Slug and Rifled Choke Question

[barnabus]

I have loaded up some Lyman 525 slugs over 23.0 unique powder and a F114 wad thats found in the 5th edition. i purchased a Carlson rifled choke tube for my AR12. what has been yall experience with slugs/wad combo out of a rifled choke tube? Anything i need to know.

[centershot]

My experience with a rifled tube is limited to my 870 but it was much better than I ever expected! A couple of years ago I worked up a load for my M500 w/ rifled barrel, that load would put 5 shots into a jagged 2" hole at 50 yds. I tried that same load through the 870 with cylider, IC and Mod tubes with no success. I bought a Carlson's rifled tube and that same load would hold a 3" group at 50 yds. I have to admit that was better than I ever expected. I didn't think slamming a full speed load into rifling would be anything but a failure, but, that tube was money well spent!

[W.R.Buchanan]

The British Big Gun makers of 100+ years ago made Guns known as "Ball and Shot" guns under the Moniker of "Paradox." These guns were designed to be a "one gun that does it all," for those venturing into the Dark Continent. They were 12,10, 8 and 4 Gauge Double Barrel, Side by Side Hammer Guns, and they had Rifling for the last 2-3" of the barrel before the muzzle. Much the same as the Rifled Choke Tubes of today.

I recently ran across a Gun's & Ammo Magazine which was one of the first gun mags I ever bought when I was 13 years old. (59 years ago!) It has an Evans 8 Bore Fully Rifled Double gun on the cover and a story about it inside. The article was actually about two guns, the Evans Double, and a H&H 8 Bore Paradox Gun.

The Evans gun was purportedly owned by "Bwana Cottar" who was responsible for taking several hundred African Elephants with it. It was kind of a Plain Jane working rifle, however the H&H Paradox gun was a fully engraved work of art! They weighed between 16-18 lbs! and the recoil of a .460 Weatherby was said to be "Positively Soothing!", compared to these guns ! I can only imagine.

It shot a 1250 gr slug fueled by 14 drams of Black Powder and it took a real man to pull the trigger. There was one group posted in the article that was shot with the H&H gun, 6 shots at 50 yards ,3 left and 3 right, that measured 1 1/4 x 2 1/2" with the left barrel shooting a cloverleaf and the right slightly bigger. With a bore of .835, those are pretty big holes and the accuracy was much better than was expected. Note: Once again rifling for only the last 2-3 " of the barrels on the H&H gun which shot the record.

So in answer to your question about Rifled Choke Tubes, it would appear that it can be an accurate method of increasing accuracy of Shotguns. I am about to find out with some MP/Lyman Sabot Slugs I have loaded and I also want to try some of my STI Slugs which are designed for Rifled Barrels to see if they will work. We'll see.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

They weren't just plain shallow rifled, at least the H&H Paradox gun used Fosbery's ratchet choked rifling:

https://i.postimg.cc/cCyP8w8T/Paradox-boring-reduced.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Hcz6qJz7)

Actual dimensions seem hard to find, or at least I haven't found definitive info but have read that smoothbore diameters ranged from 0.735" to 0.745" and the lands of the choke were as small as 0.690" so a tight squeeze!

A view from the muzzles:

https://i.postimg.cc/k5NSmdv4/H1121-L78725107.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Definitely deeper rifling than in a typical rifled choke tube! The idea was to grab the Kynoch slug, squeeze and spin without it stripping:

https://i.postimg.cc/QMnvqvv6/6b30cd53495c6cde4be2e08abcc949ba03b26f25.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I'm guessing the narrow driving bands allowed for easy squish and the design allowed for lead displacement with the tight squeeze.

I e-mailed H&H in London and was contacted by the London gunroom manager who was quite helpful but he didn't have any technical info on diameters and twist rates. He said the barrel makers just used the original tooling as it was.

Ross Seyfried wrote an article about his Paradox gun and IIRC he said the rifling twist was 1:36" which seems awfully fast to me. The round ball guns ran very slow twist of about 1:100" for 12 ga. round ball. The Paradox slugs are not a lot longer than they are in diameter so wouldn't require fast twist.

I have a rifled choke tube and adapter but haven't put it on a gun yet as I want to use a cheap donor gun to test it on before trying to silver solder that adapter to my Mossberg Slugster. I don't have any guns threaded for choke tubes or I would have tested it by now.

I have read very polarized comments about the rifled choke tubes. Some say they shoot like a rifle and some say they don't help much if at all. I suspect that fit is king as always and those that have bore diameter slugs or a sabot slug that fits the rifling well have better success than those that just shoot anything through the rifled choke tube.

I have been anxiously awaiting your rifled choke tubes testing because you know what you are doing so I will believe your results. That might spur me into action either getting barrels threaded or the adapter installed. I can't afford the £130,000.00 H&H wants for a real Paradox gun!

https://hollandandholland.com/guns/the-paradox-gun

I have to make do with what I have!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kent: Your pics were greatly appreciated! Especially the one muzzle on, as it really shows how deep that rifling was. You can see that the Paradox Slugs had ample room for Lead Displacement so deep rifling would certainly bite and spin the slugs. The grooves look like they are a faster twist than the Carlson's Choke Tube..

So on the Carlson's Rifled tube I have the Grooves measure .729 and the Lands measure .710. so that means the rifling is .010 deep on each side! Which is a lot deeper than I would have guessed. But wait,,, At the entrance to the tube the grooves are .742 and the lands are .738? So this thing is Choked/Tapered, as well as being rifled. So in the end the grooves go from .002 deep to .010 deep! Go figure?, and obviously we don't know what they were thinking when they designed this thing?

Maybe I'll call them and ask?

Oh, and that H&H Paradox was L130,000 plus VAT!

Randy

[longbow]

I'll have to check mine Randy! I drove a 0 735" ball through it but didn't notice a change in groove depth or any angle to the lands. Resistance to driving the ball through seemed consistent but then I wasn't looking for anything but engraving on the ball.

I'm pretty sure mine just says groove diameter is 0.730" with no other info... also Carlson's. Of course groove diameter would be better at 0.728"/0.729" or even tighter and with deep rifling. A full bore slug might not strip too easily but a wad slug is a different story. The wad has to grip rifling and transfer the spin to the slug so fit must have to be pretty tight.

I'll check mine for diameters tomorrow. Now I'm curious!

Longbow

[missionary5155]

I have enjoyed reading this fine fact filled thread !
My thoughts at this moment are...Why try to improve on what worked 140 years ago ? Those barrel makers had access to Projectile protectors... Paper patches and they went full bore with good results. A fine working compromise for the task.
At the real ranges of need... 50 yards and usually closer to under 30 yards, the system worked.

I do think a progressive full rifled barrel is the best answer (Pope and others).
We have 2 Hall rifles. One a 1819 flint and a 1836 percussion made at Harpers Ferry Arsenal. Both have progressive rifling and shoot lubed naked RB fine. This is a Beach Loader. The military used a Paper Cartridge. But I load from a measure and use a snug fitting .54 40-1 RB. Groove is .54. Lands are about .52. At 50 yards they both shoot nice cloverleafs with me sitting on the back side.
But building the rifling rig would have to be far more complicated.

But I am reading and do enjoy it all.

[longbow]

To try to stick to the topic of what you need to know...

Several people have posted that their choke tubes tightened up so much they either had trouble removing them or had to get a gunsmith to remove the choke tube.

Use a good choke tube lube is the moral of that story!

Petander posted recently that he used Hi-Tek Aqualube with good results:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?435246-Rifled-choke-Hi-Tek-Aqualube-as-anti-seize-Very-good

Longbow

[Petander]

I have a Carlsons rifled choke for a 20 gauge 870.

With my limited 2 years rifled choke experience I've noticed slightly better grouping with Round ball / wad -ammo, compared to any or no plain choke. I have two ball sizes, a tight fit is better. I get 6" / 75 meters with my "Economy RB:s" , factory trap ammo cut open, remove shot,add a cork and a round ball. Roll crimp while squeezing tight.

It's okay plinking ammo up to 50 m for me.

I do get better results with fullbore slugs like this Zveroboy, a typical 25 m group, fired standing with a red dot / 20 gauge 870. I'm only in the beginning of testing these further out from bench, a 12 gauge fullbore / fully rifled barrel madness caught me. 20 has been on standby...

I think fit is king here,too. And how the wad grips the slug to spin it, my coated slugs/balls may not have the best grip...

Fullbore has less variables.

Here is rifled choke 25 m standing. Fullbore Zveroboy.

https://i.postimg.cc/yYWRRt6P/IMG-20211121-WA0000.jpg

[Mr Peabody]

I have loaded up some Lyman 525 slugs over 23.0 unique powder and a F114 wad thats found in the 5th edition. i purchased a Carlson rifled choke tube for my AR12. what has been yall experience with slugs/wad combo out of a rifled choke tube? Anything i need to know.

I've had good results with a wad combo that measured .730 or greater. Less than that didn't work so good, Carlson's says their choke tube is set up for .730 or greater

[Hogtamer]

The older I get the more attractive the 20 ga becomes. Nice job!

[centershot]

To address a couple of questions brought up in the thread;

Fit - In developing my 12 ga. sabot load with the M500, nothing good happened until I went over bore size with my payload. I'm loading a .662" RB in a Federal 12S3 wad which mikes .717-.718". I added a coiled paper strip .011" thick around the ball to bring the OD up to .739". Instant success! If you're running a sabot-type load you need to squeeze it pretty hard.

As far as choke tube lube, I use the same aluminum-based anti-sieze compound that I use on my inline muzzle loader. Haven't had a problem yet with an overly tight tube. You can buy a lifetime supply at any auto parts store.

Mike - I hope you treasure those Harper's Ferry riles (I know you do!) as much as I wish I had one! They are a beautiful piece of work! Keep the faith, Brother!

[missionary5155]

Howdy Centershot
Yes we are blessed to have them for these years. The years we have traveled our country visiting churches has also been used to visit the local shops. Some have held treasures we never expected that the local population had no interest in. We are blessed !
While we are down here in Peru they are on display at the Vermilion County War Museum, Danville, ILL-ois. Most people have no idea what they are.
But when we are up there the 1819 model flintlock goes out with me. The 1832 cap-lock is in very nice condition. But the flintlocks are far more interesting to me.
But I wander off the trail here.

[longbow]

So, I mic'd my Carlson's 12 ga. choke tube I bought for the Mossberg Slugster. It is a standard rifled choke tube, not an extended one or at least not as extended as I have seen some to be. I did not see any extended rifled choke tubes for Mossberg on the Carlson's site when I ordered mine.

In any case, I drove a 0.735" RB into each end of the choke then mic'd the lands on the balls (choke groove diameter) and got:

- muzzle end: 0.729"
- butt end: 0.733"

So if I measured correctly that means about 0.004" larger diameter at the butt end.

I tried as best I could using a vernier to check groove diameter on the balls (choke land diameter) and got:

- muzzle end: 0.718"
- butt end: 0.726"

So, 0.008" larger land diameter at the butt end. No surprise here because there is a taper machined into the choke tube entry so there is a machined taper to the lands. I drove the ball in past where I thought the machining ended.

Then I used a Starrett telescoping gauge and micrometer to check choke tube diameters. I got:

- muzzle end: 0.727" groove; 0.719" land
- butt end: 0.734" groove; 0.732" land (I thought I was below the machined taper so maybe the land/groove depth is tapered?)

So from that it appears that the groove diameter is slightly larger at the entry /butt end of the choke tube but rifling depth is about 0.0055" deep max. ((0.729" - 0.718")/2 = 0.0055") It looks shallower than that to me (I'd say more like 0.004") but that is what the measurements say. The rifling in my choke tube is certainly not 0.010" deep!

If the grooves are tapered I am not sure how they would accomplish that unless the choke tube was cocked with respect to a single cutter and choke tube revolved as each groove was cut.

Maybe Carlson's has changed their rifling method? It certainly appears that mine is much different than Randy's. I bought mine a couple of years ago... and it still sits waiting for me to pick a gun to silver solder the adaptor to!

At this point I'll wait to read about Randy's results before adding a rifled choke tube to a gun. Petander's results look good though so...?

Longbow

[missionary5155]

With those diameters I wonder... Are they hammer forging those rifled tubes ?

[longbow]

The bore is smooth without obvious machine marks but grooves look to be cut with longitudinal striations as a cutter would leave in them.

I'd say cut rifling from what I see.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kent: I measured my choke tube with Dial Calipers and it took me a few times to get repeatable readings. I was amazed that the rifling at the muzzle end was .010 deep! but also surprised that the entry end was so shallow and started out bigger .742?

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

Mike brought up a good point. I am quite sure my choke tube is machined smooth to ID. whether bored or reamed then grooves cut.

Does yours look like cut rifling? I guess at 0.010" deep it would have to be cut or possibly hammer forged as Mike asked.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

The obvious way to cut rifling over a short length would be with a full profile reamer in a single pass (Uberti does this on many of their barrels)
but that would not explain the taper, unless the choke is "squeezed" slightly on the middle in the holding jig during reaming.

[barnabus]

https://i.imgur.com/pbMgr37.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uogE7SJ.jpg
here is the results from 30 yards with the Lyman 525 slug with 23.0 grains unique with f114 downrange wad and carlsons rifled choke. Mounted is a Burris Fastfire 3

[W.R.Buchanan]

Next time you shoot those slugs use a Diamond shaped target and put the edge of the Red Dot against the left point of the target. Your group will shrink dramatically and the center of the group should print just above and to the left of the point of the diamond. That amount will be half of however big your Red Dot is. IE; 3 MOA dot would yield 1.5" to the left.

Shooting groups with a Red Dot is all about being able to repeatedly index the dot on the target at the exact same place everytime.

Hope this helps

Randy

[centershot]

Randy,
How is shooting as you described superior to holding center on a conventional black circular target? Do you believe that centering a red dot in a black circle is less precise? I don't want to start an argument here, I'm just curious. As a person with a vision deficit I find that I shoot better groups holding center on a regular black bull.

[Petander]

Kent: Your pics were greatly appreciated! Especially the one muzzle on, as it really shows how deep that rifling was. You can see that the Paradox Slugs had ample room for Lead Displacement so deep rifling would certainly bite and spin the slugs. The grooves look like they are a faster twist than the Carlson's Choke Tube..

So on the Carlson's Rifled tube I have the Grooves measure .729 and the Lands measure .710. so that means the rifling is .010 deep on each side! Which is a lot deeper than I would have guessed. But wait,,, At the entrance to the tube the grooves are .742 and the lands are .738? So this thing is Choked/Tapered, as well as being rifled. So in the end the grooves go from .002 deep to .010 deep! Go figure?, and obviously we don't know what they were thinking when they designed this thing?

Maybe I'll call them and ask?

Oh, and that H&H Paradox was L130,000 plus VAT!

Randy


I measured my 20 gauge Carlson's rifled choke.

I can confirm tapered rifling but my lands are only 0.0055" high at the muzzle. Entrance lands height is 0.002" after a 1/4" long smooth freebore.

So the entrance is 0.629" no rifling freebore for 1/4" length. Then the groove starts at 0.627 and tapers down to 0.619" at the muzzle end. Lands start at 0.623" and taper down to 0.608" at the muzzle.

There must have been some experienced brains working on the design. It's not just a simple straight rifled tube. At least they have tried to make the transition to spinning a smooth one.


I can push both my russian fullbore slugs in the entrance for that 1/4".

https://i.postimg.cc/L855pxfM/IMG-20220118-141935-146-3.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

I tried calling Carlson's today but the guy I needed to talk to is at the SHOT Show all this week.

I'll call back next week and find out the thinking behind the tapered configuration.

We need answers, and I'm gonna get 'em!

Randy

[longbow]

In my opinion tapered/choked rifling makes sense to squeeze and grip the slug... as the original Paradox guns were rifled.

What doesn't make sense to me is Randy's much oversize land and groove diameters at the choke entrance. Groove diameter should start at or very slightly larger than nominal barrel bore diameter of 0.729" ( for 12 ga.) then tighten from there. Lands should have a short taper lead in then taper down with grooves or even more than grooves resulting in increasing rifling depth.

My thoughts anyway.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Kent: The choke tube is tapered both in the lands and grooves, and choked from back to front.

I did verify that with the Carlson's guy today, He didn't know why, and the guy who does is in Las Vegas. I'll pick his brain when he gets back next week.

It is not easy to measure this with accuracy and I had to do it several times to get numbers to Repeat.

Randy

[longbow]

Yes, both mine and Petander's choke tubes seem to have the same tapered rifling in grooves and on lands. Easy to have tapered lands, not so easy to have tapered grooves!

That was one of the questions I asked H&H... are the grooves cut straight through a choked muzzle or are the grooves cut with a choked form as well? But no answer there.

If your rifling is as deep as you say your choke tube is much different than mine. As best I can measure my lands and grooves both taper smaller diameter towards the muzzle but rifling is only about 0.005" deep at the muzzle. That was one of my complaints about modern rifled choke tubes, rifling is shallow. The Paradox guns were apparently rifled from bore of at least 0.735" down to as small as 0.690" land I.D. (not sure about grooves) but that means squeezing a slug or ball from 0.735"+ down to 0.690" which is some squeeze! If grooves are chokes as well that is a really tight squeeze!

I'll be interested in what you find out for sure!

Of course none of this is helping the OP!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK; I stand corrected; I measured it again, This time with a light shining thru so I could see where the Caliper ID hooks were placed and got .720 over the lands and .730 in the grooves. So that means that the rifling is .005 on a side at the Muzzle End.

There is a Forcing cone that is about .250 long and tapers from .750 at the opening to .742 where the lands start. The forcing cone is there so that the choke tube would never be smaller than the bore of the barrel and always avoid shaving lead or blowing the tube completely out of the Barrel.

The grooves are .742 at that point and lands are .738 so the rifling is .002 deep on a side, which is what I got last time.

What I got wrong last time was the ID of the lands at teh Muzzle End. Which I thought were .710 instead of .720.

I have been cogitating on how they would make this thing and the only way I can come up with is to Hammer Forge it over a Mandrel. You could never get the internal finish they have by any cutting method.

My only other question is how they got the Knurling on after they hammer forged the tube with out collapsing it. The threads are no problem.

My last question is how they came up with the tapered internals idea? I'll have to wait til next week to get that answer.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Randy,
How is shooting as you described superior to holding center on a conventional black circular target? Do you believe that centering a red dot in a black circle is less precise? I don't want to start an argument here, I'm just curious. As a person with a vision deficit I find that I shoot better groups holding center on a regular black bull.

CTRShot" if your dot is the same size as the target spot then it would be fairly easy to index it in the same place for every shot. However if the target spot is much bigger or smaller then it is almost impossible to index the dot on it perfectly everytime. Also Red Dots on the less expensive Red Dot Sights are seldom perfectly round. I have 6 Bushnell TRS 25 and none of them have round dots due to the reflective pattern that the light has travel thru. The lenses are angled to reflect the dot to a given place on the final lens. The fact that they are angled is what distorts the shape of the dot.

By placing the edge of whatever shape you've got against the point of the diamond you can easily index it the same way every time no matter the shape of the dot. If the Dot is supposed to be 3MOA then the group should be 1.5" off the point of the diamond when everything is aligned. Here's a target I shot with my Mini14. This was re-sighting after taking the optic off the gun and putting it back on.

The Elevation was close, but the Windage had moved to the left. The single hole to the left was the first shot and then I corrected to move the group to the right and up, but I went about 2 clicks too far but still left it alone. The group should have been about 1" to the left to be dead on. This was shot at 100 yards and was set up for a 200 yard zero.

This little tidbit was given to me by Brian Pearce of Handloader/Rifle Magazines. Him and his sons shot more in one week than all of us put together will shoot in a lifetime. They get better groups than we do by shooting more and by learning how to index the gun's sights on a given target. With Open or Aperture Sights they index the Front Sight on the bottom point of the target, and they can center that front sight perfectly on the bottom point of a diamond shaped target.

With Scope Sighted Rifles they use the cross lines on the target to index the cross hairs on both planes. That is fairly easy to get repeat shots on the same POA.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

The grooves in my choke tube look to be cut to me... whether broached or single hook cutter I don't know but there are longitudinal striations that look like they were left by a cutting tool.

I hope you get some answers next week.

I e-mailed Carlson's with questions but no response yet.

Longbow

[barnabus]

Next time you shoot those slugs use a Diamond shaped target and put the edge of the Red Dot against the left point of the target. Your group will shrink dramatically and the center of the group should print just above and to the left of the point of the diamond. That amount will be half of however big your Red Dot is. IE; 3 MOA dot would yield 1.5" to the left.

Shooting groups with a Red Dot is all about being able to repeatedly index the dot on the target at the exact same place everytime.

Hope this helps

Randy

thanks ill try that.This is the first red dot ive owned,The dot looks more like a left leaning line which im sure is my eyes. my red dot is 3MOA

[Petander]

The Carson's Choke plot thickens.

Randy's observations made me go and get my 20 gauge Carlson's choke again, to take a better look and voila',I discovered a separate ,short steep taper right there at the tube entrance. I somehow missed it the last time.

So my real tube entrance edge is 0.633", then after 0.060" length it has tapered down to 0.628". Then, after about 0.190" it has tapered down to 0.6255" and that's where the lands start.

So there is a short steep taper,followed by a longer smooth, not so steep taper. Then the lands start and everything keeps getting tighter while the lands also grow higher.

https://i.postimg.cc/YqBJtt4r/IMG-20220119-210451-046-5.jpg

[longbow]

Back to your original question...

something you should check is slug in wad fit to bore. The fit of slug in wad in your smoothbore barrel should be "snug". Ajay (SuperBlazingSabots) said 6lb. to 10 lb. push through force gives best accuracy for smoothbore. You will also want a pretty tight fit of slug/wad through the rifled choke tube to avoid skidding or slug in wad or stripping of plastic wad in rifling... though you have what you have for smooth bore barrel and rifled choke tube.

The choke tube should be 0.730" groove diameter so if your smoothbore barrel is 0.729"/0.730" things should work reasonably well.

You may get better results with tighter or looser fitting wads. It is good to try a few.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK: I talked to Scott at Carlson's yesterday and got some info on the Rifled Choke Tubes. During the evolution of the product they did in fact taper the inside of the tube so that they would pattern slugs better.

They also found that the sweet spot for Velocity was 1600 fps with Factory Ammo. And they only used factory ammo in their tests. They got 2" groups at 100 yards with some ammo, and Brenneke's "Classic Magnums" were the best.

The Rifled Choke Tubes pattern Bird Shot like an IC tube. But they don't recommend shooting much shot thru one as they will get shot out.

He wouldn't divulge how they make these tubes, so our speculations will not be confirmed. They may be "Broached" as he did mention that they do that to other tubes.

Another tid bit is that there is a "strait section" for about 1/2" before the muzzle. This is true for all their Choke Tubes. And all our measurements were confirmed. This comes from the Jug Choke tech from long ago, which we discussed at length here previously.

I had a good talk with him and I hope he shows up here to participate in the forum..

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

@Petlander, all choke tubes are chamfered like that right at the mouth. It keeps them from catching the shot/slug.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes; it works just like a Forcing Cone, but the main purpose is to be smaller than the bore preceding it so nothing hangs up on it.

The taper in the Rifled Chokes is to slowly,,, (Relatively Speaking?) compress the slug into the shape of the rifling as opposed to abruptly reforming it..

Randy

[barnabus]

OK: I talked to Scott at Carlson's yesterday and got some info on the Rifled Choke Tubes. During the evolution of the product they did in fact taper the inside of the tube so that they would pattern slugs better.

They also found that the sweet spot for Velocity was 1600 fps with Factory Ammo. And they only used factory ammo in their tests. They got 2" groups at 100 yards with some ammo, and Brenneke's "Classic Magnums" were the best.

The Rifled Choke Tubes pattern Bird Shot like an IC tube. But they don't recommend shooting much shot thru one as they will get shot out.

He wouldn't divulge how they make these tubes, so our speculations will not be confirmed. They may be "Broached" as he did mention that they do that to other tubes.

Another tid bit is that there is a "strait section" for about 1/2" before the muzzle. This is true for all their Choke Tubes. And all our measurements were confirmed. This comes from the Jug Choke tech from long ago, which we discussed at length here previously.

I had a good talk with him and I hope he shows up here to participate in the forum..

Randy

you mentioned Carlson said dont shoot shot out of their riled tube..do you believe this? im wanting to shoot number 4BS without having to change out choke. my gun will be used for slug hunting and home defense

[W.R.Buchanan]

He said don't shoot a lot of shot thru it as it will wear the tube out . I'd say that is Debatable?

With the number or rounds you'd fire using #4 Buck I doubt there would be any adverse effect on the tube. The worst thing that could happen is to ruin a $50 tube. Certainly not the end of the world.

Those choke tubes are made from 17-4 PH material treated to H1000 so they won't give up very easy.

Randy

[dverna]

I have a Carlsons rifled choke for a 20 gauge 870.

With my limited 2 years rifled choke experience I've noticed slightly better grouping with Round ball / wad -ammo, compared to any or no plain choke. I have two ball sizes, a tight fit is better. I get 6" / 75 meters with my "Economy RB:s" , factory trap ammo cut open, remove shot,add a cork and a round ball. Roll crimp while squeezing tight.

It's okay plinking ammo up to 50 m for me.

I do get better results with fullbore slugs like this Zveroboy, a typical 25 m group, fired standing with a red dot / 20 gauge 870. I'm only in the beginning of testing these further out from bench, a 12 gauge fullbore / fully rifled barrel madness caught me. 20 has been on standby...

I think fit is king here,too. And how the wad grips the slug to spin it, my coated slugs/balls may not have the best grip...

Fullbore has less variables.

Here is rifled choke 25 m standing. Fullbore Zveroboy.

https://i.postimg.cc/yYWRRt6P/IMG-20211121-WA0000.jpg

That is amazing performance...both the load and the shooter. It will be interesting to see 50m benched groups.

[longbow]

Agree with Don!

Makes me wonder why on earth I am still messing about trying to Brenneke'ize Lee slugs!! However, since I started the thread I will finish the testing.

I am thinking that I should just buy a couple of Russian slug moulds and be done with it! This is pretty impressive. The Zveroboy seems to shoot pretty well.

Longbow

[Petander]

I forgot that 20 Zveroboy was this good with rifled choke.

I will try some with 3N37 now. The screw-on tailwad seems to work here. I still suspect my centering...

[Petander]

I forgot that 20 Zveroboy was this good with rifled choke.

I will try some with 3N37 now. The screw-on tailwad seems to work here. I still suspect my centering...

Yep another -4°F shooting day.

This is promising, my sling stud/swivel may play tricks with my hard rear bag. Two POI's keep repeating here with this 870. First two shots in one place, then the next three in another place.

https://i.postimg.cc/zfj08Xwj/IMG-20220203-174710-275-2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/WbTKRCPT/IMG-20220203-134633-203.jpg

Zveroboy is 4/5 oz, 1700 fps is quite okay I think.

[longbow]

Looks good and pretty zippy load at 1700 FPS!

Longbow.

[Cap'n Morgan]

It could be a fluke - or the barrel shifting slightly between two positions. In a rifle it's often an indication of a loose base (or a cheap scope)
You need that cantilever barrel! - but it's still a promising group.