308 150 gr MBW?

[SEOkie]

I have been wanting to find a 308 cast boolit for those "just in case" times. I am fairly new to casting and PC but have the equipment. I would like to find a 150gr or close boolit and be able to run it around 2500 fps. These MBW boolits are just what I have in mind. Has anyone tried these?

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/308-noe-150gr-spire-point/

[Thumbcocker]

I would strongly recommend a gas checked boolit. 2500 fps is very ambitious. 2000-2100 is much more doable.

Do some research on this site about boolit fit and etc.

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[Bakebfr480]

A gas checked pure Linotype bullet!

[SEOkie]

Well, I read a lot of posts with velocities North of 2500fps and thought that would be reasonable goal. Is leading the issue or is it that accuracy suffers with increased velocity? Or both? I thought PC mitigated the leading and allowed for increased velocities.

[charlie b]

It is not a problem with leading. It depends on your rifling twist. The spin rate aggravates any flaws and can cause accuracy issues. How bad? Depends on your bullets and your rifle. My .308 (1/10) does best between 1800 and 2000fps. Groups open up a bit as the velocity goes up to the 2400fps range. Still minute of deer, but, not what I like to shoot.

A few people have had ok luck with std alloys and some have added copper to their alloy to go faster.

[dverna]

Well, I read a lot of posts with velocities North of 2500fps and thought that would be reasonable goal. Is leading the issue or is it that accuracy suffers with increased velocity? Or both? I thought PC mitigated the leading and allowed for increased velocities.

People do not report all their groups...it is the lie of omission. There are a handful of guys here who I believe can hold a consistent 8” group with five shots at 400 yards with cast bullets.

None of my SHTF rifles are set up with cast bullets except for pistol caliber carbines.

[oldblinddog]

Read this: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?387293-Cast-and-the-308-Win&p=5330666&viewfull=1#post5330666

[dverna]

Read this: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?387293-Cast-and-the-308-Win&p=5330666&viewfull=1#post5330666

To the OP....read the above carefully. BTW Mr Gibson is one of the guys who can "ger 'r done".

These guys are not using commercial cast bullets, and stock rifles. Look at the velocity Gibson is at.

Lastly, cast bullets do not exhibit the linearity we usually get with jacketed bullets. By that I mean a 1 MOA jacketed at 100 yards will be very close to 1 MOA at 400 yards. Cast bullets will normally group larger MOA's at longer ranges than they get at 100 yards.

Getting a stock rifle to accurately shoot commercial cast bullets without a gas check at 2500 fps is unlikely to happen.

If you are committed to using cast, you should expect to cast bullets and experiment with powders, seating depth, sizing and lube to see what your barrel/throat likes. How you define "accuracy", will affect the level of satisfaction with your results. You have a long road ahead...at least that was my conclusion when I went down that road. In my case, it was not worth the journey. I do not expect to kill hundreds of looters if the SHTF, or 1000 deer. 500 Sierra 175 SMK for the long range "sniper" gun and 500 hunting bullets are a lifetime of jacketed bullets for when it matters. My cost was under $300 (maybe $375 today). No cast bullet will do a better job and ignore anyone who tells you differently. Saving a few pennies per bullet is not much of a priority when you need to kill to survive/eat. Shoot cast for practice or fun if you have no other options.

BTW I do not know OBG so no disrespect meant by not specifically naming his as one the guys who can "get 'r done". The link he posted is an interesting read.

[SEOkie]

Thanks for the responses. That has answered a lot of my thoughts directly. I really didn't realize that shooting cast boolits was so finicky in higher velocity rifle applications. I will say that I don't have the equipment, desire or fortitude to pursue the level of accuracy that most of you do. I don't wish to tailor a specific bullet to a specific rifle at this time. However, I would like to have the ability to cast a boolit that would work well in 308 rifle applications. My priorities are safety, reliability (auto's), then accuracy/velocity in that order. Obviously the latter two have to meet some threshold. I currently load 150 jacketed and that seems to be just a fit. I much prefer PC vs lube as I've only previously used Alox. So for now, without spending money on different molds and alloys, would anyone like to suggest a commercial cast boolit that will get me started?

[Thumbcocker]

Oooook now you mention that you want to fire these 2500 fps cast bullets in a semi auto platform. That is kind of the PHD of cast boolit loading.

What is possible is to fire boolits in a semi auto and get decent or better accuracy with full functioning. I would suggest that you review the threads on cast in the M1A in the military rifle section. With that said if I were in your position I would proceed as follows:

1.) Boolit of 170 to 180 grains sized not less than .310 and .311 would be better. It must be gas checked. Since you have some experience with LLA I would thin some LLA with alcohol and put it as a top coat over the factory lube.

2.) Load boolits using an M die. Don't skip this step.

3.) Clean all jacket fouling out of the bore.

4.) Consult a good reloading manual with data for the boolit weight you choose.

5.) For a semi auto platform I would use IMR 4895 powder. It was designed to work in semi auto guns and can be safely downloaded.

6.) Work up loads until you get accuracy and functioning. Probably in the 1900 to 2200 fps range.

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[dverna]

If I tick you off...I am sorry.

Not sure why you are insisting on buying cast bullets unless it is to save some $$$$. If that is the case, these bullets are going to be about the same price as a decent cast bullet with a gas check and will work in a semi-auto at normal velocities. You will have to have a GC cast bullet for what you want to do.

https://www.outdoorlimited.com/accessories/winchester-7-62-projectile-b762mc147n-147-grain-full-metal-jacket-2860-pieces/

If you want to buy fewer:
https://www.xtremebullets.com/308-147gr-FMJ-p/xj308-147fmj-b0500.htm

If there is another reason you prefer to shoot cast, then ignore the above.

The bullets above are not great in terms of accuracy. Most people reporting about 3 MOA. But better than you will get with commercial cast.

Good luck!!

[SEOkie]

Yes, currently almost all my 308 shooting is in my AR platform. I do have bolt action and a Win 100. At this time, I am well stocked in jacketed bullets. My desire to shoot cast is to simply learn the skill and have the knowledge and tools to do so if the need arises and/or just for the fun of it. I like shooting cast in handgun and didn't think shooting rifle would be much different.

As far as insisting on commercial bullets it just seems faster, simpler, and easier for now. Since I don't have a clue which mold I want/need and don't have the proper alloy, buying a few commercial would atleast be a starting point. Oh and not ticked off. Thanks for the advice.

[charlie b]

That is what I did when I started casting for rifles. I selected a few from Montana Bullet Works and shot them to see how they did. Worked so well I bought the gear and am still going. I started with lubed bullets and then went to PC, which has it's problems with bullet fit. Now days my favorite bullet is base sized and then nose sized, before and after PC. So, a lot of work.

Just don't expect to load them up to jacketed velocities and have great groups. Load them up until you just get functioning and see how they do.

[farmbif]

ive found that the Lyman 311299 to be a very good cast bullet to shoot in 308 win and 30-06. but in realistic velocity of around 1800fps to a max of about 2000fps.
if you get some different molds or pre cast bullets and do some load testing I'm sure you will find a load that will work well for you.

[oldblinddog]

I would advise you to skip the commercial cast bullets. Most of the members here have reported poor results. Usually this is due to the manufacturers sizing them to 0.309”. This is undersized for most 30 caliber barrels and it leads to inaccuracy and barrel leading. Now, some people have found success, but I’d say it is less than 50% in your favor.

As far as bullet moulds, for your application this is the only mould you need. You will see other moulds recommended and they are all good when used for what they were designed for. I have most of them and use them, but they are most often used in bolt action rifles or lever actions (think .30-30). The XCB was designed for high velocity. For your AR, this is what you need.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/310-165-fn-h3/310-165-fn-h3-4-cavity-gc-30xcb/

Lubing bullets is not as much trouble as coating them it seems to me. I included the link for White Label Lube. You said you had used Alox so I am assuming you have a lubrisizer. If so, then all you need is a 0.311” size die and the 2700+ lube (the link below). Of course you also need gas checks to fit. I provided the link to the other post because it has a plethora of load data that gets you into the 2200-2500 fps range.
https://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=17

If you still want to coat bullets you can still do that with these bullets. The main point that I am trying to make is that I believe you will reach your goal either way, if you pick this bullet mould. If you buy ready made bullets, I feel that there is a pretty good chance that you will not have good success and will then become discouraged. This is not as hard as it looks.

For powders, try A4350, RL22, IMR4831. For any of these, start at 43.0 grs. and work up looking for accuracy-velocity. You should find it somewhere in the 45-47 range. Let your AR tell you what it is happy with.

I would like to refer you to another post by Larry Gibson. It is a description of the XCB bullet:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?387293-Cast-and-the-308-Win&p=5236360&viewfull=1#post5236360

[Larry Gibson]

Your 308W ARs probably have 10" twists. The bolt action (?) could have a 10 or 12" twist depending on make, model and when made. The Winchester 100 will have a 12" twist. With the M100 using a proper GC'd and lubed cast bullet velocities can run upwards of 2300 - 2400 fps and give usable accuracy out to 200 - 300 yards, maybe further depending on the accuracy requirements. With the 10" twist barrels you'll find 2000 +/- fps to be about max for usable accuracy past 100 yards.

With PC'd bullets those velocities can be increased a bit. With a properly designed and coated GC'd bullet 2500 +/- fps with usable accuracy is being done.

Can you buy commercial cast bullets that meet those specifications? I don't know because I seldom buy any commercial cast bullets for rifle cartridges. With the internet it's easy enough to search for them though. If you get into casting the NOE 30 XCB would be an excellent choice for 12" twist gas guns. MP makes moulds in the 180 gr weight +/- designed specifically for the 308W in Gas guns. Be aware when PCing a bullet not designed for it the dimensions are larger. Sizing the drive bands isn't a problem but a tapered nose to fit the leade and bore as cast causes seating problems when PC'd.

[SEOkie]

I'm digesting all the good advice. I appreciate everyone's time.

I am most interested in trying the 30 XCB. I don't see them on MBW or anyone else's site. Is there any known source of these bullets? Do any you sell small quantities, or is that too much of a liability issue?

[charlie b]

FYI, when powder coated I have to load the XCB's deep. OAL is only 2.55" and the gas check is well below the neck of the case.

[SEOkie]

FYI, when powder coated I have to load the XCB's deep. OAL is only 2.55" and the gas check is well below the neck of the case.

Is that because the extra thickness of the PC pushes the bullet too far into the lands? What is the "jump" at that length?

My AR's and Rem 700 have very long throats. Checking with several different bullets from 150-180gr gives .150-.200 jump if seated to the length of the neck. If seated to the lands that would puts max COAL at in the range of 2.890.

[Larry Gibson]

An OAL of 2.890 would probably exceed the max length to fit in the magazine. In my .308Ws, including my M1A w/M14 barrel, I use OALs of 2.645 - 2.687. That keeps the GC inside the neck. The shorter length has the GGC top at the case shoulder/neck junction.

The 30 XCB was designed for a 30-06 length neck but does work very well in .308W length necks.

[charlie b]

Yes, it is caused by the PC at least in part. I don't know if the throat is short or not. It is a factory Savage. The bullets are jam fit into the lands. For reference, jacketed bullets I use all seat at book OAL or longer.

[oldblinddog]

An OAL of 2.890 would probably exceed the max length to fit in the magazine. In my .308Ws, including my M1A w/M14 barrel, I use OALs of 2.645 - 2.687. That keeps the GC inside the neck. The shorter length has the GGC top at the case shoulder/neck junction.

The 30 XCB was designed for a 30-06 length neck but does work very well in .308W length necks.

For my rifles with “standard” .308 chambers, I load them to 2.680”. For the 1-17” twist rifle, which has a different throat, I load them to 2.760”. That length also works in the 1-12” M40ish which uses AICS mags.

[popper]

I've pushed 145gr PB to 2100 in 1:10 AR BO carbine. Special alloy, coated and MOA @ 100. 2400 fps for AR10 1:10 carbine did MOA @ 200. The bullet you show won't work. I use my versions (kinda copied it for the BO 145gr) of the Accurate 31-165A. My 24" barrel does 2700 but dang that thing is heavy. Haven't tried the XCB or 266 (IIRC that one is kinda a bore rider and could be problematic in S.S.), assume they will work. Quality of your cast bullets will make a big difference so don't expect to much at first.

[SEOkie]

Well, I have somewhat cooled off on my pursuit of casting rifle bullets. It seems there is way more to casting and shooting rifle bullets than I originally thought. You folks answered my questions, and your recommendations were most helpful. I am putting this on the second or third burner for now as I don't wish to give it a half hearted effort.

I'm overhauling my 700 now. Giving it a new bedded stock. My best measurement has it at a 12 twist so I think it might be my choice to work with cast bullets anyway.

I'll follow the forum and keep mulling this over. Thanks again.

[oldblinddog]

Which version of the 700 do you have? Is it the Varmint with a heavy barrel. If you already stated that, sorry, I missed it.

[SEOkie]

Which version of the 700 do you have? Is it the Varmint with a heavy barrel. If you already stated that, sorry, I missed it.

Yes, I have the 700 SPS. 26" heavy barrel. I checked the twist with a cleaning rod multiple times and determined 1:12.

[Thumbcocker]

That should be a great boolit slinger

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[oldblinddog]

Yes, I have the 700 SPS. 26" heavy barrel. I checked the twist with a cleaning rod multiple times and determined 1:12.

It is indeed 1-12”. I have one as well. Or, I should say my son does. I gave it to him.

The 30 XCB will work very well in that rifle.