What to make of an American Rifleman artilce

[curioushooter]

In American Rifleman, Oct 2021, pg 81 on an article titled RCBS: Handloading's Helping Hand by John Haviland "field editor" is the following, which surprises me. It contains quotes from a RCBS representative named Hemeyer.

"About the only shot-shell re-loaders now are target shooters who want that one exact load for their shotgun and hunters making specialty loads like for pheasant hunting

Actually, this doesn't surprise me much, as shot-shell reloading is hardly an economic savings. You can often buy a given load for the same as you can assemble it from purchased shot, wads and powder. For years the only thing I hunted with was a 12 gauge one ounce Lee slug in a Federal Gold Medal hull with 50 grains of Blue Dot backing it up. Ouch! This was a huge savings over commercial deer slugs, though. How many states are still forcing the shotgun-only thing, though? I know Ohio gave it up. Is Illinois the only one left? And buckshoot can be cast up. Savings can be had there too. The only shotshells I've ever reloaded have been slugs and buck.

Hemeyer went on to say that RCBS may discontinue its shot-shell reloading lines.

This is where it gets interesting:

"Bullet casting remains prevalent only among handloaders of those cartridges that lack commonly available projectiles. The difficult of finding inexpensive lead alloys--and the sun setting on the growth of cowboy action shooting--have also stalled the practice of bullet casting. The use of progressive presses to crank out volume so handgun cartridges has also waned in recent years because of inexpensive factory-loaded cartridges like 9mm Luger. "

He then went to talk about the hot new area being precision rifle shooting, and making and selling special high precision dies for that discipline. Excuse me, but wasn't bench-rest and national match always a "precision" sort of thing? And it is certainly true that cheap 9mm and 223 are not much of a savings to reload if your only priory is things going bang.

Do you guys really believe this to be accurate? Or more like an excuse?

I no longer have any cartridges that lack commonly available projectiles. Everything I own I can buy, if it can be BOUGHT! Frankly the reason why I like cast bullets is not only because they are cheaper, especially as bore size goes up, compare a 50 cent Hornady XTP to 4 cents of lead in 44 or 45, it's because many classic loads used cast bullets and they work. With handguns, especially big bore revolvers, there is absolutely nothing wanting in a cast boolit...

And then there's the matter of replica guns, which must use lead projectiles. Those swaged balls Hornady sells are mighty pricey.

It seems to me that the boolit casting landscape is better than ever too. There are more molds, of better quality, than every. I have no problem sourcing lead and never have. Scrapyards abound in Indiana and Ohio. Though I think too many casters got accommodated to "free" wheel-weights which IMO were never that good of a alloy for boolit casting, only passable. Companies like roto-metals have made buying the proper alloyant metals so easy, too.

I mean if RCBS wants to ditch bullet casting, so be it, but I think it has more to do with RCBS being part of ammunition manufacturer (CCI/SPEER/FEDERAL all part of Vista Outdoors).

Another thing is that with cast boolits you can pretty much recycle them. I have a couple hundred pounds of bullet metal that I have been cycling through for years now catching most of them in my sand trap. I remelt them and cast them again.

[Thumbcocker]

One YouTube poster, the "Yankee Marshall " posted some time back that lead was poison and should be taken out of bullets since we have non lead alloys and polymer projectiles now. This guy posts about self defense and such.

It may be that the mainstream shooting community is all about tactical and polymer and is ready to toss the "fudds" to the wolves.

I see very few new shooters showing any interest in reloading let alone casting. We are dinosaurs in the twilight of an era.

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[Tar Heel]

If my interest lies in BPCR shooting, then I am inclined to think everyone is interested in it. Sadly, this is not the case. Commercial producers of reloading gear will definitely be better predictors of industry trends than the individual shooter or a shooting discipline club (group of shooters). They most certainly know where the purchasing power is for their product. Over the decades, I have seen clubs come and go, shooting disciplines come and go, calibers come and go, powders come and go, manufacturers come and go, bulletin boards come and go, and sadly shooters come and go. Anyone recall PPC shooting which was all the rage in the 80's? If I showed a millennial a rat gun, they would not have a clue what they were looking at.

I agree with the RCBS comment on the sunsetting of Cowboy Action. It has, in my opinion, become a toy race. Those who can afford it, win the matches. Sadly IDPA has gone that way as well. As have many many other shooting disciplines.

Barring the latest pandemic mess upsetting the apple cart, it was CHEAPER to purchase my 9mm ammo for competition, than it was to reload it. Same with 223, 45ACP and 38Spl. Now of course, if you can find components, you can produce ammo. Cost is no longer the point. Having it at all is the point and we are seeing all kinds of beginners both in casting and reloading asking some very silly questions. Whatever.

I do hold with the observations of RCBS, Lyman, Lee and other large manufacturers regarding industry trends. It is factually, their bread and butter - not a hobby. They can also see the larger picture where we, the little guys, can only see our little patch of the industry.

I sense for sure that the shooting sports as we knew them only a decade ago - are done. Everyone now wants to be a "sniper" or a "tactical warrior", or some other such nonsense. Seems the whole face of the industry is changing. But then again, I may be just getting old.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I think Mr. Hemeyer is in a unique position to make an assessment of trends in the reloading business. Also, it's true that compared to the entire massive population us reloaders are and always have been a drop in the bucket.

At the same time, it's interesting to note how not only all the ammo sold out in the recent shortages, but all reloading equipment and supplies as well. So, there is still interest, but how much is debatable.

DG

[TurnipEaterDown]

In my thoughts, Couple things to keep in mind on things like articles such as what prompted the discussion:

Magazine writers most often like to write things that sell the magazine. Not so much to inform you, more so to sell the advertising space and entertain the reader (excite, enthrall, do just about anything to make the reader emotional and Stop Thinking).
Many magazine writers create things that (to me) just make public their ignorance, while being cloaked as "fact". I stopped reading any car magazines 25+ years ago because of this, and as far as firearm related, it is in about the same bucket for me and I can only really find useful writing in some few magazines by Wolf publishing. If you have a different view of Wolf publications, that's OK, but I find that for me they have been (mostly) beneficial reading.

Corporate business people are (by and large) concerned primarily about Growth. No institutional investor wants anything to do with a stable mature business any longer. They demand growth. Growth comes from new interest in the product family/category. Where does new interest often come from? A great deal of interest comes from the inexperienced (experienced people in a market generally have made up their mind where they are in it) , and the newly interested have had their interest stirred by something outside of the actual market. Look at the environment that inexperienced people get their interest elevated by, re: shooting. Sniper movies, sniper video games, etc. Also the personal protection (CCW) gambit draws a lot of new shooters. The corporate interests will turn their attention to these arenas. It is to them purely about growth, and there has been a Lot of consolidation in the firearm/ammunition business. These aren't small companies. These are formerly small companies piled into larger corporate groups these days.

To me, though certainly a dedicated caster, I don't think that the new shooter is generally a caster. They don't know that much yet about firearms, and haven't seen new paths to refine their interests. Also, new found excitement can lead to an increased willingness to spend money. For the ones that stay with shooting, and lose the rose colored glasses that brought them in, they may find that casting creates a new avenue, and lowers cost in handgun / rifle shooting. This was what I did. I still shoot jacketed almost exclusively for hunting (except large pistols), but 90ish % of my shooting is done with cast bullets. Range time is shooting. Hunting is being in the field pursuing game animals.

I think the cast bullet thing is generally related to mature shooters, and may well be fairly stable, and hence doesn't '...see the love...' from entities like RCBS.

Shotguns, I don't have an opinion. I have a couple (double 20, first gun I ever owned & a double 12 which was my grandfather's), but I just don't use them too much. As a result, the sunk costs of equipment to reload doesn't appeal to me, and I don't engage socially with very many dedicated shotgun users.

[Electrod47]

Yes I read the article also and agree with Tarheel and Thumbcocker the shooting hobby we have all enjoyed for the last 50+ years is unrecognizable to me lately. Started reloading in 1977 when I bought my first center fire .22 a mannlicher stocked H&R Hornet at Smitty's Bait and Tackle shop on Hwy 95 in Bullhead City Arizona for the princely sum of 70 Bucks. I asked for a box of shells. 17.50!! What! Got a Lee Loader and some Sierra bullets and some 2400 and never looked back. Reloading was essential then so that I could afford to shoot. I loaded shotshell back then with a Lee cause a box of reloads cost 2.50 and store bought was 3.00. It was the doing it as a form of self reliance.
In my multiple reloading benches I have multiple presses set up for the 14 calibers I load for these days.
The one thing about the whole business is its been a therapy for me through the years. I'v saved every gun related magazine and firearm related book I thought was relevant to me. And thats alot! I'v plunked down my hard earned money over the years for quality arms and travel to enjoy hunting all across this nation. I have 2 sons both turned 50 years of age now. They got started young as you could imagine. Both are successes in their technical fields. One followed me into the Steel Mill the other is a director of imaging at a major hospital. Neither one at this point in their lives wants to imitate the old man spending his spare time and money hunting and reloading. And these guys represent the generation that could have benefited the most from what was going to be left behind. I go through my old 1970's Handloader and Rifle mags when I its cold out like today. I was looking at 1981 Guns and Ammo Annual today and noticed there were at least 15 guns from that issue I had acquired over a 5 year period after that thick periodical came out. We used to follow through with what we read. I have always been big on Side by Side shotguns. Lever Actions and Big Bore handguns. I only sporadically take a subscription for gun rags any more, they make me sick most of the time. Mississippi Dr. Dabbs now and then can be interesting though. Stopped giving money to the NRA. Can you believe they are just a bunch of crooks!! How did that happen???
And to conclude my little rant on today's state of affairs I make a general observation. Years ago people bought guns to go hunting. Today people 20-30 years old buy guns to go bang. By and large these same 20-30 year old's are not going to spend the hundreds of dollars to get into the loading game today, let alone spend the time to learn properly. The younger crowd I have witnessed in any hunting shooting scenario have no sense of self preservation in their gun handling. I foresee all this recent gun buying just adding weight to peoples closets and all the recent shortages of components going to the production of commercial ammo to provide the bang. Oh yeah and now ammo producers, reloading suppliers have discovered how to make the real mullah. Limit whatever and just double the price.

[Thumbcocker]

We are witnessing the current phase of our society evolving from rural to urban. Rural values if self reliance and providing for you and yours through your own efforts are waning.

An urbanized society focuses more on specialists rather than jacks of all trades. It is a more efficient but also more soulless society. Doing stuff for yourself is viewed as inefficient, old fashioned, and unnecessary.

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[dverna]

I have a rule of thumb I use to determine when I make or buy. If I am not saving a minimum of $10/hr, I do not make it. Many years ago I bought 100k cast bullets mostly for 9mm and .38/.357. I paid something like $50/k. I can cast, lube, and size 2000 bullets in about 8 hours. Alloy back then was $1/lb and 2000 bullets weighed about 40 lbs and so alloy cost was $40. I was not going to spend 8 hours to save $60 on plinking ammunition when I worked full time. I had a life.

Today alloy is about $1.85/lb. 2000 bullets will cost me $75 in alloy. Cost to buy bullets is $165. $90 saved and I have time so it "Pays" for me to cast.

I was saving about $1/box on cheap Top Guns and $4/box on AA and STS Trap shells buying shot by the ton, wads/primers and powder by the case. I used about 20k shells a year when I competed. I could produce about 20-25 boxes and hour so I reloaded. 800 boxes at a saving of $2/box made sense. $40-50/hr return on my time. I used two automated progressives that cost $4000. Would have been silly doing it on a MEC 600 at 3-4 boxes an hour.

Some casting is a waste of time. That nails it for the .223. I buy bullets for $80/1000. Doing it for "fun" is not a motivator for me. It is always about cost savings and performance. If I am not saving over $10/hr....forget about it.

I agree with some of the article but not all of it. Some of us may not like it because it upsets our apple cart, but a reloading company makes money selling things the market needs. And in some cases, we are not the market.

[murf205]

Mr Hemeyer sounds like a bean counter and that is not necessarily a bad thing 'cause RCBS has got to make a $ too, but my LGS's can't keep reloading starter kits in stock and the section where the components are is always crowded. Some of the people I have talked to have driven 100 miles to buy components. My 2 ranges consist of 50% handloaders at one and 75% at the other, by my observation. As far as casting, well I like to do it and one reason is to never be dependent on supply chains or political whims.

[trapper9260]

There is more now starting getting into reloading then what some writers say. For how it been for the past few years and last year more is looking into reloading, more jacket then cast . Because lack of ammo and the price now and have to have . That is why reloading supplies is one reason they are short. Same as shotgun shells , they use to be cheap , now the new normal price is higher then some can afford. There is more gun owners and they need their ammo other wise it is just a paper weight . Then you have alot of want a bees like was stated by Tar Heel about all want to be snipers and all. But none want to go in the service and live the life that some on here did doing it. This is going to be a interesting times and year also .

[Bigslug]

I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in a guy from RCBS's stance.

They make a GREAT mold, but only in iron, and only in 1 or 2 cavity.

They make my preferred casting pot, but others may balk at its price.

Lube-sizer parts may not be their bread and butter.

If they want to downsize to specialize in making dies for the 5.56 and 9mm jacketed crowd, that's there prerogative - I suspect other mold companies are eating their lunch right now anyway.

I have observed that there are many shooters who do not want to cross into reloading, and many reloaders hesitant to cross into casting. That said, however, the current shortage appears to be affecting mold availability as well.

Attendance at the club my father and I belong to seems to have tapered off recently, presumably due to ammo shortages. Those that want to shoot will take the plunge. Those that don't, won't.

[GhostHawk]

RCBS makes great tools, but I don't trust their plan for the future.

If/when the Dem's get their way you'll have your name and address on every box of ammo you buy.
They decide they don't want to sell to you, your up the crick with no paddle.

Now I have not been loading much lately with primers either totally unavailable or double or more their old cost.
But you can bet that If I'd had a need I'd of been loading like crazy.

[Tar Heel]

So far, all replies have been amazing to read. There is a common thread as well. Notice that most replies come from members here for at least 10 years. The replies from the "newer" members parrot the other replies. I bet most of us contributing are in our metallic years. This has been very good reading. It is extremely rare for me to read a post anymore which maintains its original point throughout. Usually within 20 replies the thread has been hijacked or several participants have gotten into a pissing contest.

Please keep the commentary coming!

[charlie b]

First, as noted above, those of us who reload and cast are in the minority. Really not even a minority. Just a pimple on the butt of a giant. I would guess that less than 1 in 1,000 of gun owners are reloaders (probably a lot less than that).

Second, the boom in gun ownership and ammo hoarding, IMHO, is a combination of TV/movies about the SHTF scenarios (eg, Walking Dead) and uncertainty about governments worldwide (because they have all proven themselves incompetent and morally corrupt, both conservatives and liberals/socialists). Combine those with the issues with law enforcement recently (defunding police, fear of LEO's and inability of govt's to control riots) and self defense becomes more of interest to the average person.

Third, the SHTF types buy up guns and ammo. When they can't get ammo they decide to buy reloading and casting gear to satisfy their 'prepper' needs.

None of these people ever intend to use this stuff on a regular basis. They just want to 'be ready' when things fall apart.

It does mean there are more millions of people out there with guns who really don't know how to use them. One of these days they will meet their 'quota' of guns and ammo and the gun related mfgs will see their sales drop off below pre-COVID levels.

If I were a gun mfg I'd not bother with reloaders or casters. Let the minor companies (Lee, Lyman, Magma, etc) deal with them. Remember that RCBS is owned by one of the larger sporting goods conglomerates nowdays.

[Old Caster]

I would think that Bullseye shooters are in the minority anyway but many of us do it because we can make more accurate bullets than we can buy regardless the cost. In many pistols if not most a cast bullet is the most accurate possible. It just has to be the right mold, alloy, caster and load to do it. A good example is the Les Baer target 45 I bought in the early 90's was after a lot of testing the most accurate with a 200 grain Saeco 069 bullet with 3.6 grains of Clays powder. A friend bought one just like it in around 2010 and I gave him some of my loads to shoot in it and wound up with about 4-5 inches at 50 yards out of the RR. I thought it was just the amount of powder and varied the load with it and failed every time. He tried some loads with 231 and got 2 inches. I tried some of his loads and got 5 inches. This just shows how necessary experimentation is. If shooting factory, we are stuck with whatever the bullet is, powder, and load and my cast bullet showed up to be the most accurate for a bunch of different shooters. My friend Vic shot a 99 slow fire at 50 yards with my bullet and his self accurized pistol with I believe 4 grains of 700x. Most pistols won't do this with a factory load much less do well enough for a person who, as good as he is,
still makes at least small mistakes to do this.

[Land Owner]

If ONLY one million, out of say 200+/- million households harbor reloaders and casters, then there are, for all intents and purposes, one million MORE "small factories" making rounds than just the Corporate types. We will never meet or exceed the Corporate rate of production. We will continue to produce far and long AFTER the Corporate types lay down their arms. MOST of the equipment purchased is good to go for three lifetimes. Only the inability to purchase consumable components will wrest this magnificent hobby from our capable hands.

[JohnH]

I don't recognize the shooting industry of today (by industry I mean, makers, shooters, sports, buyers, magazines, the whole kit and kaboodle so to speak) I'm not surprised that Mr. Hemeyer thinks that Cowboy Action shooting is twilighting, it's hardly reasonable to think there was ever much of an attraction to the sport for people who have not one clue who Howdy Doody or Roy Rogers is. Guys I work with who are mid twenties to early thirties have never seen The Wild Bunch, For A Fist Full OF Dollars and wouldn't know what western character Richard Boone played on TV nor that Rowdy is where Clint Eastwood got his start. Heaven forbid I bring up High Noon. Cowboy action shooting twilighting? Imagine that. These guys like my Blackhawk and think it's amazing I can smoke 6" plates at 25 yards with it. Meanwhile, they love their latest version of whatever plastic fantastic wondernine they can't hit a pie plate with at 10 yards consistently but I don't think it matters to them, they like hearing it go BANG!

Echoing another poster, when you compare the cost of RCBS's or Lymans molds to NOE, Arsenal, or even LEE it's just impossible in todays dollars to pay out the best part of 100 bucks for a two cavity mold when the same dollar or less will buy a 4, 5, or 6 banger. RCBS is not selling molds because the market's dying, they are not selling molds because they have not invested in the machinery and technology to continue to compete in the modern market place. There is no good reason they could not produce top quality aluminum molds like NOE, they made a decision in a board room one day to let someone else have the market and now they have the nerve to tell half truths about why they are in the situation they are in with this market. Bad on them. Good on those with the foresight and entrepreneurship to make the investment in sweat, tears and dollars to carve out a profitable place in the market for themselves. RCBS didn't lose anything, they walked away from it. I have several RCBS molds on my shelf and like every one of them. They cast great bullets easy. But when a 6 banger of the same design can be had for a third to the same cost, where do they think the money is going to go?

As to cheap ammo, I'm not convinced Mr. Hemeyer is on top of things there either. Yeah, 9mm and 223 one could buy cheaper then they could reload two years ago, but this ain't two years ago. I'm around on several different boards and lots of new reloaders are coming on line starting out reloading..... 9mm and 223 and their whole approach is to multiply their ammo availability, they plan on both reloading and buying factory ammo because neither supply route is consistent enough at this time to provide their needs (wants) and lots of guys are beginning casters. Powder coating has revolutionized cast bullet shooting, with even some cast bullet makers offering powder coated or Hi Tech finished product. Go to You Tube and search powder coated bullets, there are hours of video one can watch on casting and powder coating and it ain't us old guys driving this. It's our grandchildren. And it ain't just a bunch of old farts supporting this list of makers https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/list-of-mold-makers/ and every week someone is posting about new press/first time press purchases here https://www.reddit.com/r/reloading/

The gun rag industry does not support reloading as they once did either. Writers like Ross Seyfried, Bob Milek, Rick Jamison, Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Ken Waters. Guns and Ammo and Shooting Times used to regularly run how to articles about handloading. Handloader WAS about handloading. I buy Shooting times these days to read Alan Jones and have an online subscription to Handloader mostly to relieve boredom, but John Barsness is almost always a good read, but I haven't read anything from a writer in years that leaves me feeling like "I want to go do that". I'm not sure I can even figure out who they are talking to anymore.
Jan Libourel in an editorial about the Winchester Short Magnums once wrote, "The gun industry is driven by novelty" and it shows. On the front page of every new edition of a gun rag on the newstand it shows. When was the last time you saw an article about handgun hunting in a magazine? When was the last time you saw an article about bullet construction that was not about selling the latest cutting edge technology? While Handloader still runs the "Propellant Profiles" column when was the last time you saw an article on how to choose a powder for a given cartridge/bullet weight combination? Once upon a time American Rifleman ran good articles, it turned political in the 1990's. At one time I thought Shooting Illustrated was going to pick up that torch. Not so much. Firearms News magazine is about the only thing left worth reading to me these days and there is very little there which would have attracted me to shooting, reloading, or casting 40 years ago.

MY grandmother was born in the 1890's and literally went from a world dominated by horse and train travel to men on the moon. I've often wondered what that experience must have been like, but the older I get the less I wonder. I have revolvers, 1911's even a plastic fantastic in my gun safe. I have AR's, lever actions, bolt actions and single shots. The revolvers get the most of my attention, the AR's get almost none.

I found https://www.rugerforum.net/ recently. I'm sure someone at Ruger is looking at this seeking to understand their customers. I wonder if RCBS is actually listening to their customers or if they are stuck in an echo chamber. If they are blaming the lack of sales of their casting equipment on the stagnation of the Cowboy Action, I suspect they are stuck in an echo chamber, because there are lots plenty of mold makers who are successful today and new casters coming on and RCBS's response seems to me to be one of let someone else have the market

[Winger Ed.]

Re-loaders have always been a small percentage of shooters & hunters.
As such, we've never been very well represented in the gun comic books.
Boolit casters are, and always have been a very small minority them.

Up until the early 70's, we could shoot off a river bank near home at the edge of the city limits.
As the river went down in the summer, I'd walk along the bank and pick up spent bullets that surfaced to make sinkers.
I picked up a few well tarnished, cast rifle boolits, and it took awhile to figure out what I'd found.
Back then, cast rile boolits were unheard of..... but folks were doing it. Like now, we fly under the radar.

Percentage wise, cast rifle boolits and recognizable pistol boolits were probably less than 1% of what I picked up.
I figure the percentage of cast boolits I found in the late 60's wasn't much different that what I'd find in our range berm today.

At our private range, the range master was a good buddy, and he asked one time what I was shooting that was so quiet.
He was a Viet Nam Army vet, big time bench rest guy, and you'd think he lived at the range.
I showed him a 190 SPGC sitting on top a .30-06 case.
He acted like he'd never seen one before.
He looked at it, rolled it around, handed it back and said, "Cool".

I used to reload 12 guage target stuff because I liked doing it.
The only savings was that I could reload a heavy 3" Magnum shell for more or less the same price as the super cheap target shells.
At the time, target 2 3/4" inch were pretty cheap. Name brand 3" Mag you could actually hunt with were higher than giraffe lips.
The cost difference of re-loading a box of one or the other was barely toll road change.

[mehavey]

Coupla' key words & phrases stuck in my memory here:

- Therapy
- Self reliance
- Not cost-effective (that said... try to buy a box of 410 lately... or 410 under $14-$15 ?)... but I digress....
- Board room... bean counter (without which a financial enterprise dies. But if run by.. it also dies)
- CCI/SPEER/FEDERAL all part of Vista Outdoors
- It's our grandchildren...
- https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/list-of-mold-makers/

... sigh...

-

[Tar Heel]

A lot of what JohnH posted resonated with me and got me thinking hard about what he said. Gun magazines hold little interest for me anymore due to the less than interesting content, noise about plastic wonder nines, and mediocre writing prose. I have of late, wondered if I have "reached the end of the internet."

I have, over the course of many decades now, determined that dedicated handloaders and bullet casters are a particular breed of men and women. We are determined to produce perfect loads, bullets, repairs, tooling, and anything else related to our hobby which dominates our spare time.

I handload for 35 individual calibers. I own 96 bullet molds. I shoot flintlocks. I shoot caplocks. I shoot revolvers. I shoot long guns. I varmint hunt. I handgun hunt. I shoot Contenders. I compete. I cast bullets. I load BPCR. I do not put lipstick on bullets :-) (yet). I copied a BASIC computer program out of the American Rifleman and ran that stupid program on an MS-DOS computer larger than a missile crate for years. I now use chronographs, ballistic programs, and other computing "essentials" to augment my handloads and tweak them to perfection. I make my own bullet lubricant and felt wads. I have immersed myself into my hobby as most of you have.

The gun writers of today hold no interest for me anymore because I have been there and done that several times now and my experiences have taught me that the information being passed on to newer members of the community is not quite right. Experience will set them straight as it has us. I just don't want to read another article about how the 6.5 BlastEm is the best cartridge ever made. I know factually that what I used in the jungles of SE Asia and other stink-holes around the world works just fine and I also know why it worked (and still works) just fine.

We have all seen wonder cartridges come and go. I chuckle now when I see yet another 7mm STW or Easterner, or Northerner, or Super Mag, or other ridiculous name being touted. This is not new material - it is simply a rehash of old material with a new name. Hunters will migrate to existing capable cartridges. Long range shooters will eventually migrate to existing extremely capable cartridges.

The character writers of the golden era are gone or almost all gone. Elmer held our interest because he wrote of real cowboys. Skeeter was a real character too. Massad Ayoob was a real lawman. They all had character and that personality came through in their writing. Today's articles are sterile, politically correct, precisely worded and styled targeted marketing. They have no seasoning - either flavorful or experienced.

Those of us who have tried it all or mostly all of it, have reached the end of the internet. Not much more is new to us so we are less interested to read another rehash of old material. The American Rifleman used to be a great read and was jam packed with information. Now? I don't want hearing aids, toy trains which are "gold plated", silver coins, or goop to slather on which will make women fall at my feet. Can you believe that advert?

How many times have you seen a post on here where the OP is a new caster or handloader (or both) asking about why this or that will or won't work and found yourself saying "go buy a loading manual and look it up"? That was how we learned our hobby. Reading about it from multiple sources and then trying what we had read. Folks do not read anymore. They want instant answers to their question. I don't have instant answers nor can their questions be addressed with an instant answer. Frankly I am struggling with the time it takes to point this out to them so I rarely address their question unless failure to do so would cause them harm if they are on a dangerous track.

So...I ramble. Me thinketh my point is that a lot of us on here have actual experience in almost all of the topics. There is not much that is new to us. Perhaps we have become the wise elders. The sad part may be that our experiences may die with us. I just don't see the youth having the interest we had and was fueled by great writers, great companies making product, great shooting clubs, and of course less fear about gun owners in general. Times are changing I fear.

[Fernando]

My 2cent
This what happens when people listen to the NRA and writers who shoot instead of Shooters who write.
The new trend is to play on peoples fears - not just in the shooting world but in all aspects.
Sensationalisim ?? shooter not speller - In every facet now from weather to the most trivial occurance.
It's all big buck grab - corporations are the real enemy

[Daekar]

I can't speak to the prevalence of shotgun reloading, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it's not that common. I know lots of people that shoot, a surprising number that reload, but I don't know a single person who routinely shoots a shotgun to such volume that they bother reloading.

I will echo some of the thoughts about existing gun media - there is a whole lot of low-effort or simply inaccurate chaff to sort through. So many "reviews" lack any evidence of critical thinking and read more like a copy/paste of the manufacturer's press release. In fact, many are precisely that. There are folks out there who still produce good information, but you have to find them the hard way. While the internet era has amplified the amount of bad content, it also enables good content to be distributed and for communities like this one, which are far more important, to exist. Passionate communities of enthusiasts will always be far preferable to most other things, especially if that community benefits from stability and a good moderating team.

I am the only one I know personally who casts bullets. That's not surprising, really, since the current direction the industry is leaning is military-style rifles which are effective far beyond the range that most people can actually hit the broad side of a barn. I went though that phase when I was younger and didn't really understand what I would enjoy most in shooting, so I can't really criticize too harshly.

[JohnH]

I shoot Contenders. Times are changing I fear.

About twice a year I take my Contender to the range with either a 357 or 44 barrel on it. (The old octagonal 10" for those who need to know) Without fail someone 40 or under will invariably ask, "What is that?" The surprising part to me is that when offered the chance to take it and let a few fly they decline :( But they never turn down a chance to shoot my Rossi 92's :) I let one fella shoot my Ruger GP 100, two week later he showed up with the new S&W 19. Let him shoot my Blackhawk and after a cylinder he hands it back and says, "I can't afford to shoot with you anymore" Someday's the best I can do is attempt to be an ambassador.

[Tar Heel]

Without fail someone 40 or under will invariably ask, "What is that?" The surprising part to me is that when offered the chance to take it and let a few fly they decline

Same here. Now the range oversight has changed hands and they always want me to shoot the Contender on the handgun 25 yard line. I try to explain that the Contender, in whatever caliber I have that day, is a 100+ yard cartridge falls on deaf (inexperienced) ears and I am relegated to the stupid 25 yards handgun line. When I pull out a 375-JDJ cartridge and rupture the ears of the folks to my left and right, I am then asked to go to the far end of the rifle line. :-)
It is amazing that the <40 shooters have never seen a SAA, a flintlock pistol or rifle, a 1872 Open Top or an 1851 or 1860 conversion, or a Contender, or a "God Forbid" Remington XP100. I had a guy wanting to call the ATF when he saw the XP100. He lectured me on legal rifle barrel lengths until I packed up and left.

I reserve the Casull for seasoned shooters who actually know what one is and how hard they can recoil. I have the most fun with the Colt 1873 SAA and black powder cartridges. The recoil is brisk in the 45 Colt and the muzzle flash is quite a show. The younger guys won't believe that was the norm back then, albeit with a little lighter load.

I had one guy who wished to shoot the 1886. When I pulled out the 45-90 cartridge, he paled and declined the invitation. Jeez, it kicks less than a 35 Remington! OK. Perhaps a little more but you get my point.

If it isn't black plastic, they don't have a clue. Nor are they interested in any of the history. What a shame.

[charlie b]

I like it when someone asks what I am shooting. They are astounded when my cast bullets are hitting smaller targets than their new 6.5CM (that they really don't know how to shoot).

Magazines in general are obsolete and need to be buried. The writers are terrible and subject matter is worse.

I remember when.... :) But, thinking back on it, a lot of it back then wasn't that good either. The difference was it was our only source of information. If we were interested in the latest Ruger, S&W, etc then we had to find a mag article. Accuracy capability of the weapons. We were dependent on the writer's shooting capability. Some were good. Some were not. And they were given guns to shoot by the mfgs, who also paid for advertising in the mag. Now guess how many had bad reviews :)

Now we can go to any number of sources to find people who bought the latest and greatest. And it wasn't given to them in return for a glowing mag article. They find faults and report them. Sometimes many faults. Some have grown into very reliable sources of information that are far, far better than any magazine writer.

I have not read a magazine article in many years. Last year I can say for sure I have read none.

[country gent]

A magazine article is the writers opinion more so usually. His views on the issue or subject ( look at the arguments between Elmer Kieth and Jack O Connor back in the day Those sold a lot of magazines)

The new shooters have been regularly influenced by the gun store Rambos on what they need to do ammo and general info. most havent developed the knowledge to discern between folklore and fact yet. But when they see people shooting handloads with cast bullets or even jacketed and the groups most are getting they open their minds. I cant speak for the shotgunners as I dont do much there. But I see a lot of shot bags on the freebie table in the club house still, mostly marked 8 or 9 shot.

The other is with the past "gluts" in components it just isnt really the time to start casting reloading, if you cant get the other components reliably why start he others. Here most of the new shooters are saving their brass from factory loads so when components become available they will have it.

The new writers articles are not near an complete or thorough as the older writers were. Now if you get 100 yd testing your doing good. A lot of the articles are mostly reprints of the companies literature.

[tmanbuckhunter]

I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in a guy from RCBS's stance.

They make a GREAT mold, but only in iron, and only in 1 or 2 cavity.

They make my preferred casting pot, but others may balk at its price.

Lube-sizer parts may not be their bread and butter.

If they want to downsize to specialize in making dies for the 5.56 and 9mm jacketed crowd, that's there prerogative - I suspect other mold companies are eating their lunch right now anyway.

I have observed that there are many shooters who do not want to cross into reloading, and many reloaders hesitant to cross into casting. That said, however, the current shortage appears to be affecting mold availability as well.

Attendance at the club my father and I belong to seems to have tapered off recently, presumably due to ammo shortages. Those that want to shoot will take the plunge. Those that don't, won't.

This right here. I see more people casting bullets now, especially with all this new fangled powder coating, than I've ever seen. They're just not buying an RCBS Mold cut in a keith style wadcutter.

[JoeJames]

The cost and availability of factory ammo has driven more than a few into the reloading ranks. I personally have helped at least two folks get into it; albeit this is about the worst time for components. But they have scrounged around and gotten started. I will admit that the number of casters in my area is quite a bit smaller than the number of reloaders. I got back into casting just a few years ago myself, when I saw the handwriting on the wall regarding components. At first it was because mine were substantially cheaper than factory, and then it dawned on me that my cast revolver bullets were every bit as accurate as the harder cast factory bullets. Being in a rural area of Arkansas my cost for wheel weights is $0. Just a matter of sorting them out.

[Char-Gar]

I tend to agree with much of what has been posted. Even in my salad days shooting sports played second fiddle to the hunters. Hunters bought their ammo and the shooting sport folks were the reloaders. The shooting sport folks were the ones looking for precision and economy as they shot far more than hunters. I might mention that back in the 50's money was far harder to come by.

So reloaders or handloaders have always been a niche market and bullet casters were a smaller niche within that bigger niche. So the substance of the article in question really has not changed that much over the past 65 years or so, as far as I can tell.

The biggest change I have seen is the rise of the mall ninjas and other tacticool types. The folks go to a range and fire more ammo in an afternoon that us old timers fired in a year. There has been a sea change in firearms thinking that goes along with this current shooting trend. These folks want high volume reloaders, if they reload at all. They also want projectiles and powder that does not leave much residue in the firearms to require cleaning very often. Going to a public range these days is like entering a war zone with the volume of fire.

I really don't see anything in the article that will have any impact on my shooting world, but I am a fossil from a by gone era.

[fgd135]

Even 30 years ago the members of the trap and skeet club next door the rifle range where I was a member voiced their opinions that it was as cheaper to buy a case of shells at Wally World than to reload for shotguns. Don't know that myself, since I only reload for rifle calibers, all of which require reloading for better accuracy and also for cost, as over the counter centerfire rifle ammo has always been expensive to me. Some older, obsolete calibers that I shoot require casting bullets, even forming cases, actually, while with other relatively modern calibers I do reload j words for cost and performance reasons--low cost jwords can still be found from time to time, and frankly some rifles require em.
RCBS is a big player in the industry, so what their rep said in that AR magazine article was probably exactly as RCBS saw market trends at the time of the interview, which could've been several months before publication, fwiw. Would be interesting to hear comments based on trends since summer last year...to me it appears reloading for rifle and pistol is going "full guns" right now.

[JohnH]

One more observation on the subject; I think it was best summed up by Quigley at the end of the great gun fight scene where the bad guy Marson says, "But I didn't think you knew how to use one". Quigely replied, "I said I didn't have much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it" And herein is the rub.

In the early 1990's the plastic fantastic was a rising star. The military style semiautomatic rifle was under intense attack by the anti gun forces and Congress had just passed the assault weapon ban in response, and everything was stuck with a ten round magazine. The gun industries response was to jack up the advertising to at once counter the antigun message and to increase familiarity with the arms among shooters particularly those who owned traditional firearms types but yet would go on about, "Who needs one of those". There was a lot of resistance within the shooting community to the "newcomers" so to speak; and in some ways the industry did too good a job. Follow or add to all this the 2008 Heller ruling which validated the 2A and the keeping and using of firearms for self defense and suddenly there was a rung on which the gun industry could hang it's hat on the legitimacy of it's products in society. Magazine fed firearms were touted for their compactness, ease of carry and ease of use.

The AR got a complete facelift and became the Chevy small block of the gun world. By the early 2000's you could buy whatever custom hardware and furniture for your rifle and upgrade it in the comfort of your living room, if not just build yourself one from scratch. New chamberings began to come on line to satisfy those who thought the 223/5.56 was anemic and state laws which forbade their use as hunting rounds. For the last nearly 30 years everything in the gun industry has been about self defense oriented firearms and military style semiautomatic rifles.

I've said all that to say this, they've only got themselves to blame. Once upon a time, "disciplined" meant well studied, experienced, capable. This is what Quigley was speaking to and what the headlong rush to advance the "next level of arms" (for lack of better words) by the gun industry has brought us to. As a young man I was eager to learn how to properly use every type of gun I could get my hands on. Most people can't run a bolt action or a lever action rifle without taking it off their shoulder to cycle it, but that is not the proper way. A double action revolver should be mastered using only the trigger and not firing it single action. The same is true in reloading. One should at the least learn casting if only to augment skills and ammunition supply, just as we hardline casters should keep some jacketed ball (if not ammo) on hand because there are some things for which cast is not suited (I know that's sacrilege, but). It should be a goal of every rifle shooter to to be able to score at least well enough at 500 yards to earn "Rifleman". It should be the goal of every handgunner to be able to reliably hit a paper plate at 50 yards. And it should be the goal of every shooter to be able to properly run whatever action type is handed them. I know that's a lofty goal and we are very likely to never see it (I've never seen it in my life time) but the industry owes it to it's own survival to encourage well rounded and well disciplined shooters, and in my opinion they have failed at this. They are following the same path the Big Five followed, acting as though they have a captive market and whatever they produce will sell and it's all the customer needs or wants. And in the firearms market that is a particularly short sighted business model.

Oliver Winchester and Sam Colt must have been rolling over in their graves when Cowboy Action Shooting took off and there stood Winchester and Colt at the sideline watching Uberti, Cimmaron and Pedersoli own that market when it was Winchester and Colt who had created it 100 years earlier. Only after Winchester closed up shop and leased it's manufacturing out to a foreign company did someone make the decision to bring back the '73. I'll not be surprised when they discontinue the model claiming the market for it stagnated.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I started reloading in 1964/65? No mentor, just read all i could, magazine articles, books, manuals. I was born with the 'GUN' gene and no one I knew had it. Loading was part of shooting, not only to shoot more but the immersion in art and science. Now part of handloading is being able to improve on available ammunition for the rifles I like. The 358 Win, 45-70, 300 Savage, 32 Special, 303 Savage others are not treated kindly in selection OR QUALITY by the big names. Accuracy for lever actions can usually be improved quite a bit with careful loading. I do some loading for handguns, but when prices are down I stock up on the bulk FMJ ammo. 223 is a toss-up, I am not a gamer but I do buy bulk when on sale. I acn buy 223 and 308 FMJ about as cheap as I can cast. I buy a lot of commercial cast bullets, like others, the cost and time needed to cast good bullets no longer works FOR ME. I have a bunch of molds along with a bunch of other stuff. Shooting is more enjoyable than reloading, reloading is more enjoyable than casting. Everyone has a different take on this. I do not wander garage sales and pawn shops as driving distances are long and everybody in this country shoots so pickings are slim. Punch a few keys and the brown truck shows up. I do try to stay stocked, but as fewer people have an easy way to go shooting, more will stare at the tube, 'learning to shoot' on a computer game. As said before, it is annoying to read questions that are all answered by reading a loading manual or book on the subject. Instant answers are expected since the Internet and Cell phone became part of our life. I guess we should accept that new people are shooting, reloading, and casting and welcome everyone, providing answers that we learned 'THE HARD WAY'.

[AZ Pete]

perhaps Hemeyer is biased by the current volume of sales for RCBS, not knowing what current members of the handloading community are actually doing.

Component sales might be a better gage of activity for some facets of our hobby, but tooling sales (tools that do not wear out very fast) not so much.

So far as casting is concerned, I doubt that anyone has a good handle on the volume of salvaged lead that is being cast and sent down range each year, or what calibre.

[rbuck351]

I got into reloading at 14 when my dad took me to a LGS and bought me a Lee loader in 12 ga, a 5#bag of shot, a flat of primers, a couple boxes of card wads and a Speer loader manual. He didn't know how to reload and neither did I. After I ran out of components, I could then load a box of shells for about $1 using reclaimed shot and wads I recovered from a trap club and washed. Factory shells were $3 to $4 per box. When I turned 21 I got into 50' NRA indoor pistol and was shooting a Colt Officers Model 38 Special. Ammo for that was about $4 to $5 per box so a RCBS reloader special kit in 38 special and a Lyman 2c wadcutter mold and a few other basic tools and I could shoot for about $1 per box.
I no longer shoot much shotgun ammo other than 410 using 444Marlin cases and a few home made tools although I have loaders in 12ga 16 ga and 20 ga.
Now about 60 years after starting, I can load my smaller case pistol rounds for about 5 to 6 cents per round and larger cases (41, 44, and 454Cassul) for 12 to 15cents per round. That is a significant savings over the current prices of handgun ammo. Then there is the ammo I shoot that not available anywhere like 22H, 22KH, 25/20, 32/20, 32 S&W L, 41mag, 7.62x25, 30 rem, 35 rem, 350 rem Mag, 7.7 Jap, 358 Norma, 256 Win, 7x57, 416Rem, 45/70 and such. Right now if you don't reload and cast, there are a lot of calibers you are not going to shoot. Even the cheap 9mm ammo is running $.40 + per round.
So yes, even though we as loaders and casters are a very minor part of the RCBS customer base, there are plenty of good options available for loading/casting tools other than RCBS. I doubt they will notice the loss of me as a customer.

[Tar Heel]

Ammunition conglomerates can keep the Rambo's shooting all week once the hoarding dies down. Where do we see the hobby of handloading and casting heading? Has our hobby had its day?

[jonp]

If someone can buy factory ammo for what I can cast and load I'd like his or her source.

[Tar Heel]

If someone can buy factory ammo for what I can cast and load I'd like his or her source.

MidwayUSA, Cheaper Than Dirt, Grafs, Cabela's to name a few.
In years past when everything was normal.

If you can load 9mm jacketed by the box of 50 for $9.95 then great. Realistically speaking you also need to account for your time and energy costs.

I bought many a box of 9mm from Cabela's for $9.95. Then there was 7.62x54R at $17.95 per 20. I couldn't buy the brass alone cheaper than that so I bought the box of cartridges to get the brass!

The point is when supply chains are running and the shelves are stocked, prices drop. They drop to the point that common ammunition is cheaper to purchase than it is to make.

[brewer12345]

Ammunition conglomerates can keep the Rambo's shooting all week once the hoarding dies down. Where do we see the hobby of handloading and casting heading? Has our hobby had its day?

As others have said, handloading has always been a niche and casting an even smaller niche. That is fine, and I don't see it changing. Will it die out? Doubtful absent the gubmint outlawing the sale of primers and powder.

[Grayone]

I have reloaded since the early 70's and at first it was for economy. I have expanded over the years due to the purchase or inheritance of odd chambered firearms. Within the last few years I stated loading 12 ,16, and 20 gauge specialty loads of slugs and buckshot that is unobtainable currently or not at all. I bought components after the anointed ones reign from 2008 to 2016. I have helped get started at least three young men with reloading to follow me when I leave for better pastures and woodlands one day. I hate to see the major corporations ruin all they touch from the 'old days'. It is not just our sport that is changing it is our way of life. Too many bean counters from 'business schools' are more interested in the bottom line than in quality of life.

[openbook]

How many states are still forcing the shotgun-only thing, though? I know Ohio gave it up. Is Illinois the only one left? And buckshoot can be cast up. Savings can be had there too. The only shotshells I've ever reloaded have been slugs and buck.


Maryland had a shotgun-only region covering several counties until the 2021 season when they introduced the "straight-wall cartridge rule," resulting in a market explosion for new production guns in 350 Legend.


This has been a fascinating thread. What I will say as a very junior contributor is that while we may be in a "waning phase" of the home reloading industry, I am optimistic about the future--even though the inflection point may be decades off.

This is the first two paragraphs of an article by Ed Matunas in my Lyman's 50th Edition Reloading Handbook:

After the Second World War the interest in shooting started to gain serious momentum; and in turn reloading became a thriving industry. By 1955, handloaders were producing 53 million rounds of centerfire metallic cartridges annually. This was equal to 37% of all the factory ammo - some 145 million rounds - produced by Winchester, Federal and Remington combined. At the end of 1964 the total yearly output for the 3 major ammo makers was 196 million centerfire metallic cartridges, an increase of some 35%. For the same year, total centerfire metallic reloads increased to 195 million rounds.

In nine years metallic ammunition reloaded at home, by shooters across the country, grew by 366%. Reloads now nearly equaled (99%) the combined production of the big ammunition factories. The demand for all things reloading was increasing exponentially...

I believe that we'll likely see these days again. As proved by the Ed Matunas article, surging interest in shooting can drive shocking growth in the reloading community in a very short amount of time. We could be seeing the shooting-interest surge that prefigures the reloading surge right now. On the other hand, if we aren't seeing the beginning of a reloading resurgence now, the time will come. And when the time comes, there will still be hundreds of thousands of presses, manuals, and brass collections circulating in American workshops and basements. Something like this just doesn't "go away."

My first rifle was a Colt LE AR-15. I wanted the closest thing to the M16 and M4 I learned in the military, and believed (still do) that it was my duty as a citizen to own a military-equivalent rifle. These days, I shoot my other rifles a lot more, but I will never sell the Colt. Don't knock the black guns! Every American man should own one!

Sure there are lots of guys at the range ripping mags and with no idea what they're doing. But every time they see someone out there placing careful shots, a seed is being planted. One day when they're tired of burning $, they're going to want to learn to shoot like that. And in the meantime the brass population is skyrocketing :D.

Guys I meet are very friendly to reloaders. If I'm picking up brass at the range people will walk over a few lanes and ask "are you a brass guy?"--and offer me their brass. More and more people I talk to are saving brass even though they don't have the equipment yet. They just know that ammo prices are up and they're staying up. One day soon their brass piles are going to reach critical mass and suck them in to buying a press and powder scale, or just a Lee Loader. Then it's off to the races. I talked to two guys recently who have been wanting to get into reloading but just needed a little "push."

[imashooter2]

Yes, I believe it all. Just look at this board and you can see that casting is the domain of aging eccentrics, most of whom built their lead stashes years ago. Once lead wheel weights disappeared as “trash” every gas station wanted to be rid of, the writing was on the wall.

[JohnH]

Realistically speaking you also need to account for your time and energy costs.


I've never bought this line of thinking simply because it requires that I'm spending my time casting and reloading rather than doing something I could be getting paid for and it's not true. For most of us, reloading and casting is what we do with our time when we are not working. It is therefore not reasonable to consider the cost of our time as we're paying ourselves through our work rather than someone else paying us for our work.

[Winger Ed.]

When I first got into re loading, ammo of the day would hold a 2" group at best with a off the shelf factory rifle.
I wanted better.
Just my first basic attempts & hacking around with re loading got me closer to 1" with the same rifle.

40-odd years later, even though hand loaders have greatly raised the bar for factory ammo accuracy, I still do it.
I do it now as a hobby, and don't look for it to save me money, or be cost effective any more than I would try to justify
how building and flying RC model airplanes would.

Same thing with hunting and fishing. I do it because I want to.
By the time I figure in the price of a hunting trip, or buying a boat to fish out of---
Whatever I bring home is about the most expensive meat there is.

[dverna]

A lot of hand wringing that makes little sense.

People who enjoy reloading and casting will keep doing it.

People who reload and cast to save money will keep doing it.

People with oddball calibers that have to reload and cast do not matter. They are not a big enough market. They will buy custom reloading and casting stuff or change over to something more common.

If reloading was dead, primers would not be over $100/k.

I hope RCBS drops their loser and slow moving offerings and focuses on stuff that sells. I have been trying to get a .223 X die for a year.

[Walks]

I no longer have any friends left who cast. I have only a few friends left who reload either. And those are only for 1 or 2 calibers for Cowboy Shooting. My local indoor range closed last year, after 39yrs. And I've been looked at as a sort of freak because I loaded My own ammo. I'm sure none of them ever got close enough to even notice I was shooting cast bullets. I gave up trying to interest anyone there in reloading about 10yrs ago. The range stopped selling reloads at least 10yrs ago. Can't remember why.
I cast and reload My own ammo, because I don't know any different. I was raised in a Shooting/Reloading/Casting Family. My Dad said I was hanging off a press handle when I was about 3yrs old. I was priming 9mm cases with a Tong Tool by 5yrs old.

RCBS is a corporation. They look at the bottom line only. Just look what has happened to Lyman in the last 10yrs. Almost everything comes out of china, and there is NO technical service at all.

And I agree most magazines and writers are nothing but shills for the gun/ammo companies.

[Land Owner]

I have helped get started at least three young men with reloading to follow me...

^^^ Same here. ^^^

THAT is the least I can do. I also own rural property adjacent to a VAST "wildlife pump" of State-owned real estate. I have taken innumerable Dads and sons, Grandads and grandsons, family, friends, my sons and their friends to hunt and shoot there. We have eaten pretty well off of that land. We have sent cast and jacketed bullets down range to our heart's content. Land ownership was the first step and foremost encouragement in creating an arsenal. Everything else was a watershed from there.

The SC-DNR tried a "Take One - Make One" campaign for recruiting new hunters, a dying breed according to the circa 2010 State's Wildlife Management officials, who's in-state programs, and distributed Federal funding, rely on the sale of hunting licenses. Then, the DNR changed the deer management rules in 2017, creating a protected "slot" for small antlered deer and sincerely reducing the number of doe deer allowed (wise choices), BUT doubling the cost of licenses and fees for non-residents, eliminating (imo) up to 30% of licensees. The legislature effectively said, "Our land. Our deer. Go home!"
Go figure...

There is no license required to reload ammunition or cast lead - only the study of why and the execution of how - safely. These are hobbies of choice and finance. I think it appropriate to recruit, distribute FACTS, encourage, manage expectations, Mentor, and at all times HAVE FUN.

[Tar Heel]

I've never bought this line of thinking simply because it requires that I'm spending my time casting and reloading rather than doing something I could be getting paid for and it's not true. For most of us, reloading and casting is what we do with our time when we are not working. It is therefore not reasonable to consider the cost of our time as we're paying ourselves through our work rather than someone else paying us for our work.

I agree with your point that those of us who do this for fun, as a hobby, could care less the cost. I propose that those who do it simply for the economics of it, not as a hobby, are deluding themselves. When I saw the price of a box of 45 Colt cartridges a few weeks ago, I realized that at this time, the only way I could afford to shoot 45 Colt was to handload it. In good years, perhaps I could load it myself at the same price as commercial ammo - factoring in time and energy costs, but I didn't because, as you said, I would be doing that anyway.

Your point is received.

[Tar Heel]

[QUOTE=imashooter2;5336999]Just look at this board and you can see that casting is the domain of aging eccentrics, most of whom built their lead stashes years ago. /QUOTE]

Hey now! I am not an aging eccentric! I am an aging DEPLORABLE! Big difference mate.

[dverna]

Its not about the bean counters my friends it is about reality.

Read the OP

RCBS is getting out of casting stuff. When is the last time you recommended a mold design that is only made by RCBS? No big deal when they exit this market

RCBS is getting out of shotgun reloading. I only knew one competitive trap shooter who used the RCBS Grand and it was given to him as he was sponsored by them. MEC owns the hobby market. Spolar and Ponsness-Warren own the high end market. RCBS is nothing.

Progressive Reloaders...who has ever recommended one on this forum? None of the large volume shooters I have known have ever used RCBS progressives. I owned one (Green Machine)...the worst *** ever inflicted on the reloading community.

NOTHING surprises me about the OP. It was about time they focused on their core business and that is NOT casting, shotgun reloaders or metallic progressives.

Stop bashing the "bean counters". The "bean counters" who allowed RCBS to get into shotgun and progressive metallic reloaders hopefully were terminated decades ago....along with the engineers on that Green Machine.

[reddog81]

When it comes to casting everything RCBS is over-priced. I got into casting about 8 years ago and have picked up a few used RCBS items. For any of their new stuff there are significantly cheaper or better options out there. They have been riding the coat tails of prior success for a long time.

[farmbif]

I wish they would go back to what the company is named for, rock crusher bullet swage, rock solid press and bullet swage dies at bout the same price of regular reloading dies.

[Daekar]

I wish they would go back to what the company is named for, rock crusher bullet swage, rock solid press and bullet swage dies at bout the same price of regular reloading dies.

I had no idea that's what the name stood for! Boy, if they offered that kind of thing at a reasonable price I would be swaging every boolit I make... too bad.

[mehavey]

Uuuuuhhh...

Would you believe:
< Rock Chuck Bullet Swage (https://www.rcbs.com/rcbs-learn/rcbs-about-us.html) > ?
(`Started w/ a die to swage .22 rimfire cartridge cases to form jacketed varmint bullets )

:bigsmyl2:

[1hole]

...Gun magazines hold little interest for me anymore due to the less than interesting content, noise about plastic wonder nines, and mediocre writing prose. I have of late, wondered if I have "reached the end of the internet."

When I got bit - hard - by the gun bug the rage of wildcats was passing and the hobby of home gunsmithing was rising. Seems every monthly gun magazine (and there were many) had at least one "how to ..." article that made buying one or two of them somewhat important.


The gun writers of today hold no interest for me anymore ..... We have all seen wonder cartridges come and go. I chuckle now when I see yet another 7mm STW or Easterner, or Northerner, or Super Mag, or other ridiculous name being touted. This is not new material - it is simply a rehash of old material with a new name. Hunters will migrate to existing capable cartridges. Long range shooters will eventually migrate to existing extremely capable cartridges.

Sadly, I fear that the change has been driven by the changed buying audience. First, most of the old magazines are gone and, second, those remaining (and the newer ones) have to satisfy today's gimmick oriented buyers.


The character writers of the golden era are gone or almost all gone. Elmer held our interest because he wrote of real cowboys. Skeeter was a real character too. Massad Ayoob was a real lawman.
<PLEASE include at least Bill Jordan, P.O. Ackley, Nolty and Francis Sell>

They all had character and that personality came through in their writing. Today's articles are sterile, politically correct, precisely worded and styled targeted marketing. They have no seasoning - either flavorful or experienced.


The American Rifleman used to be a great read and was jam packed with information. Now? I don't want hearing aids, toy trains which are "gold plated", silver coins, or goop to slather on which will make women fall at my feet. Can you believe that advert?

I opened an old stored box a few weeks back and in the bottom was a small stack of Rifleman, Gun's & Ammo and Gun World magazines from the late 60s to late 70s; I've had a great time reading them again. Today's buyers wouldn't give them a glance; neither the old articles nor the adds had anything of interest to today's plastic gun "wannabees".


The sad part may be that our experiences may die with us. I just don't see the youth having the interest we had and was fueled by great writers, great companies making product, great shooting clubs, and of course less fear about gun owners in general. Times are changing I fear.

Yes.

I think we can safely believe that the downward drift of gun magazines is only a reflection of our society at large. Thing is, it's not our kids fault that they have been wossified and stupified by our supposed modern "liberal" educators. WE, the we who are old enough to know better, have allowed it to happen to them.


My whine for today:

I pray for God to protect our military and especially our women in uniform. By succeeding in physically watered-down training, some very brave young women have falsely been led to assume they are combat ready. I suspect the best of our precious young women in arms will last - maybe - 48 hours in sustained combat and then be emotionally broken for life by PTSD.

The political leadership's (?) current watered down, wossiefied training standards and very low recoil small arms will put everyone at risk in blazing battles. But I suppose the surely coming hordes of mixed sex (and ambivalent sex) body bags will have the gleeful public approval of our most strident women's libbers and air headed university educators when real SHTF. ???

Anyway, it isn't just watered down guns and gun magazines that show us where America is today and what I see really doesn't look very good.

[1hole]

Note: RCBS means Rock CHUCKER (aka, a groundhog), not rock crusher.

The first of the Rock Chuckers followed the more heavily built, and too expensive for simple reloading, bullet presses. A Rock Chucker is NOT a bullet press.

After WW 2 reloading components soon returned to the retail market. The best bullets made with fired .22RF cases were NOT equal to what Fred Huntington (RCBS) and Vernon Speer were selling for not much so home swaging took a rapid death dive and has pretty much stayed dead.

Of course home bullet swaging presses and dies ARE still very much available if anyone ready to pay for them. I think the new stuff works better than the old and, adjusted for inflation, it ends up effectively only costing the average worker about the same percentage of a month's pay that it always did.

Do a web search for corbin bullets AND Walnut Hill bullets. They have everything you will need to make most of your own cheep bullets. :)

[1hole]

One YouTube poster, the "Yankee Marshall " posted some time back that lead was poison and should be taken out of bullets since we have non lead alloys and polymer projectiles now. This guy posts about self defense and such.

"This Yankee guy" is wrong; solid lead IS NOT a poison. We have long had a lot of people, usually military vets, happily living with bits and pieces of lead scattered throughout their bodies with no "poison" harm.

[Thumbcocker]

"This Yankee guy" is wrong; solid lead IS NOT a poison. We have long had a lot of people, usually military vets, happily living with bits and pieces of lead scattered throughout their bodies with no "poison" harm.Never said he was right or that I agreed with him. Was quoting to make a point about the possibility of casters and loaders being potentially thrown under the bus by the current generation.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[curioushooter]

"Yankee Marshall"

This individual is breathtakingly ignorant and basically a living joke. It was a waste of timing viewing enough of his "content" to learn this, but alas, that was years ago, before you had reviews of reviewers.

[jonp]

MidwayUSA, Cheaper Than Dirt, Grafs, Cabela's to name a few.
In years past when everything was normal.

If you can load 9mm jacketed by the box of 50 for $9.95 then great. Realistically speaking you also need to account for your time and energy costs.

I bought many a box of 9mm from Cabela's for $9.95. Then there was 7.62x54R at $17.95 per 20. I couldn't buy the brass alone cheaper than that so I bought the box of cartridges to get the brass!

The point is when supply chains are running and the shelves are stocked, prices drop. They drop to the point that common ammunition is cheaper to purchase than it is to make.

Can you buy it now for that price? Doubtful

[curioushooter]

This is a great summary: "Guys I work with who are mid twenties to early thirties have never seen The Wild Bunch, For A Fist Full OF Dollars and wouldn't know what western character Richard Boone played on TV nor that Rowdy is where Clint Eastwood got his start. Heaven forbid I bring up High Noon. Cowboy action shooting twilighting? Imagine that. These guys like my Blackhawk and think it's amazing I can smoke 6" plates at 25 yards with it. Meanwhile, they love their latest version of whatever plastic fantastic wondernine they can't hit a pie plate with at 10 yards consistently but I don't think it matters to them, they like hearing it go BANG!"

I am not as old as many of you gentlemen, with only slight graying on my temples presently, but I started posting here when I was in my mid-20s. And STILL have never owned a plastic firearm, nor ever will.

I went to the range in 2019 (yes, last time I went to a pistol range due to COVID) with my dandy 44 Special Blackhawk and my S&W 624 (also 44 special), a few green boxes full of H&G403s over either 7.5 grains of Unique or 12 grains of Blue dot, or 16.5 grains of 2400.

The range has a 10 yard, 15 yard, 25 yard line for pistols, and a 50 yard line right next to it for rifles, but you can shoot pistols on any range. The were a crowd of mostly 20s - 30s guys and like one girl (with some plastic 22LR pistol) sitting there shooting large paper targets (like 2'x2'). Looked like shotgun patterns. Just a lot of bang bang bang, jam, awkward yanking on slides, RO reprmainds. Just annoying. Had the usual tupperware from the looks of it, in 9mm and 22LR judging by the cases all over the place.

Finally get around to testing my unique loads. Got sights dialed in. Working great on paper. This is mostly what I came with only loaded a dozen Keith loads for fun at the end. By this point after seeing me bring back a few targets they knew whatever I was doing was working pretty well. The RO was talking to me some about my "hardware." Shocking that ROs don't know that 44 Special is still a thing. Seemed to think the only "forty-fouuur" is a magnum.

Decide to move over the 50 yard line to have fun with those Keiths. They have a some 8" plates on chains.

First Skeeter load at 50 nails the plate. This came out of my 624, which has a 6.5" barrel. One of the guys on the end drifts over and starts asking me stuff. "That a 44 mag?" Me: "no, it's a 44 special" Get out the Keith loads. Totally not expecting it to work since I had the sights dialed on on the Skeeter loads for both the Blackhawk (which annoyingly lets its rear sight lever pin drift out) and the Smith. Load six Keith loads into the 624. Wanted to let the guy hear a real bang since it seemed to be the most important thing to him.

First shot off and it nails the steel with a loud clang followed by the sound of the chain makes when the chains go from being slacked to fully extended, a sound that isn't heard when a regular handgun round hits it.

Guy just looked astounded. Like this was impossible. I told him he should check out silhouette shooting, where people use handguns at 200! He looked at me like I was making it all up.

"You made those bullets out of lead!?"

[1hole]

Never said he was right or that I agreed with him.

And I said HE is wrong because HE is wrong; was I out of line to mention that???

[curioushooter]

They are astounded when my cast bullets are hitting smaller targets than their new 6.5CM (that they really don't know how to shoot).

I will say this about the 6.5 CM, which I dismissed for a decade as a fad, but finally got, not because I thought it was a good cartridge, I would have bought a .30-'06 if I could have, but because it happened to be the only cambering for Left-Handed Ruger Hawkeyes available at the time, and it was good deal I thought.

I don't know if it's a fluke, but my 6.5 Ruger Hawkeye is freakishly accurate. I didn't think anything would beat my CZ527, but alas. When holes touch at 200 yards you shut up and take notice. And this with a straight forward book load--129 Grain Hornady Interlock and 42 grains of Reloader 16 Lee factory crimped in the groove--the second load I even tried. No words. Made me feel kind of dumb. I just Lee collet neck sized once fired Starline cases, didn't weigh out each bullet (I did weigh out each charge carefully to a tenth of grain), didn't do any neck or primer pocket adjustiment, didn't trim, just used regular CCI Large Rifle Primers. Nothing, except perhaps the Lee collet die, was "match grade" either. The 6.5 129 grain Interlock is the cheapest middleweight 6.5 in Hornady's line and a hunting bullet with a exposed lead nose...I got a box for free for buying a die 44 Mag/Special die set. Starline cases are the cheapest cases. Reloder 16 was kind of a fluke...I got it because they were out of H4350 and I only have a tiny bit of a bottle left.

I've loaded .30-'06 for years in various rifles, taking all those extra steps, used Sierra 168 Palma match, and other high grade match bullets from Hornady, never anything like that. I even loaded 6.5x55 in an old M96, which was very accurate, but not like the Hawkeye, and this was with primo Lapua brass and bullets. I'm sure having good glass is part of it, but I've had good glass on a lot of things. This thing is just spectacular. I would say to someone who is interested in hunting---coyotes through deer up to elk--that if legal in your state, look no further than a Ruger Hawkeye in 6.5 and put some good glass on it. Use any good factory ammo you want, or a basic lee set with a collet neck sizing die, and you won't be disappointed. Use the light bullets for the coyotes or even varmint hunting, and use the middle weights for deer, and use those fancy 142 grain ELD-X bullets for Elk.

[curioushooter]

It was about time they focused on their core business and that is NOT casting, shotgun reloaders or metallic progressives.

Excuse me, but what would that be? RCBS stands for Rock Chuck Bullet Swage. They started out making swaging equipment (supposedly out of Model-T axles) for the home user using 22LR rifle cases to make bullet jackets if I am correct.

Their business IS manufacturing reloading equipment, and like Redding/SAECO, they are not competitive on price or quality. RCBS's problem is not the market--Lee and all the boutique mold makers prove this--it is that their stuff is overpriced and not that great. I like my Lube-A-Matic II and the couple of molds and dies they made. I think I got them all used. Most of my dies are Lees. Most of the molds I really use are made by boutique manufacturers: Arsenal, NOE, M&P, Accurate. I do have some good old Lyman molds, but mostly I have clones now, which are invariably better than originals. And Lee makes some fine molds, which are priced well. For round balls especially, Lee can't be beat.

[JohnH]

Its not about the bean counters my friends it is about reality.

Read the OP

RCBS is getting out of casting stuff. When is the last time you recommended a mold design that is only made by RCBS? No big deal when they exit this market

RCBS is getting out of shotgun reloading. I only knew one competitive trap shooter who used the RCBS Grand and it was given to him as he was sponsored by them. MEC owns the hobby market. Spolar and Ponsness-Warren own the high end market. RCBS is nothing.

Progressive Reloaders...who has ever recommended one on this forum? None of the large volume shooters I have known have ever used RCBS progressives. I owned one (Green Machine)...the worst *** ever inflicted on the reloading community.

NOTHING surprises me about the OP. It was about time they focused on their core business and that is NOT casting, shotgun reloaders or metallic progressives.

Stop bashing the "bean counters". The "bean counters" who allowed RCBS to get into shotgun and progressive metallic reloaders hopefully were terminated decades ago....along with the engineers on that Green Machine.

I don't have a problem with them getting out. I do have a problem with them blaming their failure to upgrade their manufacturing technology and product line to to maintain and gain standing in the manufacturing of casting product on "the stagnation of cowboy action shooting" as a half truth at best. Bullet casting never did rely on cowboy action shooters, if anything, cowboy action shooting relied on the cast bullet, be it homemade or store bought and I bet there's plenty of store bought, in fact I 'd bet there is more store bought than homemade.

Here's a reality. RCBS never offered four cavity molds to my knowledge. Neither RCBS nor Lyman ever branched out into aluminum or brass offerings and never moved their mold making to CNC machinery. Neither company ever kept up with the known qualities of the requirements of a proper fitting cast bullet for revolvers. If you get a mold from them for a 44 it is going to drop .429 diameter bullets even though it has long been known that a cast bullet should be at least .001 over cylinder throat diameter. I've a Lipsey's GP 100 357 that has .359 throats. You won't find that from RCBS. Without question, RCBS makes a great mold. I have the 24390 257120 and the 30150CM and they are excellent molds and I've never had a moments trouble with either of the three. But if someone made the 30150CM in a four or six banger aluminum, I'd be all over it. (Recently got NOE's 170 RD, don't need a 4 banger CM now, and newer designs are another issue in this whole matter)

RCBS is getting out of the market because it failed to keep up with it. What the bean counters are seeing is a result of the failure and of course they are advocating getting out of the market, RCBS gave their market share to newer people in the field who had invested in CNC machinery which gave them the flexibility to at once offer a single bullet style over several diameters, meeting their customers needs for more than one diameter offering, to being able to make molds for multiple calibers with simple drills and boring bars rather than dedicated cherries and milling cutters. That was cutting edge technology in the early 1900's, but not in the 2000's. The real question this raises is RCBS changing their manufacturing methods to keep up with the times in their other manufacturing process or are they continuing to make the same mistakes there they've made with their casting products. If the answer to that is yes then it won't be long before they are telling us they are getting out of the reloading business as well.

[SSGOldfart]

Well said TarHeel.:goodpost::awesome::happy dance:

[mehavey]

RCBS is getting out of the market because
it failed to keep up with it. ...and it (and other businesses as well) began to fail when the bean counters
decided to milk all they could out of producing what they could out of what
they had at the time... instead of visionary investing toward the future.

When big conglomerates merge smaller money-maker enterprises,
they operate on the cash cow principle.
Run it dry, cast it off.

[dverna]

What I see are a handful of small custom mold makers putting out the best molds ever made. I own a few of them for that reason. For RCBS to succeed they would need to capture almost the whole custom mold market to make it worth doing plus a good part of the Lee market.

IMO be thankful RCBS has decided to leave it. If it mattered to them, they would buy the American mold makers, and jack up prices to cover their infrastructure costs. But the volume is too low to make the investment. BTW, if you think a little shop linke MP can satisfy the demand for molds, you have admitted the market is darn small.

But the boutique mold makers are only part of problem. Lee is the problem. I think 90% of cast bullets are pistol bullets used for pistol plinking...maybe more. And Lee stuff is cheap and good enough for most of the market.

Faced with a small custom mold market, and Lee taking care the bulk of the cast bullets needs for those wanting cheap and good enough...they are doing the smart thing.

I doubt 1000 people will miss RCBS getting out of the mold market...that is how insignificant it is. We have 50k members on this...the largest cast forum in the world...and a handful of members are wringing their hands.

[SSGOldfart]

I for one won't miss RCBS. Tar Heel some it up very nice on page one.

[Daekar]

Don has a good point. For whatever reason, they clearly haven't made competitive choices in the casting market, and I have never considered buying any RCBS molds...between Lee and the custom makers, there was never a reason to consider them, especially when they don't offer modern boolit designs in the first place. They have rendered themselves irrelevant, and will not be missed.

My bottom pour pot is by them, I think... it's green, anyway... and it's fine, I have no complaints, but I don't think it's any better than anything else on the market.

[charlie b]

I will say this about the 6.5 CM, which I dismissed for a decade as a fad, but finally got, not because I thought it was a good cartridge, I would have bought a .30-'06 if I could have, but because it happened to be the only cambering for Left-Handed Ruger Hawkeyes available at the time, and it was good deal I thought....


I was not discounting the 6.5CM. Only the average youngster who buys one expecting to hit bullseyes at 1000yd without any shooting skills. He is told that by all the advertising that it is like shooting a laser beam. When at the range the comments are along the lines of, 'This *** won't shoot straight. I gotta take it back.'

That is the common customer these days.

[Mal Paso]

RCBS's half hearted attempt with the Pro Melt 2 was the writing on the wall. There is no one at RCBS with a fire in their belly and they are slipping out of existence.

The goal of the Pro Melt 2 project should have been the best product on the market. They could have taken over. That Lyman is Retailing for $450 is Proof!

[Backcut]

I am 43. I started reloading in 2019. 9mm, 223, 308, 30-30, 8x57, 357, soon 45 auto. Some of these save me a little money per round. But even the 9mm and 223, while I couldn't load it as cheap as you could buy it 3 years ago... I could load it for almost that cheap but mine shoots as well or better than factory match ammo costing much more. Now, even figuring primers at 10c each, I'm loading it for cheaper than I can find anywhere. And I enjoy the hobby and time spent in the basement after the wife goes to bed.

I got a friend into reloading, I don't think he's 30 yet. I let him know when primers came back online a few months ago; he got some and the dies and components he needed and has been hanging out in my basement loading away. It's fun to have a reloading buddy. So there are some new people getting into it.

I don't cast yet, but I'd like to. I've been smelting range scrap in preparation. Experimenting with cast bullets I bought from Acme and others. Shopping around for a casting pot and molds. I have not even considered RCBS or any of the other old expensive iron mold makers. I'm looking at either Lee, or Noe or Arsenal etc.

I don't read gun magazines. Forums are more interesting, informative, and trustworthy (taking it all with a grain of salt).

[curioushooter]

I was not discounting the 6.5CM. Only the average youngster who buys one expecting to hit bullseyes at 1000yd without any shooting skills. He is told that by all the advertising that it is like shooting a laser beam. When at the range the comments are along the lines of, 'This *** won't shoot straight. I gotta take it back.'

That is the common customer these days.

I know what you mean, but I must repeat. I have the same "shooting skills" that I had a few years ago when I messing around with ought-six, 7.62.54R, 6.5x55, etc. Maybe they are worse today. I always figured I was the problem, doing something hokey either when I was shooting or when I was loading. Turns out that the hardware really does matter sometimes. 6.5CM is some secret sauce it seems.

[todd9.3x57]

gun rags are for tactic-cool people, worthless piles of dung.

i taught six people to handload. i am teaching another one.

i was 19yo when i first started to handload.

please include john wootters.

i have been casting for 10-11 years (i'm a neophyte).

i have been shooting since i was 10yo. (i am 49yo)

i like wildcats. 20 vartarg and 35/30-30 come to mind.

i like old cartridges. the 30-40 krag, 7.65x53, 9.3x57 and the 30 remington and others.

i love old blued steel and wood. i hate "plastic" guns.

i got rid of '06 and 308 and 223, mostly because EVERYBODY has one!!!!

i never owned a 9mm and i'm not going to.

i do case reforming ('06 brass - 6.5x55, 7.65 argy, 7, 8 and 9.3x57 to name a few).

oh, for the past 12 months, i let my beard grow out :redneck: and i voted for Trump.

[fredj338]

SOunds more like the guy just doesnt get why most people cast bullets; because they like doing it & its cheaper shooting. I cast for all my handguns, 9mm thru 45colt.

[Piłsudski]

I have lurked here for years, but this post has brought me out of the woods. I agree, it is thought provoking and provided some interesting viewpoints upon which I'd like to comment. This post will both serve as my introduction as well as my responses.

I began reloading in 1979. A friend offered to teach me to reload for my second centerfire rifle, a Remington 721 in 300 H&H. I bought the rifle because I wanted a 300 H&H. My friend offered to teach me how to reload, so I bought a set of dies (RCBS was all that was sold in our little Western town), a flat of primers, and a box of 150 gr Sierra boat tails. From my friend, who had made a bulk purchase, I bought 4# of surplus Hodgdon 4831. I went to his house and used his scale, trickler, and RCBS Jr press.

Soon, I bought a Rockchucker, a 505 scale, and a Uniflow powder measure and started doing things myself. I bought my 3rd handgun, a Ruger Blackhawk, in 45 Colt. After this, all of my dies and equipment was RCBS until I began shooting 45 Auto and 38 Spl in quantity. Then, I bought Lee carbide sizer dies. Other upgrades since then have been a RCBS Lube-A-Matic, a Ponsness Warren P-200 (for handguns), and dies from RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding, and Forster benchrest seaters. I've also either bought Redding stepped expanders or Lyman M dies for all cartridges, and a Lyman furnace. I have a pair of Lee Loadalls in 12 and 16 ga, but don't shoot shotguns very much.

My plan has been based on buying all of the equipment I'd need to shoot once I reached retirement, since it was obvious years ago that buying ammunition and bullets would be beyond my retirement budget.

I got into shooting after leaving a dissolute life in my youth and needed to avoid places like pool halls and other past hangouts. Therefore, my shooting has almost always been a solo activity, be it hunting, varmint hunting, or being at the range. Now, in retirement, it is one of my main hobbies (the other being postwar Lionel O Gauge).

About sharing information, most people don't want to receive advice. I will offer it when it seems like it would be received, but other than that, I keep my mouth shut. The range I use now is not very busy on weekdays, so that's when I go. Once, one of the range officers was talkative, and I talked to him. Other than that, I mind my own business, as does everyone else.

About young people, an old philosopher once said something like the older generation finding fault with the younger when they aren't able to set a bad example anymore. This seems to be true. So what, if they want to get into black rifles and hi-cap 9mms? It's not my money and no business of mine. So what if they don't appreciate older guns, as I do? The youth of today don't like phone calls, voice mail, hot rods, and old movies, like I do. They didn't grow up with "Rio Grande," "Captain Blood," or other such movies. They don't even like black and white movies or film noir. Their perspective is different. Well, big surprise! My Dad didn't like Leon Russell or Isaac Hayes. Does it really make sense that young people will share my tastes, which were shaped by my experiences? When I bought my 22, my Dad directed me toward an old Marlin 39a. I bought it, but I really wanted one of those slick Browning 22 Autos. He had watched all the "Oater" cowboy movies and knew all of those actors by heart -- that was his cultural perspective. I wanted what I saw in the American Rifleman ads. Decades later, my brother bought a Browning Auto. Out shooting gophers, I soon learned that Dad was no dummy: my old Marlin gave up nothing to my brother's fancy Browning -- not one gopher's worth. Sometimes it pays to listen, but as my Grandmother said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." My kids were taught and they will deal with their choices just like I've had to deal with the consequences of mine.

Years ago, the fellow in the LGS, my friend, told the story of an old man who came in with a Winchester Model 42 to be repaired. He announced with misty eyes that he was giving it to his grandson. Sure enough, a few weeks later, the grandson came in and took a hundred bucks for it. I should worry about what happens to my guns after I croak? Nope, I will use them and sell them as necessary. My boys are both smarter than I am and much more well-to do. They don't want my junk, or even family junk. I will please myself. My shooting has always been a solo endeavor. If I can share, I'm happy to. Otherwise, if shooting goes down the rat hole after I'm gone, that's hardly a care to me now and will be less of one when I'm gone.

My grandson, who now has my '54 Ford F100, just goes out and buys what he wants for it. He doesn't go scrounging through old wrecking yards for gauges, lock parts, or Ram's Horn exhaust manifolds. He just uses his old man's plastic. My Dad's last timing light, vacuum gauge, etc -- the grandson just went and bought junk instead. Ditto my nice ring compressor. Someday, my extensive tool set will go on the block. It's not out of spite or revenge. It's simply not appreciated or valued, so why should I work up a sweat over it?

No, today's gun and shooting scene is very different from my own perspective, and it is changing radically. But, I do rejoice in people buying black rifles and plastic pistols. Last year (2021) I understand that there were over 20 million FBI background checks. I would guess that the great majority of those were for sales of black rifles and plastic pistols to first time shooters and non-reloaders. What we need, if we have 300 million guns in America now, is 600 million guns in 5 years or less. More people who don't want their property and rights confiscated, and robust gun sellers (whether from the USA or Brazil, Turkey, Czech Republic, Japan, or wherever doesn't matter) will be much more effective in preserving everyone's rights than buying Wayne LaPierre new suits and yachts and other accoutrements of wealth.

6.5 Creedmoor? I had a 6.5x55 for awhile, and it was nice. Since I've gone over to almost total boolit shooting, I don't see any of the Creedmoors to be something I'm interested in having. Besides, "everyone" knows that the optimal caliber is 6.8mm, not 6.5mm or 7mm, and I've already got one of those modern perfect calibers: 270 Winchester. So, if you want a Creedmoor, or you find a good deal on one, have at it with my full approval. There's nothing about this gun stuff that trumps what you like, anyway, and that needs no justification (unless you are buying to impress somebody else for some reason).

I had been thinking about one of those plastic pistols myself, considering that one would be more suitable for carry than the relics I currently use. Then, out of the blue, my Bride told me that I could have a gun for Christmas! I was certain that my buying days were done (and they are now), so I considered those compact Ruger 9s made of plastic on sale at Sportsman's. Then, I ordered an 1889 Swiss. What a pleasure, examining and working that piece, and wondering about the fellow who put his name under the butt plate all of those years ago! Others may like the bathtub toy plastic, and again, more power to them.

I'll be needing a mould for it. (I'll also be posting questions about this sometime.) I have few Lymans, some SAECOs for the bullseye shooting, and some RCBSs, both handgun and rifle. I may go in two directions here: I bought a Lee 8x56R for 8mm Lebel, and I might go for one of those Karabiner Maxx Lee moulds from MidSouth for the Swiss if MidSouth ever get them back in stock. Lee hasn't been as durable as I'd like in the past. But then, I thought, I'm not at the point of thinking I'll live forever anymore. Maybe a Lee will last long enough for me to get to the Heavenly realm. (For this reason, I did grab a Lee 6 cavity in 9mm. The price was very attractive!)

I needed a mould for 577-450 and looked around. I ended up with one from Accurate. It is at least as nice as the SAECOs, RCBSs, or an old Lyman that I have. Also, when I compare prices, a mould from Accurate, which I can have custom made, isn't very much more than one from SAECO or RCBS. This makes me ask, why do I need RCBS? As others have said, they don't have anything new, anyway. I have a 270 150gr (which I understand can't be obtained new any longer) and a 308 180gr, as well as a risk I took on a 45 Colt used mould they don't offer anymore, and a 480 Ruger mould that will be a plinker bullet for 577-450. I don't see anything more in RCBS's mould catalog that I need. I can go Accurate or SAECO and be quite happy, or maybe even Lee in some cases, for my needs.

I understand that RCBS bought up Ohaus back when they were part of Omark, or something like that. I'd guess that their tooling and such isn't the newest in many cases. My RCBS moulds are nice -- I don't question that. But maybe they just want to put their efforts in to some other market. Bean counters, youth -- who cares about that stuff?!?! One of my Grandmother's sayings was "They're going to do what they're going to do!" Why should I get into paroxysms of rage and name calling over these things? Anyway, I'm familiar with St. Francis's "Serenity Prayer." It seems like good advice to me, and time is too short to be spinning my wheels over things beyond my control.

[Tar Heel]

Wonderful first post Pilsudski. Thanks for the comments and point of view.

As another long-time handloader, your loading bench is probably a rainbow of tool colors. If like mine, it has Orange gear, Green gear, Blue gear, Red Gear, Golden gear, Black gear, Silver gear, and a myriad of other less obvious colors, you too bought what was available. I never was one to buy a single manufacturers gear, I bough what was available at my LGS and met my needs. This was all of course, prior to online purchasing in those heady pre-internet years. Who would have thought that all of the products would be up for sale at one vendor web site like MidwayUSA?

When I lived in Virginia, we always made the trip to Clark Brothers in Warrenton to get reloading supplies. John Clark stocked all you could need. I haven't been back there in the last 30 years but I would bet the reloading supplies, which took up 1/3 of the show floor, now take up a single shelf 3 feet long.

[Shopdog]

Looking up....speaking of Clark bros....

Somewhere around the late 70's I had been casting with the ole Coleman stove for a few years. Used to go to Clark bros when going by there. On their shelf was a used 10# Lyman pot,and a box with some moulds,handles,and parts. Since I had been a good customer of theirs for years(started as a youngster with dad)....

I asked Mr Clark what the skinny was on the old Lyman pot? He said nobody's casting anymore,and if I wanted it.... just take it. So "things" haven't changed all that much? And yes,am still using that 10#'er.

[Rich/WIS]

Have owned molds by RCBS, Lyman/Ideal, NOE and LEE. Still have the NOE and LEE molds, all 5 or 6 cavity. Good bullet designs, production speed and the weight factor in aluminum is a big factor. My rifle press is a RC, for pistol a Lyman Mag T, and for priming off press the little LEE C press. Dies are Lyman, Hornady, RCBS and a mix of Lyman M dies and their old sliding seater dies. My sizer/lubricators are Lyman (4) and RCBS. I have powder measures from Lyman, RCBS, LEE and a vintage Forster/Bonanza fixed rotor.

I provide this inventory to demonstrate that we are blessed with a variety of loading and casting equipment from a quite a few manufacturers. In terms of molds there are plenty of makers who will be glad to take your money for what you think works best for you, either off the shelf or custom. If we were still depending on only RCBS and Lyman for molds then RCBS might be missed, but in the marketplace today doubt if many will miss or lament their passing as far as molds are concerned.

Agree totally that RCBS missed the boat by making only double cavity steel molds.

[tmanbuckhunter]

A lot of this is perspective. I'll be 30 in March. I know a lot of handloaders my age, and even bullet casters. I own one AR, and the rest of my collection consists of Marlin leverguns, military surplus, and several primitive muzzleloaders, mostly flintlocks. A lot of the reason for why plastic and soulless production rifles are so popular is cost. Money doesn't go the distance it once went, and many of the younger generation simply can't afford a piece of classic american iron, even if they want it. What makes more sense? Buy a Ruger American for a few hundred bucks in a decent cartridge, put a decent scope on it, and now you can target shoot with MOA or better precision, and hunt just about anything in North America, or go spend $3-$6k on a Shiloh sharps in a cartridge you may have to handload for? Many of those of the younger generation aren't even taking home $3,000/mo after taxes, health insurance, and living expenses.

Go easy on the younger generation. Less gate keeping, more guiding. I was fortunate to grow up in a hunting family full of riflemen. I grew up watching Westerns with my grand parents, and watching my grandfather build fine sporting rifles. I knew what Richards Microfit was at 6 years old. My upbringing is why I collect Marlins, flintlocks, and shoot BPCR competitively. It's why I've been sitting at a handloading bench since I was a boy. Not everyone got that opportunity, and even more so with the newer, younger generations. I've have plenty of men from my generation, and younger see me at the range and ask me what I'm shooting, and after explaining it and letting them take a few cracks with it, guess what? It now interests them too. They simply were never exposed to it. The ones that can afford it, will come around eventually.

[Tar Heel]

Looking up....speaking of Clark bros....

Somewhere around the late 70's I had been casting with the ole Coleman stove for a few years. Used to go to Clark bros when going by there. On their shelf was a used 10# Lyman pot,and a box with some moulds,handles,and parts. Since I had been a good customer of theirs for years(started as a youngster with dad)....

I asked Mr Clark what the skinny was on the old Lyman pot? He said nobody's casting anymore,and if I wanted it.... just take it. So "things" haven't changed all that much? And yes,am still using that 10#'er.

I used to work there and the family was wonderful. On Sunday, the ladies would start cooking biscuits and ham early. Then lunch was usually stew or a ham or a pot roast with all the trimmings. John had a refrigerator stocked with soft drinks and water, a freezer chocked full of ice cream. All of the food and treats were on the house. He really was great to work for as were the sons/nephews. On Sunday he would have the "Stained Glass Blue Grass" show playing on the speakers and every now and then Grandpa Jones or String Bean or another famous Grand Ole Opera Blue Grass musician would stop in to yak with John for a while. It was a wonderful place to work - felt like I was family. And man - John knew his guns.

[1hole]

I'm far too old and have used far too many good tools of many colors to still have a childlike affection for inanimate objects and paint. I know for sure that all reloading tool brands have some unique or unusually good devices and all makers have some real clunkers. I know some tool designs are made for some uses while other designs are made for other users. I believe ALL users should buy what they actually need - not what I or web others need - without being publically denigrated by brand and price snobs.

We should all get what we actually need to best fit our own working methods without childishly crowing to others that, "My beloved and exquisite brand of reloading tools is far better than your cheep junk brand"; grown-ups really should outgrow such "king of the hill" silliness. (Devoted RCBS loyalists are the silliest; I often read their emphatic web messages to the effect that, "Anything green is perfection and anything red, i.e. 'Lee', is trash!" Gag.)

Bottom line, no matter any personal illusions, RCBS tools are reasonably good overall but on case-by-case examples they are certainly not reloading's universal shining light on a hill. So, okay, some of green's molds are good (and some are not so good) but green is dropping molds anyway; big deal. We have other mold makers out there so I doubt their loss will disrupt the national cast boolit market at all.

I knew several years ago that Lee's Classic Cast presses would hurt the sales of over priced Rock Chuckers but I didn't know how bad it would be until I learned green had started getting their iron press castings from China and finishing them here so they could put "Made in the USA" labels on them. Thankfully, my now old (1993) 'RChucker 2 was made in the USA. Truth is, on average, the RC is a good tool but it's no better than any other compound linkage, single stage press in its general design class. And green die's critical dimensions are made to the specifications of SAAMI; exactly as are all other die brands.

YMMV.

[charlie b]

This thread reminds me of several of my other hobbies. RC model airplanes is one. It is suffering from the "drone frenzy" and made in China stuff. Building has dwindled to just a trickle. Same story. In our youth we built the planes because we could not afford one that was already made up. Now Chinese factories pump them out. And those who just want to fly get drones with cameras in them so they can fly like in their video games. Balsa wood is at an all time high because they use it in windmill blades. Hobby stores have gone away or have become minor players. The Chinese have large warehouses on other continents and deliver quickly. What was once an industry with a ton of local jobs is now a shadow.

Yep, every industry evolves over time and each generation follows a different path. My kids and grandkids have no interest in guns either, so, when I go everything will be sold off, probably at very cheap prices.

I do not doubt that in 200yrs we won't recognize the world, just as those 200yrs ago would not recognize this one.

[1eyedjack]

The youth has evolved in our country until if you can't do something on your phone let someone else do it for you. There are few craftsmen left in our world - those that can make or build some thing using their hands and tools!! Boolit casters still have that desire or want to accomplish something that seems to be dwindling away. We are a dying breed.

[Piłsudski]

I'm far too old and have used far too many good tools of many colors to still have a childlike affection for inanimate objects and paint.

Oh, I still like a lot of my tools because I like them, even if they aren't optimal in some cases. This may be because I can't afford better, or the tool was given to me, or just because it's the way I like to do things. As my choices don't affect anyone else negatively (other than maybe hurt feelings due to a lack of affirmation), then that's their issue, not mine.


We should all get what we actually need to best fit our own working methods without childishly crowing to others that, "My beloved and exquisite brand of reloading tools is far better than your cheep junk brand"; grown-ups really should outgrow such "king of the hill" silliness.

If somebody wants to give me something, then that's their choice. Otherwise, when it's my money that's paying the piper, I'll call the tune, thank you very much, and whether that pleases others or not is their affair. Of course, if someone else shares my interest in an activity or taste, like boolits or old Colts, then we have a basis for sharing and swapping stories.


Bottom line, no matter any personal illusions, RCBS tools are reasonably good overall but on case-by-case examples they are certainly not reloading's universal shining light on a hill. So, okay, some of green's molds are good (and some are not so good) but green is dropping molds anyway; big deal. We have other mold makers out there so I doubt their loss will disrupt the national cast boolit market at all.

I think that this sums things up. My analogy here (and granted, it doesn't hold in every aspect) is with Craftsman tools. When I started reloading, RCBS was the only brand available, because that's what the local sporting goods store carried. (Living in a small town has its plusses and minuses, but I'm still thankful for where I live. I've lived in a number of other places, so have some bases for comparison. My suit fits me; I can't say whether it's to anyone else's liking.) I read things like "Handloader's Digest" and knew of other products, but even if I wanted one, those products weren't available to me. There are advantages to buying on line, especially when living in more rural areas, after all!

So from my youth, my Dad had a lot of Craftsman tools and Sears was VERY handy. Their tools were serviceable and they backed their products very well. Dad said, "Every payday, buy a tool. It doesn't matter whether it costs 99¢ or $99 -- just buy one. Soon, you will have a nice selection of tools.

I did this for years, and did acquire a useful set of tools. There was a time when I began to realize that there were differences in quality, however. My Dad's 1/4" Skil electric drill that he bought in 1946 was heads and shoulders in quality above anything from Sears. I still have that drill, and aside from being metal framed and not grounded, it still is better than any corded drill I could or would aspire to own. Later, when it came time to buy a circular saw, I bought a Milwaukee, and have never been sorry. Once, I bought a 20" Sears chainsaw. Big mistake, as we heated with wood in those days. I dumped it and got a 20" Husqvarna. Again, light and day quality difference! Sears center punches and metal chisels are like many of their other hand tools: soft. Dad taught me how to temper them by oil quenching, which helped, but they were always too soft. Later, I acquired other tools that were better. Snap On screwdrivers were 100% better, but expensive, so I only have a few. I have Wiha and Wera tools, which are really nice.

Sears is no longer ubiquitous and other tools are available. The common Craftsman guarantee is also available, even at Harbor Freight. I bought a Harbor Freight tiny miter saw for trimming 24 gauge shotgun shells and cutting Lionel tubular track. It was pretty cheap. Is it in the same league as an old Skil or Milwaulkee? Hardly! But it suits my purposes just fine. The cheap number-letter punches from Harbor Freight aren't the greatest, either, but I got them to stamp lead ingots, so they will also serve for their purpose.

When I lost my job, I got a job in the electrical department of Lowe's. There was nothing in my experience to compare with working in retail when it came to understanding the character of John Q. Public. (Many stories here! My Wife took a job in Joann's fabric and had the same experiences. We have since used the admonishment, "stop acting like a customer!" with each other.) Once, one loud mouthed lout began braying about whether the merchandise was made in China, and that he didn't want to buy anything from China. Well, it wasn't. Some of the nails and screws came from the United Arab Emirates!?!? It took all my self-control to refrain from telling him that if that's how he felt, he should leave, and not bother going across the highway to Home Depot, because their stuff all came from China, too.

I don't care for stuff from China, either, but sometimes there is no alternative.

When I was younger, we all felt the same way about stuff from Japan. (It's odd, how now Japanese stuff is often looked at as some of the very best available!) I found a 10" adjustable wrench while scrounging in the junkyard then. I still have it, and it's much better than any of my soft Craftsman adjustables, and comparable to the old Crescents I inherited from Dad.

So, my preferences are for American made stuff, although I'll buy European and Asian stuff if there's no alternative, or if foreign stuff is better. I won't buy junk just to wave a flag.


I knew several years ago that Lee's Classic Cast presses would hurt the sales of over priced Rock Chuckers but I didn't know how bad it would be until I learned green had started getting their iron press castings from China and finishing them here so they could put "Made in the USA" labels on them. Thankfully, my now old (1993) 'RChucker 2 was made in the USA. Truth is, on average, the RC is a good tool but it's no better than any other compound linkage, single stage press in its general design class.

So here's where the Craftsman analogy comes in: there are other moulds, and some may be better in some cases. No longer, with the custom mould making business that we have now, and the internet marketing, is RCBS the only choice. Yes, they are/were nice moulds, and yes, I'm not pleased to see them exit the market, though I'm not grieving the matter. The more the merrier for all in this gun business during these days, but RCBS exiting mould making is not a critical or serious loss. There are other choices easily available.


And green die's critical dimensions are made to the specifications of SAAMI; exactly as are all other die brands.

Well, yes and no. I load for 7.5x53.5mm (1889 Swiss) and there ARE differences between brands. Lee 577-450 dies overwork the brass (maybe fore boolits closer to 0.458"?) but they are a night and day difference in price from alternate products. Lyman moulds seem to be variable in size, so even though I have some, I try to avoid them in general.


This thread reminds me of several of my other hobbies. RC model airplanes is one. It is suffering from the "drone frenzy" and made in China stuff. Building has dwindled to just a trickle. Same story. In our youth we built the planes because we could not afford one that was already made up. Now Chinese factories pump them out. And those who just want to fly get drones with cameras in them so they can fly like in their video games. Balsa wood is at an all time high because they use it in windmill blades. Hobby stores have gone away or have become minor players. The Chinese have large warehouses on other continents and deliver quickly. What was once an industry with a ton of local jobs is now a shadow.

This is the same as my interest in Postwar Lionel. The old stuff, which was pretty much electromechanical, has given way to all sorts of gadgets. Sound, for instance, is now on board. Many (and they aren't always young, either, plenty of old fogeys like me say this) denigrate the air whistles I love as primitive and crude. Well, there's no way that sound that comes from a tiny speaker sounds anything like a horn or whistle to my ears, either! But, I didn't pay for their four-figure Big Boy, and I hope they're happy. More than guns, model trains have taught me to give up this crusade to ensure that the world stays safe for Post War Lionel. Zamak is the proper material for a locomotive shell, I think! (But I wouldn't give a warm bucket of spit for a gun made out of it -- then again, many like them and that's their business.)

Like R/C (don't even mention free flight or C/L! I think Windy Urtnowski still has his C/L store in New Jersey, though.) the hobby stores for model trains have been disappearing, like the exceptional one in Denver. It's either the internet or die for hobby stores, it seems.


Yep, every industry evolves over time and each generation follows a different path. My kids and grandkids have no interest in guns either, so, when I go everything will be sold off, probably at very cheap prices.

I do not doubt that in 200yrs we won't recognize the world, just as those 200yrs ago would not recognize this one.

I think you are right. I think that at the bottom of this, it is a "values" issue. I remember that, back in the "old days" (my old days, anyway) there were always a few Winchester Self-loaders on the racks. I turned my nose up at them because they exemplified Winchester's arrogant and foolish treatment of John Browning. Foolish me! The quality of those guns was amazing. The bluing and wood-to-metal finish was better than anything I can even afford to touch now. They were dirt cheap because nobody wanted them. No ammo was available. Now, I'd love to have a nice 351 or 401 for $150 or $175, and wouldn't wait a second to buy one!

But most wouldn't be interested. Fit and finish, along with a pedigree, means little to someone who drools over the stuff that's in the counters today. They like the plastic and glorified paint finish. As a lover of "Colt Royal Blue," I turned my nose up at the black caustic finish on Smith & Wessons, and even Rugers. But even that black finish has an elegance compared to the finishes they put on guns now. It is too close to the paint slathered on my RFI 2A for me to get interested in it. I admit that it's durable, but it doesn't do anything for me.

Same with my reloading tools. When the Rockchucker became too slow and clumsy for handgun work, I grabbed a Ponsness-Warren P-200. Sure, a Dillon might have made more sense from the speed perspective, but not from the appreciation perspective. Again, here, I'll compare to hand tools: I'm not in a position to buy a new Snap On or Mac ratchet, but I did buy a new long handle 3/8" Proto a little while ago. Proto was a big deal in days gone by, and my Dad had a Plomb wrench and socket set for ages, before Plumb (the carpenter's hammer people) made them change their name. I have some other Proto stuff and it feels very nice in my hands, which is reason enough for me to buy the stuff.

Anyway, from the glass-of-water-half-full perspective, more people in shooting sports, whatever their tastes, is bound to be a good thing, even if it doesn't square with my tastes 100%. There are other things in life that are more worthy of my attention then the tastes and purchases of others.

[charlie b]

I would like to point out that there are quite a few 'youngsters' out there who appreciate quality tools, and wish they could afford them. The local contractors who are around the house comment on some of my tools and were saving up to buy the premium brands. My son is an electrician and values his Klein and similar tools. He taught me about the reliability of Makita stuff. He also taught himself machine control software programming and differential calculus.

Yes, many, many of them will never touch a tool. Just like in my youth the number of people who could use wood or metal working tools were a very small percentage (much less than 1%). I found the same problem when I got in the Army. I got to help teach kids how to use the tools they were issued. Not much has changed in 50 years.

Yes, many of us can appreciate a finely fitted and finished weapon (I inherited several). But, even these days I would not spend money on them if they did not shoot better than the budget models. Which is why I have a couple of Savage's :)

I could even venture to say that anyone who owns a Savage is contributing to the decline of the gun making world. :)

And, yes, I agree that anyone who chooses to own and use guns in a lawful manner deserve credit for their decisions, even if they decide to buy something a cheap version.

[dverna]

What ticks me off is my $225 T/C Compass is more accurate than my beautiful Model 70 Winchester that cost three times as much.

It ticks me off that my Glock is a better carry gun than my Kimber that costs twice as much.

If some bastard comes up with a SAA that is half the price and better than my Colts, that will tick me off too.

I like nice stuff...but when the cheap stuff does the job better, I use the cheap stuff.

[Tar Heel]

What ticks me off is my $225 T/C Compass is more accurate than my beautiful Model 70 Winchester that cost three times as much.

It ticks me off that my Glock is a better carry gun than my Kimber that costs twice as much.

If some bastard comes up with a SAA that is half the price and better than my Colts, that will tick me off too.

I like nice stuff...but when the cheap stuff does the job better, I use the cheap stuff.

Don, I use the things that work and spend the money needed to get value from the product at a price I can afford. Would I like to drive a Rolls Royce to work? Not really. I recognize the quality (albeit perceived now) of the Rolls but I have no desire to spend that much money when a transportation vehicle can cost a million dollars less.

We now have Colt SAA revolvers at 1/4 of the cost of a new Colt SAA. Are they better or worse? I would have just as much fun with either, shoot them the same, clean them the same, and repair them the same as springs break and hands wear. Some may say the cheaper version does better than the originals.

I see what your point is but speaking for myself, I have to operate within my budgetary parameters. I strive to get the best value and quality for my money. There may be better value out there but I may not be able to afford it. It also depends on why I am purchasing something. My guns are playthings not needed things. Well a few may be sometime soon but in general, they are but adult toys.

A home heating system is a needed thing. I will go as far as possible to get the best unit I can. Need versus want. Required versus toy. I am sure you are the same way too and that we think alike.

There are some things today which cost less to produce than similar items from decades ago. My mother's Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in .270 Winchester is a thing of beauty. It does show some wear and I am sure the barrel has some appreciable wear from when the rifle was purchased for her decades ago. Current manufacturing tooling and process may however, produce a more accurate rifle at 1/3 the cost of that Winchester. It will probably have a black synthetic stock and look horrendous but there is now a very accurate rifle on the market for a more "modern" selling price. The market has changed considerably.

For me at least, the first bite is with the eye. If the firearm looks cheap - it must be cheaply made and a lousy performer. Of course this is a prejudice I bring to the sales floor and a prejudice which reflects my personal taste in firearms. I personally do not care for black plastic. I prefer wood and case hardened metal. I do however recognize that some of the black plastic junk has value when used in a role it was designed for. Were I to go into a hostile environment with the lads, I would opt for a Beretta M92 over a Hi-Point or even a beloved Uberti 1873 SAA. The Hi-Point to me is cheaply produced for a low end market, and the SAA is not the tool I would bring to the stated environment when a better tool exists. Hand drills are great to fool around with but an electric drill is better.

I dearly appreciate nice stuff with high quality. If something exists that costs less and works better, I like you, will gravitate towards it. It's not that it's "cheap", it is simply less expensive. Quality and cost are two different measurements. We always say cheap to mean junk but that is not necessarily the case. Junk is junk and can can be inexpensive or expensive junk. Boy I have made that mistake a few times - buying expensive junk thinking because it cost more, it had high quality.

I once saw a customer purchase a brand new Colt Python revolver from the sales counter. He took the revolver, with tags still dangling from the trigger guard, out to the range. He loaded it and attempted to shoot it. It snapped 6 times. Click, click, click, click, click, click. He dumped the ammo and noticed no firing pin strikes on the primers. The firing pin was MISSING. High cost - poor performance and quality. Of course the same kind of thing can be said of other revolvers on the market. I once saw a Pietta 1851 new in the box where the wedge key could not be removed from the gun. Literally. It had been forced in place along with metal shavings from a milling station and had become "one with the gun."

Brand is another perception of quality. All Colt's must be high quality. All Brand-A must be junk. You have to admit that over the years we have seen runs of questionable quality from highly respected brands. Which Winchester rifle is built better with higher quality process and parts? A Pre-64, a post '64, or a modern Miroku Winchester. You may not like my answer based on a prejudice you may have for one period over another. Since I brought it up, I will say that the modern Miroku rifles have far superior material quality and production quality. The Japanese, with the adoption of Edward Deming's quality control concepts, have made American production look like third-world production. While I like a pre-64 Winchester Model 94 for it's appeal, I have to say the modern variant is a vastly superior firearm at about the same time-adjusted cost.

Oh well. Give me wood and metal at an affordable cost and that is when my wallet appears! :-)

[dverna]

Tar Heel we think alike.

When I ordered the Compass I had never seen one. I saw the reviews anD paid $200 shipped after rebate plus $25 FFL fee. At that price, I figured it should be a decent enough beater gun to hunt with so I would not get the M70 dinged up in the woods. Or I would turn it into a cast bullet plinker.

When I unboxed it, it looked like a cheap ***. I did not hold much faith in it. Trigger was not good. Put on a cheap Nikon scope and started throwing groups on paper. The damn thing shot better than the M70. I replaced the scope with a Vortex that cost more than double what I paid for the rifle. It is now my primary hunting rifle.

I ordered a trigger kit for it and I am thinking of adding a Boyd’s At-One stock. After doing that, it will still cost less than half of a M70 and shot better.

There was a previous post about buying “quality” stuff. To me “quality” in a rifle is accuracy and dependability. I know the Compass is accurate, but not if it is as dependable as the M70.

If I had to get rid of one, the Compass would go. I am a gun snob.
If a man on a budget asked me to recommend a hunting rifle, it would be the Compass.

It is stupid to pay for a name, fit and finish unless someone can afford to do so. That Compass is the cheapest rifle at deer camp, and outshoots Tikka’s, M700’s, Rugers, and my M70.

And reality is most of the guys cannot shoot sub MOA even with a capable rifle. A *** Compass or Axis gets the job done. Paying for quality is for those who can afford it or need to impress someone.

[414gates]

Its not about the bean counters my friends it is about reality.

Read the OP

RCBS is getting out of casting stuff. When is the last time you recommended a mold design that is only made by RCBS? No big deal when they exit this market

RCBS is getting out of shotgun reloading. I only knew one competitive trap shooter who used the RCBS Grand and it was given to him as he was sponsored by them. MEC owns the hobby market. Spolar and Ponsness-Warren own the high end market. RCBS is nothing.

Progressive Reloaders...who has ever recommended one on this forum? None of the large volume shooters I have known have ever used RCBS progressives. I owned one (Green Machine)...the worst *** ever inflicted on the reloading community.

NOTHING surprises me about the OP. It was about time they focused on their core business and that is NOT casting, shotgun reloaders or metallic progressives.

Stop bashing the "bean counters". The "bean counters" who allowed RCBS to get into shotgun and progressive metallic reloaders hopefully were terminated decades ago....along with the engineers on that Green Machine.

+1

Making products costs money, especially at the machining and material quality level of RCBS. If the lines don't sell, terminate them. It's what every business does to improve the bottom line.

What RCBS is saying in the OP is that their shotshell / progressive reloaders and casting equipment product lines are running at a loss at the moment. Their error is to assume that nobody casts or reloads shotshell or ammo just because those product lines are not doing well for them.

I have a Pro 2000 that came with the primer slide upgrade, and the auto index upgrade. I use it for rifle only, so I reverted to the manual index wheel. The precision of the mating parts is phenomenal, far superior to Lee or Hornady. That, plus the materials used, probably priced them out of the market.

The new progressives that could have taken back some market share launched with a dud priming system that needed parts to be developed and replaced to get working. Those presses retail at eye watering prices. Consumer confidence takes long to build, and is quick to lose.

There are more shooters than ever that reload. For example, there is an uptake in rifle sport shooting amongst the younger generation[s], with high volume round count requirements. There is a huge market for progressive reloaders and related equipment for those shooting disciplines, so if they can innovate and get to market at a competitive price point, they can start turning that part of the business around.

[JohnH]

My complaint was never that RCBS was getting out of the business. My complaint was and is that they are crying that the market for their product is shrinking when the3 flourshing of boutique mold makers seems to be doing nothing but flourishing, and there is enough support for the art that casting forums can be found on most very forum which offers shooting/hunting sub forums. And on the one's I visit thee is always an influx of new casters. So I call BS on RCBS saying the market is shrinking. If nothing else it is maintaining a steady state, this in the face of a supply that was for the greatest part of my life, free or extremely low cost.

RCBS is getting out of the market because they failed to respond to the manufacturing forces which drive competitiveness. They, like Lyman ar making molds today with the same technology that molds were made with in the late 19th and early 20th century. It is absurd to think that a boutique mold maker can invest in CNC lathe and milling equipment and be profitable in this market while RCBS does not make that investment and makes excuses to the public rather than own up to the fact it made a bad business decision. And knowing that this technology is at the least some 25 years old, it was not a recent decision, but an old one and one they continued to stay with regardless of the evidence that the winds of success in manufacturing this product had changed. If they feel they can not be successful in the market, more power to 'em, but don't lie to us about the root causes of their decision. As well, there was nothing keeping them from being at the forefront of new designs. Lyman for years and years made new designs in line with the wants and needs of the cast shooting public as well as fresh understandings of what makes a cast bullet shoot well. One need only look at Lyman #225646 and #311644 to see this (I think it was Lyman #47 Handbook that described the engineering of these molds). Lyman has consistently supported the casting community with new molds and loading data. RCBS has only produced one loading manual for their designs. Contrast that with Lee having never produced any data for their designs. It comes down to a question of investment in their manufacturing, their product line and their customer base and from all indications, RCBS's heart was never really in it.

I will reiterate, I don't care if RCBS is in or out of the market, but them laying the blame for their decision to pull put of it has nothing to do their claim of a shrinking market, they never moved in a way to support or be profitable in that market over time and like all dinosaurs which fail to or are unable to adapt to a new environment, they cease to be. And I predict that if Lyman doesn't change their manufacturing model in the near future they are going to suffer the same fate.

[Tar Heel]

Let us not forget that the mold business is a matter of SCALE. Lyman and RCBS have to make production runs of a thousand copies of EACH MOLD to ship to retailers around the world. A boutique mold maker makes your design and sells one mold. RCBS and Lyman employ hundreds of workers to produce multiple product lines. A boutique mold maker employs 1 or two people to make molds. RCBS and Lyman have to survive market swings and economic shifts. A boutique mold maker may not be able to survive an economic downturn. Again, it's a matter of scale.

[curioushooter]

A lot of the reason for why plastic and soulless production rifles

Guns of all types are fairly affordable, well, until maybe the last couple years. I am 37 and have been buying/selling guns since I was 22, about 15 years. Seen the Obama scare come and go. But also remeber a time when you could walk to an open air gunshow in an Ohio fairground and pick up a really nice S&W 64 with a 2.5" barrel for $250. You can't get deals like that anymore, but looking at new firearms...

I bought a Ruger Bisley New Model Flatop Blackhawk in 2019 for $600 new. That's about three days wages for average income. You think you could pick up a colt SAA for three days wages at any time in its production run? And the Blackhawk is a better in many ways. It's certainly stronger and more durable using coil springs.

You can get a Charles Daly M1911A1 for about $450 even now. These are shockingly nice. They are better than any US produced M1911A1 I've come across. That's two days wages. You think one could pick up a 1911 pistol in 1925 for two days wages? And this is about what tupperwear costs. So plastic isn't necessary to make something affordable.

I bought a new Pietta Colt 1860 Army replica around Christmas at bass pro for $250 and tax. A days wage. And the quality is unbelievable at that price point. A bunch of fun. Most fun handgun I've bought I think. No plastic there. Only European walnut, steel, and brass.

I could go on here. Except for some bargain basement AR15s, those are not really affordable. A lot of AR15 builds end up being a lot more than a thousand dollars. That's more than my new walnut and stainless steel Hawkeye cost.

[charlie b]

And on top of that, even the cheaper rifles are more accurate than most sporters were 40 years ago. Material production methods have improved the quality and quantity so prices are relatively lower. Combined with precision casting/forging, CNC and more precise quality control and you get better stuff with less man hours invested.

'Plastic' stocks (and guns) are part of that for two reasons. The biggest is ease of production. The second is stability. No longer have to worry about a stock warping or sealing it so it won't absorb moisture and change the POI. Yeah, they are not 'warm and fuzzy', but, they work well. For pistols it is light and durable. No issues with rust, easy to clean, etc.

[h8dirt]

Regarding shotshell reloading economic savings, it does make sense on the 28 gauge and .410 bore shells. Not so much on the 12’s and 20’s.

[megasupermagnum]

Regarding shotshell reloading economic savings, it does make sense on the 28 gauge and .410 bore shells. Not so much on the 12’s and 20’s.

7/8oz 20 gauge trap loads sure, but even then they cost as much or more than 12 gauge. Everything else is quite expensive. Don't forget 16 and 10 gauges, which you would be poor if you had to buy ammo for. If you are like 98% of people and blow off whatever ammo is cheapest now and again, then use a box or two a year to hunt, then no, there's no reason to reload. If you do compete, you can reload shells as good as Remington STS, Federal Gold Medal, etc. for the cost of promo shells. If you hunt quite a bit, you can make superior ammo. Back when I started reloading I had no money. It was whatever I could scrape together helping dad refinish apartments, or scrap metal, or whatever. Dad gave me his Lee load all for free, then I bought a few hundred primers, a couple pounds of powder, a bag of wads, and scored a couple old bags of shot from someone. I was able to hunt all year trouble free for the cost of 3-4 boxes of hunting ammo. Back then my shooting wasn't so good. It was nothing to blow a box of ammo a day on ducks, 2 boxes happened quite often. It was also a lot more pass and jump shooting too, as I didn't have money for decoys, and painted jugs only work so well.

I don't save money like I used to, but you can still load ammo for cheap. That's more true today than when I was a kid. The only thing that has changed is that I can't walk into the local Fleet Farm and grab a primers from an unlocked shelf whenever I want, and I don't get to admire a wall of powders.

[Winger Ed.]

you can reload shells as good as Remington STS, Federal Gold Medal, etc. for the cost of promo shells.

That was always my reasoning for reloading 12 ga.

Plus, it keeps me out of those crooked BINGO parlors.

[Jtarm]

And on top of that, even the cheaper rifles are more accurate than most sporters were 40 years ago. Material production methods have improved the quality and quantity so prices are relatively lower. Combined with precision casting/forging, CNC and more precise quality control and you get better stuff with less man hours invested.

'Plastic' stocks (and guns) are part of that for two reasons. The biggest is ease of production. The second is stability. No longer have to worry about a stock warping or sealing it so it won't absorb moisture and change the POI. Yeah, they are not 'warm and fuzzy', but, they work well. For pistols it is light and durable. No issues with rust, easy to clean, etc.

Spot on.

Shooters used to have to earn MOA groups with careful handloading and things like glass bedding/free floating.

Factory ammo was crap.

[Jtarm]

Fred Huntington must be rolling in his grave.