Biggest factor in shotshell pressure?

[GaryM]

Of course powder charge/shot charge is the biggest factor but those are adjustable by the loader. Other than that is it which primer, hull, crimp or the wad?

[Budzilla 19]

Primers and wads, I would have to say, in my opinion. Numerous tests have shown wads can change a load from safe, although close to max pressure, to a gun killing load! Same goes for primer changes. May not burst the gun itself, but, accelerated wear on parts, head space issues, and probably punishing recoil! Crimps? Need to be firm and tight to promote good powder burn. I hope this helps.

[dverna]

Primers can alter pressure by about 3000 psi in some testing I saw a long time ago.

So can crimp:

https://hodgdon.com/faq-items/effect-of-crimp-depth-on-shotshells/

Your crimps should look like a factory shell. Learn to adjust your dies as even a cheap MEC will make a good crimp. If your hulls are junk or worn out, you will get a poor crimp but that will be safe...just lower pressure.

I am not going to wade through a bunch of data to prove wads matter...that is your homework assignment...LOL

DO NOT substitute components and you will be safe. There are people who do stupid things and get away with it.

The Lyman manual is a good one. Hodgdon and Alliant both have good on-line resources. More data from Downrange Wads. Those are what I use. No reason to dink around as there is plenty of data.

Beware of loads posted on forums. Some guys know what they are doing, and some do not. If you have a specific load you are looking at, send me a PM and I will comment.

[megasupermagnum]

Primers and wads, I would have to say, in my opinion. Numerous tests have shown wads can change a load from safe, although close to max pressure, to a gun killing load! Same goes for primer changes. May not burst the gun itself, but, accelerated wear on parts, head space issues, and probably punishing recoil! Crimps? Need to be firm and tight to promote good powder burn. I hope this helps.

Wads is such a broad subject, since there are so many of them. I think most people can make reasonable judgements. I'm not suggesting you swap things willy nilly, but changing a Winchester AA for a Remington RPX 12 does effectively nothing. Going to a BPI Ranger Elite would probably do bad things.

[jim 44-40]

Lyman Shotshell Handbook says Shotshell pressure is substantially affected by any component change.

[shootinfox2]

The total composition of hull, primer, powder, wad, shot weight, and crimp determine the final pressure. Use proven data with no substitution, unless you work up the load carefully. Under charge can be as dangerous as over charge.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The biggest factor is no doubt the wad. The wad controls the size of "the boiler room" so to speak, and it has a huge impact on the pressure.
All wads will compress during launch, but some more than others. Plastic wads for light loads has a high compression zone between seal and shot cup, meant to take up space in the hull.
Wads for heavy hunting loads have a much shorter compression zone - some none at all. Felt wads will compress, but some are denser than others, and nitro cards are denser yet.

It is almost impossible to calculate the effect of swapping one type of wad for another, and that goes for other shotshell components as well, but I will try to demonstrate how much
two different components can affect pressure: the volume (boiler room) the powder gases has to fill, and the weight of the payload.

I designed a non-existent cartridge in the QuickLoad program, based on the .700 Nitro Express, and modified the case volume to somehow resemble a 12 gauge shotshell.
The beauty of QuickLoad is that you can fiddle with almost every thing and get instant feedback on various stuff, like chamber pressure and muzzle velocity.
In this case, I just changed the seating depth 0.2 (5mm) and the weight of of the payload (from 500 grains to 750 grains) I tried two different powders from both ends of the
shotgun powder range: Red Dot and Blue Dot.

(THE FOLLOWING DATA IS JUST FOR COMPARISON - DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME; FOLKS!) [smilie=1:

I decided to tweak the loads so the pressure for the 500 grains payload would be approx. 10.000 psi. This was the "basic load"

It took 31 grains of Blue Dot to reach 10.000 psi, but only 13 grains of Red Dot to reach the same pressure.

The numbers were as follow,
Red Dot:
Increasing the payload with 50% to 750 grains raised the pressure with 29% to 12.900 psi.
Lowering the seating depth with 0.2 raised the pressure with 39% to 13.900 psi.

Blue Dot:
Increasing the payload with 50% to 750 grains raised the pressure with 33% to 13.250 psi.
Lowering the seating depth with 0.2 raised the pressure with 38% to 13.850 psi.

As you can see from the numbers, swapping a compressible wad for another wad with 0.2 less compression will increase
the pressure MORE than adding 50% extra shot to the load. Bet you didn't see that one coming..!

There's a reason the reloading manuals tell you NOT to substitute any parts of their recommended loads!

[longbow]

What Cap'n Morgan said!!

I've raised the same issue regarding slug loads where people are subbing a full bore slug or ball replacing equal weight birdshot load but using hard card wads under the slug instead of cushion leg wads.

Another issue is those making shorty rounds. You can't just remove the cushion leg and replace with a plastic gas seal and shorten the hull. That cushion leg compresses at ignition producing much more combustion chamber volume at ignition than with no cushion leg.

More volume = less pressure
Less volume = more pressure... quite a bit more pressure!

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[Petander]

Now here is something new!

Thank you Captain Morgan, I'm a longtime Quick Load user but simulating a shotshell load in QL never occurred to me!

Of course it's not Pressure Trace but...

[Blood Trail]

As Cap’N Morgan stated, seating pressure is the most overlooked and the most important factor that can affect chamber pressure. It’s the equivalent of seating a bullet’s OAL too deep.

However, I know I’m gonna get some backlash from this, but here goes:

You will never blow a shotgun up by subbing primers. You will never blow a shotgun up by subbing wads or hulls. I’m talking modern shotguns in good working order.

As many of you know I do a lot of pressure testing. Highest pressure I’ve purposely recorded was 28.7k psi with a double charge of a certain powder with a 1 oz shot payload.

Wanna know what happened to that Mossberg? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I still use it.

Shotguns can take a lot more pressure than people think. Tom Roster hit over 55k psi. Wrote he was able to an 870 barre up and while strong, they aren’t the strongest in the market.

So what exactly am I saying?

I’m saying to still be smart and pay attention when reloading. Don’t venture off the unpublished data path if you don’t have the knowledge or experience to do so.

The main jest of this is don’t tear down your loads because you mistakenly used a magnum primer when data called for a standard primer or you used a FED 12S4 when you should of used a WAA12. You’ll be just fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Baltimoreed]

Very interesting thread as I’m currently loading 12 ga shells. Guess you would call me off the reservation as I’ve been building cas loads with the intent of using the lightest amount of powder possible and 3/4 -7/8 oz of # 9s. Yes I’ve looked in my antique Lyman shotshell manuals and nothing listed is light enough. I’ve even loaded 1/2 oz loads for my 20 ga Marlin Model 30. These loads work for me and my firearms YMMV. If so inclined use at your own risk. Currently I’m using a#408 powder bushing/7/8 oz #9 shot/CB1138-12 red wads in a 2 inch WW AA cut down shell. My powder is Extra-Lite but I’ve used Red Dot, Clay Dot or Clays pretty much interchangeably. My standard sized shell WW AA load is the same except for a CB0175-12 pink wad. They work just fine for my cas shoots. The shorter shells give me one more in my mag for Wild Bunch shoots. I did increase the powder bushing from a #398 bushing to the #408 to give me a little more power.

[Cap'n Morgan]

However, I know I’m gonna get some backlash from this, but here goes:

You will never blow a shotgun up by subbing primers. You will never blow a shotgun up by subbing wads or hulls. I’m talking modern shotguns in good working order.

Blood Trail, you're not gonna get any backlash from me!

I've been reloading shotshell by the seat of my pants forever, and (crossing my fingers) never had any worries - using common sense goes a long way.
At one point I cut up several hundreds shells of various brands, too rusty to chamber and retract reliably (hunting at sea takes a heavy toll on both guns and ammo). I mixed all the powder into a "Special Blend" and reused both shot & powder in once-fired target hulls.

As you noticed, shotguns can take an awful amount of pressure. Some guns have even survived a twelve gauge shell on top of a twenty gauge shell without splitting the barrel, yet shotguns still, sometimes inexplicable, blow up.

I have an old 16 gauge Spanish s/s lying around somewhere. One of these days I'm gonna test a theory of mine: cut a shotshell in half, plug the barrel halfway towards the muzzle with the front part of the shell, and shoot the powder/wad part, hopefully creating a disastrously "bicycle pump effect" when the speeding wad meet up with the stationary front part. I may have to use black powder to get a proper ignition, but I certainly will use a VERY long string when firing the gun.

[longbow]

Having blown up one shotgun in my hands I can say for sure they can and do blow up!

I pulled the trigger and was instantly covered by a cloud of smoke, felt a spray of debris in my face and felt the gun go "limp".

When the smoke cleared and I composed myself my wife was screaming having witnessed the blow up and I found myself holding the forearm in my left hand and buttstock with receiver in my right hand and the barrel on the ground about 10' in front of me.

This was an inexpensive single shot with Remington's name on it, bought new.

The same loads had been previously shot through my Browning BPS with Buck and Slug barrel on it.

Recoil in the Browning was punishing with some sticky extraction but I wasn't smart enough to recognize the signs!

This was a Lyman manual load except likely a different primer and with shortened hull with a soft lead filled Lyman Foster slug and fold crimp.

I was lucky! The entire top of the chamber was missing but no other bulges or damage. I kept the pieces for show and tell until we moved at which point I tossed it all but wish I had kept it!

My injuries were relatively minor...I had a cut above my right eye and powder debris all over my face and I lost some hearing in my right ear.

Again, this was a book load possibly with different primer, shortened hull and filled Foster slug.

Indications are that the slug obturated to fill the chamber at the case mouth then hit the forcing cone and couldn't squeeze down fast enough.

Powder was PB and no mistake because I only had one powder. Couldn't be double loaded because the was no room in the shortened hull.

There was no barrel obstruction... 1st shot out of the single shot.

My guess is pressure spike caused by no cushion leg and obturated filled slug squeezing down from chamber diameter to bore diameter. Primer may have contributed to high pressure too.

To reinforce above comments by Cap'n Morgan and BT...

Removing the cushion leg can increase pressure.

Primer change can change pressure by up to 3000 PSI.

Deep crimp can raise pressure by up to 3000 PSI.

And I believe soft HB slugs can obturate to fill the chamber, at least under certain circumstances, leading to increased pressure due to squeeze down to bore diameter.

Any one of these may not lead to a blow up but combine them at your own risk!

I was lucky!

These days I don't stray far from published load data. I do substitute wads for similar wad and I do substitute slug for equal weight shot.

I do not remove cushion legs without reducing powder charge.

I do not use HB slugs in short hulls!

As I said before... play but play safe!

Longbow

[Dieselhorses]

Recently landed a "never-used" MEC Sizemaster (12 ga) from a coworker (SM82) along with 25 lbs. chilled 7.5 shot, 250 AA wads, 4 lbs Red Dot, 200+ hulls, 200 Winchester primers-all for 100.00. Now after reading this thread, it has wondering if I even want to get into shotshell reloading! Obviously, there are more variables than rifle and pistol reloading. It was fun giving the ole press a "facelift" and reassembling it though!


Before
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[farmbif]

as far as the original question, I'm not so sure there is any one main factor that would change or determine shotshell pressure. all the components that can be changed can greatly change the pressure curve. this I guess is why there are exact formulas for specific components in shotshell reloading manuals. reloading shotshells is very different than reloading center fire brass cartridges. nowhere in any shotshell reloading manual I have ever seen does it say to start low with the powder charge and work up a load.

[dverna]

Recently landed a "never-used" MEC Sizemaster (12 ga) from a coworker (SM82) along with 25 lbs. chilled 7.5 shot, 250 AA wads, 4 lbs Red Dot, 200+ hulls, 200 Winchester primers-all for 100.00. Now after reading this thread, it has wondering if I even want to get into shotshell reloading! Obviously, there are more variables than rifle and pistol reloading. It was fun giving the ole press a "facelift" and reassembling it though!






Before
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After
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There are thousands of published recipes. Use them and you are completely safe. Ignore loads on this or any other forum not found in a manual or the powder manufactures web site.

[megasupermagnum]

There are thousands of published recipes. Use them and you are completely safe. Ignore loads on this or any other forum not found in a manual or the powder manufactures web site.

dverna, we get it. You load nothing but published target loads. There are not thousands of published loads for anything except basic target loads, and really that only applies to 12 and 20 gauges. If you are wanting to load any kind of hunting load, especially buckshot or slugs, more often than not you can look through half a dozen books, and all of them will have at least one component that is either unobtanium, or discontinued. Ballistic Products is a big turnover factory, and over the last 10 years, they have rarely had a component more than a year or two before being changed or discontinued. Other than that, the next newest shotgun reloading manual is the Lyman 5th, and that came out in 2007. Half the stuff in that book is discontinued now. This isn't the 1980's and 1990's anymore where there is a billion different loads for a Federal gold medal hull, and everyone and their brother is making shotgun wads. We are at a time now where we are left with bare bones choices in a lot of cases, components are changing year-to-year, and no new data is coming out for this stuff.

At some point you either need to make the choice to either stop loading shotguns, or learn how to safely make substitutions.

[W.R.Buchanan]

In my opinion the biggest contributor to pressure spikes is the substitution of a Federal Primer which as others have said can contribute a 3000 psi increase in pressure. However as BT said the newer guns we commonly use are up to the task, and a 3000 psi spike on top of a 10,000 psi load is not going to kill you as long as the gun is solid. If it would, then how would the gun swallow 3" Magnum loads and live to tell about it?

I substitute wads as needed, and I don't have any Federal Primers (I don't even know which ones are the hot ones!) Payloads are all in the 1-1.25 oz range, and my loads are always close to book published loads, and I'm gonna use the exact same loads for Rem STS hulls as I use for Win AA's as well as Rio Hulls and Win Universals which are both strait wall hulls. And yet when I look I find the same loads for both styles of hulls in different manuals..

But here's where I don't venture. I don't hotrod loads looking for the most powerful load I can shoot . I see no point in it.

All my loads are on the bottom end of the velocity and pressure charts to begin with. I'm in the 11-1300 fps range, IE: Target Loads with different slugs or buckshot. I have no need for hot loads as nothing I shoot at will know the difference. If by chance I got to shoot at some pigs, my relatively mild Slug Loads would be more than up to the task. And lets say for the sake of conversation I got an invite to shoot a Polar Bear, or the 600 lb + Russian Boar I jsut saw on TV, I'd probably go buy some Brenneke Slugs and not use any of my handloaded ammo. I know that even the bottom end Brenneke Slugs are not as powerful as a Federal 1 oz slug at 1600 fps! And the fact that I still have 28 of those Federals in their original boxes is the reason why I shoot Low Recoil Slugs in the first place.

A Low Recoil 1 oz Slug at 1300 fps has a TKO of 60 when a .45-70 400 gr boolit at 1800 fps is only a TKO of 47. I doubt anyone here would not be willing to shoot jsut about anything in N/A form their .45-70. A .458 Win Mag 500 gr at 2150 fps is only TKO 70, where as those Federals I have a bunch of are TKO 73 and I can sure suffer thru a few of those if I had to.

I actually have bought some Brenneke Slugs and some Lightfield Slugs just to see how they'd perform?

Out of my guns the Brenneke's shoot around the point of aim, and I'm sure I could hit a Paper Plate at 25 or so yards, and even though the slugs I bought are on the low end of what Brenneke sells (1oz slugs at 1300 fps versus 1.5 oz Slugs at 1600 fps!)) I'm pretty sure they'd suffice for my intended use. I also won't have to worry about blowing myself up! Because these loads are similar to what I shoot in my Handloads, and they are Tested Factory loaded ammo that are loaded in to Rio Hulls exactly like I use! In fact my Crimps look a little better than theirs!

As far as those top end Brenneke slugs are concerned I think one 5 round box will last an entire lifetime as I doubt anyone will pull the trigger twice on one of those in a Mossberg 500 that weighs a hair over 7 lbs.!!! Shoulder damage should be expected! They have a TKO of 110! A .460 Weatherby Mag is only TKO 81 !

So in closing with my .02, I maintain that there is alot of room for experimentation at the lower end of the power curve. Being able to think clearly and not engage in Stupid Reloading Practices, and being able to look at a loaded cartridge and decide if it is safe to shoot, will go along way towards keeping you safe.

I am not a fan of the 'Never Deviate from a Book Load' crowd. I feel that they don't understand what they are doing, and the people who compile all those book loads think that too, and have to cover their butts. Plus that since there is only about 8 million different recipes for loading shotshells published over the last 100 years,,, I am pretty sure that if you look long enough you can find about any combination of components you might wish to try in some book somewhere.

Randy.

[Dieselhorses]

There are thousands of published recipes. Use them and you are completely safe. Ignore loads on this or any other forum not found in a manual or the powder manufactures web site.

Appreciate it Don!

[Baltimoreed]

Started back reloading 00 buck loads and am curious about using a filler between the pellets. I’m loading WW AA 12ga with a plastic wad that holds 8 pieces. Is filler even needed?

[dverna]

Appreciate it Don!

If you need a load for your components, PM me and I will help and reference where I got it.

MSM, I do not load buckshot or slugs. All my hunting loads are lead shot in 12, 20 and 28 ga. If you need some data, I will try to help. I have data for slugs and buckshot that might be useful too. If someone cannot use published data, you are correct. They better know what they are doing, buy factory, or stop shooting.

[Cap'n Morgan]

My guess is pressure spike caused by no cushion leg and obturated filled slug squeezing down from chamber diameter to bore diameter. Primer may have contributed to high pressure too.

Longbow, this is exactly the kind of blowups that puzzles me. I believe it is the same thing that happens when people 'ring' the chambers of straight wall, large caliber black powder rifles, by using smokeless powder and a nitro card or similar to keep the powder up against the primer - thereby creating a free space between powder and boolit. At one point we had a lively discussion in the Cast Boolits forum on how to avoid the problem: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?422731-Filler-under-powder

Chances are something similar happened to you; an erratic ignition, maybe the primer only, pushed the slug forward, but not fast enough to overcome the forcing cone, and the slug stopped. A few milliseconds later the powder ignites completely, a pressure wave speeds forward and meet the stationary slug...

I had something similar happen when I bulged my Krieghoff barrel right at the start of the choke. I was shooting a slug loaded with a (too) light load of Steel powder. The report and recoil seemed normal. It was the very first shot of the batch and I always check the barrels before loading. Still, the bulge appeared, and I still believe it was a "bicycle pump" incident, caused by the slug momentarily stopping in the choke before the pressure wave caught up with it again.

On a more uplifting note; I'm working on another slug based on my previous sabot/sleeve design. More to follow...

[longbow]

I'll add that I loaded up a bunch of these short hulls and shot at least 5 through my Browning noting the punishing recoil and sticky extraction but not taking it as a warning as I should have!

As I said, my take is that the slug obturated to fill hull and/or chamber then met the forcing cone and had to squeeze down. I think the squeeze down caused the blowup by producing a pressure spike.

What I can say is that in the surviving bottom half of the chamber there were clearly defined lead streaks starting where the hull mouth had been all the way through forcing cone and into the bore.

I don't recall how short I cut the hulls but likely 2 1/4" to 2 1/2". The gun had 3" chamber. I eliminated the cushion leg and shortened the hull accordingly. The rest was to Lyman recipe with possible exception of primer but having said that all that was available locally IIRC was Winchester 209's which are "mild" primers.

I dont believe this acted similar to a wad pressed down on powder with an air space between wad and bullet because the slug obviously obturated to fill the chamber so it didn't start moving freely at low pressure then hit the forcing cone and paused. Pressure was already high as the slug left the hull.

I took the remaining loaded rounds out to shoot them through the single shot gun. It came apart with the first shot.

I wish I had kept that barrel or at least taken pics. Oh well!

Longbow

[Walks]

My ol' Dad taught me just about everything I know about Reloading. The ONE hard and fast rule on shotguns was; DON'T SUBSTITUTE !!!
Never had a problem with that, so I've never had a problem.

Did know a New Cowboy Shooter who figured the 5,000rds of ought-6 and .38Spl he'd loaded in the previous 10yrs made him an expert on everything. Blew up a Stoeger SxS and an old Win M24. You HAVE to follow the book recipe exactly.

[megasupermagnum]

Ok experts, I'll give you an easy one. Find a published load for a 1 1/2 oz buffered load in a 2 3/4" shell that you can still buy everything today.

[fastdadio]

Ok experts, I'll give you an easy one. Find a published load for a 1 1/2 oz buffered load in a 2 3/4" shell that you can still buy everything today.

Well, it's been over a year now. Guess it wasn't so easy then...
Just lurkin around, I'll be on my way.

[jim 44-40]

Ok experts, I'll give you an easy one. Find a published load for a 1 1/2 oz buffered load in a 2 3/4" shell that you can still buy everything today.So close,but so far away.If only they still sold Grex filler! 12 gauge Win compression formed hull,1 1/2 oz shot,Win 209, Win 571- 30.5grs,WWA12R and 16.0 grs Grex filler. Forgot about 571, I give up...

[megasupermagnum]

So close,but so far away.If only they still sold Grex filler! 12 gauge Win compression formed hull,1 1/2 oz shot,Win 209, Win 571- 30.5grs,WWA12R and 16.0 grs Grex filler. Forgot about 571, I give up...

There's also the problem that the Winchester compression formed hull hasn't existed for 10, maybe 15 years now. I'm sure we can all agree a Remington STS/Gunclub or a new Winchester AA hull is fine, but that is a substitution. I stand by my previous statement, or you have to be very resourceful at finding long discontinued vintage components.

[megasupermagnum]

Well, it's been over a year now. Guess it wasn't so easy then...
Just lurkin around, I'll be on my way.

I'm aware of 1, not 2, only a single 2 3/4 1 1/2 oz buffered load listed that you can buy every component today. That is if you are willing to pay for primers. I think that load used Win 209's. I don't remember the load from the top of my head, but it uses a WAA12r wad, which Claybuster still makes a clone. Depending on how things continue, there might be more loads if Remington starts making wads again.

I own over a two dozen shotgun reloading manuals dating from the 1960's to almost new Tom Roster manuals. That just goes to show how difficult it is to find listed loads. When someone comes out and says there are "thousands of published loads, you are an idiot not to use them", you can be certain they have never loaded anything except dull as dirt basic 7/8 oz to 1 1/8 oz lead target loads.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m still green at shot shell loading. Started with 10 gauge Blackpowder loads the spring before last. Mega helped me pick out my load which worked great on a double bearded gobbler. I’m working up 10 gauge 3.5” modern turkey loads for my browning gold. I have the bpi number seven “magazine” I call it. Are you in that Hodgdon Data has ONE listing for the only one of two powers I own for shotgun. I have HS-6 and green dot. Think I need to get some more powders! Also does anybody have any listings or whereabouts I can find more 10 gauge loads. Doesn’t really seem like there’s a lot of 10 gauge loads out there. I can find a bunch of old-school trap and light loads but not a lot of 2oz or heavier ones I would like for turkeys and predators. Kind of confusing since most say not to deviate. I made the mistake of loading up Winchester hulls with 209a federal primers using Chedite hull and another “weaker” primer data. It was basically three grains over a Winchester hull using a federal primer. I can tell you it had quite a bit more noticeable recoil than a factory load…and also patterned like a SOB! It was 39 grains of HS-6 and 2oz of #6 nickel plated shot. Federal with a fed 209a suggested 36 grains. I was debating on pulling them since I still have about eight left. But other than a good kick how do I tell if they’re overpressured or not? Extracted just fine and it didn’t pop a primer like I would guess it would on a rifle. I did load some up the other day with 36 grains. The patterns weren’t that great and the recoil felt weak compared to factory loads. Any help would be appreciated since I’m still learning with shotgun stuff, thanks guys!

I figured as blood trail said I’m probably safe other than it’s probably on the higher end of the pressure limits. Seems like 10 gauge loads using HS-6 in 2oz is all over the board…from 36 to 40 grains depending on the hull and primer choice.

[missionary5155]

Fellers... I recon we need 8 gauges !

[Tripplebeards]

Now you’re talking dirty! How about a 2 and a 4 gauge!!!

[Tripplebeards]

Well...here's a try at folding my once fired hulls today by hand and with my lee 3.5" vintage loader. I had an 8 point plastic starter I pushed them down with first. Since I watched a guy try and use a lee load all 2 crimp his 10 gauge hulls on YouTube I tried and failed. Crimped the hull pretty good. I smoothed it back out with my finger and started over. I pushed down again with my plastic lee crimp starter and then finished off my vintage lee set. They sure aren’t pretty!!! I only tried 2 hulls loaded the same with 36 grains of hs-6 and 2 oz of #5's again. I used a x10x and sp10 wad. They seemed to be perfect height. I loaded both in my gold 10 three timed and cycled manually. They fed and ejected smoothly! Apparently my gold doesn't mind the fugly crimps! I'll test and see it they pattern better or worse that the same load I made with roll crimp and OS card.

https://i.imgur.com/OZfyFQy.jpg
I even tried using my roll crimper afterwards to make the crimp "more round" but no luck.
https://i.imgur.com/39F5y6k.jpg
The one in the back is the the one I crumpled. It still feeds and cycles perfectly.

https://i.imgur.com/rbr3kq6.jpg


I will to get my hands on some buffer next.

[megasupermagnum]

Fellers... I recon we need 8 gauges !

I drool every time I see that BFG-1, the 4 gauge pump action. Using ten 45 caliber round ball as buckshot? I want that.

[fastdadio]

I drool every time I see that BFG-1, the 4 gauge pump action. Using ten 45 caliber round ball as buckshot? I want that.

Yeah, I was in artillery in the Army. I know what you mean.

[besk]

For shortened shells I only use fiber wads and roll crimp with reduced powder charges from published data. Not looking for maximum performance anyway.

[Eddie Southgate]

Always use the correct wad for the type of hull you are loading . I have substituted primers but try to stay with something in the same brisance range as the suggested primer or just use it if I have them. Check with Ballistic Products for load books that have other than the light target loads mentioned above. They do have specialty books for 16 gauge and I'm pretty sure they have one for 10 gauge that have heavy loads. They might even have one for Varmint type loads. I'm with dverna on shotgun loads, I seldom trust shotgun loads that are not developed in a lab with the proper test equipment. Compared to rifle or handgun loads shotgun loads are very low pressure even at max loads so it does not take much to get in a pressure range that can damage the gun and yourself. Not worth the risk to me.

[Tripplebeards]

I couldn't take it anymore looking at the crappy fold crimps I made. Pulled both and cut ome of the hulls to short. I'll save the shorty for black powder 10 gauge 2 7/8" loading.

At least I have one pretty one vs 2 junkyard dog loads.

https://i.imgur.com/tOZ8Bci.jpg

Guess I will hold off on loading anymore till I find another powder option along with some more hulls and other wads besides the sp10s

[Tripplebeards]

I tried two 3oz hand loads with the 10 gauge along with copper plated #5’s in my browning gold the other day. Got the load off of YouTube. The guy got his data from Hal at TSS. Said it was a low pressure load around 9,000 pressure. I tried two different wads. A BPD-10 and mega metal. The load I used is 45 grains of Lil gun. I had a black code Turkey Turkey tube in my gun. My guess is it needs a less constricted tube. I might load a couple again and try the factory modified,full, and xfull turkey factory browning tubes. I didn’t get much more pellet count at 40 yards vs my 12 gauges One and 7/8 and one and three-quarter ounce factory Remington 3 inch loads and also a pattern master tube in them. The 3oz did not kick very much. I would say it was noticeably less than a factory 2oz factory Winchester and federal turkey load that does pattern better at 40 yards than my hand load with that same code black tube.

10 gauge patterns with a code black turkey tube. I’d like to know where the other 500+ pellets went to? Probably the five or six turkeys that would’ve been standing around the one I shot? The pattern blew out pretty good with the .695 code black turkey tube. Guessing closer to a .720 or so constriction might keep the pattern from blowing out?

https://i.imgur.com/PhzHxVs.jpg

And here are my two 12 gauge berettas with swapping out the 12 gauge pattern master code black tube on both of them…

https://i.imgur.com/1j0zvGE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/I9RMHIL.jpg

I think the cheap tote wad choke patterned better last year

[Hogtamer]

Brother you are burning money. An old 20 ga with a full choke and 1 oz #6 shot will do better than those targets. 3 oz of shot?

[Tripplebeards]

I agree! I’m just not a fan of #5’s past 40 yards. Kind of defeats the purpose of owning a 10 gauge. I do use one and 5/8 ounce load of number six along with a 100 grains of FG in my old Damascus 10 gauge with real black powder. I think they probably pattern better.lol

It was just a fun experiment. That’s why only loaded two. Obviously, it sucks for patterns. My guess is a big wide modified choke tube would probably pattern way better with a 3 ounce load. Still a complete waste of shot I agree.

I used to use factory Remington 2 1/4 ounce number six loads for turkey hunting out of my 10 gauge and a gobble stopper choke tube. It look like my target was a screen at 40 yards. If I shot a bird out to 50 plus yards (which there was plenty of pellet count) it would hit the ground and then get up and run. I normally wait till they’re 20 or 25 yards now which doesn’t make any difference what I use for that. The old factory roll crimp federal grand slams and Winchesters with number fives pattern way better at 50 yards than the gun does with 3 ounce hand loads of #5 at 40 yards. I might have to buy a box of longbeard 3” #5’s and see how they pattern in my 12 gauges with the code black turkey choke. My guess is they will put the 10 gauge to shame. I have enough ammo laying around that I figured a half way decent pattern is acceptable at most of the ranges I shoot. I always used to chase a nice tight pattern with tons of pellets over the decades, but I realize it’s not really needed. I sure would like to get a little tighter patterns in both guns though.

I agree though… I wasted a lot of pellets just in 6 ounces of testing shot!… even if they all went into the 10 inch circle because it’s not needed for a turkey. Maybe if I was trying to knock 30 crow out of the sky at once.lol.

[megasupermagnum]

I wouldn't be surprised your blackpowder loads are better. In my muzzleloader with improved cylinder chokes, 1 5/8 oz of #6 puts 100 hits in a 10" circle at 35 yards. I'm not sure I can agree that #5 is a waste in 10 gauge. It does not take a whole lot to break a turkeys head, but it does take a lot to hit it. Plenty of people used #7.5 out to 40 yards, and I've never heard of a failure. I personally wouldn't, but in something like a 20 gauge, I absolutely would consider #7.5 as one of the best shot sizes for inside 35 yards. I know #6 is perfectly adequate to 45 yards, and it's my most used size for turkeys. Based on KYP ballistics, #5 will perform the same at about 55 yards. I've never got any 12 or 10 gauge to pattern well enough for a 55 yard shot. I think #5 is about ideal for 10 gauge turkey loads, but I understand if someone doesn't feel the same way.

I found a mean old 10 gauge load in a BPI buckshot and slug manual from the 80's. It's 2 1/2 oz of buffered shot with bluedot, surely meant for geese. I've got some loaded with #5, and at some point I'll try them out at 50 yards to see how they do. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow. I still maintain that #1 shot hardness, and #2 buffer are absolute keys to maximizing patterns. I'm not even convinced plastic wads help much if at all. If you aren't using the hardest shot you can get, and aren't buffering, you are wasting time. I too don't worry about maximum range as much as I used to. It's even less important now when hunting in SD, we can use handguns here. If I ever hang up a bird at 40-75 yards, it's getting a 327 federal sent through it.

[Coopaloop86]

I've worked in a ballistics lab for many years. After having seen 10s of thousands of combinations tested I can tell you that everything can have an impact, that being said 1. Wads are the biggest and most radical factor. A wad change can affect pressures several thousand PSI. 2. Modern shotguns can withstand a significant amount of force but the issue is there are no indicators in shotshell of high pressure before you reach the fail point. Just last week, was experimenting with a light slug load. Began hitting high pressures before reaching intended velocities. By simply switching to a more cushioned wad it allowed 4kpsi to be shaved off which allowed target velocity to be reached.

[megasupermagnum]

I've worked in a ballistics lab for many years. After having seen 10s of thousands of combinations tested I can tell you that everything can have an impact, that being said 1. Wads are the biggest and most radical factor. A wad change can affect pressures several thousand PSI. 2. Modern shotguns can withstand a significant amount of force but the issue is there are no indicators in shotshell of high pressure before you reach the fail point. Just last week, was experimenting with a light slug load. Began hitting high pressures before reaching intended velocities. By simply switching to a more cushioned wad it allowed 4kpsi to be shaved off which allowed target velocity to be reached.

I think you are right, but if people were at least half intelligent it wouldn't really be an issue. The problem is it seems a lot of people aren't very good at making deductions if you don't teach them. I completely believe that if you took a 1 1/8oz load meant for a Winchester AA wad, and instead used a steel shot wad like a TPS, added shot, and filled over the top with fillers to take up space, I can definitely see pressure going up thousands of PSI. If we take a much more reasonable look at it, I don't think it's as big of an issue. A reasonable person would not do that, they would be looking at something like a Remington figure 8 wad. I really find it hard to believe you are going to measure any significant pressure change when you make a wad substitution like that. I never worked in a lab, I just do this for fun. I've not seen these huge pressure swings from reasonable wad swaps. Reasonable being the key word.

Primers I think are the most significant of the components you can swap easily. A person who doesn't know much about reloading could easily make the mistake of putting a CCI 209M in place of a load that calls for a CCI 209. A reasonable person could make that mistake. Tom Armbrust had done some of that testing and research. Some loads showed no appreciable difference. Hodgdon testing found some more significant difference with International Clays powder. With a CCI 209 it was only 8,400 psi, with a CCI 209M it went to 10,400 psi.

I doubt you are ever going to get hurt swapping one thing, but it wouldn't take much to stack problems. Put a CCI 209M primer in there, set crimp a little too deep say .090", and get a slightly fast lot of powder, and you could be looking at a 15,000+ PSI load which still probably wont hurt anything with the extreme safety margin most shotguns have. Take it a step farther, say you are loading 3 1/2" 12 gauge which is normally operating north of 13,000 psi, it wouldn't take huge mistakes to get you up to that range you can start to see case failures.

I still maintain that going forward we should be educating reloaders on what they can and cant do, what does and does not make big differences. The current reloading manuals no tolerance "don't make substitutions or you will die" is fine to CYA, but it is no longer a practical solution in todays reloading market, and hasn't been for at least 10 years. Shotgun reloaders HAVE to be able to make certain reasonable substitutions. Some manuals have done this. A good example is Tom Rosters newest manual allows you to swap Winchester 209 and Cheddite 209 primers. He also lists hull substitutions you can do. Lyman needs to step up in their 6th manual.

[Coopaloop86]

I totally agree with you. I routinely substitute components in my personal reloading. Common sense goes a really long way, unfortunately common sense isn't real common nowadays. Again, you are totally correct in that it would take a substantial error or series of to cause issues in modern firearms. I have shot loads where everything seemed fine other than some punishing recoil to later find out it was rather over SAAMI spec. Shotshell has few if any indicators of problems without a specialized equipment. Maybe you'll get a sticky extraction? You hit the nail on the head. If you're going to make substitutions to published data, find similar items. Don't try to compare apples to asparagus.

[Graybeard96]

As Cap’N Morgan stated, seating pressure is the most overlooked and the most important factor that can affect chamber pressure. It’s the equivalent of seating a bullet’s OAL too deep.

However, I know I’m gonna get some backlash from this, but here goes:

You will never blow a shotgun up by subbing primers. You will never blow a shotgun up by subbing wads or hulls. I’m talking modern shotguns in good working order.

As many of you know I do a lot of pressure testing. Highest pressure I’ve purposely recorded was 28.7k psi with a double charge of a certain powder with a 1 oz shot payload.

Wanna know what happened to that Mossberg? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I still use it.

Shotguns can take a lot more pressure than people think. Tom Roster hit over 55k psi. Wrote he was able to an 870 barre up and while strong, they aren’t the strongest in the market.

So what exactly am I saying?

I’m saying to still be smart and pay attention when reloading. Don’t venture off the unpublished data path if you don’t have the knowledge or experience to do so.

The main jest of this is don’t tear down your loads because you mistakenly used a magnum primer when data called for a standard primer or you used a FED 12S4 when you should of used a WAA12. You’ll be just fine.


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I agree 100% and I am also a follower of Tom Roster (Shotgun Professor). Up here in Canada its hard or better actually almost impossible to get all the published ingrediency for a certain published Load using the Lyman Books. The more adventurous of us make do with what we have in this almost SHTF scenario.
I am currently loading 16 Ga. with # 4 Buckshot for which I don't have published Data. Would like to load # 1 Buckshot too but cant even get a Mold.

Cheers