Loads for the 38 S&W Victory Model

[JoeJames]

I did some swapping and few months ago and came up with 38S&W Victory Model in pretty good shape. I was already set up to reload for 38S&W, and worked up some loads with Speer 148 grain hollow base wadcutters with 2.3 grains of Bullseye. Of course the Victory has fixed sights. I tried it with the aforementioned loads, and it shot about 4 to 5 inches low at 15 yards. It appears the Victory was certainly regulated for the 200 grain bullet.

Finally I ordered some .361 200 grain cast round nose bullets from Matt’s Bullets and while waiting on them to come in I looked at my various reloading manuals including Hatcher’s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, Cartridges of the World, the Lee Manual, etc. All that included the 38S&W discussed loading it with 148 to 158 grain bullets. The recommended loads were normally 2.2 - 2.3 grains of Bullseye or 3.1 grains of Unique.

So, any recommended loads for the 200 grain bullet with one of the following types of pistol powder - Bullseye, Unique, or Win 231 (HP-38)? Naturally I will need loads that shoot to point of aim with the fixed sight Victory.

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[Thumbcocker]

If it was used in the US it probably wasn't regulated for 200 grain boolits. If it has British proofs it probably was regulated for 200 grain boolits.

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[Outpost75]

The 200-grain bullets from Matt's will shoot to the sights and approximate Mk1 service velocity with 2.1-2.2 grains of Bullseye in .38 S&W brass. In .38 Special brass 3.2-3.3 grains of Bullseye will approximate the old Western Super Police load.

[JoeJames]

It has no proof marks, but (and I may be wrong) it is my understanding that some S&W Victory Models in 38/200 for British use were not marked with British Proof marks when in the UK, but were only so marked when imported back into the US. This one may have been returned by other means - poker game, etc.

[JoeJames]

The 200-grain bullets from Matt's will shoot to the sights and approximate Mk1 service velocity with 2.1-2.2 grains of Bullseye in .38 S&W brass. In .38 Special brass 3.2-3.3 grains of Bullseye will approximate the old Western Super Police load.Thanks for the information. I do have plenty of 38S&W brass. Just idly curious as to the velocity of the 200 grain loads. I expect around 650 fps or so. But I will chronograph them after I have loaded some up.

[Walks]

What Outpost75 said for M&P.

I use 1.6grs of Bullseye for My annual 10 shots from my old break top.

[georgerkahn]

I did some swapping and few months ago and came up with 38S&W Victory Model in pretty good shape. I was already set up to reload for 38S&W, and worked up some loads with Speer 148 grain hollow base wadcutters with 2.3 grains of Bullseye. Of course the Victory has fixed sights. I tried it with the aforementioned loads, and it shot about 4 to 5 inches low at 15 yards. It appears the Victory was certainly regulated for the 200 grain bullet.

Finally I ordered some .361 200 grain cast round nose bullets from Matt’s Bullets and while waiting on them to come in I looked at my various reloading manuals including Hatcher’s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, Cartridges of the World, the Lee Manual, etc. All that included the 38S&W discussed loading it with 148 to 158 grain bullets. The recommended loads were normally 2.2 - 2.3 grains of Bullseye or 3.1 grains of Unique.

So, any recommended loads for the 200 grain bullet with one of the following types of pistol powder - Bullseye, Unique, or Win 231 (HP-38)? Naturally I will need loads that shoot to point of aim with the fixed sight Victory.

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I have a similar revolver -- mine is in 670,000 serial number range, and still has faint "U S Gov... Property" on it. I purchased from Buffalo Arms their .361" 145 grain round nose 2-cavity mould, which approximates/duplicates original factory bullets for it. My regular load is 2.3 grains of Bullseye. 294463 This provides fairly small -- "acceptable accuracy" -- groups. Maybe (?) just my revolver, but with greater powder levels I experience leading... I have loaded as low as 2.0 grains, too, which work -- but again, for me/my revolver -- a good result came at the 2.3 grain level.
geo

[JoeJames]

Loads which shot way low at 15 yards.

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[smkummer]

One sometimes wonders during the war emergency if these guns were even shot at the factory for sighting in. My WW2 colt commando was stamped with a “L” instead of a “T”. Which supposedly means the sights were just lined up instead of targeted. It shot off to one side. I had to remove the barrel and trim some of the barrel shoulder to turn the barrel more and now it shoots to the sights. The easiest adjustment to fix on a fix sighted gun is if it shoots high, the front sight is then trimmed down a bit. If I recall, my WW2 victory 38 special shots close enough with 158 special loads.

Oops, I am wrong. It’s easy to fix a sight if the gun shoots LOW, not high. Thanks to the person who pointed this out to me.

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the information. I do have plenty of 38S&W brass. Just idly curious as to the velocity of the 200 grain loads. I expect around 650 fps or so. But I will chronograph them after I have loaded some up.

Velocity dependent upon barrel-cylinder gap as much as barrel length. Look for 620+/- 25 fps from a 5-inch barrel with gap 0.008", If gap is over 0.010" you may need to increase charge about 0.2 grain to avoid sticking a bullet in the barrel. With min. gap pass 0.003, hold 0.004" you will get 650+

[JoeJames]

Velocity dependent upon barrel-cylinder gap as much as barrel length. Look for 620+/- 25 fps from a 5-inch barrel with gap 0.008", If gap is over 0.010" you may need to increase charge about 0.2 grain to avoid sticking a bullet in the barrel. With min. gap pass 0.003, hold 0.004" you will get 650+

Thank goodness for Castboolits - that and the powder charge as previously stated are all I need to work up some 200 gr loads. Really is a dearth of information in the reloading manuals for shooting the 200 grain bullet in the 38S&W a/k/a 38/200. The only source I have found for it was in Cartridges of the World 6th Edition which stated for a 200 grain bullet the charge was 3,1 grains of Unique for 620 fps. For some reason I prefer Bullseye and I will start with 2.2 grains as suggested here.

[Thumbcocker]

Please post a range report when you get some loads assembled.

[JoeJames]

The 200-grain bullets from Matt's will shoot to the sights and approximate Mk1 service velocity with 2.1-2.2 grains of Bullseye in .38 S&W brass. In .38 Special brass 3.2-3.3 grains of Bullseye will approximate the old Western Super Police load.

Ok, I got some .361 200 grain lead round nose bullets in today from Matt's Bullets. Just wondering what your overall cartridge length you came up with using 38S&W brass? There are no crimp grooves on the bullets from Matt's.

[Outpost75]

1.25" with the NOE 364-204RN.

[ddixie884]

Thank goodness for Castboolits - that and the powder charge as previously stated are all I need to work up some 200 gr loads. Really is a dearth of information in the reloading manuals for shooting the 200 grain bullet in the 38S&W a/k/a 38/200. The only source I have found for it was in Cartridges of the World 6th Edition which stated for a 200 grain bullet the charge was 3,1 grains of Unique for 620 fps. For some reason I prefer Bullseye and I will start with 2.2 grains as suggested here.

Ker-Plunk. I'll bet if you shoot steel with that it will ring........

[JoeJames]

I posted the question of powder weight in the castboolit forum and got information that a Bullseye load of from 2.1 grains to 2.2 grains would approximate the old British 38/200 Mk1 load. I had tried shooting 148 grain hollow base wadcutters and 160 grain bevel base semi-wadcutters with abysmal results - all shot about 4 inches low from center of bull.

But after getting the 200 grain round nose bullets from Matt's Bullets on Thursday, I proceeded to load 20 rounds - about half with a 2.2 grain load and the other half with 2.3 grains, all with overall cartridge length of 1.25". I tried to allocate 2.3 gr to the top row and 2.2 to the second, but may have inadvertently put a 2.3 grain load in the second and it was second in that row. My right eye was not good yesterday so I asked my cousin to do the shooting at 15 yards. Upon reflection I think the Victory may have been regulated for 25 yards as most rounds were a bit high. The velocity was consistent with the 2.2 grain coming in at 614 fps, and the 2.3 grain load averaging 642 fps. I attribute the vertical string just to shooting and think that after shooting a few more they will normally end up 1 1/2 to 2 inches high at 15 yards, and possibly to point of aim at 25 yards. But we did not really do enough shooting to be sure of that. I do know that it appears this Victory Model was regulated for 200 grain bullets.

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[ddixie884]

Cool. Thanx for sharing this info........

[Outpost75]

Bravo Zulu! Agrees perfectly with my experience. Current issue of The Fouling Shot has a magnum opus on the .38 S&W. If you PM me with an email address where I can send the .pdf, I would be pleased to send you a copy.

[Thumbcocker]

Love it when an old gun speaks


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[JoeJames]

Love it when an old gun speaks


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Thanks, I guess I am kind of OCD on my guns. It has been an interesting project to get on the road to having it tolerably accurate. Further I just cannot abide having one around that does not have the right ammo; even though the 38S&W Victory would not be at the top of my list for home defense.

[Outpost75]

Replied to your PM. Enjoy.

[Thumbcocker]

I ain't volunteering to catch those boolits at 25 yards.

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[JoeJames]

Interesting information shown below from Outpost75. I was assuming the Victory Model was regulated to shoot to 15 yards. After the small amount of data as shown on my targets, it was still shooting a bit high at 15 yards. The middle hole on both was @2" high. I know it is a great leap to work from that, but I think that per his information and given the rainbow trajectory of the 200 grain bullet zipping along at 642 fps a two inch high hit at 15 yards would possibly work out to target center more or less at 20 yards. Just my theory anyhow. I will of course do some shooting at 20 yards to verify my great big guess.

Normal factory regulation during WW2 era was fired indoors at 20 yards aiming at a 2-inch diameter aiming black surrounded by a 3-inch circle drawn tangent to the aiming point at 6:00.
Four out of six shots had to strike within the 3-inch circle with the ammunition provided as government furnished material. The maximum diagonal of six shots could not exceed 4 inches.

[Outpost75]

FYI the above info from the late Archie Dubia at the S&W factory, who targeted Victory revolvers as a young man. Same target was used post-WW2 for normal production of cop revolvers. When I was at Ruger in the 1980s the same roll targets were used for the India order and for normal commercial production of fixed sight revolvers.

A 20-yard distance was long standard for indoor test tubes at both S&W and Colt.

[RKJ]

Further I just cannot abide having one around that does not have the right ammo; even though the 38S&W Victory would not be at the top of my list for home defense.

It would be better than a sharp stick and harsh words though. :)

[JoeJames]

My other S&W Victory in 38 Special shoots to point of aim at 15 yards with 148 gr wadcutters and 160 gr semi-wadcutters, but comparatively speaking it shoots flatter.

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