Choice for 10 year old hunter hunting from a blind

[dverna]

The youngster regularly gets a 1.5" five shot groups from the bench using a .223.

The blind is positioned to afford shots up to 200 yards down a shooting lane. The most common shot is at 100-135 yards where the shooting lane T's to the food plot.

There are three choices. One is to load Winchester 64 gr PP's or Noslers in the .223. The second choice is to download a .30/30 M336 using a 150 gr MP312-159 HP or FP 20:1 cast bullet at about 1700-1800 fps. I also have a Marlin 1894 in .357 and could load something like a 158 gr XTP or hollow point MP 358-429.

There are scopes on each rifle.

I am leaning to the .223 for its greater range and accuracy. Plus he is familiar with it. He has shot the 1894 with .38 Spl loads as well. I have not used the MP 312-159 so I would need to work up a load for the .30/30. If using the .357, I would just buy a couple of boxes of XTP's.

What would you do and why?

[TMB]

Another option would be to keep velocity up and load the 30-30 with a lighter bullet, people use the 7.62x39 with its lighter bullets all the time.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd figure the heaviest in .223 would be OK.
I'd also spend some time teaching him shot placement too.
Nothing wrong with the .223 at those ranges if it hits the right spot.

[DougGuy]

Give him what he's already comfortable and confident with, let him shoot the others off season and then see if he has a preference.

Has he shot any deer shaped targets that teach shot placement?

[JohnH]

I've shot 2 deer with my AR and that bullet my neighbors grandson has done the same. The only issue I have with the AR is that it does not leave a blood trail one can follow. The holes are small and easily covered by the hide as the deer moves away for the hit and when there is an exit it is caliber size. But the bullet is a killer for sure. Heart and longs look like they were hit with a 30-30, but do remember that bullet placement is everything, and for this reason I tend to think of the 223 as a experts rifle when it comes to hunting. But if your grandson is patient and level headed about shooting, takes the time to make the shot count, the 223 will do the job. DougtGuy has it right, he's been shooting the AR, is comfortable with it and is making good hits. A new gun at this point could spook him. Just keep your eyes on the deer and remember they are experts at hiding and have great camouflage.But a bullet in the boiler will be deer in the freezeer.

[Kylongrifle32]

Have him use what he shots best. Shot placement is the key to success.
I have helped several nieces and nephews start out hunting with either a 300 blk out AR or 223 Savage Axis.
With the 223 we were using 62gr Tula HP's. For a Hp these are a heavily constructed bullet. Deer shot in the chest cavity went down fairly quickly.
I would hate to not recommend a cast Boolits in the 30/30 but a lighter Boolit at reduced velocity might not produce a good blood trail or break down a shoulder properly enough to anchor a deer. If your hunting in a heavily wooded area this would be my concern. A lost deer might become an unwelcome experience for a new hunter.
I have no experience with the 357 mag on deer. I have take many deer with a 44 mag pistol. The 357 mag out of a carbine barrel should be a good choice with good expanding bullets. Not sure how they will hold up to shoulder shots. Hopefully some one with real world experience will chime in.

[jonp]

At this point in the year give him what he has been shooting well and load it as heavy as he can comfortably shoot it without a flinch. A 100yrd shot with the 357 would do it but 200 imho is pushing it but my only experience with it on whitetail was with a pistol at 35yrds. The 30/30 loading up to where he can shoot it well would be my preference but he has been shooting the 223 so stay with it although I'm not a fan but there have been too many reviews of well placed shots with the right ammunition to discount. He seems to be a good shot so that won't be a problem.

[popper]

30/30 FTX will get him choosing proper shorter shots, used to gun that recoils. Don't need more pansyfied hunters.

[NSB]

I like the the .357 because I’ve shot a lot of deer with it, but you’d be denying him shots at the longer distances without a lot of experience allowing for holdover. It’s pretty much a 100 yard gun for most adults, let alone a youngster. I’d opt for the .223 and a Barnes all copper bullet. It’s pretty much a “just hold where you want to hit” trajectory at the distances you indicate. These bullets stay together, are easy to get good loads with, and if he’s comfortable with the gun he’ll shoot it better. The Nosler bullets will work ok if that’s all you have. Bullet placement is the key with any choice of cartridge so it’s best he shoot what he shoots best. If he puts one in the boiler room it won’t matter what cartridge he uses, but he has to be on target with whatever he uses. Just my two cents.

[Mk42gunner]

As soon as you set him up with a downloaded rifle that is only good to maybe 150 yards, the biggest buck he will ever see will step out into the clear at 200 yards. Just the way the red gods work.

If this is going to happen within the next month or so; I would set him up with the .223 he is already familiar with, and make sure he has a steady rest. Next year you can go with something larger.

While I'm not all that enamored with using the .223 or any other small caliber for deer, they will work with proper shot placement.

Robert

[rockrat]

Go with the 223. the 64gr PP or the Nosler partition would be a good choice

[versa-06]

I'd go with 223, maybe next year come up with a 243, faster powder like AA2015, & an 85-87 gr bullet @ 2900-3000 fps. This will still be very low recoil with plenty of punch. Please don't rush recoil on a young fella.

[CastingFool]

If he can hold 1-1/2" groups from the bench, have him aim for the neck, just below the head. The deer will most likely drop on the spot.

[memtb]

2 of my grandsons and a granddaughter all took their first deer using a .243 Win. from a blind! One was only 5 or 6 years old.....I can’t remember his exact age!

Given your option list, though I hate it as a deer cartridge.....the .223. He’s comfortable with it, and it will shoot considerably flatter than the other two.....making it more forgiving if the range gets stretched-out a bit! memtb

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Are the woods open enough to visually track the deer for 100-150 yards? Snow on the ground?

[dverna]

I should have added the .223 is not an AR. It is a Howa mini-Mauser. The Howa is a light and handy gun.

And this is for next year when he will be 10, so we have time to experiment.

TMB, you make a good point about a lighter bullet. I could load a 125 gr spitzer in one of the .308’s at 2400 fps. Should have a PBR of 200 yards and recoil should be mild enough.

Also good advice about shooting at deer targets to ingrain shot placement. We can do that cheaply by printing reduced size pictures at 25 yards and using the PCP’s.

Love this forum!

[Tripplebeards]

I finally tried a 243 for the first time on a deer this year. Used my little 1967 Remington 600 with a 90 grain ballistic tip. Bang flop!…and very little recoil. It was a heart and lung shot. I also shot one with my 300 RUM that went a good 125 yards with a broken leg and blown apart heart. The 300 RUM hit my eye so I switched to the 243. I’ll be using my 243 over it now.

Between your options above I’d pick the 30-30 so you have a blood trail if needed. I’ve heard a lot of similar stories with zero blood trails from a 223.

[Texas by God]

The .223 will kill deer with a good shot, just like every other cartridge that we've ever talked about. From a blind, with a steady rest for accuracy, no problem. I've only killed three deer with the .223- all DRT with 55gr sp- but I've killed quite a few with the 22-250 and the farthest one ran after the shot was 40 yards.
This year my .223 AR15 and my Tikka 22-250 are both using the 60gr Hornady sp at maximum velocity. I'm confident with either one from the blind. Still hunting, or pushing through the thickets I'll use a "real deer rifle".
Enjoy the hunt with your grandson!

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[dkf]

I'd either use a bonded jacketed bullet above 60gr or a monometal bullet like the Hornady GMX or Barnes TSX in the .223. Load them towards the upper end. The heavier more solidly constructed bullet will have a better chance of existing and making a bigger blood trail if it runs. Less chance of blowing up if it hits a bone too. Helps to have room for error because nobody makes a perfect shot every single time.

[rockrat]

Try the 30-30 or 308 with a Speer 130gr FP or Sierra 125gr hp. designed for the 30-30

[megasupermagnum]

I'd move the blind about 50 yards closer, and just shoot whatever you feel like.

[HWooldridge]

My 8 year old grandson just killed his first deer with his dad’s AR in .223. He has been shooting the rifle for about a year, with a suppressor and a good scope. The doe dropped with one hit to the shoulder. They were using 60 gr SP bullets.

[skeettx]

Use the proven rifle, he has enough other things to think about
Mike

[Dinny]

Send the Howa to JES for a 350 Legend rebore and rechamber. 357 Maximum ballistics in a bolt action.

Thanks, Dinny

[725]

Although on the light side, Speer makes a good 70 grain for the .223. Placed well, it does the trick.

[AnthonyB]

Don, expanding the horizon a bit since this is for next year and we all need something to do until then.

You don’t use .30 cast to hunt, so don’t set your grandson up with something you don’t trust. You/he would always wonder about the choice if something went poorly. Why not have him use one of your 308 Win bolt guns with a lighter bullet? No new manual of arms to learn and keeps things simple. He might have LoP issues, but the main issue is that you may lose a rifle. I “used” to have a Sako full stocked 308 carbine until my son’s first hunting trip. I thought he would pick the lever action…

The 5.56 works on Alabama deer. I think yours are probably larger, but 5.56 through the lungs should work well. Got any 70 grain Speer round noses from 30 years holed up anywhere?
Tony

[AnthonyB]

Just saw the 70 grain Speers are still out there. I would buy them and not look back. I have an old article on them as deer bullets in a 22-250.
Tony

[sigep1764]

Best Friends son used my 223 Axis this last fall for his first deer. 20 grains of 748 and a 75 grain Miha boolit left an exit hole the size of a golf ball at 50 yards. He can hold a 1.5 to 2 inch group with it at 100 yards. Cans don't stand a chance with this kid. If he's good with the 223, keep letting him build some confidence with it until he gets the itch for something new.

[1hole]

Since the kid is already familiar with and shoots the .223 well, that's the rifle he should use; there's nothing to be gained by him using either of the others.

Proper shot placement on deer is always important but some people make it too specific and therefore difficult to locate. Truth is, the lethal zone is a moderately large area, not a tiny pinpoint spot.

From whatever the shooter's view, the proper place to hold is with the vertical cross wire half way between the front legs and the horizontal wire halfway between the visible high point and low point of the body. A hit within 3 inches of the center of that very easy to see heart-lung-liver place will bust his bubble and kill as well as any other. (Well ... anything save a "drop right there" spinal hit but that's smaller and therefore a much less reliable spot to aim for!)

Good luck on you and the kid! :)

[Lloyd Smale]

want something that punches above its weight. get a ruger american in 300 bo and load some 110 barnes x bullets. Ive shot 9 deer with the bo (in ars) All between a 100 and 200 yards and all but one was a bang flop shot and the one that ran made two leaps and piled up. LOTS of internal damage and an exit on every one of them. Much better deer round then a 556.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I think moving the blind closer makes good sense. My youngest got his first deer at 10 from a ground blind with a 20 gage 870 youth. We chose that gun because he had shot it at clays so often. But the range was only about 50 feet. A couple years later we got him a Savage in .243 and he got a decent 6 point first time out with it at about 50 yards.

[Rapier]

The 223 and shot placement is everything, so he will need to pick his shot.

[badguybuster]

Ive had great results with the 75 grain Speer Gold Dot in 223 BUT you could swap.the barrel to 300blk and have a much better hunting round. That being said my kids all learned to hunt using a 357 mag levergun

[Thumbcocker]

How big are the deer he will be shooting at?

[dverna]

How big are the deer he will be shooting at?

I do not see big deer in my area. Normally about 125 lbs. A 175 lb deer would be big. But I am guessing. I do not scale them. It takes two of us to lift a deer into the back of a pickup or UTV and it never feels like I am lifting more than an 80lb bag of cement....so double that is 160 lbs. But most are smaller.

[Bigslug]

Buddy of mine killed a Texas "Hogzilla" of a boar testing the factory Barnes 5.56 62 grain TSX load.

A single quartering-away shot punched through 18"-24" of pig, did it's job on the thoracics and was stopped by the heavy structure on the opposite side. As I recall, he was already running when shot, and piled up inside of 75 yards.

Load it right, shoot it straight, the round will do.

[KWJohnston]

My Opinion....I will always suggest the bigger bore. The 30-30 loaded a bit lighter OR a good 357mag (no hollow point) load makes an excellent kids first hunting cartridge! The .223 is dependant on good shot placement and not hitting heavy bone that I personally don't like to endorse it for kids. I've been hunting for decades, I still get excited at the sight of nice Buck. I have to slow my breathing, relax, and steady my aim. It's hard for a youngster to do that sometimes.

Wounding a Deer and loosing it would be much more disappointing to a young hunter, than a small increase in recoil. The bigger caliber just has more margin for error.

I will be starting my Daughter on Centerfires soon. A reduced load, flat nose cast boolit will probably be what she takes her first big game animal with.

[dverna]

want something that punches above its weight. get a ruger american in 300 bo and load some 110 barnes x bullets. Ive shot 9 deer with the bo (in ars) All between a 100 and 200 yards and all but one was a bang flop shot and the one that ran made two leaps and piled up. LOTS of internal damage and an exit on every one of them. Much better deer round then a 556.

Lloyd, is this the bullet?

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0003530341/30-caliber-point308-diameter-110-grain-tsx-triple-shock-x-bullet-flat-base-50-count

I am leaning towards loading it in the .308 T/C Compass I have at about 2400 fps to duplicate .300 BO performance that worked for you. I have H4895 so I can load down to 60% of full power safely and work up from there.

I have never done reduced loads in the .308 but H4895 seems the best powder I have to achieve .300BO performance in the .308. I am not interested in acquiring a new rifle/caliber or a barrel for one of the AR's and frankly do not want the boy to hunt with an AR. No "Rambo's" in this house...LOL.

As to loads, I found this:
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/site/ballisticstudies/files/Hodgdon%20H4895%20reduced%20load%20data.pdf

I noted they used pistol bullets to insure expansion at the lower velocities. But what you did worked so I am going to go with the Barnes bullet you suggested. 60% of H4895 looks like a starting load of 30 gr.

If anyone can run a Quickload on that load in the .308 (110 gr Barnes, 30 gr of H4895, Win LRP, LC brass) it would be appreciated. Rifle has a 22" barrel.

[psweigle]

I have killed a lot of deer with a 357 magnum, a few with a 30-30, and not one with a 223. That said, given your stated situation, I wouldn't even hesitate to have him use the 223. He is obviously comfortable with it and his grouping will surely put the bullet in the ethical kill zone. A jacketed soft point of course.

[kingrj]

Pick what ever gun/caliber he can consistently hit with...shot placement is 90% of the game...

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with the use of the 223 Rem since he already has proven he can shoot it well. I also suggest the use of the 62 gr Winchester PP as it is a proven hunting bullet. This mulie was taken down with one shot using it out of a 20" barreled .223/5.56 AR with a 9" twist. It was loaded to 2900 fps over AA2460 powder.

294041

[Smoke4320]

Winchester 62 gr PP with proper shot placement will be the key
Good luck to him..
I suggest lots of training as you said with reduced deer targets and the PSP rifles. follow that with as many days as you can leading up to deer season with 1 223 shot at 100 yds on paper deer till it becomes habit

[popper]

Yes, H489 reduces well. Or 2400, several others. Problem I have with starting kids on 22lr or light recoil is they NEVER can get used to anything bigger! Yours has a year to get used to it. Yup, I did shoot 22 shorts as a kid, first rifle was 06 Garand. No problem.
Gun choice for kids? Several yrs ago I went on a kids deer hunt 15 kids, most had 243 as my GKs did. All but one got deer and several got big hogs. They all wanted to hunt. I have 4 G boys. One likes hunting (ar15) and his bro likes shooting (ar10), got 2 others that have shot rifle, pistol and shot gun but it's not their 'thing'. Went to AR with a bunch of kids. 6 yr old shot my BO pistol and 9mm. First time for any of them and there was NO 22lr. Several did well with ar10 factory stuff. Even my 30/30. I came back with about 50# of empty brass. 2 of the kids were gals! Ages were 6 to 15. They all had lots of fun. One teen gal went shopping, guns not her thing. My point - Get them started on bigger stuff, they will like or not. If they have the desire, they will do well. Yes, I had a junk 22 rifle as a 10 yr old. Junk - load rnd and pull back on handle at back of bolt to cock. ***, sear was a notch in the firing pin. Like the crickets! I didn't shoot out my eye but it was worn out, given to me by another kid. Mom (Quaker) didn't know I had it.

[Lloyd Smale]

no don the black tipped one. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0003530321/300-aac-blackout-300-whisper-point308-diameter-110-grain-tac-tx-fb-50-count it goes around 2300 out of a 16 inch barrel. Its specificaly designed for the bo and expands great and still penetrates. Im not a fan of barnes bullets. Ive just chased to many deer with tiny exit wounds and little to no blood trail do to lack of expansion. I wont even use them anymore in anything under 7mm but that bullet for the bo just plain works.

[Lloyd Smale]

Pick what ever gun/caliber he can consistently hit with...shot placement is 90% of the game...

It is if your hunting wide open spaces or hunting where theres always snow to track, but ive seen many deer hit that just made a couple hundred yards and was lucky to recover them and thats hit perfect behind the shoulder. If you think deer just drop dead you havent shot many deer. I much prefer to much gun to marginal guns. Id rather loose 10lbs of meat then loose a whole deer. Tell me you havent lost one and again ill tell you you havent shot many. You cant kill an animal to dead. Ive killed them with 223s and even 30 carbines but never was impressed. Either they drop or youd better have polished up your tracking skills. When i hunt i look at where im shooting. If its a field that will likely give me shots out to 200-300 yard shots calibers start with the 2506. If its past 300 give me a mag any day of the week. If i could only have one gun for anything from 50 to 400 yards it would be the good old 06. Another thing ill say is picking the least powerful gun for a beginning deer hunter is a mistake. take the time to let them master a real gun. My grandkids all shot 308s or 3006s just fine even at 12 years old. My grandaughter first gun at 14 years old was one of my 280 winchester featherwieghts. Never once heard her complain about it kicking to hard. You have to convince them that yup they jump but they really dont hurt you if there held right. Tell them they kick like hell and there going to run home crying. Guns like the 223 and 300bo will kill. No doubt about it. But there guns for experienced shooters who absolutely know there not going to have buck fever or not be able to place the bullet perfectly.

[todd9.3x57]

i use a 165gr ranch dog (173gr actually) with a charge of h4198 that goes 1924fps in a 30-40 krag. i and my son have killed around 20 deer and every one was DRT. the furthest is 173 yards on a doe that my son killed(using a laser range finder). the shortest is around 20+/- yards made by me. every shot was either on the shoulder or behind the shoulder and they did a complete pass thru.

right and left boolits are the 165gr RD. 50 yards the left stopped and was dug up by me
https://i.imgur.com/KpSDgjf.jpg

oh yeah, i'm disabled and hate recoil!!!!!! 1800-1900fps using COWW and a little bit of tin will kill a deer at 200 yards without recoil. i'd go with the 30/30 and 1700-1900fps with the MP312-159 FN or the ranch dog. or there is a 160gr hornady ftx, but i never did it. i think that 1400fps is the absolute minimum for expansion, I THINK!!!!

altho i would not kill a deer with .22 caliber(i have killed one doe with a 22-250ai because i could do it), an experienced guy/gurl could/would anything a .257" caliber. inexperienced guy/gurl would be at least 7mm-08 or a 30-30.

[LIMPINGJ]

Your 223 is about like my 222Mag and I have no trouble taking Texas Whitetail with 55 gr soft points.

[Jedman]

Well deer season is over for this year so he has almost another year to practice shooting and possibly using different rifles. By next season I would let him choose the rifle he is most confident in and shoots the most accurately. If he sticks with the 223 be sure he has the best ammo you can choose and I assume he will have you or another adult in the blind with him to be sure the shot angle and situations is right before he sends one.

Jedman

[dverna]

V
Well deer season is over for this year so he has almost another year to practice shooting and possibly using different rifles. By next season I would let him choose the rifle he is most confident in and shoots the most accurately. If he sticks with the 223 be sure he has the best ammo you can choose and I assume he will have you or another adult in the blind with him to be sure the shot angle and situations is right before he sends one.

Jedman

Yep, I will be right next to him....would not miss a moment like that. Shooting a deer at less than 200 yards is no big deal to me...to a boy...it means a life long memory I want to be part of.

[John McCorkle]

I should have added the .223 is not an AR. It is a Howa mini-Mauser. The Howa is a light and handy gun.

And this is for next year when he will be 10, so we have time to experiment.

TMB, you make a good point about a lighter bullet. I could load a 125 gr spitzer in one of the .308’s at 2400 fps. Should have a PBR of 200 yards and recoil should be mild enough.

Also good advice about shooting at deer targets to ingrain shot placement. We can do that cheaply by printing reduced size pictures at 25 yards and using the PCP’s.

Love this forum!Agreed

This site is awesome, so many deep rabbit holes to dive into and get lost in haha.



Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

[Eddie Southgate]

Find a .243 for him . I started both of my boys on .243 with 100 grain sp and 34.5 grains of IMR 4320 . It is fast enough to reliably expand about any 100 gr sp even though it is a minimum load . It is also soft shooting and the most accurate load I have ever used in the many .243 rifles we have owned over the years . Both are grown now and both still hunt with their original .243 rifles and this load .

[quilbilly]

Many, many years ago my first buck was taken with a .222 Rem. from about 70 yards. It never took a step - DRT. It was at a time when bullets(JSP's) were all supposed to be explosive so, as a teenager, I downloaded that bullet to just over what I now know to be CB velocity (2300 fps). The expansion was perfect when my Dad found it while cutting it up.

[dverna]

Find a .243 for him . I started both of my boys on .243 with 100 grain sp and 34.5 grains of IMR 4320 . It is fast enough to reliably expand about any 100 gr sp even though it is a minimum load . It is also soft shooting and the most accurate load I have ever used in the many .243 rifles we have owned over the years . Both are grown now and both still hunt with their original .243 rifles and this load .

Adding a rifle is not something I wish to do....especially a .243. I got rid of the following calibers over the last few years, .243 Win. .243 WSSM, 6mm, .25/06, as I had no practical use for them. If a person can shoot, only two calibers are needed (vs wanted) to handle anything in Michigan, a .223 and .308. Investing $800 in a gun, scope, dies and cases that lack long term usefulness does not make sense.

I like Lloyd's recommendation of the Barnes 110 gr bullet at .300 BO velocities. The longest shot the boy will get is 200 yards. Lloyd has harvested more deer than most, and I trust his judgement as it is based on multiple kills. Yes, I trust his judgement even though he is a Yooper...LOL.

I will load some up and see how he does. Recoil with the 110 gr Barnes @ 2400 fps looks about the same as the .243 load you are using (100 gr at 2600 fps) so not gaining anything by spending $800.

If he "gets into it", we will get him a .308 or .30/06 when he gets older as his all-round hunting rifle. Not much on this continent one of those calibers cannot handle.

[popper]

shot my 30/30 today, 9.5 unique under 145gr PB PC. Did fine, less recoil that factory 243, more like 22lr. 2 2 shot touching groups, inch apart, probably me. 1600 fps. Just a front bag. My 170 RD does about same with more unique. Wild ones were BO pushed too hard & leaded barrel.
294104

[jonp]

want something that punches above its weight. get a ruger american in 300 bo and load some 110 barnes x bullets. Ive shot 9 deer with the bo (in ars) All between a 100 and 200 yards and all but one was a bang flop shot and the one that ran made two leaps and piled up. LOTS of internal damage and an exit on every one of them. Much better deer round then a 556.

I was going to suggest the 300 BO as I like mine but have not used it on game. Many good reports with it, though, including yours and the recoil is very low. Easy for a 10yr old to handle as I was using a 12g and 30-30 at that age but every kid is different. Rush one and you will get a flinch that is hard to rectify. At deer camp someone thought it would be funny to hand me a 7mm Weatherby and watch as I got knocked on my backside.

Yep, I will be right next to him....would not miss a moment like that. Shooting a deer at less than 200 yards is no big deal to me...to a boy...it means a life long memory I want to be part of.

My first was at less than 30yrds in a swamp. I had my pants around my knees as I was taking care of personnel needs with my rifle leaned up against a tree when the doe walked out. Almost 50yrs later I can still smell the wet snow, damp wool and balsoms. I remember that 120lb doe weighing a ton as I dragged it a couple of miles back to camp arriving after dark. I was 10 or 12 but no-one thought about coming to look for me yet. Different times I suppose.

[Combatmedic63]

Change the AR to a 6.5 Grendel with ease. Excellent round for deer, low recoil, good range and stopping power.

[TurnipEaterDown]

If I remember right, the 300 Blackout was a virtual (identical?) copy of JD Jones 300 Whisper. Cut off & opened 221 fireball. Close enough in any event that Jones did a lot of talking about lawsuits for a while... He also used to be emphatic about not using 223 brass for forming brass for his chambers. More work, the body starts too long...
JD used to 'talk' a lot in the HHI mags about using his Whisper on deer. I seem to remember he liked the 125 Nosler BT. Yes, it's a varmint bullet, but only opens that quick when pushed fast. Acts more reasonable at Whisper / BO speeds.
The Whisper was subsonic w/ 220-240 gr 30s, not subsonic at all with a 125 gr.
People used to use 120 gr Hornady HP in 7x57 on same reasoning (built for varmint in 7 mag), and I used a 87 gr Hornady BTHP in a 6mm-250 improved for a 300 yd antelope one time -- Helen Keller could have followed the blood trail (~ 6" wide for ~ 30 yards) and the heart looked like a kitchen collander when I gutted that one (fragments from a missing 1-1.5" piece of rib went through Lots of internals).
The Nosler BT has a heavy base & lower walls that do a reasonable job of supporting the bullet in expansion, so they actually are an intelligent choice for a special application like this.
JD was a 'colorful' fellow in some ways, but he did know a lot about cartridges & guns, and shot a lot of animals.

[nagantguy]

This is so much fun to take out- what rifle bullets and load for a young un to use - I’ve killed small Florida and north and South Carolina deer with 55 grain 223 Nosler ballistic tips.and several MI whitetail on crop damage permits Most bang flop- dverna- I hunt in your neck of the woods quite often and I’d agree most deer in the 100-130 range with the chance at a true northern monster walking through.
I’ve been playing with and having amazing accuracy with the RMR 69 grain HP bullet. Rocky Mountain Rifle, they make and sell this projectile. I ve no connection to them but for less than $90 per 500 and usually in stock even in these crazy times - I’ve only shot varmints and frozen old meat so far but very accurate out of bolt and AR platforms and nasty sound channels- not explosive like a varmint bullet but controlled expansion like a partition. Just my 2 cents - although a case can be made for every option mentioned so far.

[Lloyd Smale]

Adding a rifle is not something I wish to do....especially a .243. I got rid of the following calibers over the last few years, .243 Win. .243 WSSM, 6mm, .25/06, as I had no practical use for them. If a person can shoot, only two calibers are needed (vs wanted) to handle anything in Michigan, a .223 and .308. Investing $800 in a gun, scope, dies and cases that lack long term usefulness does not make sense.

I like Lloyd's recommendation of the Barnes 110 gr bullet at .300 BO velocities. The longest shot the boy will get is 200 yards. Lloyd has harvested more deer than most, and I trust his judgement as it is based on multiple kills. Yes, I trust his judgement even though he is a Yooper...LOL.

I will load some up and see how he does. Recoil with the 110 gr Barnes @ 2400 fps looks about the same as the .243 load you are using (100 gr at 2600 fps) so not gaining anything by spending $800.

If he "gets into it", we will get him a .308 or .30/06 when he gets older as his all-round hunting rifle. Not much on this continent one of those calibers cannot handle.

there lies a big advantage in downloading an 06 or 308 over buying a 223 or some other pop gun. When the kid does grow up hes got a rifle that will handle anything in america.

[dverna]

Lloyd,
The other advantage of downloading a "real" rifle is that it gets the boy into reloading. He will never be dependent on factory ammunition again.

Just as some get excited about harvesting a deer with a homemade cast bullet, a kid will feel the same downing a deer with a cartridge he helped reload. I planned to have him reload a box of the ammunition we were going to use to hunt with after I do the load development work. It enhances the experience and the story he will tell his buddies.

[Good Cheer]

This is January so I'm guessing... you're planning on next season?
What I'd do is develop a heavy boolit load for the .357.
http://i.imgur.com/klEU4ox.jpg (https://imgur.com/klEU4ox)
Here's why.
Novice hunters sometimes get excited. They can sometimes be better off with a bigger hole for tracking. More penetration punch through; more is better. So, that said, I'd go for a flat point gas checked heavy cast soft and hot loaded with lots of H110 or 296 or some such.
Being for next year there's time for him to grow into it. Heck, I'd let him cast the boolits and teach him reloading.

[Grayone]

This is January so I'm guessing... you're planning on next season?
What I'd do is develop a heavy boolit load for the .357.
http://i.imgur.com/klEU4ox.jpg (https://imgur.com/klEU4ox)
Here's why.
Novice hunters sometimes get excited. They can sometimes be better off with a bigger hole for tracking. More penetration punch through; more is better. So, that said, I'd go for a flat point gas checked heavy cast soft and hot loaded with lots of H110 or 296 or some such.
Being for next year there's time for him to grow into it. Heck, I'd let him cast the boolits and teach him reloading.

Now THIS sounds like a good plan due to teaching fundamentals of casting and reloading for the future.

[dverna]

I am reluctant to have the boy cast. He is a step-grandson (of my fiancé) and if he got burned casting, I would never hear the end of it, and it could kill our plan to get him into shooting. The paternal grandmother is a nut case and against even target shooting. She has already attempted to taint the boy.

I know it is blasphemy on this forum, but I prefer hunting with jacketed bullets. It sends the wrong message to the boy to use cast when the old man is using something "better". And IMO the .357 is not much more than a 100 yard deer gun. At the location we will be setting up, the range is typically 120-135 yards, with a max of 200 yards.

At this point, the suggestion Lloyd made makes the most sense to me. He reports the 110 gr Barnes bullet works very well and with a velocity of 2400 fps it will give a flat enough trajectory to have a PBR of 200 yards. I expect it will group in the 1.5-2 MOA area and that will be confidence inspiring. A cast bullet shooting 4 MOA out of lever action (all my .357's are lever actions) is less so.

[popper]

Or use the FTX/GMX. Also suggest as it is a known 'shooting alley' to place flags on the trees to estimate range easier. Good luck in your endever.

[gumbo333]

With the .223 something fairly heavy and soft/ partition, if they can be found. If you have a 30/30 load a 170 FP light. Kids love levers. Or a 257 Rob. / 250 Sav if you have one. So many but what he likes best. A whole year to work it out, lucky you.

[popper]

Don - more info on the kid hunt attended. Had to qualify @ 100 to be allowed, just sitting and front bag. Slightly elevated box stand with guide, parent and shooter. Bamburg ranch hi $ hunt ranch, IIRC normally 8k$/day hunt. I saw MANY trophy sized bucks there! Many still had to track 100 yds after the shot. Kids skinned their animal, with professional guidance. Personally I wouldn't allow a > 100 yd shot from first time hunter no matter what gun. As someone stated earlier, move the stand or plot much closer. You got to get out of the stand, walk down to the shot and then probably track another 100 into the brush to find the animal. You don't want the kid to lose his first animal. My GS hit just a tad low, got the ribs and got to track ~ 80 yds in scrub brush area. I wasn't in the stand that day but the guide had been doing this for years and was a good tracker.

[versa-06]

Well it sounds as though the decision is made , .308 Dia. Barnes 110 gr. & 2400 fps. I would want to see penetration & expansion test @ 200 yds if it were me, but it's not. Good luck on this venture.

[farmbif]

Just saw the 70 grain Speers are still out there. I would buy them and not look back. I have an old article on them as deer bullets in a 22-250.
Tony

22-250 was what I took my first ever deer with, 275lber with 52 grain Remington factory load soft point, took out both lungs. very effective.
problem is finding a factory stock gun with a twist rate that will stabilize a 70 grain bullet in the 22-250

[megasupermagnum]

This is January so I'm guessing... you're planning on next season?
What I'd do is develop a heavy boolit load for the .357.
http://i.imgur.com/klEU4ox.jpg (https://imgur.com/klEU4ox)
Here's why.
Novice hunters sometimes get excited. They can sometimes be better off with a bigger hole for tracking. More penetration punch through; more is better. So, that said, I'd go for a flat point gas checked heavy cast soft and hot loaded with lots of H110 or 296 or some such.
Being for next year there's time for him to grow into it. Heck, I'd let him cast the boolits and teach him reloading.

I love the 357 magnum as much as the next guy, but it is not going to produce a larger hole than 223. You have a point that it will pass through, where it's possible a 223 wont always. Ultimately all three options presented are about equal effectiveness, you will never know the difference on game between them. The big difference is the effective range of each. The 223 is presumably very accurate, well beyond what is needed for the stated 125 yards. While it is possible to get a lever action that accurate, there's no way I'd ever trust a lever action rifle, likely with open sights, to be good enough for a 125 yard shot without a ton of work. It will never be good enough to hand to a kid for that range. If one of them had a scope on them it would be different, a 30-30 and 357 magnum are close enough you won't see a difference on deer.

I already said it, but I really don't understand why you would expect a kid to make a 125 yard shot when it is totally preventable. I don't care how much you have him practice, I have yet to see a 10 year old capable of making a 125 yard shot on a deer, much less his first time. There's a food plot out there. There is no reason at all not to set up 30-50 yards from that food plot.

[Texas by God]

I used the Speer and Sisk 70 gr .224" semi-spitzers for several deer in different 22-250s with the 14" twist. At around 3400 fps they grouped around 1-1/2" @100yds- and killed deer dead.
Dverna, if you download your .308 don't overlook the 125gr Nosler ballistic tip. My 30-30 scoots them along around 2500fps very accurately with not enough recoil to worry about.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[dverna]

MSM,

Promise not to laugh....I cannot easily move the “blind”

The “blind” is the back porch. A Caldwell portable shooting bench is set up and I hang camo netting from the top of the porch roof. The shooting lane also serves as my rifle range....thus the maximum 200 yard possible shot. The shooting lane is planted, and there is a food plot to the right 125 yards from the porch.

It is more like deer murder than deer hunting...lol

The boy will be shooting from a spot he is used to shooting from. For training, I will have him clang 8” steel at 200 yards and he will likely hit it every shot. I will tell him “dead deer” when he nails it. Lots of positive reinforcement. When he gets bored “killing deer” at 200 yards, we will shoot the PCP at 50 yards at paper deer targets to ingrain shot placement.

A deer at 125 yards will look huge.

I am lucky to be able to invest in “doing it right”. Been thinking about getting a Boyd’s At-One stock for the Compass so it will fit him better, and still be useable by me. The stock is adjustable and can be adapted as he gets bigger.

Down the road, it would be neat to gift him that Compass...the gun he downed his first deer with. I would hope it would be one of those guns he never sells.

[megasupermagnum]

That makes more sense. Sitting on a porch, shooting off a benchrest like that definitely changes things.

[Lloyd Smale]

Change the AR to a 6.5 Grendel with ease. Excellent round for deer, low recoil, good range and stopping power.

ive killed a few with my grendel ar. longest shot was just under 300 yards. It killed well. Every bit as well as a 243. A little ruger american in that caliber would make a nice low recoil deer rifle for a kid. Only downside is finding brass or ammo.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd,
The other advantage of downloading a "real" rifle is that it gets the boy into reloading. He will never be dependent on factory ammunition again.

Just as some get excited about harvesting a deer with a homemade cast bullet, a kid will feel the same downing a deer with a cartridge he helped reload. I planned to have him reload a box of the ammunition we were going to use to hunt with after I do the load development work. It enhances the experience and the story he will tell his buddies.

good point don. We need young people to keep reloading alive or the politicians will eventually ban it.

[jonp]

ive killed a few with my grendel ar. longest shot was just under 300 yards. It killed well. Every bit as well as a 243. A little ruger american in that caliber would make a nice low recoil deer rifle for a kid. Only downside is finding brass or ammo.

What bullet did you use lloyd?