New .32 Rimless Cartridge

[376Steyr]

Federal, the people who gave you the 9mm Rimmed, proudly present the new "30 Super Carry" cartridge: https://www.federalpremium.com/30supercarry.html

.312 diameter, 100 grain JHP at an advertised 1250 fps. 12 of them will fit in the space that ten 9mm cartridges can occupy.

Smith and Wesson will host the first guns for it: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/01/07/federal-30-super-carry/

Anybody want to take any bets that it will chamber and fire in the French 1935A? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistolet_automatique_mod%C3%A8le_1935A :twisted:

[Thumbcocker]

Will it chamber in a Peterson device?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

Federal, the people who gave you the 9mm Rimmed, proudly present the new "30 Super Carry" cartridge: https://www.federalpremium.com/30supercarry.html

.312 diameter, 100 grain JHP at an advertised 1250 fps. 12 of them will fit in the space that ten 9mm cartridges can occupy.


https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/01/07/federal-30-super-carry/

Anybody want to take any bets that it will chamber and fire in the French 1935A? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistolet_automatique_mod%C3%A8le_1935A :twisted:

At 50,000 psi the result will be similar to firing the 9mm Federal in an H&R Owl Head top break.
Can you spell KABOOM!

[cwtebay]

Will it chamber in a Peterson device?

Sent from my SM-G960U using TapatalkI thought the same thing about the Pederson device! As well as in 32 French Longue chambered pistols and SMG's.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

Can anyone find the cartridge dimensions? Is it rimless, or semi-rimmed like a 32acp? If it is semi-rimmed, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

[JohnH]

Anyone else rad about this and think "Modern 7.62x25 Tokarev?"

[megasupermagnum]

Anyone else rad about this and think "Modern 7.62x25 Tokarev?"

Not even a little. A big bottle neck case that doesn't even fit in a 1911 vs a straight wall case that fits in sub-compact pistols with ease.

[cwtebay]

0.312"x 0.754" case dimensions. (EDIT: 0.827" case length per Outposts patent drawing)
Definitely less case capacity than the Tokarev (0.312'x0.984" and a bottle neck cartridge), possibly less than the 30 Pederson / 32 French Longue (0.309'x 0.776"). Possibly a very high velocity round (relative to size) and its potential for carry guns is incredible.
I personally look forward to seeing this round in production and already placed an order for the Shield. Perhaps a flash in the pan, but dang it looks fun!


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[mcdaniel.mac]

Rimless, straight walled.

I'm here for .32 H&R Magnum Rimless in a Glock, absolutely.

[megasupermagnum]

Rimless, straight walled.

I'm here for .32 H&R Magnum Rimless in a Glock, absolutely.

That's a real shame. That one small detail makes the difference between this being a standalone cartridge, basically a 9mm luger with an extra 2 in the magazine, where it could have been a 32 ACP super, fired in 327 federal revolvers.

[reddog81]

.312 diameter, 100 grain JHP at an advertised 1250 fps. 12 of them will fit in the space that ten 9mm cartridges can occupy.:

My Sig P365 can hold 10 or 12 rounds depending on which magazine I use…. I prefer the 12 round mag since it gives a rest for the pinky finger. The current crop of micro 9mm’s will eat this new cartridge and it’s guns for breakfast.

They are trying to market it as something special because it was developed for carry guns and not with law enforcement or military in mind. Of course they realize not a single law enforcement agency would have any interest in the round and any military would laugh at them if they tried and push it on them.

[P Flados]

It looks like they may have fallen into the same trap that made the 327 less popular than it should have been. A huge percentage of 327 guns that are shot on a regular basis run loads closer to 32 H&R pressures than 327 pressures (mine certainly does). Muzzle blast above a certain threshold is a real turn off to most shooters.

Given that they want to claim the round performs "as good as" "better" than existing rounds, they probably allowed for a very high chamber pressure and most likely a very high muzzle pressure. It is the high muzzle pressure that is generally responsible for most of the muzzle blast. Muzzle blast much more than the 9 mm will turn off many that would otherwise like the round.

I have discussed the opportunity for a "32 Super" a number of times on a number of forums. If they want to avoid the problem of bad muzzle blast, the secret would be to use a fast powder to get a high chamber pressure with a muzzle pressure real close to the 9 mm. With the smaller powder charge and a muzzle pressure not much more than the 9 mm, the blast would be comparable. Then just let the performance fall where it falls. With good bullets, this would be very adequate. There is no need to be "as good as" or "better" than the 9 mm.

[376Steyr]

Rimless, straight walled.

I'm here for .32 H&R Magnum Rimless in a Glock, absolutely.

I'm going to hold out for a 8-shot Ruger Blackhawk. A Super Blackhawk, with a squared trigger guard, that tips the scales at over 50 ounces.

[megasupermagnum]

It looks like they may have fallen into the same trap that made the 327 less popular than it should have been. A huge percentage of 327 guns that are shot on a regular basis run loads closer to 32 H&R pressures than 327 pressures (mine certainly does). Muzzle blast above a certain threshold is a real turn off to most shooters.

Given that they want to claim the round performs "as good as" "better" than existing rounds, they probably allowed for a very high chamber pressure and most likely a very high muzzle pressure. It is the high muzzle pressure that is generally responsible for most of the muzzle blast. Muzzle blast much more than the 9 mm will turn off many that would otherwise like the round.

I have discussed the opportunity for a "32 Super" a number of times on a number of forums. If they want to avoid the problem of bad muzzle blast, the secret would be to use a fast powder to get a high chamber pressure with a muzzle pressure real close to the 9 mm. With the smaller powder charge and a muzzle pressure not much more than the 9 mm, the blast would be comparable. Then just let the performance fall where it falls. With good bullets, this would be very adequate. There is no need to be "as good as" or "better" than the 9 mm.

I don't think that is a fair assessment. I think the 327 became most of what it should be. It's still as much, and likely more popular now than ever. It would probably help if S&W actually gave it a real shot. I always felt that they should market the 32's more for the wide range of ammo. Just the common ones being 32 ACP, 32 S&W long, 32 h&r, and 327 federal, all in the same revolver. You can still get 32 s&w (short version) easy enough. If they had made this 30 super carry semi-rimmed, they could have added it to the long list. Can you imagine how cool it would be if they marketed a semi-auto pistol that could shoot both the intended 30 super carry, and 32 acp?

None of these were ever destined to become super popular. I do wish more was done with them. I wish 327 federal was pushed more as a hunting round. The GP100 and Single 7 are certainly good hunting guns. Ruger is squandering the SP101 by not offering it more as a field model, the main problem being nobody has ever made a decent sized grip for it. Honestly for the average guy, the best is the LCR in 327 federal. It's a tiny little revolver, great for pocket carry, and in 327 gives you 6 shots. It's a small difference, yes, but 5 vs 6 shots? That's a big advantage.

I disagree with the muzzle blast completely. 357 magnum is super popular. I can't tell any difference in muzzle blast between the 357 and 327. You state you would like to see a short cartridge with fast powder. Well it appears that's what the 30 super carry is. A short 32, running 50,000 psi. I'm willing to bet the muzzle blast is identical to any other magnum.

[P Flados]

MSM, I hope you are right that the 30 Super Carry muzzle blast is not unreasonable.

I know that some folks shoot full power 327 on a regular basis, but from my reading of forums posting, more do not. If 32 H&R and 32 long ammo were not available over the counter, much fewer (if any) 327 guns would be getting made. Yes the 327 really shines for the hand loader, but most sales are probably still to folks that just buy ammo.

As far as the 357, I also rarely load it to full power. I just do not see the need. I have bigger guns that get used if I need more power instead of running the 357 at full tilt. A big reason for the 357 magnum gun popularity was the ability to shoot mostly 38s and reserve 357 for minimal use "when needed".

Now in 357 Maximum, I run my IHMSA loads at full power. Yes there is substantial blast, but there is a real need for the load to be as hot as it is.

With the 30 Super Carry being used in autoloaders, they will not be nearly as flexible as the 357 mag or the 327 Fed. As such, I worry that over the counter "practice ammo" will not be that much "milder" than the full power SD loads and both will get labelled as "not fun" to shoot. Again, I hope I am wrong.

[Outpost75]

Can anyone find the cartridge dimensions? Is it rimless, or semi-rimmed like a 32acp? If it is semi-rimmed, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

Max. Cartridge drawing from the patent application. Rimless. Case length .827", Rim diameter .345, Base diameter .3425", case mouth diameter .337, Ctg. OAL 1.169. NOT same as 7.65x20 French.

294212

7.62x20 French Longue for comparison:

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page13.pdf

[megasupermagnum]

MSM, I hope you are right that the 30 Super Carry muzzle blast is not unreasonable.

I know that some folks shoot full power 327 on a regular basis, but from my reading of forums posting, more do not. If 32 H&R and 32 long ammo were not available over the counter, much fewer (if any) 327 guns would be getting made. Yes the 327 really shines for the hand loader, but most sales are probably still to folks that just buy ammo.

As far as the 357, I also rarely load it to full power. I just do not see the need. I have bigger guns that get used if I need more power instead of running the 357 at full tilt. A big reason for the 357 magnum gun popularity was the ability to shoot mostly 38s and reserve 357 for minimal use "when needed".

Now in 357 Maximum, I run my IHMSA loads at full power. Yes there is substantial blast, but there is a real need for the load to be as hot as it is.

With the 30 Super Carry being used in autoloaders, they will not be nearly as flexible as the 357 mag or the 327 Fed. As such, I worry that over the counter "practice ammo" will not be that much "milder" than the full power SD loads and both will get labelled as "not fun" to shoot. Again, I hope I am wrong.

The muzzle blast can't be any worse than the 357 magnum or 327 federal, I have no worries there. I just watched a video of a Federal guy shooting some American Eagle, which is supposed to be a 100gr at 1250 fps, likely the same exact 100gr SP used in 327 federal (AE load does about 1625 fps in a 5" barrel), and there was nothing remarkable about the noise or blast. No giant fireball, or boom.

I'm not really sure a lower power round is all that necessary for this. Recoil should be about like 9mm luger, and most people shoot full power ball ammo in that. This is an area I think they had crazy potential though. A semi-auto pistol shooting more than one round is unheard of, besides a barrel/slide/magazine swap. If they had, assuming they didn't, made this 30 super carry a semi-rim, and could also shoot a 32 acp with no changes other than maybe a special magazine follower, they would really have something.

It will never compete with the old guys like 9mm, 45 acp, etc. but if they made a semi-auto round that fits in a sub-compact, and adds 2 round capacity, plus can shoot 32 acp, and on top of that, all of them could be shot in a 327 federal revolver. Both are Federal rounds. It's a no brainer. I'm not sure how people feel about shooting a 32 acp in a long chamber, but being a semi-rim, I think it would work. 32 acp ammo is common enough, most stores have it. Having that capability would be HUGE.

[Gray Fox]

Here we are in an environment where we cannot get even common brass to load and Federal comes out with a new round that even most well stocked gun retailers (if there are any) will probably hesitate to order while awaiting the guns to be available to fire it. Yes, Federal, explain to us again why you cannot deliver common, much sought after, ammo to us. GF

[megasupermagnum]

Max. Cartridge drawing from the patent application. Rimless. Case length .827", Rim diameter .345, Base diameter .3425", case mouth diameter .337, Ctg. OAL 1.169. NOT same as 7.65x20 French.

294212

7.62x20 French Longue for comparison:

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page13.pdf

Dang it, they are this close to it being fantastic. Make the head .338" like the rest of the 32's, and make the rim .358" like a 32 ACP, and you have a blockbuster cartridge.

[Outpost75]

0.312"x 0.754" case dimensions....

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Negative. Refer to drawing from patent application which I posted.

[P Flados]

Ok, they are saying 1250 fps from a 0.312" 100 gr and the case is supposedly 0.827" long. Sounds like "running the numbers" is in order.

I ran Quickload with a 32 acp stretched to 0.827 and 1.169 OAL. I got there with a 4" barrel, 4.65 grs of AA 5. Chamber pressure was 55,800, muzzle pressure was 5640 psi. It looks like they did go for a combination with high chamber pressure and "typical" muzzle pressure.

The above muzzle pressure is actually real close to what Quickload shows for 124 gr bullets in full pressure 9mm.

[35remington]

Due to rim lock and other issues I am not terribly surprised they chose to make a new cartridge rimless rather than semi rimmed. Seems to be a logical move. Due to substantial power differences I doubt reliable cycling could be had in some instances when shooting 32 ACP equivalent loads.

[megasupermagnum]

Due to rim lock and other issues I am not terribly surprised they chose to make a new cartridge rimless rather than semi rimmed. Seems to be a logical move. Due to substantial power differences I doubt reliable cycling could be had in some instances when shooting 32 ACP equivalent loads.

I don't think you are wrong, but both can be overcome with good engineering. If you are going to come out with a brand new cartridge like this, you really shouldn't be taking the easy way out.

[35remington]

I am thinking a gun that reliably cycles 32 ACP equivalent would get beat to death running 32 Super. The reciprocating mass and spring strength would both be too light for gun reliability and longevity. Since nobody has introduced a semi rimmed cartridge for autoloader use in many years I would suppose using a rimless case is the logical way out.

[Idaho45guy]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/new-for-2022-30-super-carry/

"In gel-penetration testing through heavy clothing conducted by Federal Premium, 30 Super Carry HST loads performed on par with similar loads in 9 mm Luger and dramatically outperformed .380 ACP loads in the same test. In terms of shooting experience, the new round is said to create perceived recoil similar to an equivalent-weight 9 mm Luger load and muzzle flash similar to 9 mm Luger."

[Daekar]

I would be interested in seeing what a modern 1911 in this cartridge is like....

[cwtebay]

Negative. Refer to drawing from patent application which I posted.You are correct, I even got my info from the Federal page.

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[sharps4590]

Here we are in an environment where we cannot get even common brass to load and Federal comes out with a new round that even most well stocked gun retailers (if there are any) will probably hesitate to order while awaiting the guns to be available to fire it. Yes, Federal, explain to us again why you cannot deliver common, much sought after, ammo to us. GF


This pretty much sums it up. ^^ Seems another answer to a question never asked.

[ddixie884]

I am eager to see what they manage to make out of it. Or is it just Federal's better idea. They won;t even discuss a .41spl......

[shooting on a shoestring]

The cartridge looks COOL!
It’s a modern high pressure cartridge that takes advantage of modern materials technology, not limited by 100 year old guns. That’s the best thing about 327 Fed. I’m glad to see it! This should be a hoot to load and shoot.

I’m wondering if it’ll need small rifle primers? 50k is the MAP so if I’m playing with it I’ll probably be somewhere in the 40-45k range at least and maybe knock on the door of 50k. That’s serious rifle pressure! I’ll bet small pistol primers would flow like water right around a firing pin at that pressure.

Brass is going to be hard to find from both retail and when it lands waaaayyyyyy over there somewhere.
But at 50k psi I’ll bet the reloading life is pretty short.

Guns….hmmmm….?
I’m not a Shield fan.
I’m not a Nighthawk kind of guy either.
I want this in a common 1911 like Ruger, Springfield, Sig, Kimber or S&W.
Or….Sig 226, Hi Power clone.
And I want it in small gun like Sig 365.

Hope it stays on the market long enough for me to get one.

[BP Dave]

Where can I find some of this brass? I have a project.

[kenton]

A semi rimmed version would be a bad idea for the same reason the 9mm rimmed was a bad idea. Someone would surely drop one in grandpa's ole 32s&w long and split the cylinder in half and maim themselves or the person next to them.

That is why we can't have nice things.

Also I know I have a weak spot between my ears, but I would love to see a PC carbine chambered in this round.

[GhostHawk]

Ding ding ding we have a winner! "Also I know I have a weak spot between my ears, but I would love to see a PC carbine chambered in this round."

Me too.

[Bigslug]

Given that they want to claim the round performs "as good as" "better" than existing rounds, they probably allowed for a very high chamber pressure and most likely a very high muzzle pressure. It is the high muzzle pressure that is generally responsible for most of the muzzle blast. Muzzle blast much more than the 9 mm will turn off many that would otherwise like the round.


Run 130-147 grain 9mm's at subsonic speeds, and get the same or better terminal effect. Muzzle blast problem solved.

I figured this round would get a little more enthusiastic welcome among the casters than it seems to be receiving out in the rest of the world. If you're a total miser with your powder and lead, or are tinkering with various rook rifle concepts, I get it. For what they're pitching it for, I fail to see any attraction - - especially at a time when people are happy with 9mm, seeking 9mm handguns, AND HAVING TROUBLE FINDING 9MM AMMO!

[Mytmousemalibu]

I think this is kinda neat and I like the idea of it. I absolutely understand why this is a rimless case for all the reasons mentioned above. While there are a handful of guys like us that might have preferred a semi-rim or a change in dimensions so we can do whatever with it, we are small potatoes and catering to those desires isn't a hill of beans to Federal or S&W. They have a real fight to get a foothold in the market with a new pistol cartridge and they are going to capitalize on their best chances to do it. This new package probably not going to appeal to the brand new gun buyer so much. Probably not so much for the guy that has a large collection and resources. As their naming convention implies, this is a compact carry deal, thats the target audience, the most likely to go for it, it's cut for that fitment. Perhaps edging a little bit closer to having your cake and eating it too as far as the balance of capacity, energy, and recoil.
If you spend time around or pay attention to the concealed carry market, all the rage has been for micro compact 9mm's with 10+ capacity, light weight, small, reliable guns. The SIG P365 set this into motion and rode off into the sunset with it leaving all the other brands in a panic. Furthermore if new handguns aren't coming out optics ready, or with options, they are behind the curve.

I like the concept, I'd love to try it and potentially get something in this cartridge but not in the Shield. I got to play with S&W's other new gun yesterday, the CSX.
I like it, I think it would be a more appropriate platform than the Shield but I understand the choice.

[SSGOldfart]

I would be interested in seeing what a modern 1911 in this cartridge is like....

Same here[smilie=1::roll:[smilie=1:

[P Flados]

Actually with the current shortage of guns & ammo makes it to where retail outlets and LGS are likely to order this gun and ammo if they are available at distributors. If you are having a hard time keeping your shelves and display cases full, some are willing to take what they can get.

And I see some good marketing points with "the new round is said to create perceived recoil similar to an equivalent-weight 9 mm Luger load and muzzle flash similar to 9 mm Luger." The more I look at the round and the info being provided, the better I like the round.

As far as reloading, I ran Quickload and could not get their 1250 fps with a 100 gr at 50,000 psi with a 4" barrel and any powder in the Quickload database. AA 5 gave the best velocity, so that burn rate is where reloaders would want to focus. They are either "fudging" and quoting speed in an over length barrel and/or are using a "custom" powder (the 327 also has some factory ammo that is hard to duplicate with available powders). For the reloader, decent good functioning ammo with a little less velocity should work just fine and yes I am betting that rifle primers will be recommended (as is true for the 327 and a couple of other high pressure handgun rounds). If a little less recoil is desired with the smaller guns this will be offered in, adequate performance should be available with bullets in the 75 - 85 gr range.

[megasupermagnum]

What I'm trying to say, and apparently not communicating properly, is that Federal should have worked with someone to develop the gun for this, not the other way around. The problem is most of you are thinking in old technology. If they had introduced a pistol that could fire both 32 acp and this 30 super carry, in a pistol with a new method of cycling beyond a simple spring and recoil, then this would be HUGE. Don't tell me it can't be done. The only valid reason I've heard is that if you put this in any revolver other than a 327 federal, bad things could happen. While absolutely correct, we can't just keep extending cartridges until the end of time. At some point we are going to have to figure something else out. In this case we have a cartridge that is for semi-auto's, and is called 30 super carry. In no way would someone inadvertently mistake this for any other 32. Couple that with a nice big warning label on a box of ammo to not use them in a revolver, and you are as stupid proof as you can get. If we got rid of every cartridge that could possibly be fired in another gun, we'd have about 6 calibers left.

A question came up about brass life. I see no reason at all this wouldn't be just as good as 327 federal, which brass life is just fine. Since I switched to Federal brass, I'm on my 4th loading on one set with not a single lost case yet. I doubt case life will be like 45 acp, but that's the nature of the beast with a hotrod. As for primers, I'm sure they will spec rifle primers. At 50,000 PSI a Federal 100 small pistol primer will be flat and show cratering. Something like a CCI 550 small pistol magnum will also likely show some flattening, but it might not be that bad.

So now that I talked about what the 30 super carry could have been, I'd like to revise my opinion now that I know better what it really is. I think it is stupid, and this is coming from a big time 32 fan, except by being rimless it has effectively been separated from the other 32's. It is a one-off cartridge. It probably has some potential in the sub-compact guns, but that's not what it is being released in. The M&P sheild EZ is a normal sized gun, and in 9mm luger holds 9. In 30 super carry it holds 11. The Nighthawk custom President in 9mm luger says it holds "10". I'm going to assume that is 9+1. I find no info about 30 super carry, but I'm going to assume it is 12 (11+1). I was very excited when 327 federal came out in the LCR. Going from 5 to 6 rounds is a real bonus. In this case going from 10 to 12? Not as big a deal.

I kind of understand the draw for a 1911. This cartridge really puts the 1911 on par with the capacity most other new guns today, and it does that with a normal single stack frame. At the same time, I'd rather have ten 38 super's, than twelve 30 super carry's. All else equal, more capacity is better, but based on my experience, once you get to 8-10 rounds, I feel just fine. 16 to 20 rounds with one extra magazine is quite a bit of firepower. Remember this new cartridge is purely for carry purposes, not as a police or military duty round.

It's always a tough market to introduce new cartridges. I also think the timing is less than ideal, but maybe they see something we don't. Who knows. It's their money. We can choose to buy it, or not.

[Mytmousemalibu]

For what its worth regarding the high pressures this new cartridge might be living in... Standard SPP's in my personal experience handle pressures at 50,000 psi or a little more, just fine. Yes they will be flattened and can flow into the firing pin hole. Both of my Open Division race guns ate a steady diet of very hot ammo, in 47,000 to 51,000psi range (according to QL). My M&P has well over 50,000rds on it of this level 9mm since the day it was new. The vast majority of that ammo loaded with standard, plain jane Federal SPP's. The only primer that was 100% reliable because of the softness of the cup and ignition reliability. They don't come any softer. Yes the primers were flattened with some cratering, but never an issue, no pierced primers, etc. The brass really didnt care or show early symptoms of being used up. Some of it has approximately 20-25 reloads on it. Occasionally a split mouth and ive had 2-3 loose primer pockets and thats it.

Just my opinion but I honestly don't see any reason to require small rifle primers or even magnum pistols. I doubt the brass would deviate from the life expectancy of any other auto pistol brass. Recall also that this .30 Super Carry is a Federal and S&W collaboration with the 1st gun a Shield + and as the name implies, a carry/defensive use product. The striker fired Smiths are known for light strike reputation. A harder, more sturdy primer is a liability, I doubt that rifle primers are whats used.

[freakonaleash]

All I can add is "no thanks"

[35remington]

Given the minuscule popularity of 32 ACP, I rather doubt designing a rimless cartridge will make or break the popularity of the round in terms of not being able to use 32 ACP. Expecting a gun to function reliably with loads at less than half power is asking too much given the availability of an unpopular low power cartridge.

[Bigslug]

Has anybody found a velocity listing for the 115 grain CCI FMJ load?

That weight puts the sectional density on par with a 147 grain 9mm. The potential of THAT might be interesting to me; the 100 grain stuff they're putting the effort behind, not so much.

[Daekar]

I will be very interested to see what kind of performance we get out of this cartridge in a 16" to 18" barrel. Could be a real hoot.

[gpidaho]

The few places I found these pistols they were listed "out of stock" When I find one I'm buying one I'm a 32 fan I have 32 auto, 32 S&W, 32 H&R, 32-20 and a Tok Gp

[uscra112]

Well, I've read the entire thread, and all I can add is the old adage about how fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen, not fish.

[megasupermagnum]

I will be very interested to see what kind of performance we get out of this cartridge in a 16" to 18" barrel. Could be a real hoot.

Why? Why on earth would you rather have this than a 30 carbine, or a 327 federal, or even a good old 32-20?

[jblee10]

Hmm? How about an 8 shot K frame with moon clips? It would just be one more thing that is fun to play with.

[Outpost75]

Why? Why on earth would you rather have this than a 30 carbine, or a 327 federal, or even a good old 32-20?

I agree! Most versatile field gun I own is a .30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawk with barrel shortened to 5 and a quarter inches, which I can use with either .32-20 or .30 Carbine ammo. Much handier than the longer barrel and gives up very little in velocity. Can handle full snort Winchester 92 style loads in .32-20

[dverna]

It will fail.

What will case life be? And where will you get cases? No police departments will adopt it....how do you spell...DEAD DUCK?

Those of you salivating over this are advised to buy 3-4K cases when they become available. In 5 years, cases will be in short supply and expensive.

One question....what market niche does it fill? Works just as well as a 9mm...isn’t that wonderful? Well, I have five 9mm’s that use cheap brass. No need to buy something to replace them with something just as good but more expensive to shoot.

[megasupermagnum]

Hmm? How about an 8 shot K frame with moon clips? It would just be one more thing that is fun to play with.

If S&W made a K frame that held 8, and I'm not sure it could safely be done without a larger cylinder, but if they did, it would sell like hot cakes. This would bring up my earlier issue. In this K frame, the only logical choice would be 327 federal. Having the option to shoot 30 super carry in it would certainly sweeten the deal.

This is where tradition is against revolvers at the moment, as I said in the other "pendulum" thread. Such a beast could be built, but you are going to be taking a leap of faith. The old guys will shutter at the ugliness, and you will hear non-stop "solution looking for a problem". But if you actually built such a gun well, it would be a huge leap for firearm technology.

You do bring up a good point about moon clips, but it appears that Federal once again took a bad move by making the 30 super carry a tapered case. While the .3425" head MIGHT fit into a 32 chamber, it's probably best to assume it wont. If they had made it a straight wall, then they could have again opened the doors to having 327 federal revolvers made, that were cut for moon clips. They could have released a Ruger SP101 327FM/30SC, and it would be safe, with no risk of it being used in a 32 s&w long or 32 H&R accidentally. Well, if that drawing is the route they went, that door is shut.

As dverna says, it's not going to convince any 9mm shooters to buy one. They had every opportunity in the world to introduce this into the 32 world, and chose not to. The path they chose was to put a cartridge head to head with the most popular cartridge in the world, in a market saturated with pistols you can't tell apart, during an ammo shortage.

[cwtebay]

There is nothing wrong with newer, and no - newer does no equate to better.
I am trying to wrap my head around why anyone would have anything negative to say about a cartridge they haven't shot, haven't seen, haven't seen load data for, and don't even know anyone that has fired!!
WOW maybe give it a chance to at least be released! I wonder if fellas sat around in the early 1900's saying - that darn 9mm just is junk, never amount to anything, nowhere near what we already have with our 41 rimfire or 38 Colt. Or maybe a few years earlier - that darn new fangled revolver is just a passing fad, we'll be back to a single shot before you know it!
I am the absolute last person to be arguing this point with my predilection towards obscure cartridges (turned my nose up to the 350 Legend because I already have a couple 1907 Winnies that do exactly the same!) but what is wrong with something new? Something perhaps innovative with newer designs. Maybe it's not exactly in your dreams, but I applaud efforts towards better, or at least different. I am excited about it!!

Also remember - most "new and improved' lures aren't actually designed to catch more fish.....

[35remington]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T0a0IyyuHL0

Here along with the advertising spiel you can see it being shot. Appears no more blasty than 9mm given the audio effects.

[uscra112]

I visualize frantic marketing people telling top management that "we have to do something to keep our name and image in front of the consumers!!! We need a new-and-improved-something-or-other or we'll lose market share !!!!

You can guess the rest.

[Daekar]

Why? Why on earth would you rather have this than a 30 carbine, or a 327 federal, or even a good old 32-20?

If I wanted it in a semi auto that shared ammo with my carry gun? I don't have any centerfire semi auto pistols, but if I did this would be something that interested me, and I never met a PCC I didn't like.

I would much rather have a rimmed cartridge, but that's just me and my reloading preferences.

[Mk42gunner]

I also think the new S&W CSX would be the natural home for this cartridge, although I have never even seen either one.

Given the way carry guns have gone to striker fired or DA only, with very few DA/SA autos. I won't be holding my breath.

I also think it would have been better if the new round would safely fit in the new locked breech .380 pocket guns, but the 50,000 PSI being quoted doesn't make that seem very likely to me. Can you imagine a 14+1 Ruger LCP MAX that fits in your pocket?

Going head to head with a 9mm in the same sized guns does not seem like a winning proposition to me, but I have been wrong before.

Let's not forget that Federal also brought out the .32 H&R Magnum for basically the same purpose in the mid 1980's. It should have been marketed as an upgrade to the trail and kit guns in .22 and .32 S&W Long, instead of as an anti-personnel round.

We will see.

Robert

[ddixie884]

It will fail.

What will case life be? And where will you get cases? No police departments will adopt it....how do you spell...DEAD DUCK?

Those of you salivating over this are advised to buy 3-4K cases when they become available. In 5 years, cases will be in short supply and expensive.

One question....what market niche does it fill? Works just as well as a 9mm...isn’t that wonderful? Well, I have five 9mm’s that use cheap brass. No need to buy something to replace them with something just as good but more expensive to shoot.

I'm with you.........

[blue32]

Dang it, they are this close to it being fantastic. Make the head .338" like the rest of the 32's, and make the rim .358" like a 32 ACP, and you have a blockbuster cartridge.

As soon as I saw the specs I pulled out my manuals and thought the same thing. But a .312 bullet at ~1,200 fps sounds awfully familiar to an RCBS 32-98 SWC over 10 gr of 2400 in a 32-20. I just might get one because it looks like it could be a good cast candidate although I don't believe it will be commercially successful. In a pistol with a good trigger it could make a nice plinking gun. I'm wondering if it would work with the Dillon 32 auto shell holder and powder through expander die. Wouldn't be so bad if all I had to get was a sizer, seating, and crimping die aside from brass.

[Four-Sixty]

I think the 30SC has a couple things going for it.

1) Extra rounds in the compact arms. YouTubers are going to pitch this endlessly - they have a whole new cartridge to test and opine on (make videos about)
2) Federal already says it'll cost about the same as 9MM, yet it'll use less raw materials to fabricate. The 9MM ammo market is already saturated with many producers. Federal could be the only game in town for awhile. So, they'll have better pricing power and make better margins on it.
3) Can you say 40 Super Carry, 44 Super Carry, or 45 Super Carry? This is the land of $80,000 trucks with heated steering wheels that people only use to commute to work. Super Carry will just sound good to people.
4) Is there a potential for overseas markets where military calibers are not permitted? It's not a military caliber, but boasts the performance of one.
5) There is an opportunity to make 6 shot carry revolvers. Smith and Wesson, or Ruger could be exclusive on these as others might fear adopting the high pressure round.

Need has nothing to do with it.

[Lance Boyle]

Well, I've read the entire thread, and all I can add is the old adage about how fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen, not fish.

This is true. I view it like new cars, shuffling the chrome on what is already there. It is nothing as far as adding a jump in technology. It is a rearrangement, a different configuration is all.

As such that is a tall order to make it in competition with other stuff that lasts and lasts. 9mm, .45, .38, .357 etc. Look at the other flash in the pan cartridges.....41 AE, .357 Sig, .356 TSW, .45 GAP.

That said staying the heck away from the semi rimmed makes all the sense in the world. Sometimes we just get stuck perpetuating a bad idea, like the belt on belted magnums. The 7mm mag and .300 win mag are great cartridges but IMHO would have been better beltless and avoid the stress riser at the belt altogether.

That is not taking away from what cartridges with dead ended ideas can do.

I think the bonus for this new round is mostly the extra mag capacity for size that comes with it while still being on par with 9mm.

A pistol caliber carbine with this would be neat for sure.

[Lance Boyle]

I also think the new S&W CSX would be the natural home for this cartridge, although I have never even seen either one.

Given the way carry guns have gone to striker fired or DA only, with very few DA/SA autos. I won't be holding my breath.

I also think it would have been better if the new round would safely fit in the new locked breech .380 pocket guns, but the 50,000 PSI being quoted doesn't make that seem very likely to me. Can you imagine a 14+1 Ruger LCP MAX that fits in your pocket?

Going head to head with a 9mm in the same sized guns does not seem like a winning proposition to me, but I have been wrong before.

Let's not forget that Federal also brought out the .32 H&R Magnum for basically the same purpose in the mid 1980's. It should have been marketed as an upgrade to the trail and kit guns in .22 and .32 S&W Long, instead of as an anti-personnel round.

We will see.

Robert



Boy I wish that S&W made a nice .32 H&R 4” again. K frame or J frame. Good specimens are priced as collectibles now and I cannot justify one. I have shifted looking for a later model .32 Long hoping to find one at an unloved price.

[Lance Boyle]

Would ruger ever do another revolver package that shipped with two cylinders? one cut for .30 SC moon clips and the other .327?

I vaguely recall the SP101 or something with .38 and 9mm cylinders.

[gpidaho]

Of the handguns I own, one that just feels right in my hand is a Bersa Thunder 380. I'd love to see the 30 Super Carry in a strengthened version of that pistol. I join others on not being impressed with the S&W Shield. Gp

[Mytmousemalibu]

Boy I wish that S&W made a nice .32 H&R 4” again. K frame or J frame. Good specimens are priced as collectibles now and I cannot justify one. I have shifted looking for a later model .32 Long hoping to find one at an unloved price.

I wish S&W made an Airweight J-frame in .327 Fed with a 6rd cylinder. Even better, a scandium frame Ti cylinder version like the 340PD is but in .327 of course. A steel K frame in .327 would be great too.
I know Ruger did the LCR in .327 but I just can't warm up to it like a J-frame.

[35remington]

It would have to be scandium in a j frame. An aluminum frame wouldn’t hold up.

Given operating pressure, a 30 Super chambered gun is not going to be offered in any 380 size/weight guns such as the LCP, Bodyguard, etc. and not in anything blowback either.

Equivalent in size to the 9mm micro compacts with a couple more rounds on tap is all you’re gonna get.

[Mytmousemalibu]

It would have to be scandium in a j frame. An aluminum frame wouldn’t hold up.

Given operating pressure, a 30 Super chambered gun is not going to be offered in any 380 size/weight guns such as the LCP, Bodyguard, etc. and not in anything blowback either.

Equivalent in size to the 9mm micro compacts with a couple more rounds on tap is all you’re gonna get.

Ya, i suspect you're probably right about a .327 J-frame. All the .357 J-frames are either carbon steel, stainless, or Scandium. The .327 is a magnum so I can see that. Wish they made one but if they haven't already I doubt they will, that cartridge is old news to most.

Completely agree on the 30 Super. A .380 size gun is just too small for it. Even with a locked breech action those little guns still rely on some slide mass for .380 and strong recoil springs. I have an M&P Bodyguard 380 and can't imagine it handling nearly 9mm high pressure cartridge. It would beat the tar out of itself and you. I would be very surprised to see anything smaller than a Sig 365, Ruger Max 9, G43, CSX, etc.
And forget about it trying to also handle .32ACP as been hinted. Thats like asking a semi auto.22 Mag also run CB caps. Not going to happen without significant changes. My interpretation of the .30SC is to add capacity to existing 9mm size guns without losing much in ballistic trade off. Depending on how it shoots, also a reduction in recoil increasing shootability.

[35remington]

“My interpretation of the .30SC is to add capacity to existing 9mm size guns without losing much in ballistic trade off“

Seems like that way to me, too.

Funny how that sounds like why the nine (versus say the 40) is so popular now. If the nine can steal the 40s thunder, perhaps it is not so far fetched for the Federal guys to try to duplicate that formula, or at least part of it, with the 30 Super.

9mm guys may “harrumph” but ironically that is making them sound like the 40 and 45 guys.

[Bigslug]

“My interpretation of the .30SC is to add capacity to existing 9mm size guns without losing much in ballistic trade off“

Seems like that way to me, too.

Funny how that sounds like why the nine (versus say the 40) is so popular now. If the nine can steal the 40s thunder, perhaps it is not so far fetched for the Federal guys to try to duplicate that formula, or at least part of it, with the 30 Super.

9mm guys may “harrumph” but ironically that is making them sound like the 40 and 45 guys.

Probably not quite. . .

The 9mm doubled the capacity of the .45's. The .40 tried to split the difference but wore out guns and shooters.

This new kid is adding A LITTLE BIT of capacity over the 9mm which had capacity as a major selling point to begin with. In reference to the small-ish guns they're promoting it for, you get two extra rounds to solve the problem where YOU FAILED TO DO SO WITH THE FIRST TEN.

I think the round MAY have a path to success, but starting in the compact CCW market isn't the place for it. Get the Stopwatch Gamers with their muzzle brakes, red dot sights, and weighted guide rods hooked on the idea of an EVEN MORE BOTTOMLESS magazine. This will increase the demand for components and ammo to the point that MAYBE cost will drop and availability will improve.

Then, of course, a few goblins are going to have to meet their end in the face of one to see where it stands on the credibility meter. At this point in time, data from shootings with a high-octane .32 are pretty scarce.

[megasupermagnum]

That's where I think a multi-purpose route is a better way to go. If you introduced it as a competition cartridge, I fail to see how it would turn out any different than 38 super. The beauty of the 32's is that they are a whole family. That is a valid selling point alone. Then they could have sold this as a semi-auto cartridge that adds some capacity. That's a selling point, but not a huge one. Then sell it in a revolver with moon clips. That's a selling point, but not a huge one. But now you've got a revolver, that can also shoot a 327 federal, and that's a selling point for hunters. And now you have two guns that cover a GIANT spectrum from high capacity concealed carry, to pip-squeak target loads, to moderate ammo good to for smaller game and coyote, to magnum ammo capable up to deer size game. All individually minor advantages, but together, that's one heck of a great set of rounds you can choose from. And best yet, during an ammo shortage, you are going to find one of those 32's somewhere in stock.

But they chose not to, and now we will have to wonder what could have been.

[uscra112]

How many .32 sized revolvers can handle 50kpsi? Asking for a friend,

[megasupermagnum]

How many .32 sized revolvers can handle 50kpsi? Asking for a friend,

All of them in 327 federal, which runs 45,000 psi. At the moment that is the Ruger LCR, Single 7, and SP101. S&W K frames handle it too. It should be no surprise that the larger ones handle it too. Despite the pressure, there's not much bolt thrust or recoil, so they really aren't that hard on guns.

[35remington]

But….the “little bit” of capacity increase engendered by the 30 is very similar to 9mm over 40. The no significant difference in performance thing is relevant too. Given how often pistols are shot durability issues are non starters for civilians….and most police departments that didn’t issue Glocks in 40. In point of fact few police guns are shot enough to wear them out….even in 40. And being Glocks.

Remember also that double stack 40s hold way over ten rounds, but an equivalent gun in short grip format holding two more in nine was a reason advanced for preferring the nine, all with supposedly no significant difference in effectiveness. Sound familiar? Some additional advantages can still be helpful. Why not give the benefit of the doubt here? If ten rounds are so reassuringly adequate why make all the new breed of micro compacts capable of holding 13 plus one? For that matter, how is 15 plus one worse or unnecessary when the 9mm boys used that very same argument when it suited them?

Just being aware that the “harrumph” crowd of 9mm guys sounds very much like the 40 and 45 guys they like to deride as being Luddittes.

[P Flados]

The two cylinder revolver sounds great until you consider the potential downside.

I have revolvers that run on the high side for chamber pressure.

I see the 50 ksi pressure of the 30 SC as a "ace in the hole" for performance in a semi-auto, but not so much for a revolver. Yes this is less than the pressure for some existing rounds, but it will make for some nasty cylinder gap blast. The barrel material will also need to be darn good if it is to avoid a high erosion rate.

[35remington]

Further….supposed current up to date “correctly articulated” advice is often spoken as “carry the highest capacity firearm that you can.”

Who can blame Federal for figuring that pursuit of such a thing with the no loss of effectiveness bit also covered had something going for it?

[dverna]

The gun rags will wet their undies.....question will be....does it “succeed” like the 6.5 CM, or like the WSMs and WSSMs? Maybe the 6.8? .270 Western? Thankfully this new offering promises to be very cast friendly...much better than that awful 9mm.

Don’t worry...be happy!

Nice thing about being a Luddite, no need to buy more guns or components.

[35remington]

Ah…but getting you to buy a 6.5 CM as a “superb” long range gun that is actually considerably inferior to the 270 you already own is an example of outstanding marketing acumen. The industry salivates over such things.

At least here the performance differences are truly not so different. In that case there may be something to it to some degree.

The industry hates Luddites. The newest and greatest is where it is at. Sometimes industry can fool the consumer into some purchases….see the 6.5 above. Other times not.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm pretty sure the 6.5 Creedmoor is the most popular 6.5mm rifle in the country right now.

[35remington]

It is. But most people buying one would be better off with a 270. Actual target shooters excepted. The Average Joe would be better off with something else.

[35 Whelen]

Anyone else rad about this and think "Modern 7.62x25 Tokarev?"

As a shooter who very recently acquired his first 7.62x25, this is the first thing that popped in my mind.

One thing is for sure, this round has the 9mm lovers jumping to defend their beloved cartridge and trying to explain why it is better.

35W

[35remington]

Yes, struck a nerve it did. One has to surmise this is a bit of deja vu in an uncomfortable way.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Probably not quite. . .

This new kid is adding A LITTLE BIT of capacity over the 9mm which had capacity as a major selling point to begin with. In reference to the small-ish guns they're promoting it for, you get two extra rounds to solve the problem where YOU FAILED TO DO SO WITH THE FIRST TEN.

I think the round MAY have a path to success, but starting in the compact CCW market isn't the place for it. Get the Stopwatch Gamers with their muzzle brakes, red dot sights, and weighted guide rods hooked on the idea of an EVEN MORE BOTTOMLESS magazine. This will increase the demand for components and ammo to the point that MAYBE cost will drop and availability will improve.

This is the market follow a trend and a trend that has been steadily advancing for a few years. Following a trend is following money. Its not like that is a novel idea, its been happening for hundreds of years. Extra rounds in your carry gun to many reads like extra insurance. Say your to go dispatch 4 enemy tanks with your tank. Your only going to bring 4 rounds then? Because your so sure you can't possibly need more? Or do take as many as you can fit? Who finishes an engagement and says, "damn, I wish I downloaded my mags or brought less ammo with me" or "man I didn't take any rounds in the chest, I regret wearing this body armor". Sounds kinda stupid doesn't it?

Everyone is free to like or carry whatever makes them happy. What floats your boat.... I personally wouldn't carry a derringer for self defense but some people do. Some like to carry a little foldup AR or carbine in a backpack. Thats fine, doesn't mean 1 round won't do the trick nor that you missed with the 1st 29rds so you need 30.

Completely true that most instances of defense that 0 to a few rounds solves the problem. Its not a guarantee you won't need more. Statistics are statistics and none of us has a crystal ball to tell us how the future goes.

How you see this round not to be a CCW thing....
I have no words....

I don't think it has any future for "Stopwatch gamers". The calibers, capacity and performance criteria has been set in stone for ages for most of these sporting regulations. Probably the least likely place for .30SC could possibly go. Most of the people that put in any real effort to do these kind of shooting sports at least make it to a level where most of our rounds hit the intended target.
I thought it was pretty entertaining to have some Tulsa SWAT guys shoot with us once and we blew their doors off! We all shot the same stages too. They were impressed and they are the guys that might have to shoot around real people!

[uscra112]

The contrived scarcity of ammo and especially primers is going to put an end "stopwatch gaming" anyway.

[dverna]

Yes, struck a nerve it did. One has to surmise this is a bit of deja vu in an uncomfortable way.

Not really. There is no need for this 9mm guy to get defensive...unless I saw the 9mm as now inferior and I am stuck with what I have. I would have standardized on the .40, but my fiancé did not like shooting it so 9mm it was.

Guys who like new toys will gobble up the hype...just like they always do. Anything to “need” a new toy.

The pistols we carry are the pistols we use for home defense and having carbines in the same caliber is advantageous. With over $3500 invested in one platform, there would have to be a good reason to make a switch, and I do not see it.

I reload so am shielded from ammunition supply problems. Most people do not reload and if they cannot find affordable 9mm, it will be a leap of faith to believe a new caliber will be “cheap”, and enjoy better availability in the long run.

[Mytmousemalibu]

The contrived scarcity of ammo and especially primers is going to put an end "stopwatch gaming" anyway.

An end of it....I doubt it, slowed down, absolutely and thats been a reality since the 19 garbage. First due to cancelations that hit everything and then component shortages. Plenty of competition guys learned the hard way during the previous shortages, buy cheap, stack deep. Nothing new to this crowd where the majority use a lot of the same things, N320, 3N38, Federal primers, Starline brass for example. All of which are not always easy to get so when you can, buy a lot of it. During Trumps office, many capitalized on this and aren't effected by the current situation. If things never improve then eventually yes we'll be hurting too. Last season, most of the matches filled all the available slots so while many have paused, more took their place. Quite a few have sponsor deals that cover or help with ammo. Some just adjusted class and bought factory ammo to shoot. At the local level, like others, we are allowing rimfire for club matches. So people have more choices and still get to participate. We were prepared to try pellet/BB/airsoft but things appear to be getting better. People that want to go shoot will find a way.

[Lloyd Smale]

Not really. There is no need for this 9mm guy to get defensive...unless I saw the 9mm as now inferior and I am stuck with what I have. I would have standardized on the .40, but my fiancé did not like shooting it so 9mm it was.

Guys who like new toys will gobble up the hype...just like they always do. Anything to “need” a new toy.

The pistols we carry are the pistols we use for home defense and having carbines in the same caliber is advantageous. With over $3500 invested in one platform, there would have to be a good reason to make a switch, and I do not see it.

I reload so am shielded from ammunition supply problems. Most people do not reload and if they cannot find affordable 9mm, it will be a leap of faith to believe a new caliber will be “cheap”, and enjoy better availability in the long run.

im with you. It doesnt do anything the 9 doesnt do better and i can find 9mm brass laying on the ground for free and theres a ton of good molds that make it darned near as cheap as shooting 22s and i dont have to rely on the inconsistant supplys of 22s. I probably shoot more 9s then ever other caliber combined. Not a cheerleader for the 9s. Id much rather have a 40 or 45 on my side if it ever came down to actually needing to defend myself or family. But i just dont see an advantage to having the same sized shield in a less powerful round that will probably ring your ears every time you shoot it. Now if it would fit in a lcp to replace the 380 i might look hard at it. But my guess is if you found one of those 30s used 10 years from now its doubtful it would have had 5 boxes of ammo shot through it.

[uscra112]

An end of it....I doubt it, slowed down, absolutely and that's been a reality since the 19 garbage. First due to cancellations that hit everything and then component shortages. Plenty of competition guys learned the hard way during the previous shortages, buy cheap, stack deep. Nothing new to this crowd where the majority use a lot of the same things, N320, 3N38, Federal primers, Starline brass for example. All of which are not always easy to get so when you can, buy a lot of it. During Trumps office, many capitalized on this and aren't effected by the current situation. If things never improve then eventually yes we'll be hurting too. Last season, most of the matches filled all the available slots so while many have paused, more took their place. Quite a few have sponsor deals that cover or help with ammo. Some just adjusted class and bought factory ammo to shoot. At the local level, like others, we are allowing rimfire for club matches. So people have more choices and still get to participate. We were prepared to try pellet/BB/airsoft but things appear to be getting better. People that want to go shoot will find a way.

Of course I hope you're right, but economics always gets the last word. Thinking back - during the FDR Depression shooters took to the .22 belly-shooting game in droves, because ammo was so much cheaper and perhaps because .22 ranges were so much easier to build.

I belong to a rifle club that normally hosts several pistol events every year. (Inactive, owing to age and handicaps.) The CCPVirus panic of course has had its' effect, so it'll be harder to analyze the influence of the ammo shortage on the game(s), but I'll still keep watch, just out of curiosity.

[Daekar]

I think this cartridge looks different depending on where you're sitting. To a reloader who has already decided that the 9mm they're carrying has sufficient capacity and has reloading equipment for it, the proposition isn't too intriguing.

To me, who has sold even his 9mm in favor of 357mag revolvers which don't throw brass all over Creation, even 9mm seems a poor choice - YMMV, of course.

To those who don't reload and who are interested in either getting an upgrade or a first gun, this is actually pretty interesting as long as the prices are where they project them to be. If I were interested in getting a new carry gun I would certainly be looking at the 30SC Shield EZ very hard, and be looking with interest at the guns designed specifically to take advantage of this round. More bullets are always better, and reaching the 8 or 9 round threshold in a gun which formerly might've held 6 or 7 is a real difference.

[charlie b]

Doesn't do anything I need that I don't already have covered. I have a 9mm with 15rnds. If I want more a mag swap is at hand with 15, 20 or even 30 rounds.

Carry is a .45 Lite Commander. 8rnds is enough :) Yes, I might be a luddite when it comes to guns. :)

[dverna]

I think this cartridge looks different depending on where you're sitting. To a reloader who has already decided that the 9mm they're carrying has sufficient capacity and has reloading equipment for it, the proposition isn't too intriguing.

To me, who has sold even his 9mm in favor of 357mag revolvers which don't throw brass all over Creation, even 9mm seems a poor choice - YMMV, of course.

To those who don't reload and who are interested in either getting an upgrade or a first gun, this is actually pretty interesting as long as the prices are where they project them to be. If I were interested in getting a new carry gun I would certainly be looking at the 30SC Shield EZ very hard, and be looking with interest at the guns designed specifically to take advantage of this round. More bullets are always better, and reaching the 8 or 9 round threshold in a gun which formerly might've held 6 or 7 is a real difference.

You make a couple of good points. Like you said, I look at from the perspective of a reloader/experienced shooter, and someone who used to shoot a lot of CF before things got crazy. BTW like you, we go tired of chasing brass. Even though I have thousands of cheap/free 9mm cases, we shoot at our own range, so we do not leave cases on the deck/ground. We bought two .686+ revolvers about 3-4 years ago and were using .38's for target work. But it made no sense to burn up $100+/k primers for plinking, so during the Crosman Black Friday sale we bought two PCP pistols for cheap practice shooting.

For a new shooter who does not reload this new round will be attractive. People who cannot shoot will want the extra rounds in the magazine. And the gun rags will be ecstatic over it...fueling the fire so to speak. A new shooter may not be thinking..."What if this is another .243 WSSM?" They have never seen "new and improved" rounds get pushed to the sidelines in a few years.

Looks like there are a lot of folks here on both sides of the question. The 9mm guys wondering what it does better, and the .32 cal guys happy that this proves they were right all along and getting another option.

Still wish me fiancé could shoot the .40, but it is a handful in a Kahr. I figure any bullet that makes a 9mm better makes a more powerful round better too. I will take one round less to get the added umph.

A lot of folks will buy into this new round. More shots will be important to them. I know a couple of people who do "protection work" who moved from the 1911 for that reason. They carry Glock 22's. But they need the round count and are getting twice as many shots, not two more.

I do not see a bright future for it. LEO's are unlikely to adopt it as they currently carry guns with plenty of capacity. No way the military will adopt it. The soccer moms and dads will buy 2 boxes of ammo and have enough ammunition for a lifetime. The .32 aficionados will see a repeat of the other .32 attempts over the last few years...only worse. At least the .327 Mag could fire other .32 ammunition and be easily downloaded for plinking. Most .32 fans are revolver and lever action boys. If they have a .327 revolver, they are unlikely to drop the coin on a new semi-auto and load a new caliber that may not make it long term.

[P Flados]

At least the .327 Mag could fire other .32 ammunition and be easily downloaded for plinking. Most .32 fans are revolver and lever action boys. If they have a .327 revolver, they are unlikely to drop the coin on a new semi-auto and load a new caliber that may not make it long term.

I agree a with a lot in the last posts by Daekar and Dverna, but am not so sure about the statements above.

Unlike the weird rifle cartridges that now have no source for either loaded rounds or brass, this round and the 350L are unlikely to become unobtainium due to one significant difference. That most wonderful source of straight wall brass known as Starline. Look at all the weird brass they still provide for straight wall brass in rounds that never made it to the point of being offered in more than a handful of guns. And with Starline making brass, I expect there will be the small specialty ammo assemblers providing ammo (at a price) if popularity declines to the point that Midway, Midsouth, CTD, etc. drop it as a regular offering.

Now the other point is in regard to 327 revolver owners. If a 327 revolver owner shoots his 4" or less barrel length gun on a regular basis, it is very likely that it is not with full power ammo. I load mine to a level where the muzzle blast is closer to the 9mm and in the process my power level is just above the 32 H&R (this is less than the 30 SC). With the full power 30 SC muzzle blast "comparable to the 9mm", down loading will be less of a thing. For really small guns, ammo with lighter bullets will probably become available to reduce recoil.

If a 327 owner wants a carry gun with a little more capacity and does not reload, the expected cost per round should drop (they are quoting similar to 380). These folks also do not chase brass so the semi auto option might look pretty good.

For those that reload, it will come down to willingness to buy brass or an occasional batch of factory ammo.

The only brass I have bought in decades is 327 and 357 Max from Starline. Since I never lose brass at the range, I was ok with buying the brass. Being on the small side and being visually similar to 380s and 9mms, 30 SC brass will be easy to lose at most shooting ranges. Since 30 SC popularity is unlikely to make range pickup brass a reliable source, buying brass or ammo either in very large quantities and/or periodically sounds like a given. For now, this keeps the new round as a "not now" thing for me. Many 327 reloaders are much less reluctant to buy brass than I am and are usually "32 nuts". As such they will be much more likely to be "very interested" as soon as guns start showing up.

[dverna]

Just checked.

Starline has no .327 Mag brass and not accepting backorders. .32 H&R brass is out of stock, but they are taking backorders.

No 9mm brass either and no backorders. But I can find lots of it if I needed it. I am too cheap to order new 9mm brass and I doubt they sell much of it because many folks are like me...CHEAP!

[FergusonTO35]

It is. But most people buying one would be better off with a 270. Actual target shooters excepted. The Average Joe would be better off with something else.

Having owned both, I like the 6.5 alot better. I would only pick the .270 if I was actually planning to use it for elk size game, as .270 is the minimum caliber permitted here.

[Drydock]

Hmmmm. (Opens drawer, pulls out the M1898 Rast & Gasser he used the day before to pot armidillos out on the farm). Ah yes.

[FergusonTO35]

The new .30 cartridge looks really neat, but I think the most hopeful outcome here is that it will find a small but stable niche like the .22 TCM or 5.7x28. It might see a bit of police use, as did the .357 Sig and .45 GAP, but I doubt any agencies will keep it for the long run.

[376Steyr]

A couple of 30 Super Carry advertisements, excuse me, well-researched and totally unbiased articles from NRA Shooting Illustrated:

About the cartridge, with some info on planned ammunition offerings: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/first-look-federal-premium-30-super-carry-ammunition/

and some slobbering over the Nighthawk 1911: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/nighthawk-custom-1911-in-30-super-carry/

[Jtarm]

If we’re gonna do a new gun/cartridge, about something useful? Like legitimizing .41 Special in the L-frame & GP100?

[megasupermagnum]

If we’re gonna do a new gun/cartridge, about something useful? Like legitimizing .41 Special in the L-frame & GP100?

:rolleyes: I think you forgot purple font.

[Bmi48219]

"Also I know I have a weak spot between my ears, but I would love to see a PC carbine chambered in this round.".

Maybe when the supply of surplus M-1 carbines dries up. To me this is another marketing ploy.
I’m figuring the new 30 rimless cartridge ammo will be a little pricier than 9 mm or s&w 40.

[sharps4590]

Spend enough on hype and it might survive, witness the 6.5 CM, but, I'm not very optimistic for this one. At least the 6.5 CM gave folks something they could believe they discovered....except that Europe discovered 6.5 caliber 125 years ago.

[Thundarstick]

Hi, my name is Thundarstick, and I'm a 32 nut!

I traded in my 327 S&W carry with 6 for a Sig 365 with 10. I just am not intrigued by this new one at all! How many rounds do you want in a civilian defensive carry gun, where you are responsible for where every bullet lands? I'm not seeing a bright future for this one.

[FergusonTO35]

50k pressure? That's centerfire rifle muzzle blast out of a handgun right there, no thx. I would also think it would be hard on the gun, especially one that was originally designed for 9x19 at 35k.

[35remington]

Smaller case head area somewhat balances out higher pressure.

If higher pressure alone was the problem 9mm would be way harder on guns versus say 45 ACP.

[Bigslug]

If we’re gonna do a new gun/cartridge, about something useful? Like legitimizing .41 Special in the L-frame & GP100?

Or how about a 10mm and .40 S&W Auto Rims if you're going down that road?

[P Flados]

50k pressure? That's centerfire rifle muzzle blast out of a handgun right there, no thx. I would also think it would be hard on the gun, especially one that was originally designed for 9x19 at 35k.

I ran the numbers.

Muzzle pressure and charge volume are very close to what you find in a 9mm. Also saw a side by side comparison with the 9mm in the same gun. The shooter really could not tell the difference for muzzle blast or recoil. Unlike the 327, I doubt that it will get a reputation for "excessive muzzle blast".

With the really high chamber pressure that drops off faster than the 9mm, this round will lose less velocity with shorter barrels.

Breech thrust is real close to 9mm, not more than 9mm +P depending on how you calculate effective area. For any gun currently in 9mm, the barrel wall will be thicker and the ID will be smaller so hoop stress on the barrel will be ok. The actual breech face will need to be hardened steel, but this should not a problem for any gun that I know of.

So 30 SC will be fine in today's guns that are available in the 9mm. The high pressure will be a factor for how small they can make any gun designed around the 30 SC, but look at what they have done with downsizing guns for the 9mm.

[FergusonTO35]

Did not know all that stuff, thanks!

[megasupermagnum]

Or how about a 10mm and .40 S&W Auto Rims if you're going down that road?

Yeah, it's called 401 powermag. Fine cartridge, but probably the biggest marketing failure I am personally aware of.

[am44mag]

I think this round could exist within a niche market, much like the 327 Fed does. I don't think it's ever going to replace 9mm, and really I don't think that's what it's going for. I think it might cut into the .380's market though. This round was made for the micro compact pistol market. If a pistol was made specifically for this round, and had the same capacity as most micro 9s, then you could end up with a smaller, lighter, thinner gun with roughly the same firepower. People will buy that. If I wanted a really small gun, I would buy that over a .380.


Why? Why on earth would you rather have this than a 30 carbine, or a 327 federal, or even a good old 32-20?

I can't answer for him, but for me it's simple. None of those rounds will fit in a Glock mag, which is what most PCCs use nowadays. The .30 SC would. When you want an M1 Carbine or a lever action, that's when you pick one of those other rounds.

[rockrat]

Interesting, but running at 50K psi, isn't that going to make quite a muzzle blast/flash, kind of like the 30 carbine Blackhawk?

[uscra112]

Everything has to fit into a Glock mag or an AR mag. Which is why we have the overstressed .300 Blackout. This thing is just following suit.

[megasupermagnum]

Everything has to fit into a Glock mag or an AR mag. Which is why we have the overstressed .300 Blackout. This thing is just following suit.

I think it's great. The sooner we get to a few standardized magazines, rather than every single gun being proprietary, the better.

[P Flados]

Interesting, but running at 50K psi, isn't that going to make quite a muzzle blast/flash, kind of like the 30 carbine Blackhawk?

As noted in post 103, the answer is no. Think closer to the 9mm. Chamber pressure is high, but the pressure drops fast. Look at the difference in case capacity from the 30 SC to the 30 carbine.

[35remington]

The 30 Carbine also uses about 3X as much of a considerably slower burning powder.

[FergusonTO35]

I think it's great. The sooner we get to a few standardized magazines, rather than every single gun being proprietary, the better.

This 100%. Proprietary mags are terrible, just pick a proven design that has been around for ages and roll with it. While we're at it, I'm tired of sporting bolt action centerfires using super expensive low capacity mags. For example, the Savage Axis. Great rifle with expensive crummy mags. All of the .223 versions should use an AR mag, which is available in many different capacities. Those using .308 size cartridges can use AR-10 or M1A style mags. I imagine there is a proven existing mag design for the .30'06 cartridges out there that would work great.

[Tokarev]

Everything has to fit into a Glock mag
Agreed in general but Glock has a weird grip angle, so no, not everything. For those who do not appreciate Glock's angle, it should be Beretta 9x series mag.


I imagine there is a proven existing mag design for the .30'06 cartridges out there that would work great.
Yes. It is BAR.

[uscra112]

Agreed in general but Glock has a weird grip angle, so no, not everything. For those who do not appreciate Glock's angle, it should be Beretta 9x series mag.
.

AMEN to that. I'm a confirmed Glock-hater, and the grip angle is one of the lesser reasons.

[FergusonTO35]

Strangely enough, the grip angle is one thing I like about Glocks. I really don't like the more upright angle that the newer Sig pistols use. Ain't it great to pick what you like?

[Idaho45guy]

Yeah, it's called 401 powermag. Fine cartridge, but probably the biggest marketing failure I am personally aware of.

Probably because it shares it's name with an obscure AMC motor that was also a huge marketing failure.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Magazine standardization is great, makes life easier and cheaper. I would not have bought a Ruger PC Carbine or AR-9 if it wasn't for the Glock mag pattern. Its become the gold standard for pistol mags and is generally very good. The angle of it doesn't mean whatever uses it has to use the Glock grip angle, it is more a function of how 9mm stacks & feeds. Personally I wished the M&P, CZ, Beretta pattern had become the standard. The polymer w/thin steel liner has its drawbacks. An all steel body as the gold standard would have been nice. The Stanag AR pattern is fantastic.

[Tokarev]

Chris,
If it was a petition, I would have signed it right away!

[sharps4590]

I have never had any difficulty finding a magazine for ANY of my revolvers......:razz:

I own my share of semi-auto's and I am eternally grateful none of them is a Clock or AR. Not taking anything away from them, lots of folks like 'em and, there's no question they've proven themselves, but I don't. Lots of folks like devilled eggs and brussels sprouts but, I don't like them either.

[Daekar]

I have never had any difficulty finding a magazine for ANY of my revolvers......:razz:

I own my share of semi-auto's and I am eternally grateful none of them is a Clock or AR. Not taking anything away from them, lots of folks like 'em and, there's no question they've proven themselves, but I don't. Lots of folks like devilled eggs and brussels sprouts but, I don't like them either.

Now if a good God-fearing man owns to a dislike of Glocks and ARs, well I figure that's his right, and I'd agree with him. But deviled eggs and Brussels sprouts, are another matter... ;-)

[sharps4590]

Now if a good God-fearing man owns to a dislike of Glocks and ARs, well I figure that's his right, and I'd agree with him. But deviled eggs and Brussels sprouts, are another matter... ;-)

[smilie=l:

[MNruss]

I would be highly tempted by a Savage Axis for this cartridge, at least on a Black Friday type deal, simply as a repeating bunny-gun.
I would already own one in 327 if they made them.
I’ve been tempted by the 350L.

Russ

[rockrat]

Already is a 10mm and 40 s&w. Ruger Blackhawk convertable

[FergusonTO35]

I have to wonder, how well would the new cartridge and the guns chambered in it work with reduced pressure cast loads? If it was no special trick to download it to .32 H&R performance level and still be reliable then I would find it rather appealing!

[megasupermagnum]

I have to wonder, how well would the new cartridge and the guns chambered in it work with reduced pressure cast loads? If it was no special trick to download it to .32 H&R performance level and still be reliable then I would find it rather appealing!

Well its full power load is 32 H&R performance level... so pretty easy.

[dverna]

So, after all these comments....who is going to buy one?

It won't be me...I already have semi-auto's, revolvers and carbines that hit like a 9mm.

[megasupermagnum]

So, after all these comments....who is going to buy one?

It won't be me...I already have semi-auto's, revolvers and carbines that hit like a 9mm.

I was hoping to have more info with Shot show, but that is not the case. It comes down to this for me. If they decided to change it last minute so it is infact a straight wall 32, I'd probably buy an M&P shield in one, and I'd be looking to have a GP100 327 federal cut for moon clips, just because.

As it stands, no. I carry large guns, and I have no problem with the capacity of 45 acp in full size guns.

[rintinglen]

243 WSSM, 41 AE, 256 Winchester, 45 GAP, etc., etc,.
Just another flash in the pan, IMO.

[35remington]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d4ovPtWPmwo&pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D

How it is now is how the cartridge will be offered. In the design process what was considered best was no doubt chosen.

Interest in making some sort of hybrid pistol/revolver compatible cartridge is likely zero and there is no chance they will pursue that to get the business of the half dozen people who might like the idea.

[uscra112]

Y'know, there are countries in the world where "military" cartridges are illegal for civilians. Last I knew even France and Germany. That would include the 9mm. As I remember the .38 Super was made as a rule-beater for Mexico and South America. So this .32 might catch on there.







'

[Tokarev]

In some of those countries the decision to ban military calibers is not anti-gun. It is anti-theft. Take Italy for instance, where 9x19 is illegal for civilians to possess but 9x21 is.
Those 2mm make such a little difference for a civilian but such a huge difference for an ammo store sentry.

[uscra112]

Maybe. The original reason after WW2 was to give police the legal authority to shut down criminals and guerillas using ammo and weapons stocks left over from the war. In Germany there were diehard Nazis attacking Allied occupation troops into 1947. South America I'm sure it was an anti-revolution measure. France I don't know just what the purpose was but to this day some of the civilian police carry Mini-14s chambered for the .222 Remington instead of the 5.56.

[Buzz Krumhunger]

In 10 years this thing will be as wildly popular as the 5.7x28.

[mobilemail]

I've been following this with interest, and thought I would add some comments. To start, I am a .327 fan, I shoot and reload .327 rifle and pistol. And like others, the loads I shoot mostly have the energy of hot 32H&R. I have also recently become a fan of the humble 32ACP, in my opinion its a "just right" caliber for the easily concealable "micro size" guns.
What I like about the idea of the .30SC is that I already have everything but the brass to reload it. What I don't like is the idea that I will have to reload it because if it's like .327 I will NEVER see the ammo on a gun store shelf! I can count on one hand the number of times I walked into a store and there was .327FM available, and .30SC will be worse. I will be a bystander on this caliber until brass and reloading data are available, at the very least.
As for guns, I carry a Shield (or a SP-101 .357, depends on the day). I have been very satisfied with my gen 1 shield, and never felt the need to plunk down hundreds to replace it with a gun because I would have two more rounds. Extra mag, anyone? But the thing is that it has a lot of competition, the consumer has many gun choices. How many guns are available in .30SC? When more guns are available to choose from I will be more interested. I think Ruger is the only large scale manufacturer currently producing a .327FM handgun in any variety. That's a shame, but it's still true. Personally I would be "highly interested" in a metal gun in .30SC, especially a 1911 officer's model. I think it would also make a fun PCC, but who could afford to shoot it.
Which comes down to the last point of...why? Why would a consumer buy such a specialty gun when there are so many built to handle the ubiquitous and way cheaper 9mm? This gun will have to be sold, it definitely won't sell itself. As for the "extra round" argument...what about states with a 10-round mag limit? Advantage gone.

Next!

[Outpost75]

For many years I have been a fan of the .32 ACP. .32 S&W Long and .32-20. I dabbled briefly with the .32 H&R Mag., but saw no need for it as strong postwar .32 S&W Long revolvers could be safely loaded to nearly the same payload and velocity, as could also the.32 ACP in steel-frame autopistol refitted with 18-pound .380 ACP recoil springs. A 90-grain bullet at 900 fps is easily attainable with 3 grains of Bullseye in .32S&W Long or 3 grains of Autocomp in .32 ACP or 5 grains of AutoComp in the .32-20.

I see no need for more.

[dkf]

The only advantage to this cartridge is in most guns you can squeeze and extra round or two in the magazine vs 9x19. That is it. It doesn't attain 9x19 performance. With the pressure it is running it is not going to be mouse gun friendly and its going to be snappy. The ammo companies cannot keep up with demand over the last couple years so what do they do. Come out with another caliber. I'll wager this new round will end up sitting by its lonesome on many shelves.

[dverna]

For many years I have been a fan of the .32 ACP. .32 S&W Long and .32-20. I dabbled briefly with the .32 H&R Mag., but saw no need for it as strong postwar .32 S&W Long revolvers could be safely loaded to nearly the same payload and velocity, as could also the.32 ACP in steel-frame autopistol refitted with 18-pound .380 ACP recoil springs. A 90-grain bullet at 900 fps is easily attainable with 3 grains of Bullseye in .32S&W Long or 3 grains of Autocomp in .32 ACP or 5 grains of AutoComp in the .32-20.

I see no need for more.

Outpost,

IIRC you did a great post/thread on the .32's sometime ago. It ratcheted up my opinion on the .32's after I read it. It might be educational for this thread to link it here if you have the time and feel it would help the discussion.

My search abilities are pathetic.

[Daekar]

For many years I have been a fan of the .32 ACP. .32 S&W Long and .32-20. I dabbled briefly with the .32 H&R Mag., but saw no need for it as strong postwar .32 S&W Long revolvers could be safely loaded to nearly the same payload and velocity, as could also the.32 ACP in steel-frame autopistol refitted with 18-pound .380 ACP recoil springs. A 90-grain bullet at 900 fps is easily attainable with 3 grains of Bullseye in .32S&W Long or 3 grains of Autocomp in .32 ACP or 5 grains of AutoComp in the .32-20.

I see no need for more.

This reminds me of why I am so bummed out that Beretta doesn't make the Cheetah anymore. Beautiful gun, up to 12 shot magazine in 32ACP, supposedly shoots beautifully. If I were go to back to a semi-auto for a carry gun I would love to find a good example of that.

In my opinion, they chose the wrong cartridge to target with the 30 Super Carry. The should have tried to duplicate the performance of 380ACP in a 32 caliber cartridge because one of the biggest problems with 380 is you're giving up power to the 9mm for the sake of size and/or shoot ability without any increase in capacity.

[Good Cheer]

Used a 6" barrel .32ACP and #313249 for camp meat, bunnies and popping up over the backside of cow ponds. It was a good round because it would operate at low pressure. This new thing at 50kPSI... uh, nope, no thanks.

[megasupermagnum]

Used a 6" barrel .32ACP and #313249 for camp meat, bunnies and popping up over the backside of cow ponds. It was a good round because it would operate at low pressure. This new thing at 50kPSI... uh, nope, no thanks.

Are you afraid that chamber pressure has become too expensive?

[Good Cheer]

Are you afraid that chamber pressure has become too expensive?

Sorry, I don't understand.

[Thundarstick]

Sorry, I don't understand.

hearing aids don't come cheep!

[am44mag]

So, after all these comments....who is going to buy one?

It won't be me...I already have semi-auto's, revolvers and carbines that hit like a 9mm.

I'm tempted to buy one, though mainly out of curiosity. Like others, I would really like to see a PCC chambered in this round.


In 10 years this thing will be as wildly popular as the 5.7x28.

So you're saying it's popularity will grow over time? There's more guns chambered in 5.7 and more buzz around it today than there was 10 years ago. I'd have one if it wasn't such a PITA to reload, and ammo wasn't $0.80 per round.

[Bill*B]

A higher pressure, smaller diameter remake of the old 1896 .30 Mauser, aka Tokarev (with quite a reputation in their day!) and the 1898 .30 Luger. While I wish the new cartridge well, it will likely fade in relative disuse, like the others. I keep a .30 Luger because it's different, but let's get real - 9X19 is the semi-auto king.

[Good Cheer]

hearing aids don't come cheep!

Oh! Yeah, my ears were blown out a long time ago. Got the expensive ear plugs now with equalizers and radio waves shooting through my brain.
[smilie=w:

I really loved the .32ACP even if I never could find the brass.

[FergusonTO35]

I love the .32 Auto as well, but the darn brass likes to rocket into the stratosphere. I added extra power recoil springs and shortened the ejector blades on my Kel-Tecs, which helps a little.