Excessive smoke in M1 Grand shooting cast

[commando223]

I tested out some 190gr cast bullets for my M1 Garand yesterday and they shot pretty well with 36gr of IMR-4350 but the smoke was pretty bad. It was actually almost musket level where I could no longer see the target clearly. I am using powder coat and the bullets are gas checked so I can't understand why they smoke so much also no issues with cycling. Another interesting thing is there seems to be what looks like unburnt powder in the action/chamber.

[Thumbcocker]

Be happy.

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[popper]

PC will smoke some if not cured completely. But I suspect the port pressure is high, action opens before it should and that slow powder doesn't get complete burn and creates the smoke.

[commando223]

I wonder if that could be due to a worn recoil spring or maybe it needs a different gas plug

[pworley1]

I would try some IMR 4895 before I started changing springs.

[Winger Ed.]

Sounds like the powder is not getting complete combustion.
Sort of like when you see black smoke coming from a car.

I'd try some faster powder, even some of the shot gun/pistol powders you see listed in the cast loading book.
I never tried it in a Garand, but I really like 'the load' of 13 gr. Red Dot in my Rem 700.
It 'feels' like it should have enough recoil to kick a Grand open, I'm not sure though.

[Adam Helmer]

commando,

I use that same boolit and 36 grains of IMR4895 and a CCI 200 primer and get no smoke. I think 4350 is too slow for the Garand and that cast boolit. The unburnt powder is a BIG Clue.

Adam

[commando223]

Alright looks like I need to try a different powder thanks guys I was trying to find another use for the IMR-4350 since I got an 8lb keg of it. But I'll just keep using it for the Mosin I had good results with 39gr behind the same bullet.

[Winger Ed.]

I was trying to find another use for the IMR-4350 since I got an 8lb keg of it.

Obviously this is why you 'need' a .270Win.
It was the best I ever found for mine with 150s.

And it really shined in my Rem 700 .30-06 using lighter bullets like 165s.

[GregLaROCHE]

3031 always worked well In my M1 Garand.

[Sig556r]

3031 or 4064 IMRs work well for me with cast boolits in both 30-06 & 308

[Bigmancrisler]

I haven’t shot any cast bullets out of my garand yet but I use 39.6gr of H335 under a Hornady 150gr (#3037) pill and it has a nice light kick, very accurate.


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[Texas by God]

I've been using up some old IMR 4350 with pc'd cast bullets in 30-30 and 30-40 bolt action rifles. Yes, there's un burnt powder on the shooting bench but no smoke noted. And good accuracy. I've always read that Garands shouldn't be fed slow burning powders- so no help there.

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[AlaskaMike]

Sounds like the powder is not getting complete combustion.
Sort of like when you see black smoke coming from a car.

I'd try some faster powder, even some of the shot gun/pistol powders you see listed in the cast loading book.
I never tried it in a Garand, but I really like 'the load' of 13 gr. Red Dot in my Rem 700.
It 'feels' like it should have enough recoil to kick a Grand open, I'm not sure though.

No, any safe load of Red Dot won't give enough pressure at the port to cycle the Garand.

It could certainly be very accurate though, it'll just act like a straight pull bolt action.

[AlaskaMike]

I use traditionally lubed Lyman 311332 over 36 grains of H4350, and I don't have any significant smoke or unburned powder. As mentioned earlier, I wonder how worn your op rod spring is?

Years ago, member BruceB did extensive testing of slower powders with cast bullets in his M1A and Garand. His goal was not only an accurate cast load, but one that would reliably cycle the action. He found that he had to go to powders considered "too slow" with jacketed bullet loads to get what he wanted. Faster powders like Unique, Red Dot, 2400, etc could certainly give good accuracy, but would turn the rifle into a straight pull bolt action, which is not what he wanted.

His efforts are in this very forum in this sticky thread: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?3558-7-62x51-NATO-(-308-WCF)-in-the-Springfield-M1A
It's a great read, and anyone shooting cast in the M1 or M1A should really take the time to read it.

If you want to shoot cast in the M1, keeping velocity in the 1600-2000 fps range, but also have the port pressure in the (8k psi?) range to reliably cycle, then you're likely going to need to look at these slower powders. Some have success with the 4895 variants, but I found in both my CMP M1s that I had to push velocity too high for best accuracy in order to get it to cycle reliably.

For the OP, I'd either bump up the charge of IMR 4350, or try 4895. If you do indeed have a worn op rod spring, then 4895 could certainly work better for you, and would be worth a try.

Good luck,
Mike

[405grain]

The brother of a friend of mine picked up a sporterized 1893 Mauser in 7x57 so I loaded up some cartridges for him. The rounds were powder coated and gas checked rcbs 7mm-145-sil over 28 grains of IMR-3031. We went shooting last weekend and those rounds were smoking like a steam train. His rifle has a carbine length military barrel, and I'm guessing the excess smoke was from incomplete powder combustion in the bore. my buddy and I were both shooting loads with AA5477 (double based powder), and we weren't having smoke problems. Naturally we ribbed the brother, referring to his "new" rifle as "the musket". When I reload his brass I'm thinking that I'll up the charge to 29 grains and switch to magnum primers. In spite of the smoke his rifle shot fine and he was able to keep his shots on target.

[Stewbaby]

Agree on the powder being slow and trying 4895 or 4064. I have trouble with IMR4350 burning completely in a long m/96 Swede barrel.

[GregLaROCHE]

I had a 45/70 that wasn’t getting complete powder burn. I tried crimping harder, magnum primers and filler to keep all the powder close to the primer. Nothing made any significant difference. I went to a faster powder and all problems were solved, including better accuracy.

[charlie b]

I shoot PC bullets in my M1. Both 210gn and the 165gn XCB. I usually use 3031 for velocities in the 2000-2100fps range. Cycles the action just fine. Some have not had that luck with the 165 so my recoil spring may be 'worn' (it's an early 1944 rifle).

[georgerkahn]

Two things I consider "Gospel" with my precious M1 Garand are Primer choice and Powder choice. For primers, I use CCI 34; and, my powder choice is none other than IMR4895. (My loading, behind ~160 grain bullets is 44.5).
With lever, pump, bolt, and single-shot actions, to my way of thinking is "if it propels the bullet out of the barrel and hits the target" as my starting point.
HOWEVER, there is, I have been told, a pretty narrow window of hopeful-long-life component selection for the Garand. It is not only the expansion provided by detonated powder, but also its rate!
I have both seen and heard of Garand blow-ups; and, I even hand-delivered a Garand a fellow had put "off the shelf (name brand) .30-'06 cartridges" in -- which had bent the operating rod as well as other maladies.
That writ' -- PLEASE do some reading re both how glorious this rifle is IF LOADED CORRECTLY! Not only the longevity of your firearm is at stake, but your well-being, too.
I am most happy that a lot of smoke has been your (only) malady.
BEST wishes!
geo

[Bigmancrisler]

Master Po M1 Garand Reload Data
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=5618&share_tid=234195&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emdshooters%2Ecom%2Fshowthr ead%2Ephp%3Ft%3D234195&share_type=t&link_source=app


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[fgd135]

Old Master Po is useful data for jacketed, not cast, boolits, fwiw.

[Bigmancrisler]

Old Master Po is useful data for jacketed, not cast, boolits, fwiw.

Figured it couldn’t hurt to have the information in another corner of the internet lol


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[JWFilips]

PC or Lubed? If Lubed What lube?

[Alstep]

Old M1 highpower shooter here. Stay away from slow powders in the M1. Since slow burning powders burn slow, the pressure is higher near the muzzle because the powder is still burning as the bullet passes the port. That high pressure has a tendency to slam the op rod, sometimes bending it and certainly putting extra stress on the rest of the moving parts. Not to mention the bolt slamming into the back of the receiver.

Medium burning powders are pretty much consumed by the time the bullet passes the port near the muzzle, so the pressure is much lower, and everything functions reliably without beating up the rifle.

Powders like Varget, 4895, 4064, 748, RL-15 are ones recommended for the M1 & M14.

[LeonardC]

When I first read this thread I kind of cringed at the mentions of "worn op-rod spring". I would not run my Garands with a weak op-rod spring. I recently bought some new ones from ORION 7 and they can be bought from GarandGear as well. $7 or $8 each is $ well spent.