2400's behavior in larger rifle cases

[Bigslug]

Not my first rodeo; not afraid to cautiously work "off the reservation" in load development. I know how to not blow myself up, so we can withhold the "you'll shoot your eye out kid" replies.

The game plan is to work up a long range (500+ yards) load in .30-06 using NOE's 311299 GC clone. 2400 is on hand in quantity and been rejected for my pistol applications, but it's a good fit for cast in rifles and it's not doing anything else...

The load data for cast in the latest Lyman manual for the .30-06 is a little bit fishy, at best. They bounce between PSI and CUP for pressure with considerable abandon.

Also, they list a max load of 21 grains for my 200 grain bullet at 1736 fps and 27,300 PSI, yet the 10 grains heavier, longer bearing surface 311284 goes to 24 grains, 1827 fps, and 32,000 CUP. They also list the 170 grain 311291 at 43,100CUP with a 29.5 grain charge.

They're running Unique (faster than 2400) and 4759 (a little slower) for 160 grain cast to over 50,000 PSI

So, given that the .30-06 and modern sporting arms are rated for pressures much higher than the good folks at Lyman are listing for 2400, my question is this:

What are the characteristics of 2400 that are causing Lyman to put their max loads where they do? Barring data to the contrary, my inclination is to work steadily upwards over the chronograph until erratic velocities and/or pressure signs tell me to stop.

What says the Hive Mind?:drinks:

[BK7saum]

Sometimes max pressures with cast bullets seem to be set because of limits on alloy to handle the pressure. I dont think in those instances it has anything to do with the powder, firearm, saami limits, etc.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Sometimes max pressures with cast bullets seem to be set because of limits on alloy to handle the pressure. I dont think in those instances it has anything to do with the powder, firearm, saami limits, etc.

Agreed. No point publishing data that has no hope of shooting well. In 308, 3006, and 358 Win, accuracy has gone south for me, albeit with softer alloys, well below the published maxes of 2400. You might be able get there with harder alloys.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

What are the characteristics of 2400 that are causing Lyman to put their max loads where they do?
In general, Lyman tells you why at the beginning of the rifle data section.
"Max load listings are dependent on a number of criteria beyond average pressures of the loads. Ballistics must be uniform."
...They go on to list half a dozen other reasons and conclude with, and many other reasons.

While I haven't heard of, or experienced, any characteristics of 2400 that should be considered when going above Lyman's Max load data, but remaining under Max SAAMI pressure ...I would have to assume the obvious, and that is the first thing Lyman mentioned, and is likely the most common reason Lyman stopped short, in any of their rifle data.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I would suggest searching the internet for pressure problems of Alliant 2400. We know there can be some issues with H110 and Blue dot and Lilgun...and those issues are easily found through searching. Although, if it's common enough, someone here will chime in with some info.

maybe these 2 threads will help you?

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?207698-Alliant-2400-ideal-pressure-range

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?142592-30-30-2400-amp-a-Dacron-Filler

[Hamish]

2400 works best in small cases with maximum fill. It acts a little hinky in big cases and minimal fill.

[Larry Gibson]

Lyman's C.U.P. listed pressures are older measurements, sometimes from many years ago. Lyman's psi measurements are of recent transducer or strain gauge measurements. Also, there is little or no correlation between C.U.P. measurements with one bullet and PSI measurements with another bullet. Two completely different animals or "apples to oranges".

If 500 yards is your goal, I believe you have much better luck developing a suitable load with the 311299 using a medium burning powder. For years I've used the 311299 in '06s (M1903s mostly) loading them over 4895 with a dacron filler to 1940 fps +/-.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I had very good results myself w/ the 311291 w/ 32 gr Surplus 4895 (mine had velocities gr -gr same as IMR 4895 that I used to have), and 311644 w/ 26.5 S4895. Me, I wanted presures in the 30K-ish range, and these worked well. Shot some at 100, mostly 50 at the time, and the 311291 stated would produce 5 shot one hole groups at 50 yd. Mostly I think at the time I used F210.
Now, I would use 311291 w/ 16 gr of 2400 & WLP, but that probably is lacking for 500 yds.

[Ford SD]

Not my first rodeo; not afraid to cautiously work "off the reservation" in load development. I know how to not blow myself up, so we can withhold the "you'll shoot your eye out kid" replies.

The game plan is to work up a long range (500+ yards) load in .30-06 using NOE's 311299 GC clone. 2400 is on hand in quantity and been rejected for my pistol applications, but it's a good fit for cast in rifles and it's not doing anything else...

My Question to you is

1) Why 311299 are you
Hunting
paper punching
Hitting Steel
is it a mould you have ?

if for theory Max velocity is 2000 fps for every bullet from 100 g to 200g

and for 500 yds if you are target shooting would not the best BC cast bullet be the one to pick ?

BTW I like the 311299 :)

[samari46]

I shoot Lyman's 314299 cast of wheel weights with 2% tin. 20.0 grains IMR 4759. Been doing this for years. Judging from the appearance of the fired primers, no way is this load approaching 50,000 psi. Brass does not even show a case head bulge where the tapered case walls get near the solid portion of the case head. Estimated velocity is approximately 1600-1700 feet per second. Frank

[Bigslug]

My Question to you is

1) Why 311299 are you
Hunting
paper punching
Hitting Steel
is it a mould you have ?

if for theory Max velocity is 2000 fps for every bullet from 100 g to 200g

and for 500 yds if you are target shooting would not the best BC cast bullet be the one to pick ?

BTW I like the 311299 :)

It fits the "standard" .300 bore / .308 groove barrels well, and has been our accuracy with minimal effort bullet thus far. 200 to 220 grains at something slightly above 2000 fps nicely duplicates the round nose service ammo of the pre-spitzer era, and that speed also happens to be within the limitations of non-jacketed pills.

They're cast bullets - compared to the Sierras and Bergers I used to shoot, the B.C.'s ALL suck.;)

The mission here: My Dad and I have found a place where we can open up our distances. We took the reloading of jacketed to a pretty high level of precision 20-30 years ago when we were competing in Highpower. Since then, the interest has moved more in the direction of the buffalo rifles for him, and the surplus bolt guns for me. We have four .30-06's with dimensionally the same chamber; one of which is the CZ-550 that I used to hunt with before I switched to stainless/synthetic. That one's been bedded, free-floated, and is a proven shooter, so it's going to be the educational test bed for the hard learning of distance with cast. Those lessons will then get applied to the cruder systems.

2400 seemed a natural because it does have a following for use in the milsurp family of cartridges, albeit at a slightly lower level of intensity than I have in mind. There's other things I could use, but my main point of curiosity is if it's likely to fight me going higher up the ladder.

[Ford SD]

From the Lyman #4

Accurate 5744 Powder , Will get you a Hair Faster than 2400 at a lower Pressure.

Would Possibly make your brass last longer

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip >>>

the hard learning of distance with cast.
There are a hundred threads about getting good results with cast at Jacketed velocities. Maybe you can glean some hints tips tricks from them. Here is a couple.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?33950-Jacketed-Velocity-with-Cast-Bullets

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?296690-Stock-Rifle-HV-quot-HOW-quot

[Bigslug]

It seems that my duty to pee on the electric fence is clear.:lol:

Again, this is a mission to discover what 2400 can (or can't) do. I can explore / have explored 5744, 4895, Varget, etc..., but that's not why I'm here. I have a stash of 2400 and it's been a dud for my particular handgun goals (Unique better for my chosen velocity ranges), so it's currently in search of a home. It's "unburnt granules" tendency, even in a K-Hornet rifle, has me thinking a large rifle primer is what the stuff wants.

Got to looking further in Lyman #50, and they're maxing out 2400 with the same 311299 bullet at 24 grains / 1995fps / and 43,700psi - for the .308 Winchester. It may just be happier in a smaller case, but it seems fertile ground for the experimentation. If it can get me consistent speeds and groups around 2000-2100 fps, I'll be a happy guy.

Guess I'll cue up Fleetwood Mac's Go Your Own Way and find out.;)

[rintinglen]

With the 311-290, I loaded it over 27 grains of 2400, for just over 2000 FPS from a 22 inch BBL. Accuracy was only so-so, but with 20 grains of 2400 it was very good.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I was just shooting some 2400 in my 45-70, 3 deg. out with a breeze. A 405 grain boolit over 24 grains and my chrono was telling me 1430 ish. Not sure if i believe that, perhaps the cold was affecting the battery? 2400 is my favorite with cast in 30-30 and .308, but i only push the gc boolits into the 1700 range with #2 alloy.

[Larry Gibson]

It seems that my duty to pee on the electric fence is clear.:lol:

Again, this is a mission to discover what 2400 can (or can't) do. I can explore / have explored 5744, 4895, Varget, etc..., but that's not why I'm here. I have a stash of 2400 and it's been a dud for my particular handgun goals (Unique better for my chosen velocity ranges), so it's currently in search of a home. It's "unburnt granules" tendency, even in a K-Hornet rifle, has me thinking a large rifle primer is what the stuff wants.

Got to looking further in Lyman #50, and they're maxing out 2400 with the same 311299 bullet at 24 grains / 1995fps / and 43,700psi - for the .308 Winchester. ]It may just be happier in a smaller case, but it seems fertile ground for the experimentation. [COLOR="#FF0000"If it can get me consistent speeds and groups around 2000-2100 fps, I'll be a happy guy.[/COLOR]

Guess I'll cue up Fleetwood Mac's Go Your Own Way and find out.;)

Good luck with that.......

[Char-Gar]

I had had very good results with 2400 in cast bullet rifles shooting for many years. 16-18 grains in the 30-06 and 14-16 grains in the 30-30. Now where near giving pressure problems.

[Char-Gar]

I had had very good results with 2400 in cast bullet rifles shooting for many years. 16-18 grains in the 30-06 and 14-16 grains in the 30-30. Now where near giving pressure problems. Velocities run in the 1.6 to 1.9 fps range depending on bullet weight etc. etc. Gas check bullets of course.

[Rcmaveric]

I love 2400 for middle ground say 100 yard work and velocities in the 1800 +/- in large cases. Works great in my 3030 though for full power. I find it excells more in my small riffle cases.

2400 is my all around powder. Works good in everything. But gets inaccurate if I try and push it hard.

For hunting and 200 yard work i like slower powders 4198 or Reloader 7. I got a jug of Buffalo Bore that needs experimenting.

I am in the school of thought of gently pushing the bullet up the speed to prevent deformation and increase theoretical accuracy. My personal experiences reflect that.

2400 is a good choice though for accurate 100 yard shooting.


As to your question. Internal ballastics and lead shear and obturation characteristics. Mostly hypothetical and postulated by us not so learned folk. But imagine whats happening to your soft lead bullet when its kicked in pants by 30k hot gass. Why doesnt it melt or turn to putty in the barrel. Whith out a jacket its impressive it doesnt just turn into skid mark in the barrel. Almost like God ment for it to be shot. So st what point does the lead give and skip lands or deform? Thats why your presssures are lower than the gun is rated. Its what pressure it was acurrate.

[Rcmaveric]

Lol, imagine the look on that bullets face when it gets smacked so hard it breaks the sound barrier in nano seconds.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[NY_Treeguy]

Ideal #38 (1951) shows 22.0 of 2400 under the 308284 (207 gn) cast 1750 fps.

Lyman#3 (1980) shows 19.0 of 2400 under the 308284 (207 gn) cast 1562 fps, 23400 CUP; 26.5, 1968 fps, 35000 CUP.

Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets (1958) shows 13.0 of 2400 under 311299 at 1425, Max of 24.0 at 2060.

Lyman 1958 also states that H-240 and 2400 are interchangeable.

That's all I got. Hope it helps or at least doesn't make things worse.

[pworley1]

With my experience using 2400 in larger cases, I always started losing accuracy long before I would have any pressure problems.

[Savvy Jack]

1934 Hercules 2400 Booklet

295283

[Kosh75287]

I remember reading of an old "armoury load" that consisted of 16.0/2400/ over 150 gr. cast. I think it was for 200 yard training of reserve troops. There's an art to making large capacity cases run well on very fast-burning rifle powders, like 2400, and I've never mastered it.
If memory serves, IMR-3031 was about the fastest-burning rifle propellant that gave full performance in .30-06 (though perhaps not with cast projectiles as heavy as yours). Consult Hodgdon before you try this, but I'D try to locate some IMR-3031 or any propellant with approximately that burn speed, find the STARTING load for projectiles weighing near what your NOE #311299 does, load 5 or 10 of those, and test fire them. Depending on results, I'd then work DOWNward, in 0.5-1.0 gr. increments, until you get velocity and accuracy that works for you.
THESE days, I know the difficulty and expense associated with finding and buying another powder for just one or a few projects, but I don't see you getting much in the way of good results with 2400 in .30-06. If your were trying this with a .45-70, which has a capacity (and little else) very similar to the .30-06, I'D expect you to be in good territory. I guess bottle-necking a case introduces a way-different set of dynamics to the way that fast-burning propellants ignite in big cases.

[farmbif]

I'm no expert but from the limited experience I have from trying different things. ive had good luck with decent accuracy in 30-06 311299 using slower powders, 4198, 8208, 4895.

[243winxb]

2400-24 grs- 173 gr cast GC, 30-06 . Better accuracy with IMR 4895 reduced.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

1934 Hercules 2400 Booklet

295283

That’s cool! Several folks are having good luck with Blue Dot and reduced jacketed loads. Haven’t heard much about higher pressure 2400 and jacketed (just Ed’s 16gr load), wonder if it works just as well or even better.

[725]

Paco Kelly's load of 22 gr. @ 2400 pushing a 400ish grain Boolits is wonderful in the .458 WM.

[centershot]

2400 is a very useful powder in the 30-06 and other 7-8mm cartridges. The following link is a sticky in the Military Rifles section. The author, C. E. Harris, is known as Outpost 75 here, IIRC.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

[todd9.3x57]

i use 2400 in my 35/30 and 444 marlin, but i use a tuft of dacron. it is more accurate with dacron.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

2400 works best in small cases with maximum fill. It acts a little hinky in big cases and minimal fill.

Can you define “hinky”? Is that erratic ignition, pressure spikes, or something else?

[Savvy Jack]

That’s cool! Several folks are having good luck with Blue Dot and reduced jacketed loads. Haven’t heard much about higher pressure 2400 and jacketed (just Ed’s 16gr load), wonder if it works just as well or even better.

Certainly would be interesting to see the results. Always did like the 30-06, wish I still had my 742.

[TurnipEaterDown]

It was pretty easy for me to find good results w/ 30-06 & 2400.
Old (very nicely) sporterized Springfield A3.
I didn't dive these very hard at all, and started with the 'military case, 16 gr 2400, normal weight bullet' generic approach.

30-06
183 gr Sized .310" (as cast, lubed, checked) LYMAN 311291, Alliant 2400, F210 primer, seated w/ bottom of 1st riding band just below mouth (neck covers grease groove)
(22 BHN w/ LBT tester)

The multiple groups at 17.4 were the verification of group sizes for what I selected as a useful load for me.

15.3 gr 1.625" (5/5) 1.1875 (4/5) 100 yd
16 gr 1.875" (5/5) 1.625 (4/5) 100 yd
16.7 gr 2.0" (5/5) 0.875 (4/5) 100 yd
17.4 gr 1.375" (5/5) 0.75 (4/5) 100 yd
17.4 gr 1.375" (5/5) 1.375 (4/5)* 100 yd * -- Lost stick on 1" aim point after shot #2, aimed on larger (~3") black circle
17.4 gr 3.125 (10/10), 2.375" (8/10) 1.125 (best 5) 100 yd
18 gr 1.625" (5/5) 1.2 (4/5)* 100 yd * -- 3 touching

[robg]

18gn 2400 works well in my 308 no fillers needed. in my 45-70 i use 22gn with 350 gn boolit but use a bit of toilet paper to keep powder next to the primer .without the filler got a lot of speed difference and a few hang fires.

[Savvy Jack]

1937 data for a 35 Remington
296030