LEE 30-40 Krag Dies ??

[Hootmix]

Just got a set of LEE Pacesetter Dies (3die set) for my 30-40 Krag, i can"t expand the neck (???) to start my bullet, did i miss something? There is a factory crimp die, but no (separate) expander If the sizer& de-caping die is supposed to expand the neck, it ain't working. Bullets are .309- .311 w/ GC.


coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[Bakebfr480]

Do what I did and buy a Lee Universal expander die!

[GBertolet]

You need either the Lyman M, 30 long, expander die, or the Lee universal neck flairing die. The Lyman is the better of the two, as it expandes the diameter of the neck, as well as flairing, which is better for cast bullets. The Lee only flairs the case mouth. I have two Krags, and have experience loading for them.

[Hootmix]

Thank you, "Gentlemen" that's the info i am looking for. GB do i need to order by specific Dia.? Or does the M 30 long cover them all?

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[GBertolet]

There is a 30 short and a 30 long. The 30 long fits the Krag, as well as any 30 caliber cartridge of similar length or longer.

[Hootmix]

Thank you, GB, will be on it tomorrow. I will have more questions; this is a new cartridge for me.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[megasupermagnum]

If you have a set of dies for a 32 S&W, 32 ACP, 30 carbine, or anything else like that, those expanders work too.

[Texas by God]

I'm using Lee dies to load .308" jacketed and .309" cast for my 30-40 Krag. I just chamfer the inside of the case neck and it works perfectly.

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[cwtebay]

I believe that I have the same die set as well. I personally make sure I have a righteous chamfer before beginning and load away. I would imagine that I have put 2500 rounds through mine with both cast and jacketed with no issues nor additional dies.

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[uscra112]

NOE Moulds make a family of neck expanders that fit into the misnamed Lee Universal Expander die. Work better than the M-die IMHO, and will be cheaper and more likely to be in stock. Using an expander meant for metal patched bullets is not optimum for loading cast.

[1hole]

Just got a set of LEE Pacesetter Dies (3die set) for my 30-40 Krag, i can"t expand the neck (???) to start my bullet, did i miss something? There is a factory crimp die, but no (separate) expander If the sizer& de-caping die is supposed to expand the neck, it ain't working.

Not sure I understand what you mean,

The shank of Lee's decapping stem includes the proper expander for the cartridge. No one's decapper-expander is going to expand the case mouths for easy bullet entrance; that's flaring (or "belling") and it takes a separate tool.

Lee has misnamed their Universal Expanding Die, it's simply a flaring die with a cone shaped plug that covers the normal full range of case mouths. If you want to flare that's the right die to add to your set.

Lyman's "M" die is excellent for all cartridges and bullet types but they are limited to a single neck diameter.

Actually, the only difference between Lyman's "long" and "short" M dies is the length of the expander stem.

I prefer to buy M dies with the "short" case stems because they work fine on long cartridges too but the reverse isn't always true; my .30 Short M die works on everything from .30 Carbine to .300 WinMag.

[zarrinvz24]

Another option is to just use a set of needle nose pliers. Insert the nose and twist with gentle pressure. Not hard to do at all.

[uscra112]

Another option is to just use a set of needle nose pliers. Insert the nose and twist with gentle pressure. Not hard to do at all.

Urk!!!!! What the OP needs is not to simply flare the case mouth.

The standard expander stem supplied with the Lee die leaves the neck too small for a cast bullet. They assume you're loading jacketed bullets which need a neck ID small enough to provide adequate bullet pull for a .308 bullet. Cramming a cast bullet into such an undersized neck squeezes the bullet down a couple of thou, just as if you'd run it through a sizing die. Not good.

Furthermore, Krag barrels are not all the same. The OP's bullets may need to run anything from .309 to .313 to properly fit. His necks should be expanded to be no more than .001 under his optimum bullet size. This is where the Lyman M die falls down. The available range of mandrel sizes is too limited.

Long ago I started making my own custom mandrels for the M die. All well and good if you've got a lathe. I no longer do this. NOE has such a range of mandrel sizes available, at such cheap prices, that I can't compete even though my labor is free.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-rifle/

The expander mandrel in the M die system can come loose from the stem, throwing the adjustment off. I recently spoiled some laboriously converted .25 Stevens cases when this happened to me. The NOE system cannot lose adjustment.

[Hootmix]

Expander plug is under control. I will be using Lyman 311466, what will be the shortest OAL w/ this bullet? The Lyman 49th. show's 3.089 max. OAL, looking at the bullet next to the case, looks like the GC & 2 lube groves is all that hold the bullet. Just don't seem like enough to me.

need more coffee, Hootmix.

[uscra112]

311466 is a "bore rider" design. That long nose should cast so that it kisses the tops of the lands. That keeps it straight. Can be very accurate if it fits the gun properly. Seat it with most of that nose exposed. Deeper only if there is a magazine length issue.

[fatnhappy]

Expander plug is under control. I will be using Lyman 311466, what will be the shortest OAL w/ this bullet? The Lyman 49th. show's 3.089 max. OAL, looking at the bullet next to the case, looks like the GC & 2 lube groves is all that hold the bullet. Just don't seem like enough to me.

need more coffee, Hootmix.

The 311284 was literally designed specifically for the krag. So far it's been exemplary in my krag as has it's litter mate the 311290.
I use the 311466 in the shorter necked .300 savage. I'm not certain I could even get it to touch the lands in my krag.

YMMV

[Maven]

No! Ly. #311466 is a Guy Loverin design, not a bore rider. However, it still needs to be sized to fit the throat/bbl. and seated long enough to be engraved by the lands, but not have the CB stuck in the bbl. if you need to eject a round. You were probably thinking of #311284.

[uscra112]

311466 is a "bore rider" design. That long nose should cast so that it kisses the tops of the lands. That keeps it straight. Can be very accurate if it fits the gun properly. Seat it with most of that nose exposed. Deeper only if there is a magazine length issue.

I have to walk back the cat on the above. The 311466 is a Loverin design with lube grooves end to end. Not a bore rider. I was thinking of the 311299. Age-related brain fade.

[1hole]

....The standard expander stem supplied with the Lee die leaves the neck too small for a cast bullet. They assume you're loading jacketed bullets which need a neck ID small enough to provide adequate bullet pull for a .308 bullet.

That's true but I don't know why you speak as tho Lee is unique about that.

All standard dies expand necks for proper diameter of the normal bullets for their caliber because the die makers (rightly) assume most will indeed be used for loading jacketed bullets. Proof of that is we have several jacketed bullet makers but we have very few cast bullet makers and they are quite small. ???

As an aside, maybe I'm not doing something right but I have never seen any measurable accuracy advantage to justify using much oversized cast bullets in anything. So, my normal dies - including a few Lee's - that work for jacketed bullets also work fine for cast boolits in my firearms.

Finally, I sure like using Lee's Collet Neck Sizer dies for cast rifle stuff. The chamber pressure of cast ammo is so low that the case bodies rarely need sizing and the necks get worked so little by the Collet Sizer that they usually last a looong time, even without annealing!

[GBertolet]

I use the .303 Lee collet sizer for my Krags. I use .311-.312 bullets, which works out perfect. I can load many times before FL sizing is required.

[1hole]

I use the .303 Lee collet sizer for my Krags. I use .311-.312 bullets, which works out perfect. I can load many times before FL sizing is required.

I only have one lever action centerfire rifle, a 336 in .35 Remington I got used in 1978; I love it, deer don't. It's a hunting rifles, not for targets or plinking, so I don't load a lot for it. I got three boxes of Remington ammo for it, 60 rounds and still have most of them.

After shooting most of them up I evened the case lengths and started reloading them. After developing a full power 200 gr. RNCL load I soon had 60 rounds flying at 2,075 +/- fps that would consistently go into 1 1/2" at 100 yards. I love that ugly bullet but Rem has discontinued selling it as a component (I hate Remington). Hornady's 200 gr. RN actually shoots just as well but it sure doesn't expand as well.

Before each season starts, I clean the bore and fire a few rounds to confirm zero and then get one or two deer (one shot each). When I'm about out of ammo I'll refill the empties and keep going. I have now reloaded them maybe ten times each, only sizing with Lee's great little Collet Neck die and their excellent Factory Crimp Die. The still remaining cartridges (I've lost a few of those cases in the woods) in their now ragged ol' green and yellow boxes still feed and chamber slick as a greasy eel; no case has yet needed trimming and none of them have yet split.

I can't see how a .30-30 would be any different but I must be doing something wrong because all of the web experts say not to reload for lever guns exactly the way I always do! :)

[Hootmix]

UPDATE,,,,,, so a shooter called and said he had some "old" 30-40 Krag ammo, loaded, and a small box of "old" cast bullets, had no need for um'. The loaded rds. say "SUPER_X ", they have rounded primers, the bullets stick out of the case about 1/4"(ya'll tell me). The cast bullets look like the 311291, only you can tell they have been sized down to .309+-, and weighed between 188.8 to 192.0+ So, i loaded (10 rds.) of the cast bullets (w/ my homemade neck expander) and per Lyman 49th. w/ 19gns. of H-4198 to OAL of 2.925. They shot "round holes" at 50yds. My first time to shoot a 30-40, pretty darn nice, and didn't blow up my friend's gun. "BUT" the bullets didn't seat to the crimping grove, i also loaded 2 rds. of some 311466's (@161gns.) @ 3.025 & 3rds @ 2.095, all 4rds. had grease grooves exposed, "question", did i seat my rds. wrong or is this normal (pics. would help).
coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[Drydock]

What I did: Bought a Lee 45 Colt powder thru die. Bought a Lee .30 carbine powder thru die. Put the carbine guts in the Colt body. Screw into press just far enough to do the job. Now I have a powder thru expander/flare die for my Krag cast bullet loads.

[Hootmix]

Hey, Drydock, put mine in a Lee 40-60 pour thru, now to make a neck resizer to fit same.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[uscra112]

I've made a couple of neck sizers on the lathe to go into the Lee Universal Expander body. But you'd be better off with the Lee collet die for the .32-40.

Don't worry about damaging your friend's rifle, so long as you are obsessive about avoiding double charges. The Krag was built for loads in the 45kpsi range. Shooting cast, even the really heavy ones, your loads should not run more than about 30kpsi. Keep your muzzle velocities under 1800 fps and don't use fast pistol powders.

[Hootmix]

ucra112, sent PM.

Hootmix.

[todd9.3x57]

UPDATE,,,,,, so a shooter called and said he had some "old" 30-40 Krag ammo, loaded, and a small box of "old" cast bullets, had no need for um'. The loaded rds. say "SUPER_X ", they have rounded primers, the bullets stick out of the case about 1/4"(ya'll tell me). The cast bullets look like the 311291, only you can tell they have been sized down to .309+-, and weighed between 188.8 to 192.0+ So, i loaded (10 rds.) of the cast bullets (w/ my homemade neck expander) and per Lyman 49th. w/ 19gns. of H-4198 to OAL of 2.925. They shot "round holes" at 50yds. My first time to shoot a 30-40, pretty darn nice, and didn't blow up my friend's gun. "BUT" the bullets didn't seat to the crimping grove, i also loaded 2 rds. of some 311466's (@161gns.) @ 3.025 & 3rds @ 2.095, all 4rds. had grease grooves exposed, "question", did i seat my rds. wrong or is this normal (pics. would help).
coffee's ready, Hootmix.



in my krag i can set my boolits into the chamber and then put a case in it and it still can't touch the lands. i use a 165gr ranch dog with h4198 going 1926fps with the boolit set in the crimping groove. it averages about 1 1/2+/-" at 100 yards.

[Hootmix]

todd9, i could live w/ that, if i could see that far!!!!! I do like this 311291, and if i had a mould i believe i can throw more evenly case weights than what i'v got (but free is good). So, you think should just load down to the crimping grove?

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

[uscra112]

todd9, i could live w/ that, if i could see that far!!!!! I do like this 311291, and if i had a mould i believe i can throw more evenly case weights than what i'v got (but free is good). So, you think should just load down to the crimping grove?

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

Absolutely. The pressure difference will be negligible.

[Texas by God]

I size short of full length as seen by the smoked and sized case on the left. Not the same bullet you mention, but I seat the Lee 170 to the crimp groove but never crimp it. On the right is a Hornady 220 gr RN seated to magazine length. My barrel is a new Pac-Nor so I get by with .309" sizing.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220119/e0282a6abdd7363956eac04acc7ad7dc.jpg

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[todd9.3x57]

todd9, i could live w/ that, if i could see that far!!!!! I do like this 311291, and if i had a mould i believe i can throw more evenly case weights than what i'v got (but free is good). So, you think should just load down to the crimping grove?

coffee's ready, Hootmix.


yep!!!

i don't see well anymore ( i have glasses), so 3/4 - 1 1/4" at 100 yards are rare. heck, i would do 3 - 4" at 150 yards and still get my deer.

i shoot deer out to a whopping 60 or so yards. [smilie=l:

[gwpercle]

Thank you, GB, will be on it tomorrow. I will have more questions; this is a new cartridge for me.

coffee's ready, Hootmix.

Just about all dies , except for those marketed as "Cowboy Dies" will be set up to load J-word bullets . The Lyman M-Die is made for loading the larger softer cast boolts and is a seperate item to buy .
But Lee makes a Universal Case Expanding Die , in truth it only flares the mouth but sometimes that's all you need especially with a gas checked boolit ... and NOE sells expander plugs that expand just like an M-Die that can be used in the Lee Universal Case Expander Die ... NOE's expanders are much cheaper than a Lyman M-Die and come in many more sizes .
You just need some kind of neck flare / M-Die / NOE Expander to easily load cast .
Years ago I bought a 30 cal M-Die for 30-30 but since that time have discovered first Lee Universal Expander (Okay) and then the NOE expander inserts for the Lee Universal (best) ... NOE even sells the Lee Universal Expanding Die if you want to order NOE exp. plugs and the die all at once .
Check for availability & price at the shop . www.noebulletmoulds.com
Gary

[uscra112]

The URL given in my post #13 will get you closer. NOE's site isn't as easy to navigate as it could be.

[catmandu]

I agree with the NOE expanders, once you start you will love them. They go into a Lee Universal expander die and at $7.50 allow you to experiment with changing neck tension. Just be sure and read up on how to select the right one. It’s like an M die but you only need to change the expander to try a different tension so it’s cheaper.

Paul in WNY