Two old friends going down the road

[dverna]

My buddy wants to buy my last two .45 ACP’s. A Kimber Team Match and Kimber Ultra CDP Custom.

Years ago, the Ultra was my carry gun. The Team Match became a range toy once I got the Ultra.

After I got past my gun snob phase, it was evident the Tupperware Glock was a better combat gun. I know many will not agree with that, oh well. Been carrying either the Glock or Kahr for a long time and never wanted to switch back.

One last cleaning and off they go.

Have a few thousand primers to get rid of too.

[AnthonyB]

“…last two 45 ACP’s” and “better combat gun” gun in one thread on THIS board?

Hope someone else responds before my post is published - I don’t want to get hit by the lightning when it strikes!
Tony

[Finster101]

Damn Don, you been drinkin 'and itchin' for a fight?

[cwtebay]

I do believe that Anthony B should post his before I offer my opinion.

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[johniv]

It’s a joke. Right?

[megasupermagnum]

Well if you don't shoot in competitions, hunt with handguns, and don't shoot a lot of large primer stuff, then sure, I can get behind that. I think you should try a modern non-1911 type gun before writing off the 45 acp completely though. A FN FNX 45 with the 15 round magazine is one heck of a machine.

[dverna]

I had a third Kimber and two Clark’s. Those left years ago. Kept the last two 1911’s just in case I had seller regret. I did not leave the 1911 platform overnight or without a lot of thought.

I had no love for Glocks until I bought my first. I shoot the 1911 better, but smaller groups are not the only factor in a gun for social work. Some people cannot shoot a Glock but I can.

What tipped the scale for me were two things. The first was taking the Front Sight course. I used the Glock and earned Distinguished rating the first time through. There were three others in the class who achieved that level, and none used 1911’s. The second factor was talking to a guy who does protective work with his wife...they both use Glocks.

In the end, all that matters is using what puts holes into the bad guy as quickly and accurately as possible. For me that is the Glock. YMMV.

BTW, our favorite fun CF pistols are S&W 686+ revolvers. We have not shot 1911’s for over 5 years.

[Catshooter]

The 1911 can be a great platform, (depending on who made it) but it's day as the top combat pistol is long past. Glocks are hard to beat in that role.

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

[megasupermagnum]

The 1911 can be a great platform, (depending on who made it) but it's day as the top combat pistol is long past. Glocks are hard to beat in that role.

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

I never try to argue with people in situations like dverna because to be completely honest, I think the 1911 was one of John Brownings worst designs. Compared to his rifles and shotguns, especially the auto-5, and machine guns like a BAR (which I consider his best design), or even his later pistol the Hi-Power, the 1911 is not that spectacular. It obviously works well, but from a mechanical/manufacturing point of view it has real faults.

[txbirdman]

Started out shooting S&W revolvers. Still have several but seldom shoot them. My first center fire auto was a Colt Government model. I’ve owned several Colts (nothing else) over the last 40 years but am now down to a single 1970’s vintage Combat Commander. I also own a Glock 19 and Sig P365 which are my main carry guns. I’ve done everything I can to get proficient with the Glock but it just doesn’t work well for me. I tend to push all my shots left unless I have the joint of my trigger finger in the center of the G19’s trigger ( I’ve trained to put the pad there with all other handguns). I have toyed with the ideal of buying a Glock 48 as I believe with it’s thinner grip frame it would be better suited to my ingrained technique. These days my main interest is long range rifle shoot though so I probably will never follow through and buy one.

[45DUDE]

If I sold MY Kimber Team Match I would be down to 13 1911's and that is a bad #.

[dverna]

If I sold MY Kimber Team Match I would be down to 13 1911's and that is a bad #.

Now that made me smile. It is a great pistol....but no Clark...lol.

[Thumbcocker]

Dverna is an adult and an experienced shooter. A sd pistol is a very personal choice. Go with what suits you.

[45DUDE]

Now that made me smile. It is a great pistol....but no Clark...lol.

Got Clarks also:smile: When I first got the Kimber the groups were not good as expected but the more I shot it after about 250 rounds it came around to my liking without throwing fliers. It will shoot 245 lead through 185 grain ball and button nose without a problem. Some guys at the range have Glocks that shoot 21 rounds without a problem. I may get one just for drill but damn they are ugly. Sig looks a lot better.

[jakharath]

I'm a 45ACP/1911 guy. 45 ACP - where old fat and slow gets the job done. For personal protection, 9 rounds is enough most of the time. Most self defense shootings average 4 rounds.

That being said, if I was in a line of work where there might be a gunfight, I'd want something that held more rounds. And that something wouldn't be a 2011 (double stack 1911). They feel wrong.

[Skipper]

Well, you know, the 1911 is sort of like Glock....but for men.

[Plate plinker]

Don does your old Team Match have the external extractor? Just curious, I have a TM II that does and I wish it did not because those extractors are hard to come by.

[dverna]

Don does your old Team Match have the external extractor? Just curious, I have a TM II that does and I wish it did not because those extractors are hard to come by.

Yes, mine has the external extractor.

[dverna]

Got Clarks also:smile: When I first got the Kimber the groups were not good as expected but the more I shot it after about 250 rounds it came around to my liking without throwing fliers. It will shoot 245 lead through 185 grain ball and button nose without a problem. Some guys at the range have Glocks that shoot 21 rounds without a problem. I may get one just for drill but damn they are ugly. Sig looks a lot better.

45Dude,

I had no use for Glocks having come up through Bullseye where 1911's ruled the roost. I had both a .38 and .45 Clark...just amazing accuracy. It would be tough for a Glock to shoot a 20 yard group as small as a Clark at 50 yards.

I bought my first Glock (G22) for ****s and giggles to see what the hype was all about. NEVER expected to switch platforms as I was heavily invested in 1911's. Things I liked about the Glock:

It works
It is simple.
It is easy to fix if it does not work.
It has no safety
I holds twice the rounds of a 1911. No need to carry a spare mag.
By buying a 9mm barrel and mags I can switch the G22 from .40 to 9mm in less than 5 minutes. Can do that for .357 Sig but I do not shoot .357 Sig.

I have heard some folks raised on 1911's cannot shoot Glocks well. I did not experience that. Yes, the 1911's I had were higher end and had great triggers, and I shot better with the 1911's but not that much better. Does is really matter if you are putting 2" groups on CM at 10 yards or 3" groups?

If I were you, I would buy an LEO trade-in G22. Add about $100 for a 9mm barrel and some mags and you are set to go to try the platform out without a large investment and you can get all your money out if you do not like it. That will let you try both .40 and 9mm and see what works best for you.

It took me about 500 rounds to get used to the "mushy" Glock trigger. There are aftermarket kits to improve the Glock trigger and for a competition gun that is something to consider. Buy a spare set if you do that. The gentleman who uses his Glock for work told me a sad story. One of his friends put an after market trigger kit into his G22 and it failed during a gun fight. His buddy died when the trigger failed.

[Jim22]

I have owned someething like 10 1911's. Everything from a WWII Remington Rand rattler to a Gold Cup. None fed hollow points reliably. Some weren't even reliable with ball. I own none now. I bought a Glock 22 in the early 90's - first gen. Later a 27. Never had a malfunction and I taught handgun self protection for six years. I tried a Kahr but didn't like the trigger.

FWIW,

Jim

[Mytmousemalibu]

That being said, if I was in a line of work where there might be a gunfight, I'd want something that held more rounds. And that something wouldn't be a 2011 (double stack 1911). They feel wrong.

Most 2011's feel like garbage as they came. Para-Ord, STI, Caspian, etc. The plastic grips are flimsy, soft, thin and not well shaped. If you get the chance to put hands on one with an aluminum or steel grip.... If you look up "world of difference", it would be a picture of this! Phoenix Trinity and Cheely Custom make a fantastic grips. I have a PT w/ non grip safety, and love it. Kinda puts the CZ/Tanfo kink in the web area.
I would never carry one though.

My last 1911 was a Sig, stainless Nitron in .45, nice gun but sold. I prefer the external extractor like this, S&W has.

Looking to buy another 1911 in 9mm before long.

[John McCorkle]

Sad to see them ride into the sunset...

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[dverna]

Sad to see them ride into the sunset...

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Yes, but they are going to a good home. The guy buying them is a friend, and if I ever get the urge, he will bring them to my place and I can shoot them. He cannot shoot them at his place as he lives too close to town. I am in the middle of a state forest.

[45DUDE]

Don does your old Team Match have the external extractor? Just curious, I have a TM II that does and I wish it did not because those extractors are hard to come by.

Mine has the outside and lays the brass in the same place with the correct spring for the load. $750 out the door I had to have it.

[frkelly74]

My experience was if you aim carefully, the 1911 will hit what you are aiming at. My glock, its a 21, hits whatever I point it at. It just feels more natural in my hand. but I still love them both.

[uscra112]

I don't own either one, but I love to watch the fur fly!

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, but they are going to a good home. The guy buying them is a friend, and if I ever get the urge, he will bring them to my place and I can shoot them. He cannot shoot them at his place as he lives too close to town. I am in the middle of a state forest.

I always thought a gun being shot is way better than one sitting in the safe. I never had the urge for a wallhanger, and anything sitting in a safe makes me sad. Even better if they go to someone you know will enjoy them.

[alamogunr]

Interesting thread with varying points of view. I've got two 1911's(latest Dan Wesson ECP), two 2011's(just found out that referred to-Para types) and Glock 19 & 21. The Glocks are what would be referred to as 1st gen. Not looking to get rid of any.

The Glock 21 is kept in a handy place in the house. Not a carry gun by any stretch.

[elmacgyver0]

I have owned someething like 10 1911's. Everything from a WWII Remington Rand rattler to a Gold Cup. None fed hollow points reliably. Some weren't even reliable with ball. I own none now. I bought a Glock 22 in the early 90's - first gen. Later a 27. Never had a malfunction and I taught handgun self protection for six years. I tried a Kahr but didn't like the trigger.

FWIW,

Jim

I always wondered about this; I have heard multiple stories about high end 1911s that did not reliably feed ammunition.
The first foray I had into 1911s was one I built on an Essex frame. (don't laugh) It has a slide marked FABRICA DE ITAJITBA - BRASIL on one side.
On the other side,EXERCITO BRASILEIRO
I used the cheapest parts I could find, back then I had little money to play with.
I followed the instructions in Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook.
That gun will reliably feed empty cases.

[charlie b]

Not counting numerous service 1911's I've shot three a lot. Father-in-law's Gold Cup, my 1911 (from my father) that was reworked by a local gunsmith for carry duty, and my wife's Lite Commander. The Gold Cup was touchy about feeding. It liked round nose and some HPs (like Silvertips). SWC's would jam. Mine would feed almost anything, even in original form. The wife's Commander is the same and it is the only 1911 we have now. I owned a Springfield XD for a while but I rarely shot it so it went down the road.

I wish I could like a Glock. The grips felt like 2x4's to me (and I have large hands). One of these days I may get one and force myself to shoot it a lot to get used to it. Haven't tried one for a while so maybe it is time :)

[Cosmic_Charlie]

The Glock's light weight, reliability, and high capacity are hard to argue against. The 1911 has history and tradition going for it though and those are compelling. I have been proficient with both but would choose the glock in an emergency.

[Catshooter]

Interesting thread with varying points of view. I've got two 1911's(latest Dan Wesson ECP), two 2011's(just found out that referred to-Para types) and Glock 19 & 21. The Glocks are what would be referred to as 1st gen. Not looking to get rid of any.

The Glock 21 is kept in a handy place in the house. Not a carry gun by any stretch.

Probably not and for sure not. :)

The Gen 1 19 are very far and few between, to the point of the guys that have them (and know what they have) have turned down $25,000. Quite the collectors market these days for Glocks.

No such thing as a Gen 1 21. Earliest was the Gen 2. Great guns.

[alamogunr]

Probably not and for sure not. :)

The Gen 1 19 are very far and few between, to the point of the guys that have them (and know what they have) have turned down $25,000. Quite the collectors market these days for Glocks.

No such thing as a Gen 1 21. Earliest was the Gen 2. Great guns.

I was guessing based on when I acquired them. I may be wrong on both. The Glock 19 was Jan. 1994 and the Glock 21 was Sept.1994. The fact that Gen 1 19's are collectors items makes me suspect that mine is later.

[Catshooter]

You are correct John. I bought my first 19 in late '88. It's a common misconception, easy to do.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I had a G36 many years back. This was during my love affair with the 1911 pistol. I am extremely sorry to think back about trading that 36 off, it was the perfect carry .45 for me, modded to work better without the finger rests, and was way more accurate than any 1911 I had owned up to that point. I added a few Pearce mag extensions, and LOVED it even more when shooting. It ate every type of bullet that I could throw at it, and never choked......only time I could get it to stop was limp wristing to point of almost losing the gun during recoil.

There aren't too many handguns that I regret trading/selling off, but that one is top of the list for me.

Young and dumb back then. I worried more about what the ragazines were selling as the "bestest/fastest/needed mostest" and followed suit...... I now worry more about what the tool does for ME than what someone else has to say about the next shiny object coming across the counter. If it works, keep it. If you have better tools in the chest, sell it to someone who needs it.

[Bigslug]

I still do not comprehend the Glock vs. 1911 debate.

They're the two top combat automatics of history.

It's the vast pile of "EVERYTHING ELSE" that's junk!:mrgreen:

[Handloader109]

I still do not comprehend the Glock vs. 1911 debate.

They're the two top combat automatics of history.

It's the vast pile of "EVERYTHING ELSE" that's junk!:mrgreen:Glocks are police weapons, not military, but I'm splitting hairs. I've a couple 1911s in 9mm and a g17, and I like the 1911s way more than the glock, but the glock will eat anything. and hold twice the rounds. I actually like my plastic walther PPQ way more than the glock. 19 rounds with slight extended mag, and a way better trigger than any stock glock. But I'm not selling the 1911s..

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[Dan Cash]

Well if you don't shoot in competitions, hunt with handguns, and don't shoot a lot of large primer stuff, then sure, I can get behind that. I think you should try a modern non-1911 type gun before writing off the 45 acp completely though. A FN FNX 45 with the 15 round magazine is one heck of a machine.

The so called modern tupperware .45 ACP are boxcar big with all the grace of a gnu. To suggest that they are superior combat weapons is disgusting.

[JohnH]

I'm just a bumpkin who likes 1911's. At one time I certainly thought they were the be all end all of pistols and I've shot lots of them from a Thompson that wouldn't feed ball to a Kimber that would feed rocks. My current specimen is a RIA Gov't Model. Sure it's low on the totem pole as classy top of the line guns go, but it works. It feeds, shoot where I point it and when I'm up to par it will produce some surprising groups. Problem for me these days is my arthritic hands won't take the straight back recoil into the web of my hand anymore. I can barely shoot 25 rounds before I'm done for the day. I've switched to revolvers for range time. For carry I'm totin' a S&W Model 39. I've never gotten the groups out of it I do with my RIA but it's lighter to carry and offers a grip frame that at least feels like I'm holding a pistol. I've also got a S&W SD9VE that will feed rocks but it does good to hold 4" at 10 yards, and that's with the trigger job.

I've shot Glocks, they shoot well but the plastic fantastics lack what one can only called intrinsic quality. Even my cheap old H&R 32 S&W long feels created. The worst 1911 I"ve ever shot, felt created. Every plastic gun I've owned or shot feels "put together". It does not feel as though human beings put any love or effort into it's making. A Thompson 1911 that doesn't shoot leaves me wanting to fix it. An S&W SD9VE that doesn't shoot leaves me wondering why I traded for it.

[Sig556r]

Got me a Kimber BP Ten II...kinda an offspring of 1911 & glock, 14 rounds of 45acp in a light frame...sad that it's a series 80 though.

[unclemikeinct]

IDK, it really is a very personal feel/function deal. I still have the Vega SS frame/slide 1911 I cobbled together as a youth [late 1970's]. My Colt 1911 SS gold cup is a joy to shoot. I really like my custom Kimber late 1980's 3" job to show off & it SHOOTS !. I've played around w a couple of Glocks. Last one, was a tricked out suppressed model. Really fast & cool, I outshot the kid that owned it ... Expensive thou. As for Modern Stuff .. Meh, I'm fond of the Walther PPQm5 my buddy has two & they handle very nicely & I shoot them well. Way better than my S&W custom shop 40 with a 3.5" barrel. UncleMikeinCt

[unclemikeinct]

PS: My two Favs are my first 4" Colt Python 1970's vintage [Sold off long ago,big regret] . & Now I show off w an SS 629 5" classic [w/ the Python Like underlug] 44Mag. revolver. That gun really handles & shoots nicely. Funny story about that one, I wanted it at first sight. Felt like the action was full of sand. The dealer sent it back to S&W, I forgot about it. A couple of months later I walk in the same shop & there it is. Fully tuned, tricked out still new in the box. It was mine out the door w a box of ammo & the sales tax $825.00 bucks. I was a happy man.

[Ia.redneck]

I think it was Jeff Cooper that said "plastic is for squirt guns"

I love 1911's, and shoot revolvers mostly now that I'm old. (don't have to pick up brass)

But I have a Glock 23 on my nightstand. :)

[one-eyed fat man]

You won't see a Glock in a picture like this...

296016

but...

296015

[Jtarm]

45Dude,

I had no use for Glocks having come up through Bullseye where 1911's ruled the roost. I had both a .38 and .45 Clark...just amazing accuracy. It would be tough for a Glock to shoot a 20 yard group as small as a Clark at 50 yards.

I bought my first Glock (G22) for ****s and giggles to see what the hype was all about. NEVER expected to switch platforms as I was heavily invested in 1911's. Things I liked about the Glock:

It works
It is simple.
It is easy to fix if it does not work.
It has no safety
I holds twice the rounds of a 1911. No need to carry a spare mag.
By buying a 9mm barrel and mags I can switch the G22 from .40 to 9mm in less than 5 minutes. Can do that for .357 Sig but I do not shoot .357 Sig.

I have heard some folks raised on 1911's cannot shoot Glocks well. I did not experience that. Yes, the 1911's I had were higher end and had great triggers, and I shot better with the 1911's but not that much better. Does is really matter if you are putting 2" groups on CM at 10 yards or 3" groups?

If I were you, I would buy an LEO trade-in G22. Add about $100 for a 9mm barrel and some mags and you are set to go to try the platform out without a large investment and you can get all your money out if you do not like it. That will let you try both .40 and 9mm and see what works best for you.

It took me about 500 rounds to get used to the "mushy" Glock trigger. There are aftermarket kits to improve the Glock trigger and for a competition gun that is something to consider. Buy a spare set if you do that. The gentleman who uses his Glock for work told me a sad story. One of his friends put an after market trigger kit into his G22 and it failed during a gun fight. His buddy died when the trigger failed.

Pretty much the same here, except for the bullseye part (silhouette for me.)

I was always (and still am) a revolver guy, considered the 1911 the only acceptable auto and own a couple plus a 3rd gen Smith (still don’t get the big deal).

Then I bought a dirt-cheap G22. It was OK, but I swapped it for a Security Six. Then bought an unissued LEO G35.

The Glock trigger never gave me any grief, I find it easier manipulate than trying to sneak up on a 1911 trigger. Despite small hands, I like the grip, there’s plenty of meat to hang on to.

If I had to pick an auto from my safe for SD, it would be the Glock, and not really for capacity.

[rbuck351]

The Glocks are very good pistols but they have one issue I can't deal with. When I draw it to pointed in, it is not pointed where I'm looking. Not so much a problem with the gun as it is with me being more used to a 1911. I had an early G21 and shot it quite a bit and it worked great. I was issued a G22 in corrections and shot it quite a bit but it had the same issue. I have a Ballister Molina 1911 style that I have had for 40+ years that hits where I'm looking without using sights to about 15yds. It will run any thing I have tried in it including 200gr swc loaded backwards for bulleye shooting. Makes really clean holes in paper.

About 6 years ago my wife bought an XDs in 45 and decided she liked her 9mm better so I started shooting it. The XDs turned out to be a natural pointer for me as well and being a lot smaller than a 1911 it has become my CC pistol. It also runs everything I have tried in it. I can't imagine needing more that 8 rds in a defense shooting but I do carry a spare 7 rd mag.

I can't knock the Glocks as they are very good pistols but they don't fit me well.