accurate no7 in the 30-30

[cr445671]

So I thought the pistol powder I had was aa5, which as I understand it is not suitable for use in 30-30, but it turns out it's aa7, which I have found some data on @gmdr.com. I was just wondering if anyone has any more data for this powder in 30-30 or used it for your plain based bullets (what charge/results?).

link to only numbers I've found: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

thanks in advance for any help,
Clint

[Tar Heel]

Accurate #7 is a handgun powder. I have not seen it listed for the 30-30 in any Accurate Reloading Manual - EVER. I have the printed Manual #1 and upwards. Just because it is listed somewhere else does not mean it is safe to use. If you want a reduced load, use Trail Boss.

https://shop.hodgdon.com/sites/www/files/2020-08/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018.pdf

[cr445671]

Accurate #7 is a handgun powder. I have not seen it listed for the 30-30 in any Accurate Reloading Manual - EVER. I have the printed Manual #1 and upwards. Just because it is listed somewhere else does not mean it is safe to use. If you want a reduced load, use Trail Boss.

https://shop.hodgdon.com/sites/www/files/2020-08/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018.pdf

Honestly I would but as i understand it you can't get much more than 1000fps with it.

[racepres]

Sell that AA#7 to a 9mm guy... It works a treat... get ya some Unique for yer 30-30... or...others will tell ya the correct way to go...
like 4227!!!

[JohnH]

Once upon a time this was a very good board for casters and shooters working outside the box. I find that is not so true today. I've used a lot of the data on the site you reference. What many don't seem to know about that site is that they were working in conjunction with RCBS in developing their software. I don't want to say the venture failed, I'm not sure why it was not followed through on, I suspect other load development software took the stage.

That said, I've never had issue with the data found there and I would strongly suggest reading this article by the author of the site http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Finally, loading pistol powders in rifle cases has been a common practice for many decades but requires a high level of inspection to insure against double charges. While the practice of "charge case immediatey seat bullet" is often touted, I would strongly recommend against it. I ruined a barrel following that practice. There is no way to insure the charged case is not double charged. When loading on a single stage case, I place all uncharged cases in a bowl. This way they cannot stand up with powder in them and it is obvious at a glance they are not in a loading block. This bowl goes on the right side of the press or charging station. Charged cases go in a block on the left side of the press/charging station. After all cases have been charged a marked dowel (I use the stem from a tire pressure gauge for this) is inserted into each case to check the fill volume. Anything under or over charged is immediately obvious.

For most of my loading I use a progressive press, even that of rifle cases i charge with pistol powder. The press in an auto advance press, which aids immensely in preventing double charges. I also use a powder fill sensing tool https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/daa-magnetic-powder-check and anything that seems supicious to me gets a weigh check. The sensor is not an absolute necessity, but each case must be checked, an empty die station following the powder measure station where the check dowel can be used works, again anything that is suspect must be checked. I had my incident about 20 years into my reloading time, I've been at it about 35 now, so I've either resolved the issue or have another coming up in about 5 more years. I work diligently to keep it resolved.

Reloading is dangerous and many mishaps can occur, from inadvertently using the wrong powder, to mixing powders (usually a result of having two or more powers on the bench at the same time) the use of a heavier bullet than that for the load may be used. A scale may not be properly set. All of these things we guard against by adding inspection measures. Using pistol powders in rifle cases or even surplus data for which there is no tested data all require a higher level of attention to detail and safety than we might otherwise use in other hobbies. I trust GMDR's data, it was published knowing that others would use it and is a giant step removed from Billy Bob recommending Bubba's Pi$$!** Hot Load. It is much more akin to all that data Lyman has published using pistol powders in rifle cases literally longer than I've been alive, and if you notice, lots of that is published without pressure data.

[cr445671]

I'd love to grab some unique , 2400, 4895, or 4198, prob is I can't find any around town and I don't think the hazmat shipping charge is worth it for just 1#, which is all I could afford.

I think I'll give the gmdr data a go, they sure did report a giant group at the velocities I was hoping for though... hopefully my rifle likes it better

[JohnH]

I saw the same large groups with TiteGroup, but my rifle shoots groups with it the same size as it shoots with Red Dot. Lymans "Best group" is notorious for not being such. Shooting is the proof in the puddin'

[racepres]

I'd love to grab some unique , 2400, 4895, or 4198, prob is I can't find any around town and I don't think the hazmat shipping charge is worth it for just 1#, which is all I could afford.

I think I'll give the gmdr data a go, they sure did report a giant group at the velocities I was hoping for though... hopefully my rifle likes it better

I will take a small bit of time tomorrow to relate pistol powder in 30-30 experiences... certainly will Not be but a Fly on the Bulls Ass... but... I can only share my experience...

I do appreciate your circumstance...and will try to assist!!!

[charlie b]

I have used a lot of the date from GMDR for reduced loads in my .308 (I use .30-30 data) and for my .30-06.

There are tons of reduced loads out there you won't find in any manuals. CE Harris has several in his article about military rifles and cast bullets. From the 'mouse fart' to the 1000fps range. It is just a ton of fun to shoot cast bullets at lower velocities.

The only powders that may not work as well are those like 296/H110. Note: Hodgdon says it is not dangerous to download them, just that they are inconsistent. Again, look back at the GMDR data for powders that might work for you.

[cr445671]

Found a pound of w231 in town today so i went ahead and grabbed it. I've seen a handful of threads on it, not many accuracy reports though so fingers crossed, currently planning on using the gmdr data for it, worst case its something else I can use to load for my 9mm's.

Thank you much to all y'all for chiming in, def appreciate the help.

@racepres, looking forward to it!

[DonHowe]

If you want a reduced load, use Trail Boss.

https://shop.hodgdon.com/sites/www/files/2020-08/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018.pdf

Respectfully, where have you been sir? Most cast bullet rifle shooting for the last century had been done with handgun powders. Accurate 7 and 9 have seen considerable use in ASSRA cast bullet competition, more commonly in small cases but also in cases up to .32-40/.30-30 size. Some shooters have used W296 and H110 successfully in "reduced" loads.

[charlie b]

Forgot. Some combinations are sensitive to the load. For example...180gn Lee bullets and Blue Dot in the .308. 7gn was ok, 2-3" groups and around 1100fps. 8gn was great, 1-2" groups and 1200fps. 9gn was horrible, 4" and larger groups at about 1300fps. By the sound of the shot, the 8gn load was supersonic and the 7gn load was not. Altitude here is 4500ft and dry.

But, this may be due to Blue Dot. That powder has some strange characteristics, even in magnum pistol loads.

I have some Titegroup I may try next as GMDR shows some promising results at lower velocities. I have tried 700X but it was not better than Blue Dot.

[gwpercle]

I don't see any data for 30-30 and Acc #7 in my two Western Powders Loading Guides , editions 6.0 and 7.0 .
I would contact Western Powders ...this was their web address www.westernpowders.com
I understand Western has been bought by Hodgdon and not 100% sure this is still valid address...
but a request to Western Powders should yield the correct data . Be sure to include you boolit weight and construction (lead , plated etc) for a proper answer .
Gary

[44Blam]

AA7 is great powder - I use this in 40 S&W, 7.62x25 tok, and 357 sig.

BUT I did a quick check on quick loads and with a 147 grain boolit, it looks like 12-15 grain aught to get you 1600-1800 fps with about a 40% or so case fill. So maybe a little dacron will keep that all down by the primer?

Use this at your own risk - quickloads isn't perfect by any means, but in my experience I go by the Modern Lee Reloading book and then tweak with Quickloads. When they do not align, I defer to the book. Obviously, there is no book load for this... So - USE THIS INFO AT YOUR OWN RISK (maybe start at 10 grain and see if you get a dirty 1400 fps, then 12 and see if it cleans up at around 1600 fps...)

294372

[cr445671]

AA7 is great powder - I use this in 40 S&W, 7.62x25 tok, and 357 sig.

BUT I did a quick check on quick loads and with a 147 grain boolit, it looks like 12-15 grain aught to get you 1600-1800 fps with about a 40% or so case fill. So maybe a little dacron will keep that all down by the primer?

Use this at your own risk - quickloads isn't perfect by any means, but in my experience I go by the Modern Lee Reloading book and then tweak with Quickloads. When they do not align, I defer to the book. Obviously, there is no book load for this... So - USE THIS INFO AT YOUR OWN RISK (maybe start at 10 grain and see if you get a dirty 1400 fps, then 12 and see if it cleans up at around 1600 fps...)

294372

Do you think you could run that again with a 170gr bullet and repost? Not sure if it has the option for the updated ranch dog, but that's what I'm using, just from Arsenal molds so dropping a tiny bit heavier. If it has the option to check w231 I'd really appreciate having that one too, it and aa7 are my two available pistol powders.

[44Blam]

Do you think you could run that again with a 170gr bullet and repost? Not sure if it has the option for the updated ranch dog, but that's what I'm using, just from Arsenal molds so dropping a tiny bit heavier. If it has the option to check w231 I'd really appreciate having that one too, it and aa7 are my two available pistol powders.

I don't have a bullet quite like that, but the 180 grain RWS HMK is a round nosey kind of bullet - littler heavier at 180 grain. But here you go:
Still, I would start off with like 10 grain with dacron holding that powder down on the primer. Then move up. AA7 is a pretty fast powder, but it does look like you can get a good 1500-1600 fps load and maybe dial it down to something like 1000-1200 for plinking.

294416

[cr445671]

Alright so I got to the range today. I ended up going with the w231 powder over aa7, I trust gmdr's data but I've just found way more anecdotes on w231 and since I managed to find a pound it seemed the thing to use.

Ended up not shooting near as many rounds as I planned though since I was getting results that I felt fell too far outside of what gmdr said to expect. (Same weight bullet, sized to .311 for micro-groove barrel, 92/6/2 air cooled alloy)

First 6 rounds I loaded with 9grs with expected velocity from gmdr @1363. Actual velocities were 1411, 1414, 1388, and 1431 (chronograph error on first two shots).

From there I moved to the batch with 9.5grs and I stopped after the third shot. Expected velocity from gmdr for not 9.5 but 10grs was 1444. Velocities I got from the 9.5gr load were 1471, 1474, and 1494. When the 1494 popped up I figured I should stop and check with y'all and see what you think.

As a side note, despite the setback I sure did enjoy shooting these rounds, sounded like a 22 and almost no recoil, they seemed fairly accurate too. I would appreciate tips on reducing leading though, it seemed like I was getting a bunch of it with all my cast I shot today, though to be honest I don't have any way of knowing whether what I was seeing and cleaning out is just what color bore I should expect with cast since I've never shot or known anyone who shoots it (I'm using a RD clone mold at 170grs and sized to .311, 92/6/2 alloy, air cooled, 45/45/10 lube, leading seemed to show whether gas checked at 2000 and 1750fps, or these reduced loads here).

[cr445671]

Bump for advise, that last shot with 9.5grs really did make me a bit nervous.

[JohnH]

That's not out of line and is acceptable as differences between a combination of differences in rifles and manufacturing lot of powder. Most pistol powder loads are going to max out between 1600 and 1700 fps. That's not to say you can't reach max pressures before that velocity area. Keep a very sharp eye on how easily the gun opens after each shot and the primer appearance. Judging pressure by primer appearance is not a reliable method. What is reliable is when the primers go from having rounded corners at the primer pocket edge and being flattened. Typically but not always with a lever gun, you'll notice sticky extraction, difficulty opening the action before seeing primers that have been excessively flattened.

It is not unusual with low pressure loads for the primer to be a little proud of the case head after firing. On firing, the primer will back out of the case and is held in place by the bolt face. As pressures increase the primer is "flattened" or perhaps better yet the radius at the edge of the primer cup is reduced. As the pressure builds, the case head will be forced back against the bolt face reseating the primer. This can give you some understanding of the pressure ranges you are seeing, but can be somewhat dependent on the chamber condition, if it's dry, if it's oily, if the cases are dry, and the like. So all of these factors are things to consider as you are working with these or any other loads.

Shooting reduced velocity loads is more a search for accuracy than it is a search for velocity. That does not mean you cannot have both, but I will load up until the accuracy fades and then step back down. A favorite load in past was the Lee 312185 and 11 grains of 5744 in a Savage 340 I owned. Load only made ~1100 fos but it was stupid accurate and often regularly gave half dollar size 10 shot groups at 100 yards. A current play load is 6.5 grains of Red Dot with a copy of the Lyman 311299 (200 grains) in 7.62x39. Clocks a whopping 1070 from a CZ 452 but at 50 yards is a 1" shooter all day, it's great for banging away on steel plates off hand. 10 graains of Unique in a 25-06 gave me 1530 fps with the RCBS 257120. Antoher good load from my 30-30 is the RCBS 30150 CM with 6.5 grains of Red Dot. I don't know what the velocity is, but it's accurate and fun to shoot. The point of all this is that max velocity is not necessarily the driving point for low velocity cast bullet loads, accuracy and fun is. That is not to say that one can get higher velocities from cast, one most certainly can but in 30-30 to do that you are going to want to use powders more suitable to use with jacketed bullets. I liken low velocity loads using pistol powder to being more like 357 magnum revolver velocities and they give a satisfying whack on a steel plate rather than the tink of a 22LR.

[cr445671]

Thanks a bunch, wasn't sure if that increase was something I should worry about of not.

And yah I'm not nessisarily hoping to push it with these, though if I could get them reliably somewhere around 1500 and accurate I do think it would be fun to hunt with 'em, might stick with the gc'ed ones at jacketed velocity for that though, still not sure, i guess it'll depend on how confident I get with shots at various distances.

[DonHowe]

Regarding loading reduced charges of powder and avoiding double-charging cases:
When I started reloading pistol/revolver cartridges for Bullseye competition I learned some things from old hands which have served me well ever since. The powder charges (Bullseye, Red Dot) were as little as 2.7gr (.38Spl) and 3.7gr in .45acp. With these charges there was easily room in either case for double charges of fast-burning powder.
The method I learned was/is to place all charged cases in a loading block then visually inspect the whole block of charged cases under bright llight, observing each case while doing so. A double-charged case or an empty case will be obvious. I use this method with rifle cartridges also and it has served me well.

Reloading is serious business and should be given ALL one's attention. It should not be done in haste tho as with anything, practice does increase speed but in my opinion safetyand precision should over ride speed.
Concerning the use of Trail Boss for reduced loads, that is what it was designed for - in big revolver cartridges where one would run out of powder space before going over pressure limits. But my research leads me to believe that in larger rifle cases one can go over pressure with Trail Boss and still have low velocity.

[AK_Salmon]

DonHowe’s method is what I also use, except with a small flashlight, which lets you see into the case better. I have all charged cases in the loading block, inspecting all for powder in one step.

I worry more about partial charges and no charges, especially if you shoot IPSC or such, where there’s always a rush to get the next shot off.

I adopted this method, because 30 years ago I had no powder in a 44 mag reload being shot in a revolver. Fortunately, the primer only had enough oomph to lodge the bullet into the forcing cone area, and didn’t allow the cylinder to rotate. There were three twenty-somethings shooting out on the farm, and if it had made it into the barrel, with all the distractions around, I probably would have pulled the hammer back and let the next one fly. Every time I remember that day, my stomach tightens up.

Sometimes we avoid disaster through luck — hopefully, we learn from it. I hope all have a safe 2022!