Alloy for 35 rem and black bear?

[7.62Man]

Hi All,

I recently found a nice marlin 336 CS in 35 rem that followed me home :) Too bad budda got a hold of it and chopped the buttstock short. So while I wait for the new stock to come in from cabelas I want to work on loading up some rounds for it. I plan on doing a black bear hunt in Manitoba this spring and am told a 300-500lbs bear is not that uncommon. I normally use my 444marlin and some nice hard cast 330 grainers. But I want to try somthing new, I have purchased the Ranch dog 190 grain and the RCBS 35-200-FP.

I know the RD cast out of water dropped WW will work fine as expanion is not needed for a quick kill (wide meplat).

What alloy do you all cast your RCBS 35-200-FP out of? Do you use a pure lead nose and WW water dropped? The round will be sitting on top of 38 grains of H335 for around 2100 or so I hope.

Thanks
7.62man

[mainiac]

Ive been shooting the 35 rem alot with the rcbs200. In the 20 inch barrell,your 38 gr load h335 will be quite a bit lower than 2100 f.p.s. 38 grs will just barely do 2000 in my gun,which is about as fast as i can load it with accuracy. I last tried it with 10-1 ww babbit alloy,with water dropping. This alloy is pretty tough,but i still cant get 2100 f.p.s. without the gun shooting shotgun patterns. Aint killed nothing with cast with it yet,so I cant tell you about hunting bears.

[S.R.Custom]

If the guides tell you that a 500 pounder is more than just a possibility, take the .444; the .35 Remington is a deer rifle.

[Bret4207]

I don't know, I grew up in bear country and 3-500 lb blackies were pretty common back when the dumps were still running. Biggest one I ever saw shot was close to 500 and was killed with 38 Special RN. I think a 35 cal boolit, cast from WW, at close to 2000fps will do the job. Placement is the key. Old lady down the road killed several bear going after her sheep each year with either a 25-20 or 38-40. A guy I fished with carried an old Colt in 38-40 and killed several bears with it. I don't know, but I'd feel fine with a 35 Rem.

[S.R.Custom]

...A guy I fished with carried an old Colt in 38-40 and killed several bears with it. I don't know, but I'd feel fine with a 35 Rem.

Indeed, the annals of bear hunting history are full of tales of derring-do, but I don't think these are the well-fed furry dump pigs of your childhood. (I could be wrong, of course, as I'm intimately familiar with bear country here in the Northern Rockies, and the bruins here haven't been rendered soft and timid by socialized medicine and progressive representation in the legislature. But I digress...)

This is a spring hunt, so the possibility of running into a hungry sow with cubs is very real, and while they're illegal to hunt, you do run the risk of having to plant one anyway for no other reason than to keep her claws out of that favorite Filson. I make it a matter of personal policy when venturing into the woods to take a weapon large enough to handily dispatch the largest creature I'm likely to run across, and if I'm bear hunting in Canada, a Pennsylvania woodlot rifle wouldn't be my first choice.

But to put my personal biases aside for a moment... if you're dead-set (heh) on taking the .35 Remmie, I wouldn't screw around with hard cast bullets. Load up a proven expander, like the Sierra 200 grain roundnose, and push it as hard as you can. Keep adding that H335 until the extraction gets sticky, then back off 6%. Being jacketed, you'll be able to get that 2100 fps, and with a little better accuracy than minute-of-barn.

Remember... an adventure is a walk in the woods poorly planned. :mrgreen:

[Glen]

38 grains of H335 pushes the RCBS 35-200-GC just over 2100 fps out of my Marlin 336 RC (it's a little slower out of the 336 SC). I would expect it to work pretty well on black bear (but then we have pretty small black bear here in WA state...).

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree. theres a big dammed differnce in hunting were bears go 200 lbs then where they are running 500 lbs. A 500lb bear isnt all that easy to put down. If it were me id put the .35 away and step up to a 444 or 4570.

[waksupi]

I did kill a black bear wit ha .358 Win this past fall. But! I used a 260 grain boolit. I don't know if I would depend on a 200 gr. getting deep enough through a layer of fat, tough hide, and hair, at an unexpected angle.

[GabbyM]

I would not heat treat straight WW metal. Would make bullets brittle enough to blow their nose off with up close shots. Rather add 3% tin to WW for a pseudo Lyman #2 alloy.
For heat treated bullets I do like many here and cut WW 50/50 with pure lead. Then I add 1 ½ % or less tin. Heat in a 400 degree oven for 30 minutes then water quench. When I had a RCBS 35-200-FN mold it made boolits just over 220 grains with 50/50 plus tin alloy.

I don't see where the 444 would have much advantage over the 35 Rem. Higher BC of the 35 caliber 220 grain bullets would put them even in energy pretty quick. Now a 45-70 with 405 grain flat nose going about 1750 fps would be a step up.

[7.62Man]

Will save the 35 remy for this fall and take the 444 with my 330 grain hard cast getting around 2075fps with a load of H335.

I hate the idea of using condom bullets but will check the local shop see if they have any 200 grain hornaby/speers in stock.

Thanks guys

[missionary5155]

Good morning
My simple philosophy of hunting is this.... If it can bite back I am gonna bite it the first with the biggest chomper I got. Not saying a .35 wont do it... But I know a 45-70 will and if I get the chance I am gonna poke a bear with 12 bore Round Ball at 1600 FPS. Take that Bruin !
God Bless you !

[Bret4207]

Indeed, the annals of bear hunting history are full of tales of derring-do, but I don't think these are the well-fed furry dump pigs of your childhood. (I could be wrong, of course, as I'm intimately familiar with bear country here in the Northern Rockies, and the bruins here haven't been rendered soft and timid by socialized medicine and progressive representation in the legislature. But I digress...)



My bad. I didn't realize black bears turned bullet proof once ya cross the Mississippi. I stand corrected, nothing less than a Super Magnum will do.

And the award for "Condescending Post of The Year" goes to.......

[S.R.Custom]

My bad. I didn't realize black bears turned bullet proof once ya cross the Mississippi. I stand corrected, nothing less than a Super Magnum will do. In fact, you're as good as dead now.

And the award for "Condescending Post of The Year" goes to.......


Actually, you're not too far from the truth. Like most large game, bears grow larger the farther north you go. And the northern third of Manitoba is in fact grizzly bear country.

As for being condescending, well, if what you're used to are semi-tame dump scroungers, then I suppose I might seem that way. But there's a reason why bears are classified as dangerous game... And there's no shortage of ********* around here who claim to have taken large blackies armed with with no more than a dull fork. And I suppose that's their right. But the truth of the matter is, hunting bear with anything less than a .308 class rifle is dangerous to the hunter, inhumane to the bear, and I for one am going to do my part to discourage such practices. And if that's condescending, then so be it, because I'm not changing tack just because you say you know someone who shot one with Pappy's old Colt.

[Throwback]

The largest bear I am aware of in Maine was 610 pounds in 1987. Most run significantly smaller than this. Here in my home state we have a time-honored history of using tiny guns for deer, moose and bruins. L. L. Bean himself was a proponent of the .25 Remington. I am not an advocate for this myself and just so you know where I stand - I like to use a Barnes TSX in my .35 Whelen when I feel like I need it. However, I have used the .35 Remington and seen its use on a number of occasions. It has always been known as an effective black bear rifle and it has not been my experience that the ones around here are all that difficult to kill.

I have no experience with cast bullets and micro groove rifling so I don't know what you will run into at the velocities you are seeking. The load you site however is a good one and it should be quite adequate, but don't expect it to kill like lightning if you eschew your .444. It is probably not going to happen.

In cut rifled tubes (Remington) and velocity of 2,000 fps I use an alloy of 9-1 WW to Lino for a BHN of 14 to 15. This performs well on deer and results are not dissimilar to jacketed.

[bobk]

SuperMag,
I've never understood the idea of trying to shoot game with the smallest gun that might get the job done, most of the time. Now some hunters' experiences might be limited to shooting animals that aren't going to damage you even if you do screw it up, but if facing dangerous game, why wouldn't I take the biggest gun I have? One of my favorites is a .375. Although I have a box of solids, and some 300 Partitions loaded up, my generic load is a 235 X-Bullet at about 2960. It feels a lot softer than the 300s, but I think it would work for anything I am likely to encounter. If I can use it well, then why would I want to use anything less when my skin is at stake? It shoots flat, too. The .375 doesn't fit into a lever gun, of course, but it's just an illustration. What 7.62Man usually uses seems like a very good choice. If I wanted to try something different, as he said, it would be something even more capable, not less. A .45-70 with the Gould bullet would be a bit better.

Hunting is a sport; it shouldn't be a stunt.

Bob K

[Larry Gibson]

Hell, I'm with Bret4207. Black bears, even large ones are not that hard to kill. 7.62 will no doubt be in a tree stand or some other kind of blind taking the bears over bait. I've killed 3 BBs, the largest was 350+ lbs. I killed that one with a 30-30 with 311041HP cast of WQ'd magnum shot at driven to 2100+ fps. The bear was tree'd and the bullet went through the chest and exited out the top of a shoulder. The two smaller 20+ lb BBs where also tree'd and they were killed with a Combat Commander .45 ACP (1850 gr JHP) and a .44 Special (429421 at 1050 ps. Hell, in my younger years the .35 Remington was touted as "bear medicine".

To answer the question. I would cast the RCBS 35-200-FN of WW/lead at 50/50 ration. Drive fast (probably have to clean barrel every 7 or so rounds to maintain accuracy. Come to think of it; that's the exact load I ill use in my .35 Remington. But then I've not been reading all the "bear attack" stories of late. But then I'm also the guy who will go to Africa and hunt Mbogo with a .375 H&H and feel perfectly armed.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Actually, you're not too far from the truth. Like most large game, bears grow larger the farther north you go. And the northern third of Manitoba is in fact grizzly bear country.

As for being condescending, well, if what you're used to are semi-tame dump scroungers, then I suppose I might seem that way. But there's a reason why bears are classified as dangerous game... And there's no shortage of ********* around here who claim to have taken large blackies armed with with no more than a dull fork. And I suppose that's their right. But the truth of the matter is, hunting bear with anything less than a .308 class rifle is dangerous to the hunter, inhumane to the bear, and I for one am going to do my part to discourage such practices. And if that's condescending, then so be it, because I'm not changing tack just because you say you know someone who shot one with Pappy's old Colt.

Well, if I was used to semi tame dump scroungers that might be one thing. But I wasn't talking about dump bears that Guido and Vinnie used to shoot when they came up from NYC. I was relaying my experiences as one who has lived most of his life in bear country. I was pointing out that black bears aren't that hard to kill. How much deader than dead do you need?

I do find your post rude and condescending, typical of the west coast "everything's bigger here, especially our ego's" mentality. The Manitoba guide no doubt mentioned 500 lb bears, that's good salesmanship. What's the average though? 220 lbs from what I can find. How many 500+ lbs bears are there? If he's in Grizzly country then it's a different story. Use 444, use a 45/70, use a cannon for all I care. I just find it odd that the black bear west of the Miss. suddenly becomes this ultra tough man eater incapable of being handled with anything less than a howitzer.:roll:

[45r]

I'm going to work up a load for my 215 grain mtn mold boolits and a 220 speer condom bullet load for my Marlin 35 Rem and have no worries about it hunting almost anything out there.A well placed shot with a 220 grain 35 cal boolit will work.You have fast follow up shot capability in a levergun but you usually don't need it with a 35 Rem when handloaded to full potential.Your shot will probably not be all that far away and the 35 Rem has a well deserved reputation as a quick killing gun.I really like my 35 rem because I can practice a lot without pounding my shoulder like a big-bore.

[bobk]

45r,
You are right, with a well placed shot it will work. This is the beauty of the big gun, though. It works when you shot wasn't so well placed, and that happens to the best of us. I'm not talking about a California neck shot, just a fringy shot at the edge of the kill zone. Ain't very dramatic.

Bob K

[home in oz]

What about wild pigs?

35 Remington a bit small for that?

[fatnhappy]

What about wild pigs?

35 Remington a bit small for that?

Nope.

Much to my sorrow I find myself without a .35 rem for the first time in twenty years. It was the only rifle my father ever took hunting. It'll do just fine on bears. I've seen many many being skinned out with .35 cal holes in their hides. Most from Bret4207's backyard.

[7.62Man]

I spoke with the guide again and he told me the 35 rem would work fine. Lots of his hunter use compounds and stick bows around 50lbs draw weight. When I asked how many hunters last year took a 500lbs bear he told me only one (rather sheepishly and in the fall to boot! Bear are heavier in the fall). I asked what the average size bear taken in the spring and he told me 200-225lbs. My Father has taken many Black bear with his 30-30 and the lyman 31141 most around 180-225lbs here in ontario (not dump bears).

Thanks for all the ideas
7.62man

[WKAYE]

[QUOTE=GabbyM;471481
I don't see where the 444 would have much advantage over the 35 Rem. Higher BC of the 35 caliber 220 grain bullets would put them even in energy pretty quick. [/QUOTE]
:confused:
I think you need to go back to school on that one. I have 2XLR's, one in 35 Rem and one in 444. I can drive a 300gr RD bullet out of the 444 faster than even a 200gr in the 35Rem. Love them both, but there's no comparison in downrange power.
:castmine:

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont think anyone here would argue that a cast bullet in a .35 would not kill a bear. Bear arent all that hard to kill. But when you get into any animal that is approaching 500 lbs a bullet needs to perform right to reach the vitals. Problem with a small cast bullet is to do it reliably it needs to be hard and being hard your not going to get expansion. I think alot of it to is a mental thing. Ive shot quite a few bear. the biggest went about 350. Its allways unnerving to track a wounded bear even if there 200 lbs and a 500 lb bear has some pucker factor to it. Bear may not be hard to kill but where they differ from deer is you want them to go down within sight. Personaly to me that means a handgun no smaller then a 44 shooting a good heavy 300 grain bullet or something on the lines of a 444 or 4570 if you are using a rifle. The big bores definately put more slap on an animal. I wouldnt count on any 35 cal. rifle using cast bullets to dump a bear in its tracks. Not that it might not but like i said im not depending on it. Even though they may not be any harder to kill then a comparable sized deer they can do alot more damage wounded. I can shoot a deer with a 35 cast and track it threw the swamp without being nervous. I dont know of anyone in there right mind that will tell you that they love the challange of tracking a wounded bear. I may get roasted for saying it here but i think if i was hunting bear with a .35 and big bear were in the area id be using a premium jacketed load in my gun.

[cajun shooter]

I almost didn't post this as things were getting heated up and had passed the point of an exchange of information between gentleman. I've been on two BB hunts in Quebec, one in 04 and the 2nd in 06 at different lodges. Both sent out pictures of huge bear that had been killed with their service. I carried a Remington 300 SAUM loaded with Noslers. My first hunt ended on the last day of a 7 day hunt with 10 minutes left to shoot. A 100 lb bear rug came back to Louisiana. Laugh if you want but a 4000 mile round trip drive that cost out the butt was not going home empty. This was a no guarantee hunt. The second hunt ended with me only seeing the 100- 150 lb bears which I didn't shoot. The guide tells me you should have shot as a 100lb bear is all that you might see. Check out the fine print and ask the questions that will get you another hunt if no large bear are seen. Guides are not going to tell you this until you are in camp and paid. They all shoot 500lb bears, but that was last week or next week. Hope your luck runs better.

[waksupi]

I still think the .35 is plenty caliber wise. I'd just prefer a bit heavier boolit.

[Irascible]

"I still think the .35 is plenty caliber wise. I'd just prefer a bit heavier boolit" I agree and add - and with more nose area aka Meplat. I always thought that the RCBS bullet seemed more of a target bullet. I use an Old West Hammer head of 250gr with a wide flat nose. I cast 10 lbs ww/9 1/2 lbs pure and 1 lb of 50/50 solder. I also shoot it out of a 35 Winchester or 358 Winchester at 2000 fps.
BUT, when it's all said and done, the last Bear hunt I went on, I took my 45-70. Hit it in the neck while it was eating and it fall as if it was pole axed.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive probably killed as many black bear as anyone here has. Some small some big. Ive used everything from a 44 spec in a handgun to a 300wby. Bear are not hard to kill but can do alot of damage in a very short time. Another problem with them is they dont tend to run off like a deer. They will usuallly not go far when wounded. they will lay down in the vacinity to die and i hope your not in the vacinity before that happens. If your dog hunting and the bear will be treed you can get away with the smaller guns. But me personaly i wouldnt want to stand toe to toe with a 500 lb black bear with just a 35 rem shooting a cast bullet. A bear AINT NO DEER and God has given him weapons that can kill you. Im usually one that preaches that gun writers are nuts for saying smaller guns arent enough for hunting but when it comes to bear i will error on the heavy side. If you ever skinned a really large bear and saw how think there hide is and how big boned they are youd do the same. They are a much harder target to put a bullet through then any deer and that even includes elk and moose.

[7.62Man]

Have used the 444 marlin on bear with the 330 grain (Fryxell clone steched out) and it packs a punch. The 35 remington will stay home on this trip.

[Bret4207]

"I spoke with the guide again and he told me the 35 rem would work fine. Lots of his hunter use compounds and stick bows around 50lbs draw weight. When I asked how many hunters last year took a 500lbs bear he told me only one (rather sheepishly and in the fall to boot! Bear are heavier in the fall). I asked what the average size bear taken in the spring and he told me 200-225lbs. My Father has taken many Black bear with his 30-30 and the lyman 31141 most around 180-225lbs here in ontario (not dump bears)."




Have used the 444 marlin on bear with the 330 grain (Fryxell clone steched out) and it packs a punch. The 35 remington will stay home on this trip.

Having a hard time making your mid up ,eh?[smilie=1:

[Throwback]

Guys - don't overate the black bear too much. I cannot say that I have ever heard of one charging when they are shot. Moreover they fall to the .308, the .30-06, and even the lowly .30-30. The .35 has been justly popular for many years as a black bear rifle and it is not a grudging minimum. It lacks range but it is amply powerful and I would not have a moment's regret to use a model 81 so chambered on any black bear. Most of us would think nothing of using a .41 or .44 magnum on a black bear. A .35 Rem trumps both - cast is no handicap in this caliber with the right alloy.

[7.62Man]

What alloy do you suggest?

[Throwback]

I hear a lot of folks in these threads recommending very soft alloys and running them at modest velocities. These folks also seem to tolerate "flashing" and leading that I consider prima facie evidence that a harder alloy is warranted. I do not doubt that their bullets obturate (expand) very well. But, a rifle bullet can be run between 1,800 and 2,000+ fps instrumental velocity and perform with perfect satisfaction at normal impact distances with an alloy that runs from about 14 to 16 BHN.

Naturally there are many ways to get there. My own not very scientific recipe is about 9 or 10 to 1 WW to Linotype. If you lack a hardness tester, this will put you in the ballpark. I also throw in bullets and pure lead that I manage to scrounge from time to time and add Lino to adjust the hardness. Hardness testers and linotype are both worthwhile investments.

It is more challenging to get truly gilt-edged accuracy at the higher velocities but the .35 Remington is amenable. In any event I am not looking for MOA from my hunting loads. It is just not needed. I work up the most accurate load I possibly can and adjust my range accordingly if I have to. I am usually quite happy with where I end up.

These bullets have delivered very well for me on game and they will expand regardless of nose configuration. I have found that they hold together well enough to fully penetrate. About the only thing that I cannot verify is how well they work against heavy bone. Against deer and black bear you have no worries.

[7.62Man]

14-16BHn I can cook up without a problem. Have been using the lee hardness tester for the last year and really like it. Took me a while to use it correctly.

Thank-you for the info.

[KirkD]

I grew up in central Manitoba, on a farm near the Riding Mountain National Park. Some blacks, according to the CO's, weighted close to 1,000 pounds in the fall. A bear that weighed under 300 pounds was considered a small bear. I think most of us shot problem black bears, myself included; they were very plentiful in the 60's and 70's (don't know now, as I left the farm in '73). Having said all that, virtually all of us used either a 30-30 or a 303 British. The shear number of big bears that local farmers took with these two cartridges, and their success rate, where 1-shot kills were the norm, would make me very confident with the 35 Remington's ability to take a bear. I would have no qualms whatsoever about using it for Black Bear.

As far as what alloy to use with your 35 Remington, I'm afraid I can't help much there, as the closest thing I have is a 30-30, in which I have found that water dropped wheel weights and a gas-checked RCBS 180 grain bullets is most accurate. If you are worried about bullet break-up at close range, you can experiment. I usually fire it at close range (15 feet) into green (not dry) hardwood, preferably into a knot. I line up several pieces of wood and split the one with the bullet in it. Bullet disintegration is not as bad a problem as you might think. In fact, I've yet to encounter a case of that happening for me with a wide variety of bullets, calibers, and alloys, but maybe I've not tried the hardest cast bullets (I prefer the softest cast that will shoot accurately in my rifles without any leading or 'flash'); I'm not a fan of hardcast unless absolutely necessary for accuracy.

[joedapro]

I grew up in central Manitoba, on a farm near the Riding Mountain National Park. Some blacks, according to the CO's, weighted close to 1,000 pounds in the fall. A bear that weighed under 300 pounds was considered a small bear. I think most of us shot problem black bears, myself included; they were very plentiful in the 60's and 70's (don't know now, as I left the farm in '73). Having said all that, virtually all of us used either a 30-30 or a 303 British. The shear number of big bears that local farmers took with these two cartridges, and their success rate, where 1-shot kills were the norm, would make me very confident with the 35 Remington's ability to take a bear. I would have no qualms whatsoever about using it for Black Bear.

As far as what alloy to use with your 35 Remington, I'm afraid I can't help much there, as the closest thing I have is a 30-30, in which I have found that water dropped wheel weights and a gas-checked RCBS 180 grain bullets is most accurate. If you are worried about bullet break-up at close range, you can experiment. I usually fire it at close range (15 feet) into green (not dry) hardwood, preferably into a knot. I line up several pieces of wood and split the one with the bullet in it. Bullet disintegration is not as bad a problem as you might think. In fact, I've yet to encounter a case of that happening for me with a wide variety of bullets, calibers, and alloys, but maybe I've not tried the hardest cast bullets (I prefer the softest cast that will shoot accurately in my rifles without any leading or 'flash'); I'm not a fan of hardcast unless absolutely necessary for accuracy.

kirk
i dont know what the blackie record is. but i don't think you will find any at 1000 pounds. thats large even for a griz. i was in ely minnesota at the bb sanctuary and i remember them saying that the bear they had there was the largest on record and he was no where near 1000 pounds. he was fed by tourists and was so fat he could not get out of his own way if he had to.

[Bret4207]

Anyone says they've even seen , much less weighed a BB that went 1K is full of it. I've seen dozens of 275lb deer and 4-500 lb BB that ended up being 160 lb deer and 200 lb BB. I appreciate a good lie as well, if not more, than the next guy, but there are limits.

WQWW alloy should hold together fine in BB up to 1800-2K.