flipped and landed on it's back with feet straight up in the air. Since it's head was down with the neck in line with the spine when I shot I hit it in the throat right behind the jaw. The bullet traveled all the way down the neck through the entire body and exited right beside the tail. When I got to it, it was laying there very much alive but unable to move. I shot it again. Ammo is cheap.

[NSB]

Very few people “do the math” on taking a shot at a deer moving at any speed. Fact is, most people don’t really “lead” on a shot. They get in front to some extent and just like a lot of skeet and sporting clays shooters they stop the gun while they pull the trigger. This happens very quickly and they don’t realize what they’re actually doing. Also, the micro-second in time is enough for a deer to move a foot or even feet before the bullet actually gets there. I’m not telling anyone not to shoot, that’s their business. I’m simply saying that a moving deer and lead usually don’t add up very well. The further away they are the worse it is. The shooter leads, stops the gun, and pulls the trigger….add the trigger pull and lock time into the equation. If you want to see how this works here’s a fun thing to do: Get some sporting clays rabbit targets and just roll them down a chute and have the shooter with a rifle (I’d suggest a .22lr for safety) call for the rabbit. That should help, right? Try it at just 20 or 25 yards and see what your hit percentage is and watch how far behind the target you hit. My advice is to consider all of this when shooting at moving deer and not having a rest of some sort.
Note: I went to a shoot one time where they shot a full sized steel deer target hanging on a cable with a motor pulling it at 75 yards. It wasn’t going that fast, but only the experienced guys at the club were getting any hits at all and most of their shots were misses. Everyone else just missed. They also shot the rolling rabbit targets. It was fun and eye opening.

[35 Rem]

Yeah most rifle shooters are too concerned with precision and won't pull the trigger because they are waiting for a perfect shot or like you said they stop just as they fire. Truth is that there isn't one precise spot on a deer that is lethal but rather an area and you have to learn to pull the trigger when you are on that area or you won't ever shoot. I've killed a good number of running deer and coyotes but then I've spent a lot of time with shotguns over the years so moving targets are not such a strange thing.

[megasupermagnum]

NSB nailed the essence of my question. I hear about deer being lost after taking supposedly “good” hits and I do not buy it. None of the guys at deer camp are expert marksmen, but they all get the job done and we have never lost a deer.

I do not have a lot of hunting experience so I started wondering what reality is. I cannot imagine a deer shot in the boiler room running over 100 yards as some have reported. I am a shooter, not a hunter. Every shot is taken only if I am confident it will be a kill shot. And so far I have been “lucky”.

Such a topic always goes out of control faster than a "hard hit" deer. If you put a bullet through both lungs and/or heart, it's hard for them to make it 100 yards. It's more a factor of time than distance. A buck with a running start and nothing but open field made it about 125 yards before falling over. That's the farthest I've witnessed with a gun that didn't have other factors. Most of the time the problem is the hunter bumping those deer. If you immediately after a shot go out to look at the spot of the shot, you will bump that deer, and they will keep running instead of stopping or slowing to catch their breath. It's not as big a deal with strong firearms, but especially bow hunting, a deer often goes a little while after a knife blows through their lungs. That's often where you hear of 200-300 yard tracking jobs of well hit deer is bow hunters who bump deer.

Just wait though, someone will come by with some extraordinary story yet. There's even a guy on this forum who swears up and down he shot a doe and "blew a baseball size chunk of the heart out", and found that deer a mile away. Of course in reality he made a bad shot, and some poor hunter who did make a good shot is forever wondering where his went.

[Shawlerbrook]

Anyone who has bowhunted and shot deer through the chest is familiar with the death run . Both lungs and/ or heart and they do the death run. Run full speed until they drop, usually less than 75 yards. Death with an arrow is caused strictly by blood loss, where a firearm will stop a deer by blood loss, organ, Central nervous system or severe skeletal damage( usually stops them, but my need to finish the job). I find it hard to believe that a deer shot through both lungs and/or heart will go past 100 yards no matter what gun is used.
I do believe that the situation the deer is in contributes to the reaction and distance it will go. I shot a few bucks that were actively grunting and chasing a hot doe and they didn’t even flinch on a chest shot. Continued chasing until they just dropped dead. Adrenaline !!

[gumbo333]

Geez, I hate to even speak up. I've shot quite a few deer in my lifetime with everything from 243 to 300 mag. The two that were hit the hardest with the two largest calipers ran the farthest. 100+ yards and they were using only 3 legs and bleeding profusely. Many went less than 20 but we're not dead so I shot a second shot to finish them. Seems like I've had more bang flop kills with the good ole 30/30 and low power 45/70 than anything. 170 gr and 405 gr. I think there are more two shot kills but maybe I'm just not not that great a shot. Mid January already.

[Plate plinker]

My experience is they don't go very far when hit with a Dodge! You guys and your silly firearms.

[kbstenberg]

I hunt only with my daughter and grandson. I give them 3 shells opening morning. They know that if it takes them all 3 shells to kill a deer. Next year they only get 2 shells. And they better not ask me to finish off their cripple. This year it took 2 shells because the GS spined his and had to finish it off at a distance.

[19112TAP]

My wife was a taxidermist years ago and we had a gentlemen bring us a deer he had just got and didn't know how to skin it for mounting so he asked us to do the skinning. He said that if we wanted the meat we could have it so once we got it hung up and started skinning it out I noticed what must have been 20 some holes in it and the whole carcass was destroyed upon asking him how many times he shot the deer his comment was 17 times I think, being curios I had to ask why and he said well he dropped at the first shot and was moving still and he's the biggest deer I have ever shot at well I guess I got carried away. I asked what gun he was using and he was using a 7mm mag his story was that he had checked his gun before the hunt and fired 3 shots out of a new box of ammo and when he got ready to load the deer up he was checking how many rounds he had left and that is when he notice he was out so he figured he shot 17 times, I figured he might have missed and or drop some reloading the gun but still the deer was a mess and the first round probably did him in. Still a funny story.

[toallmy]

A small hole in and out through the lungs don’t put them down for me , so I make a bigger hole now.

[dverna]

.35 Rem,
Did you use enough gun...or maybe too much gun? LOL

MSM,
You made a good point. We never go after deer immediately unless it is DRT. We wait 30-45 minutes. I suspect on public land there is a tendency to find the deer before another person tags it. We hunt private land so there is no rush.

NSB,
I am not too shabby with a rifle and shot trap competively, but I will not shoot at moving deer. I know what I do not know. I have no confidence taking a shot at a deer trotting at 100+ yards. If I cannot make the shot in practice, how the heck can I ethically do it on a hunt? I know guys who think differently, and most are not very good at stationary targets!! It figures a lot of deer get wounded that way.

[Beagle333]

While I like to shoot at targets that are far away, I never do that with deer. I'm not judging anybody's technique, I'm just fortunate enough that there are plenty of deer around here and it isn't difficult at all to wait for a close shot. I like a shot that is 40-45 yards and then I can almost pick the hair that I want to hit. (and I use a .270)
I know the gun will take one much farther, but I had rather wait for the perfect shot than to track it very far. The farthest I've had one run (actually bound), was 12 yards. The rest of them either collapsed or took one good bounce and fell. You can hunt however you like, that's just the way I do it. 8-)
We have a very long and generous season here and I only need about 4-5 deer to hold the two of us for a year.

[T-Bird]

Plate plinker that's hysterical!

[todd9.3x57]

mostly, i am a one shot guy. i have used the coup de' grace several times. back in the late '80s i shot a 4 pt five times with the '06 and 180gr remington psp at about 25 yards. 4 or 5 were lung shots and one split a sapling and went on to the deer's liver. i didn't know it at time (16 or 17yo), but the 180gr psp was not the 180gr rem rn(that i shot, but couldn't find). the buck's (lungs) wound channel looked like a pencil ran thru it. it was also the point that i hated factory loads and i got into handloading.

a couple of years later, i had a rem m7 in 243 win. it didn't matter what load i used, the deer ran (shoulder/behind the shoulder) about 100-125 yards. then the barnes x bullet came out and i "gotta" get one of those. well, after a lot of shooting, i finally found my load. it was a 85gr x bullet with imr4831 that goes about 1 1/2 -2" at 100 yards(5 shots). the second best group was around 3" at 100 yards and it goes from there. i took it out deer hunting and i got a doe that was about 40 yards away. she ran and boy did she!!! i shot her behind the shoulder about 1/3 of the way up. there was no blood, but there was snow. i tracked her about 50 yards when i first seen a drop of bright red blood. after 200-225 yards (or was it 300?) and 2ish hours later, i found her, dead. my "autopsy" found that the 85gr x bullet did not open up, instead a smaller than pencil wound channel (lungs) that did her in. to make myself happy, i sold the 243 and got a rem m7 in 7-08. in my mind, the 243 is a piece of s@#$... er, junk and it deserves to hunt groundhogs. BUT my friend has a rem m788 in 243(100gr rem-win-fed factory loads) that kills deer with a lightning bolt from above. he loves it.

nowadays, i use cast in hunting. from the 30-40 krag to the 45-70 and in between, it is a one shot kill. i haven't had to coup de 'grace anything yet. its either a DRT or runs about 10-40 yards.

[Smoke4320]

My experience is they don't go very far when hit with a Dodge! You guys and your silly firearms.
Ram 'em good .. :)

[Texas by God]

My experience is they don't go very far when hit with a Dodge! You guys and your silly firearms.The last one I hit at 70mph went 20 yards through the air. All I remember is what it looked like before everything tasted like airbag......[emoji16]

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[gumbo333]

I thought we were talking about firearms. Unfortunately I've gotten about half as many with vehicles and a fawn with a combine. But not this year, we lost a bunch of deer this summer.

[Plate plinker]

Plate plinker that's hysterical!

I seldom hunt deer, but when I do the powerfactor is off the charts.

Gumbo did your area herd get the black tongue disease? Takes 2 or three years to bounce back.

[MT Gianni]

2021 had three downed whitetail. All shot with 308, 150 gr Hornaday. Ranges from 320 yards to 80 yards. Two were double lung hits, one took out the liver. One shot each.
My worst experience was with 165 gr Remington Corelocks in 1987. I shot a 4 x 4 Mule Deer 7 times through the lung, liver area and watched him slowly amble off. He went around the hill and laid down. He was dead when I got there but showed no signs of being hit. That made me take up reloading.
Second was an antelope with 100 gr Hornaday BTSp in 243. He was quartering towards me. 1st shot hit him behind the left shoulder and exited in front of the left flank. I was then shooting at a running antelope with guts hanging out. # 2 was too far back, a solid gut shot, #3 took off his nose and #4 broke his shoulder. I still have no idea what caused the first bullet to turn. I probably killed 30 other head of game with that combo.

2 Whitetail and 1 antelope killed with the 311440 all one shot kills. The last deer I shot that took two, was with the 311165 Ranch Dog. I hit him and he didn't lay down so I shot him again. It wasn't necessary but he was still up. Elk I shoot as long as they are standing. Moose can be fatally hit and it takes their nervous systems a while to realize it.

[Mk42gunner]

My experience is they don't go very far when hit with a Dodge! You guys and your silly firearms.
A Chevy Impala does quite well also. I was almost stopped, the airbag didn't even go off.

Robert

[gunseller]

I have been shooting deer sense sometime in the 60s. I have no idea how many I have killed as I don't notch my weapons. I have used bows, handguns, shotguns, muzzle loaders and rifles. Ranges have been from 600 down to leaving powder burns. Where you hit a deer matters, what the deer was doing just before the shot, the bullet used and sometimes it is just if the deer feels like dieing right there or not. I have seen bucks hit in antlers knocked out come to partway through field dressing get up and run. Never make it far but there is a big space where intestines were. The only way to put deer down is like putting people down. Brake bones or disrupt the central nervous system.
Steve

[white eagle]

My experience is they don't go very far when hit with a Dodge! You guys and your silly firearms.

mine is a Peterbuilt you guys and your silly Dodge's
seriously though as many a it takes
most of the time 1 shot is all that is needed, however there are times when that one shot goes somewhere other than where it is intended and a follow up shot is needed
I once shot a buck, (the only time I used this shot) in the shoulder and it went 50 yards but was not dead and I needed a follow up shot
the buck was standing broadside at 45 yards and was shot with a 25-06
it happens so there is no pat answer

[Plate plinker]

mine is a Peterbuilt you guys and your silly Dodge's


HA HA I bow to your superior machine!

[TurnipEaterDown]

In a discussion of Non Spinal Column bullet wounds, I do think it matters a Lot what physiological state the animal is in (adrenalin, oxygen level, heart rate, blood pressure, etc.), as to how far it may travel after receiving a particular fatal hit that created a certain measurable degree of damage. An animal with a wound that does not immediately drop blood pressure to zero does retain willful action for a lesser period of time if it is calm when shot, as compared to an animal that is pumped full of adrenalin & oxygen, as long as there is not sufficient time to for the blood to carry a sudden release of adrenalin throughout the body from the effect of the bullet impact.
Adrenalin raises heart rate and oxygenation, and limits blood supply to extremities driving the available oxygenated blood to the central nervous system and organs. It is how it works.
It also matters how much damage is created in the organs in question by the bullet impact. Some wounds will close, and may eventually heal. Others incur damage to an extent that the body cannot stop blood loss sufficiently through clotting mechanisms to prevent a rapid loss of volume and drop in blood pressure, thus quickly starving the brain of oxygen.

Don't think that clotting is a scab. Clotting is a function of platelets in the blood, in response to some types of trauma, and can even occur inside of animal that does not have open bleeding and blood loss. Think of a clot as creation of a plug, and it’s a reasonable analogy. Those great big slippery brownish red blobs in a deer’s chest cavity when you gut it after a heart shot are clots. They are not busted up organs as some think. Organs have definitive structure, clots do not.
When the brain stops getting oxygenated, death occurs. If the brain keeps getting oxygen, the animal will stay alive. Perhaps "alive" is not pretty, and a wounded animal will develop infection or become immobilized, but if blood is pumping and oxygen is getting to the brain, the animal will be alive. This is setting aside discussion on starvation.

I started this off w/ "non spinal column". I don't think much of shooting game animals on the spine, generally. I have shot game this way, and the common proponent refrain is true: immediate cessation of motor control is achieved. The result is the '...rug was jerked out under him...' response.
However, the target area is small in relation to thoracic cavity shots on heart/lung, and the proper aiming point for spinal shots can be misleading. The proper aiming point on the neck, in relation to vertical span, is different at the chest cavity end than at the head, it is also at a different point on the span of the neck for a heavily muscled buck, or one in the rut, than a doe. I have also seen misplaced shots let deer survive with what amounted to a tracheotomy. I remember a buck shot this way by a relative return to the bait pile the next year and it blew steam out of a hole in its neck.
A non fatal shot here is not necessarily a 'clean miss' like so many would believe. These non misses can easily become infected and lead to a lingering death.

Most sporting cartridges, sold for a given purpose such as deer hunting, while employing a properly designed bullet for the purpose, will create sufficient damage to rupture a heart, or create a wound through the thoracic cavity sufficient to cause collapsing of the lungs, resulting in reasonably quick death for the animal.
Note "sold for a given purpose, while employing a properly designed bullet".
To the people who want easy energy number comparisons to defend why one cartridge is OK for use on a game animal because something of similar energy worked, keep in mind that a 25 gr 17 caliber frangible bullet has Exactly the same kinetic energy at 4000 fps (realm of 17 Remington) as a 400 gr 475 cal hard cast homogenous lead bullet traveling at 1000 fps (480 Ruger realm of operation).
Kinetic energy = 1/2MV^2. 16 times the Mass, at 1/4 the speed = same energy.
No one should think for one second that this type of 17 caliber bullet will penetrate as well, or cause the same type of wound cavity as the 475. If you disagree, you have never looked at ballistic media tests, nor done thorough post-mortem examinations of game animals.

Fatal is fatal however, and if a shot sufficiently disrupts the organs that infuse blood with oxygen, or pump the oxygenated blood to the brain, then the animal so shot will die relatively quickly and it won’t matter the brand of rifle that fired the cartridge or caliber bullet that struck it.
I have shot a good number deer using pistols (44 Rem Mag, 475s, 30-06, 35 Remington) and rifles (7x57, 30-06, 8x57, 35 Whelen Imp, 416 Wildcat off 30-40 Krag, 44 Rem Mag), as well as a good number of antelope (using 6x250 Imp, 6-280 Imp, 7mm RUM, 30-06), boar (35 Whelen Imp), bison (35 Whelen Imp & 500 Linebaugh Long), under varying conditions regarding impact point, yardage to target, bullet construction, etc.
I can tell you from experience and an understanding of anatomical function that if the heart is ruptured, i.e. cardiac muscle tissue is torn to significant extent by hydraulic action of bullet impact acting on the blood volume inside the heart, or the thoracic cavity is penetrated and a hole through both sides is created large enough so that it cannot seal, thus causing rapid collapsing of both lungs, there will be no noticeable difference what firearm you used given that the animal is in a similar state as another of its species before being so shot.

Here is where the rub comes in: most people want to debate '...what works best...' over a range of cartridge/bullet availability that were all designed to do basically the same thing. Most medium game shot in the US are whitetail deer. Most hunting centerfire medium game rifles and cartridges sold in the US commercially are designed to kill whitetail deer.
All the cartridge/bullet combinations designed to reliably kill whitetail deer will kill whitetail deer if employed correctly. So, if you look at "dead deer" as the criteria, then this very gross metric makes a lot of things equal. If I have rained on your '...mine is better...' parade, then sorry, but facts are facts.
The deer / antelope / boar I have shot with different cartridges and bullets all acted the same if the internal damage was the same. Ruptured heart, deer go flop, if calm. Immediate collapse of both lungs, deer run 40-60 yards if calm. How far they move after the shot is extended if they are ‘jacked up’.

If you look into the detail of How the cartridge/bullet killed the animal, and how forgiving the cartridge/bullet combination is for shot placement (can it handle impact of leg bone during entry into the chest cavity, can it penetrate far enough to make it through rear haunches on a facing away presentation, etc.), then you must make a different evaluation and "Does it work" becomes more refined.

In field hunting conditions things happen: some intervening object deflects the bullet in path, a hunter chose a bullet fine for 300 yd impact because they hunted crop fields and then actually shot the game out of a hedgerow at 50 ft causing over expansion & shallow wounding, buttstock slipped on a shoulder in an awkward shooting position, etc.
Sooner or later, if a person hunts enough, a shot will be taken that results in poor bullet placement on the animal. We don’t hunt with benchrest unlimited guns for animals with kill zones painted on their sides, presented perfectly aligned to the hunter and bullet path. For this reason I prefer to use a cartridge & bullet that are as forgiving as reasonably possible for the game being hunted, no matter how it presents, and this does not have to be a belted magnum nor a 40+ caliber cartridge for deer. Bullet selection, given sufficient cartridge choice is a key component.

For these same reasons, eventually a hunter will need to take more than one shot on a game animal to kill it. No shame in that, at least as long as it is an occasional occurrence due to uncontrollable factors.

Though outside of this thread, but seemingly repeated often in this type of discussion, extrapolating what works for controlled conditions of killing domestic hogs or beef cattle for slaughter, what works for a poacher who is primarily concerned w/ detection of an illegal act rather than wounding game, or some anecdotal success in an emergency situation with a 22 RF and a grizzly bear, is not really relevant to a discussion on ethical hunting practices.

[gumbo333]

Plate P , no it was the disease they get from the midge fly. We lost maybe 70% of our deer 8 - 10 years ago. We were on the rebound. Only saw 1 deer this fall in the several seasons I can hunt. A nice buck but he only came within a out 400 yards. I wasn't hunting then but did have some binocs. That's how this year ended.

[MT Gianni]

Don, i took the heart out of a 2 point whitetail at 125 yards. He went off on a dead run, consider the source of that term, and over the hill. I found no blood for 25 yards working in a circle. Found what might have been 2 or three drops 40 yards away then it went dry. I assumed I had missed or grazed him and went around the hill on a trail and found a blood trail out both sides that was 12 " wide. The deer was within 10 yards of it. He was fat which might have sealed it but the heart was loose in the chest and the cavity was full of blood.

[1hole]

Anyone who has bowhunted and shot deer through the chest is familiar with the death run . Both lungs and/ or heart and they do the death run. Run full speed until they drop, usually less than 75 yards.

I've not killed hundreds of southeastern deer but I have killed a few dozen, all with heart/lung hits from a variety of weapons. Only a few dropped right there and only one traveled as far as 75 yards. Most go unconscious within 50 yards and, head over a shoulder, slide to a stop while running as hard as they can go.

I've killed deer with a bow, a .243, 7x57, 7 Rem Mag, .30-30, .35 Rem, .308, .30-06 and a .54 cal smoke pole and I've seen no real difference in how the lung holes get punched. If the hit is high and through both lungs a dead deer will be within 75 yards or half that ... everytime.

The only deer I've had to shoot twice was with the .243. Actually, one round was plenty but he kept standing perfectly still so I assumed I'd missed and popped him again; then he dropped. Both entrance holes were only about 1.5" apart so the second bullet wasn't needed. (IMHO, the .243/100 gr. is plenty for whitetail.)

Of course there's one guy who hunts near me and claims he once "blew the heart of a deer with a .30-30 and then had to track it "about a mile." So, he says he then bought a .338 Win Mag to be sure he has enough "power" to reliably kill 150# Georgia deer! (I've seen how he shoots and think what he really needs is a WW2 bazooka loaded with some new self-guided heatseeker ammo.)



Death with an arrow is caused strictly by blood loss, where a firearm will stop a deer by blood loss, organ, Central nervous system or severe skeletal damage (usually stops them, but my need to finish the job).

Exactly so. Any high lung hit will immediately flood the lung surfaces, top to bottom, with blood and that totally stops any oxygen exchange. No animal with badly leaking lungs is going to run far. Fifty yards is a long way for any deer to run flat out through the woods while (effectively) holding its breath.


I find it difficult to believe ....

Ditto. In fact, I find it so difficult to believe that I don't believe it.

We like to eat venison but we can't eat meat that's been exploded into a bloody paste by a high velocity bullet. Of course I like all of my deer killers but I've come to dearly love my 336/.35 Rem. (and bow) best of all. The old .35 is plenty accurate, it shoots plenty flat out to about 150 yards and I can eat the bullet hole.

[Buck Shot]

I've probably killed 30-40 deer in PA and VA using 270 Win and 30-06 and one or two with 6.5/284. Shots from 50 to 288 yds. Most were shot with 270 Win 130gr j-words and dropped where they stood. Bullets stopped inside the animals, generally under the skin on the far side. The only ones that ever ran (less than 50 yds generally) were shot with 30-06 Power Point 150gr j-words that passed right through. Only once had to shoot one twice -- a big doe shot w/ 30-06 at point-blank range. Both bullets went right through, but the 2nd one was in the neck.

[Thin Man]

My father had a placard hanging on the wall of our cabin that read: "Dear Lord, let me shoot clean, kill clean. And if I can't kill clean, please Lord, let me miss clean." I have chuckled over that message many times but have followed it every hunting day in the deer woods. If the target isn't right (for any of the usual reasons) it isn't fired. If it is right, there will be meat on the ground. Works every time.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive killed ALOT of deer as anyone on here that knows me knows is fact. Ill say this. Ive never shot a deer hit it and shot again. Either they go down or dont and run off. Ive missed deer at LONG range and had them take a few leaps and stop and then shot and hit them. Ive walked up on deer ive tracked that were still alive and put them down with a pistol or rifle. But if you claim every deer youve shot died instantly or within visual distance of you. Then your either hunting where you can see for miles or you just havent shot many deer. Ive seen deer hit perfectly make 200 yards and that can be major tracking issues in some places we shoot deer. Deer are hard to predict. You can shoot 10 in the vitals and they drop right on the spot. You can hit #11 in the same spot and have it run 200 yards or more. Heck i can honestly say ive seen gut shot deer drop on the spot and in the same day had one hit in the vitals that ran off. This is why im a propent of not just using the smallest gun i can get away with but if anything using one on the powerful side for the game im shooting. Hit deer in the meat with any caliber and your going to loose that meat. Hit one in the ribs (lungs) with a 300 mag and it 9 times out of 10 is going down faster then if you hit it with a 308. Hit it there with either and all your loosing is ribs and that doesnt bother me. Have the deer of a lifetime step out at 400 yards instead of a 100 and youll thank God you took out that 300mag that day. You cant kill a deer to dead. Thin man hit on something very important too. If your not absolutely sure of your shot and that its within your skill range of the ethical range of the gun your using DONT SHOOT. Even following this rule if you shoot enough deer your going to mess up. Weve had a few guys that wanted to do crop damage shooting with us and we took them along and after the first day they were never asked again. Why. Because they sounded like a war zone where they were shooting. One guy shot 9 times one evening and had one dead deer. He claimed he missed all the others so it wasnt worth going over and checking for blood!!!!! Sad thing was he was proud of that deer he shot!!

[toallmy]

ive killed ALOT of deer as anyone on here that knows me knows is fact. Ill say this. Ive never shot a deer hit it and shot again. Either they go down or dont and run off. Ive missed deer at LONG range and had them take a few leaps and stop and then shot and hit them. Ive walked up on deer ive tracked that were still alive and put them down with a pistol or rifle. But if you claim every deer youve shot died instantly or within visual distance of you. Then your either hunting where you can see for miles or you just havent shot many deer. Ive seen deer hit perfectly make 200 yards and that can be major tracking issues in some places we shoot deer. Deer are hard to predict. You can shoot 10 in the vitals and they drop right on the spot. You can hit #11 in the same spot and have it run 200 yards or more. Heck i can honestly say ive seen gut shot deer drop on the spot and in the same day had one hit in the vitals that ran off. This is why im a propent of not just using the smallest gun i can get away with but if anything using one on the powerful side for the game im shooting. Hit deer in the meat with any caliber and your going to loose that meat. Hit one in the ribs (lungs) with a 300 mag and it 9 times out of 10 is going down faster then if you hit it with a 308. Hit it there with either and all your loosing is ribs and that doesnt bother me. Have the deer of a lifetime step out at 400 yards instead of a 100 and youll thank God you took out that 300mag that day. You cant kill a deer to dead. Thin man hit on something very important too. If your not absolutely sure of your shot and that its within your skill range of the ethical range of the gun your using DONT SHOOT. Even following this rule if you shoot enough deer your going to mess up. Weve had a few guys that wanted to do crop damage shooting with us and we took them along and after the first day they were never asked again. Why. Because they sounded like a war zone where they were shooting. One guy shot 9 times one evening and had one dead deer. He claimed he missed all the others so it wasnt worth going over and checking for blood!!!!! Sad thing was he was proud of that deer he shot!!

Well said

[Good Cheer]

My experience is they don't go very far when hit with a Dodge! You guys and your silly firearms.

One year my Dad and brother were sitting around the table and I regaled them with the tale of the doe that crossed a dirt road and I dropped her with my Model '83.
My brother asked "83 what?"
And I replied "Toyota."
:rolleyes:

[Jedman]

All I have to add is how many of you know guys that have been hunting for years and don’t know the first thing about ballistics or have guns or bows that have never been set up properly or scopes that have not been mounted correctly or sighted in ?
I could tell you dozens of true stories that I have experienced with guys who hunt but don’t know - - - - about how a gun works.
These are the guys that buy a gun that comes with a scope mounted and thinks they come pre sighted and work with any ammo they have, especially the ammo someone gave them 20 years ago without ever shooting them first before going deer hunting with them.
Or the guy who will never shoot a target when anyone is present and claims he has the rifle sighted perfectly but if and when he does hit a deer it’s always gut shot or hit somewhere that the deer is never recovered.

I could give too many examples of intelligent people that act so stupidly with a gun when hunting deer that you would think I made it up and I am sure I ain’t seen it all but got to shake my head remembering some of the things I have seen and heard. I’m sure most of you know people like this but no longer will hunt with them.

Jedman

[1hole]

All I have to add is how many of you know guys that have been hunting for years and don’t know the first thing about ballistics or have guns or bows that have never been set up properly or scopes that have not been mounted correctly or sighted in ?

You're right. And you prompt a couple of laughable memories of some well meaning real life hunter dummies:

1. Hey Jim, you shoot a lot, tell us how far a rifle bullet will travel before it starts to drop. Jim says, "As soon as it clears the muzzle." Response back, "No, seriously how far will it go before it starts to drop?"

2. "Hey Jim, bullets are speeding up when they leave the muzzle, how much faster will they normally go before they start to slow down?" Jim cannot answer because he's gasping for breath in a fit of uncontrollable laughter.

Bottom line, it's nearly hopeless to help much.

Due to the long decades of socialist dreams and the determined efforts of America's professional uneducation system, I find that the very nice young people asking such bad questions rarely possess a sufficient grounding in science - or math - to accept the real answers.

Today's woke kid's world is kinda flat and they ALL know "science" says we and the polar bears will all burn to a crisp if we don't stop driving cars and running our community sustainable yurt's space heaters/air conditioners by the end of the year. What year is that you may ask? "Why, EVERY year you dummy!" they effectively say.

[selmerfan]

I've killed a lot of deer and been in on watching lots of deer killed. I've seen very, very few exceptions to the rule of "if the bullet (or arrow) is put in the right place, the deer dies". I can think of one mule deer that I watched my brother hit with a .308 Winchester, great placement, 150 gr. ballistic tip didn't penetrate well. Huge wound on the ribcage. We tracked him for over a mile before he finally gave in. I shot a deer with a bow at 25 yards, biggest WT I've ever had in range of any weapon. Good shot - slightly high. Pass through. Found the arrow. Tracked over two miles of cornfields. Farmer called me a week later and said he saw my buck in a slough when he was harvesting. Two weeks after that a neighbor called on opening day of rifle season "I shot your buck". Sure did. B&C 6x7. I helped him skin it. Scarred whorls from my broadhead were in the skin. Still don't know how he didn't die. Otherwise, deer that are recovered are from poor bullet placement. No more, no less. We all make mistakes. Sometimes the animal moves. Sometimes equipment fails. But bullet/projectile placement rarely, rarely fails. And there are many different paths to the vitals. Just make sure your bullet will get there from whatever angle you're shooting at.

[selmerfan]

ive killed ALOT of deer as anyone on here that knows me knows is fact. Ill say this. Ive never shot a deer hit it and shot again. Either they go down or dont and run off. Ive missed deer at LONG range and had them take a few leaps and stop and then shot and hit them. Ive walked up on deer ive tracked that were still alive and put them down with a pistol or rifle. But if you claim every deer youve shot died instantly or within visual distance of you. Then your either hunting where you can see for miles or you just havent shot many deer. Ive seen deer hit perfectly make 200 yards and that can be major tracking issues in some places we shoot deer. Deer are hard to predict. You can shoot 10 in the vitals and they drop right on the spot. You can hit #11 in the same spot and have it run 200 yards or more. Heck i can honestly say ive seen gut shot deer drop on the spot and in the same day had one hit in the vitals that ran off. This is why im a propent of not just using the smallest gun i can get away with but if anything using one on the powerful side for the game im shooting. Hit deer in the meat with any caliber and your going to loose that meat. Hit one in the ribs (lungs) with a 300 mag and it 9 times out of 10 is going down faster then if you hit it with a 308. Hit it there with either and all your loosing is ribs and that doesnt bother me. Have the deer of a lifetime step out at 400 yards instead of a 100 and youll thank God you took out that 300mag that day. You cant kill a deer to dead. Thin man hit on something very important too. If your not absolutely sure of your shot and that its within your skill range of the ethical range of the gun your using DONT SHOOT. Even following this rule if you shoot enough deer your going to mess up. Weve had a few guys that wanted to do crop damage shooting with us and we took them along and after the first day they were never asked again. Why. Because they sounded like a war zone where they were shooting. One guy shot 9 times one evening and had one dead deer. He claimed he missed all the others so it wasnt worth going over and checking for blood!!!!! Sad thing was he was proud of that deer he shot!!

Amen to all of this. My brother in law hit a big muley buck about 15 years ago when we were hunting West River SD and I had to help him track it. "My shot was perfect. He should be down." .30-06 with 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. When we finally caught up to him he missed him four times at about 200 yards when he was lying down with his head up. I finally pulled the trigger and put it where I wanted in the neck. His "perfect" shot was across the front of the brisket. Of course, this is the same guy that I did load workup for with his Browning A-Bolt, 57 gr. IMR 4350 and that 165 gr. Ballistic Tip. Then I guided him through loading his own on my equipment. He called the next weekend, wondering why his rifle wouldn't shoot any better than a 3" group. We hit the range and I had him put five downrange. Yup. 3" group at best. I asked for the rifle and sent 5 downrange. Exactly the same results as when I did load workup. sub-MOA. I loaded the rifle for him and asked him to shoot again, but put an empty in the chamber. Flinched like an abused dog when he pulled the trigger. "There's the problem".

[M-Tecs]

This deals with elk but it has some interesting observations https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/270-winchester-7mm-rem-mag-amp-300-win-mag-performance-differences-are-they-enough-to-matter?fbclid=IwAR1xBnesZqsK9JUVc-QNEuakiynlZlNjkAzisVnQxAW1sJtSvlWK4wc0xMI

[dverna]

This deals with elk but it has some interesting observations https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/270-winchester-7mm-rem-mag-amp-300-win-mag-performance-differences-are-they-enough-to-matter?fbclid=IwAR1xBnesZqsK9JUVc-QNEuakiynlZlNjkAzisVnQxAW1sJtSvlWK4wc0xMI

What kind of fool has two different bullets loaded in the same gun for the same hunt? I tend to ignore idiots.

Now, there may be a very good reason he hunts this way, but I cannot think of it.

[Eddie Southgate]

1 shot placed correctly should always equal 1 dead deer . I know a kid that has killed a ton of deer with a .17 rimfire , never known him to shoot one twice . The not enough gun argument don't hold water as far as I'm concerned . Costal Brown bears , maybe , deer , no way . Deer are lost due to bad shot placement and either lack of tracking knowledge or being too lazy to spend the time to recover the wounded deer. I been hunting a hair over 50 years and have eaten or gave away every deer I ever put a bullet in .

[Winger Ed.]

What kind of fool has two different bullets loaded in the same gun for the same hunt? I tend to ignore idiots.

The part about needing to consider the cost of shooting a 7Mag or .300 got me.

I may be among the ultra rich and not even know it:
For all it takes to go on a elk hunting trip and the over all expense of it-
the difference in the cost of shooting a .300Mag. over a.270 wouldn't even come up on my radar.

[Lloyd Smale]

The part about needing to consider the cost of shooting a 7Mag or .300 got me.

I may be among the ultra rich and not even know it:
For all it takes to go on a elk hunting trip and the over all expense of it-
the difference in the cost of shooting a .300Mag. over a.270 wouldn't even come up on my radar.

heck even crop damage shooting where we shoot a 100 deer a year whats 10 more grains of powder in each case. Even factory ammo. compare 270 to 300 mag. Maybe 10 bucks a box difference. So i would have to buy 5 boxes at so 50 bucks more. Heck lets say even a 100 bucks more. Now figure the meat you put in the freezer and what it saved on your food bill through the year. That 100 bucks is nothing. Heck spend a couple nights do all night searches for wounded deer and youd gladly give 50 bucks to walk up on that deer and go home to bed. My guess is that complaint about the cost comes from someone with 4 or 5 rifles. A nice 4x4 pickup to go hunting. Good hunting clothes and maybe even an atv or heck a camp to go hunting at. Probably spend more on beer in hunting season then the differnce in that ammo cost. Winger is right. Thats just digging deep to justify what your using. Its a non issue. If it gets so bad that i have to worry about the difference in cost between a box of 270s and 300 mags i wont be going hunting. ill be to conserned with getting off my duff and finding a job that pays me enough to actually live. I would surely know that somewhere along the line i made BIG MISTAKES!!

[Lloyd Smale]

well im sorry but your buddy with his 17 rimfire is an idiot that needs his kicked. Id like to watch you track a deer wounded by that pop gun in TN where theres not even any snow. Buddy must be full blown apache. 50 years and never for ANY reason lost a deer???? Either you have a bad memory or just didnt shoot that many deer in 50 years. Ive shot deer and had to track them when it started raining or a snow storm hit that covered tracks. Ive had deer run into elephant grass that you cant see a foot in front of you in and would have to be a lucky sob to come up on blood. ive seen deer shot with 2506s 243s 223s ect that left absoultely no blood trail. I probably shoot an average of 50 deer a year and so does my partner. Im sure a year went by that we didnt loose one. But most years we loose maybe one. Now both of us have been doing this for over 10 years. Both of us shoot more then most on here and are good shots and are WAY past buck fever. Fact of the matter is you can do everything right and yup even use enough gun and if you shoot enough deer your going to lose one even if you stay up all night looking. Anyone that wants to argue that is just like i said. Someone who just hasnt shot many deer. thats a fact and it just doesnt make sense to me to start out with a marginal gun that makes it more likely. Not when i have a safe full of guns that GET IT DONE.

[Lloyd Smale]

What kind of fool has two different bullets loaded in the same gun for the same hunt? I tend to ignore idiots.

Now, there may be a very good reason he hunts this way, but I cannot think of it.

yup just another blowhole with a computer that wants to pretend hes an expert when in fact hes an idiot.

[wildwilly501]

Lloyd when someone posts something so unbelievalbe.Just remember this https://suchwow.net/about-13-percent-of-people-are-pathological-liars/ i think the numbers higher on the internet

[Lloyd Smale]

Heck wildwilly this is still one of the better sites on the internet. Ive been on some ar15 sites that will make you spit out your coffee.

[wildwilly501]

There are some amazing stories on the internet.Big difference between internet hunting and real hunting.

[Geezer in NH]

When I shoot a deer if it runs I shoot it again until it falls or is out of sight. Where I hunt it is thick and I know the background as in hill side.

Why watch it run away?

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot deer a second time in the fields doing crop damage shooting. But in normal deer season we hunt out of blinds and you only have a window to shoot out of and its pretty much all thick woods and swamps. In my over 50 years of deer hunting like that have only got a second shot off once.

[Lloyd Smale]

There are some amazing stories on the internet.Big difference between internet hunting and real hunting.

yes sir!!

[megasupermagnum]

When I shoot a deer if it runs I shoot it again until it falls or is out of sight. Where I hunt it is thick and I know the background as in hill side.

Why watch it run away?

I'm in the same camp. I've thought about it, and I can not come up with one reason not to take another shot if you can. As Lloyd says, you don't always get the chance, but when I do, I shoot twice. Besides the brush, I believe the other part is that our deer are accustomed to shooting. I could be wrong, but I recall Lloyd hunts northern MI. I've done most of my hunting in central MN, and there is not a day that goes by without deer there hearing many shots all day. Often at night too. These deer do not associate shooting with danger, so they don't run from it. I've shot 2 deer a minute apart with a muzzleloader if that says anything.

[Good Cheer]

Think I'll stick with my 3/8" wide pieces of wheel weights. If I need to kill a deer that is. Used #375296, a compressed charge of 760 and a CCI-250 primer in necked down 45-70 cases. Been a few years but evolution is slower than I am so I'm pretty sure the deer haven't changed much. Hmm, but I do have that 320 grain hollow point mold that I never did try out.

[bowfin]

Does anyone really believe this person was losing lung/heart shot deer because he wasn’t using enough gun? I’ll call BS on that any day.

My first thought is, "How did he know he hit the deer with a lung/heart shot if he didn't recover the deer?"

My second thought is that every deer I have killed with a heart and/or lung shot took off on a dead run. If one doesn't have a good idea where to start looking, you might have a problem picking up the start of the blood trail. What I have seen with such a shot is that it starts with a drop or two, and every bound the blood trail gets exponentially easier to see until it looks like somebody spray painted the trail right before a piled up deer. The trick is to keep an eye on where the deer was hit. That would not be too much of a problem if the deer is standing by the big oak tree 40 yards away, but it can be if you shot it halfway across the cornfield, where every row looks alike. So if a guy doesn't mark the location of the deer last seen and is not somewhat capable of looking for blood, a guy could lose a heart/lung shot deer.

[bowfin]

The last deer I killed was 600 yards on a dead run...

...the deer was moving pretty fast as well.;)

[1hole]

The last deer I killed was 600 yards on a dead run...

...the deer was moving pretty fast as well.;)

I'm indeed impressed. Even when I was young I would have had a tuff time doing that at half the distance! ;)

[Lloyd Smale]

My first thought is, "How did he know he hit the deer with a lung/heart shot if he didn't recover the deer?"

My second thought is that every deer I have killed with a heart and/or lung shot took off on a dead run. If one doesn't have a good idea where to start looking, you might have a problem picking up the start of the blood trail. What I have seen with such a shot is that it starts with a drop or two, and every bound the blood trail gets exponentially easier to see until it looks like somebody spray painted the trail right before a piled up deer. The trick is to keep an eye on where the deer was hit. That would not be too much of a problem if the deer is standing by the big oak tree 40 yards away, but it can be if you shot it halfway across the cornfield, where every row looks alike. So if a guy doesn't mark the location of the deer last seen and is not somewhat capable of looking for blood, a guy could lose a heart/lung shot deer.

dont know how many deer i tracked at camp shot by my brother in law and nephews that made the claim i hit it right behind the shoulder and found them gut shot. Worse one was dads first year bow hunting. He came into camp and said he wounded a deer. Said he hit it right behind the shoulder and with a bow its possible to know that. I went looking with him and my brother in law. We found one drop of blood and luckily did have some snow on the ground. But there were tracks everywhere so it was tough following that one track. We found the deer about 200 yards into the swamp with an arrow stuck right in its skull!!! Had a nephew once came in from the woods from bow hunting and he said he shot a nice buck and hit it right behind the shoulder. We searched for almost 12 hours and never found a drop of blood. Ended up back at his blind and i looked up and there was a tree right in front of his blind he kind of used for cover. Low and behold there was an arrow stuck in it about 3 feet from the bottom of his tree blind.

[brass410]

I just use my vehicle, they're all one hit, right dead, right there,sometimes theres even something left to eat.

[toallmy]

I remember walking out from a morning hunt with a younger brother , when we walked out into a small field a good size doe stood 40-50 yards out . I swung up my pump shotgun and shot her in the chest - down she went , but then she got her front legs under herself so I shot her again - deg-gon if she don't try to get up again so I gave her the third slug . Not realizing I was loading a couple rounds in my pumpgun , my brother said how many times are you planning on shooting that deer !
I don't like tracking wounded game.

[Winger Ed.]

From the 80s to '07 when we had property in the Hill Country, the deer were like a second herd in the ranch lands there.
It was in 'low fence' country and I didn't even call it hunting. We just went down there during deer season to shoot a few.
There was never any excuse for taking a poor shot, or even one on a walking deer.

Only a couple of shots were over 100 yards, and then- not by much.
I'd let them walk by, and wait until one was standing stock still, then take a head shot with no brush or anything in between.
I never had to track one of them more than a second step.

One time I was shooting down a steep hill at about 110 yards with a .30-06. That deer took off so fast, I think I heard a sonic boom.
I looked for it just in case for a couple hours---- nothing. I figured it was a clean miss.

The next year, I shot another one a little closer, and it went down, and stayed down.
When dressing it out---- it had a scared .30cal. hole just above the base of its ear.

Back in my 7Mag days, I took it down there because I hadn't killed anything with it yet.
A eight point-- biggest one I'd seen down there walked by, turned, and stood looking at me so close the scope wouldn't quite focus.
I shot it in 'the boiler room'. It went down, got up, and ran about 30-40 yards before it ran out of gas.

I had another one go about 25 yards after being tagged with a 405FP from the .45-70.
I don't see how it ran that far. The wound channel looked like a basket ball went through there.

That's my tracking experiences.
But I never took any long range, difficult, or 'fancy' shots either.
I also fired a few hundred rounds a year at the range with the rifles I took to go shoot deer with.
And, the smallest one I ever took was my M1A with .308 loads of J-words.

[MT Gianni]

A young kid I know shot an antelope, it got up so he shot it again. It got up a third time and went down hard. When he went over there there were three dead antelope which was more than they had tags for.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Have not killed that many. But one shot did the trick.

[Lloyd Smale]

I just use my vehicle, they're all one hit, right dead, right there,sometimes theres even something left to eat.

ive killed a few with that weapon myself:bigsmyl2:

[gumbo333]

I’ve never killed a deer with a Dodge. But I’ve gotten several with a Chevy, Ford, Olds and Jeep. Some were DRT. Some ran off. I have never tried for a second shoot at those. I remember the Olds and Jeep were pretty deadly. No problem this year, deer really disappeared. But turkeys are another story, lots!

[brass410]

I’ve never killed a deer with a Dodge. But I’ve gotten several with a Chevy, Ford, Olds and Jeep. Some were DRT. Some ran off. I have never tried for a second shoot at those. I remember the Olds and Jeep were pretty deadly. No problem this year, deer really disappeared. But turkeys are another story, lots!

Yeah ,turkeys are really bad news for grilles hoods windshield pretty much anythin on the front of your vehicle I've seen some vehicles with the door pillers bent down from turkey strkes pretty much totaled the vehicle.

[Lloyd Smale]

I’ve never killed a deer with a Dodge. But I’ve gotten several with a Chevy, Ford, Olds and Jeep. Some were DRT. Some ran off. I have never tried for a second shoot at those. I remember the Olds and Jeep were pretty deadly. No problem this year, deer really disappeared. But turkeys are another story, lots!

we hit one with my chev one night on the way back from crop damage shooting with 3 in the back. Hit squarely and it went flying in the ditch on it side. No way i thought that deer was alive. Almost didnt bother because i figured if we did drag it home there would be no meat left anyway. buddy and i both hopped out of the truck and like dumb you know whats didnt bring a gun. We walked up to the deer and it hopped up and took off in the woods. Figured it might make a couple yards and pile up. Went back and we both got lights and guns and went in where it did. We found one drop of blood and being bullheaded spent 2 hours looking for that deer and never even found another scuffed track. Im sure that deer must have died but i know it made at least 200 yards in the woods because we searched every square in of that area. If it lived id bet it sure would have liked some oxycodone for a couple days. Bent my bumper and busted my grill and took out the headlight. Then i get to tell my deliverance story again. I was heading to dad and mas which is about 50 miles from here. Theres a scenic way to get there along a big lake. Came around the corner and there was a man and women in there 60s with a sport utility with AZ plates standing in the road. There vehicle was off the road at a strange angle. Figured they got in a wreck and stopped. When we got out the women was crying. I ask her if she was ok and she said "im fine but that deer is hurt bad" I looked in the ditch and there was a medium sized doe kicking. She said we dont know what to do. so Lloyd goes in the truck and grabs my glock 23 and walked up to it and put a bullet in its head. They both absolutely freaked. I seriously think they thought i was going to call a vet. I drug the deer out of the ditch to the side of the road and took out my knife and started gutting it. My wife was even shaking her head by now. the couple was absolutley freaking out. I gutted it and cut the two hind quarters off and cut the hide so i could get the back straps and i asked them if they wanted some meat. They both ran to there yuppy car and took off like a scalded rabbit. took the meat to dads and gave it to him. They must have though they were in a deliverance movie. They didnt realize that 75 percent of the people up here have hit deer at one time or another and most more then one. My wife still tells people that story.

[todd9.3x57]

i hit two doe at the same time. killed one outright, i had to slit the throat(had to put the knife into the doe's neck and slice outwards) of the doe. my '84 escort was finished.

[pls1911]

What? More than one?
perhaps my grandad is responsible, as we couldn't hunt the next year if we needed more than one shot.
We were sent out with single shot rifles and given two rounds.... with the expectation of returning one live round, one empty shell and one deer.

The training was one of marksmanship and discipline.
If you can't make the shot FOR SURE, you need to wear your big boy pants and PASS IT UP.

[white eagle]

At least 2, 30 round clips
they are tough

[Bigbore5]

I hunt thick brush in bottoms and funnels so s second shot usually just doesn't happen. Been exclusively a handgun hunter for 20 years now and usually use a 357 mag or max blackhawk for deer. I've only had one shot through both lungs go over 50yds before even though I use solid swc cast bullets exclusively. That one was shot through the bottom of the lungs with an RCBS 38-150kt. It had to bleed out internally instead of the lungs filling with blood. Even so I found it dead in about 100yds.

[Grayone]

we hit one with my chev one night on the way back from crop damage shooting with 3 in the back. Hit squarely and it went flying in the ditch on it side. No way i thought that deer was alive. Almost didnt bother because i figured if we did drag it home there would be no meat left anyway. buddy and i both hopped out of the truck and like dumb you know whats didnt bring a gun. We walked up to the deer and it hopped up and took off in the woods. Figured it might make a couple yards and pile up. Went back and we both got lights and guns and went in where it did. We found one drop of blood and being bullheaded spent 2 hours looking for that deer and never even found another scuffed track. Im sure that deer must have died but i know it made at least 200 yards in the woods because we searched every square in of that area. If it lived id bet it sure would have liked some oxycodone for a couple days. Bent my bumper and busted my grill and took out the headlight. Then i get to tell my deliverance story again. I was heading to dad and mas which is about 50 miles from here. Theres a scenic way to get there along a big lake. Came around the corner and there was a man and women in there 60s with a sport utility with AZ plates standing in the road. There vehicle was off the road at a strange angle. Figured they got in a wreck and stopped. When we got out the women was crying. I ask her if she was ok and she said "im fine but that deer is hurt bad" I looked in the ditch and there was a medium sized doe kicking. She said we dont know what to do. so Lloyd goes in the truck and grabs my glock 23 and walked up to it and put a bullet in its head. They both absolutely freaked. I seriously think they thought i was going to call a vet. I drug the deer out of the ditch to the side of the road and took out my knife and started gutting it. My wife was even shaking her head by now. the couple was absolutley freaking out. I gutted it and cut the two hind quarters off and cut the hide so i could get the back straps and i asked them if they wanted some meat. They both ran to there yuppy car and took off like a scalded rabbit. took the meat to dads and gave it to him. They must have though they were in a deliverance movie. They didnt realize that 75 percent of the people up here have hit deer at one time or another and most more then one. My wife still tells people that story.

Too bad you didn't have the soundtrack from 'Deliverance' to play for them that would have really set the scene off. I can hear the banjo music now, LOL!

[TurnipEaterDown]

At least the thread seems steered to an area of humor rather than an '...oh no, the thread that will not die (unlike the deer)...' area.

I remember one deer I hit w/ my 95 F150 on a Freeway entrance ramp (btw: my theory is to exit the ramp > speed limit, as brakes work better than accelerator for merging...).
Hit the deer on front corner, sent the bugger spinning off onto embankment. Popped up, ran off.

I shot a deer during season once. 44 R SBH, but beside the point. It croaked (1 shot), so gutted, skinned & processed. Rear quarter large bone had a large bumpy mass indicative of fracture which wasn't a clean break, and vascular structure around the site that was very much enlarged and prolific. No tumor, so not likely cancer. Indications to me of severe blunt trauma, like car hit. That deer healed up and then met its demise via our clean up method.

More stories:
I watched a buck on a bait pile one year (I only had a doe permit) breathing out it's neck. My uncle shot same description buck year before in neck w/ an 06. I really think it was same deer (if someone wants apology for not having tracking GPS or DNA kit, you have it) that effectively had a backyard tracheotomy. Sort of turned me off the '...shoot at neck and clean miss or die...' argument.

Non deer: Cue Deliverance music per Lloyd, friends and I were in WY shooting PDs years ago. It was well over 100 °F in the sun for days (tent sleeping), and my friends said I was acting goofy at times. We were 63 miles from town, and one day some people with out of state plates drive up and start asking directions. My friend swears I was pointing at the map with the muzzle of my Ruger SBH, I swear I wasn't. We do agree on the outcome: these people ended up looking at me somewhat sideways, and then they just drove off. Good story though, when you get the full 10 minute run down.

[Beaverhunter2]

I've never shot a deer more than once.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I usually hit the heart or pretty close to it, but I’ll hit them a second time if the opportunity presents itself (not often) and they are still lucid. No reason to make them suffer or make the tracking job longer than it needs to be. Might lose a little meat, but the brush is thick once you get out of the hayfield I hunt and I’d hate to lose one.

[GLynn41]

For me over the last 40 years or so-- I have notice several things--one shot is the norm,,,,isfyou put the one shot in the right place ...deer may run a bit -- heart shot a bit more--
With cast lead boolits-- and big bores .54 down to .41 -Mz loaders and handguns- reaction were similar,, the deer was not as impressed it seemed with I shot them with as I was.. . cast WLN has worked well.. the two cast hp I used were no better than the WLN but it was only two-- I still think cup points and hp should do better. but ...
still one shot was the norm

[BadgerShooter]

An old friend of mine since passed, in his youth worked at a meat locker in Colorado. He talked to everyone he could who brought in game to find out caliber, bullet, range and number of shots.
Everyone killed with the first shot and there wasn't one under 400 yards. Amazing!!

[35 Rem]

An old friend of mine since passed, in his youth worked at a meat locker in Colorado. He talked to everyone he could who brought in game to find out caliber, bullet, range and number of shots.
Everyone killed with the first shot and there wasn't one under 400 yards. Amazing!!

Ain't it amazing how that works? :) Nobody ever misses a shot either when telling a story and all their rifles shoot 1/4 MOA without exception.

[Winger Ed.]

Everyone killed with the first shot and there wasn't one under 400 yards. Amazing!!

That's no big deal.
I've met guys that have tagged a couple that ended up being shot over the curvature of the earth while running between trees.

[GLynn41]

while I like a25.06--- i met a guy whose 25 shot and hit at 4-500 yards by holding dead on no hold over-- I told him he did not have 25.06 he had a lazer :)

[Murphy]

I've never shot a deer more than once.

Shoot em' good, and one shot is all you need.

Murphy

[Fernando]

Depending in how cold and late in the day they come out I usually have 2 or 3 shots or maybe a beer or 2:wink:

[BadgerShooter]

The vast majority of deer I have shot have dropped where i shot them, but I guess I don't live in that perfect world where everything always works out and I never need another shot. Adrenalized deer can absorb an amazing amount of punishment and go hundreds of yards with very lethal damage. In my area, that can put a deer on someone else's property and then the fun begins. If a deer doesn't drop at the shot, you can be sure I am sending more to make sure it does not get to a property line.

[farmerjim]

Every deer I have shot with a rifle were DRT ( DEAD RIGHT THERE) tHE 2 That I shot in my back field with 12 ga 00 buck at less than 50 yds took a slug to the head to kill. The other one I ran out of ammo shooting at the deer with his spine cut by one shot. He could move only with his front legs. I had to go get my hunting partner to come and shoot it.
I tried patterning my shotgun and the buckshot was all over the place.
I no longer use buckshot.
I shot an 8 point at the same place with my crossbow. I saw the bolt hit him right in the chest. We followed the blood trail for 400 yds. Next morning we followed it for another 100 yds with no deer. The next season I was getting my food plot ready and looked down and saw something orange in the grass. I picked it up and it was the bolt that hit the deer. The mechanical broad head had not opened. It only punched a small hole and the deer got away. I will never use a mechanical point again. A fixed one only shoots 1 in lower at 50 yds.

[megasupermagnum]

I tried patterning my shotgun and the buckshot was all over the place.
I no longer use buckshot.


You never patterned your gun, and it's the buckshots fault!? I sure hope you at least sight in your rifles.

[pls1911]

One.... Only one shot
Hunt with a single shot...
Shoulder placement or pass...
Life can be simple.