Where to find .38 wadcutter brass?

[Jtarm]

Any suggestions on where to find some, or what might make a good substitute?

I have a couple hundred Federal GMM cases. Also a couple hundred Sellier & Bellot cases from some wadcutter ammo I found on sale.

I don’t reload the S&B brass because the primer pockets are uber-tight.

Is any of the Euro wadcutter ammo any good, like PPU?

[Winger Ed.]

I load a bunch of .38DEWC in whatever (mix) cases I have.
I'd been doing it for about 25 years before I knew there was such a thing as specific wadcutter brass.

If it makes a difference, I ain't smart enough or a good enough shot to tell.

[Thumbcocker]

I have heard that Starline .38 special brass is made like wadcutter brass.

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[NSB]

After 50+ years of loading and now I find out there’s “wadcutter brass”. I just used what I had on hand. Seemed to work just fine.

[cwtebay]

10:24am on New Year's Day and I already learned something! Didn't know such an animal existed - it's gonna be a great year!

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[johnsonian09]

To quote some facebookish stuff
"I was today years old when" I found out there was wadcutter specific brass

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[cwtebay]

Dang it, now I'm going to have to have another cup of coffee while I do a little Google Fu so I can learn about this.

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[DCB]

I have been loading 38/357 forever and just found out a while ago there was such a thing.
I have not seen a difference in shooting if there is one.
Up until everything shut down I would shoot up to 10k rounds of 38 per year most of which were WC.

[Thumbcocker]

Outpost 75 knows about this and could explain better than I. As I understand it wadcutter brass is thinner or has a different taper than regular brass to keep from deforming the soft lead wadcutters. If you search i am pretty sure Outpost has posted a detailed explanation of the difference and how to load wadcutters with accuracy results. Again he knows much more than I do.

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[metricmonkeywrench]

See this discussion.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?400746-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brass

[tazman]

Dang it, now I'm going to have to have another cup of coffee while I do a little Google Fu so I can learn about this.

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There is some information about wadcutter brass in a sticky at the top of the page. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000-Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27

Starline brass is supposed to be made like original factory wadcutter brass.

I ran some tests to see how much difference it made. I found that it depends on which particular wadcutter you are using and how deeply you seat it in the case. For hollow based wadcutters, the wadcutter brass is bordering on absolutely necessary. The extra length of the boolit combined with a flush with the case mouth seating, really requires wadcutter brass for best results.

Solid wadcutters don't seat quite so deeply into the case, even when seated flush. If the nose of a solid wadcutter is protruding from the case, it probably doesn't need wadcutter brass. In the case of the Lyman(or NOE) 358432, there is no need at all for wadcutter brass since the boolit doesn't go into the case far enough to matter.
The best thing you can do is get a batch of identical brass and load them using best practices. This will make more difference to accuracy than mixed brass.
I use my wadcutter brass for flush seated wadcutters because it does make a difference. All my wadcutter brass wears the same head stamp.
Don't load heavy charges and don't crimp excessively and the brass should last a long time.

[Nueces]

This used to be better known. In the 60s - 70s, when I started reloading, magazine articles would caution against using wadcutter brass for heavy 38 loads. We were advised to avoid those cases that featured cannelures. So, now, that's how you can identify wadcutter brass, though, with the vastly more numerous makers now on tap, I can't say it is still a hard and fast rule.

Wadcutter brass tapers internally more steeply than does regular brass, resulting in a longer straight internal neck, to accommodate the long, deep seated wadcutters.

[Bmi48219]

GFL-Fiocchi make dedicated, identified 38 WC brass but I don’t know if they are dimensioned for DE or HB.
Winchester, R-P & Federal WC brass either has a single cannelure just at the midpoint of case for DEWC (nickel case in pic). Some Federal & R-P brass has a cannelure 1/3rd of way down from case mouth but that isn’t WC brass.
or a pair of cannelures for HBWC
.293901

[Jtarm]

When I was a youngster in the 80s, I bought an ammo can of almost 1,000 rounds of new WW WC ammo in nickel cases at a swap meet.

Not knowing what I had, I ditched them after a couple loadings because no matter how tight the crimp, it wouldn’t get a decent grip on the SWCs I was using.

[la5676]

One won't have much of an issue loading WCs into regular brass, but I discovered the difference when seating many jacketed bullets and cast too in a WC case. There is little to no seating resistance, and you can often push the bullet in the case when setting them in the case mouth while in loading blocks. If one didn't crimp the end, as is standard in these cases, they would fall out. And yes, these were cases sized correctly.

Edit to add: I see jtarm has this issue too.

[Jtarm]

GFL-Fiocchi make dedicated, identified 38 WC brass but I don’t know if they are dimensioned for DE or HB.
Winchester, R-P & Federal WC brass either has a single cannelure just at the midpoint of case for DEWC (nickel case in pic). Some Federal & R-P brass has a cannelure 1/3rd of way down from case mouth but that isn’t WC brass.
or a pair of cannelures for HBWC
.293901

Ah, thanks, I’ll check out the Fiocchi. I think I saw some available. Not cheap, of course.

[cwtebay]

There is some information about wadcutter brass in a sticky at the top of the page. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000-Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27

Starline brass is supposed to be made like original factory wadcutter brass.

I ran some tests to see how much difference it made. I found that it depends on which particular wadcutter you are using and how deeply you seat it in the case. For hollow based wadcutters, the wadcutter brass is bordering on absolutely necessary. The extra length of the boolit combined with a flush with the case mouth seating, really requires wadcutter brass for best results.

Solid wadcutters don't seat quite so deeply into the case, even when seated flush. If the nose of a solid wadcutter is protruding from the case, it probably doesn't need wadcutter brass. In the case of the Lyman(or NOE) 358432, there is no need at all for wadcutter brass since the boolit doesn't go into the case far enough to matter.
The best thing you can do is get a batch of identical brass and load them using best practices. This will make more difference to accuracy than mixed brass.
I use my wadcutter brass for flush seated wadcutters because it does make a difference. All my wadcutter brass wears the same head stamp.
Don't load heavy charges and don't crimp excessively and the brass should last a long time.Interesting - thank you!

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[NSB]

I had two Bill Davis custom built PPC guns and shot countless thousands of wadcutters out of them. Both guns would shoot five shots into a pretty small ragged hole at 25 yards when shot off the bench. Wished I’d have known about wadcutter brass. Might have shot better groups.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've gotten used WC brass from members here...and at Gunshows. I prefer to use it, especially when seating WC's all the way into the case. But honestly, I've heard that it only matters, when it matters. I do recall seeing an issue, before I knew of WC brass, when seating the Lee TL WC all the way into some mil surp 38 spl brass...I'd get a bulge in the side of the case. I suppose Mil Surp brass has walls that progressively got thicker?

[Char-Gar]

I have heard that Starline .38 special brass is made like wadcutter brass.

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This is true both the regular and +P brass have the proper internal taper. The only difference between the regular and +P is the headstamp.

[NSB]

I've gotten used WC brass from members here...and at Gunshows. I prefer to use it, especially when seating WC's all the way into the case. But honestly, I've heard that it only matters, when it matters. I do recall seeing an issue, before I knew of WC brass, when seating the Lee TL WC all the way into some mil surp 38 spl brass...I'd get a bulge in the side of the case. I suppose Mil Surp brass has walls that progressively got thicker?
I have two different carbide dies here that will produce two different sized cases when used. One is a Lyman and the other is a Hornady (Custom Grade Die). I loaded up a dozen of each last year to see if it made any difference in accuracy. One showed a “bulge” in the case when the bullet was seated and one did not. It made no difference at all on paper. Darn, there went a really good excuse. I think wadcutter brass probably got started back when SW model 52’s were all the rage in bullseye. They were fully seated bullets in order to be used in the model 52’s. I don’t think there’s enough difference to change performance. I still have a bunch of brass with the canalure in the middle and it shoots and loads like everything else. There may actually be a difference but I can’t find it in performance. But maybe it’s just me?

[zarrinvz24]

The military .38 special brass is heavier and thicker than normal brass. I’ve observed at least 2 variations of military brass as well. So in my mind there are at least 4 general classes of .38Spl brass: 1. Wadcutter, which has 2 cannelures. 2. Standard civvie brass, 0-1 cannelure. 3. Standard military brass, which also has 1-2 cannelures. It begins internal taper sooner and is heavier than the standard civvie brass. 4. What I call the super heavy’s, WCC produced in ‘91 and earlier. This brass is the heaviest and stoutest I’ve ever seen. I reserve it for use in +P and 38/44 loadings.

I wouldn’t avoid any type of .38 brass, just need to know about it, each tool has a use for a certain application.

[MT Gianni]

Winchester and Remington have double cannelure lines, Federal has a single cannelure line about 1/4 of the way down.

I came into some and sold 16 K a few years back. I like it but as was said it only matters when the rest of the duties are done. It doesn't fix all the problems, it just is one piece of the puzzle.

You won't find it in commercial sales, few PD shoot PPC wadcutter 38 loads. Just check older shooters posts.

[Mk42gunner]

I went through this issue last year when I was loading a lot of .38 Special wadcutters. After a lot of measuring with a case micrometer, Starline for the win. Very consistent wall thickness (I want to say 0.010") to deeper than my boolits were long.

Twenty plus years ago Starline made Plus+, regular and wadcutter brass for the .38 Special. Then they changed and the regular brass is the right size for WC, so they quit marketing it. Just buy plain .38 Special brass from them (if it is in stock) and it will work.

Robert

[fivegunner]

Great thread I have something to add, I use Dillon 550 `s I too went down the road of reloading the 38 Spl Wadcutter. Fast forwarding, I bought a new powder die /expander for 38WC , It works great in plain 38 brass, it expands the inside of 38 Spl brass so that your wadcutter boolit doesn't get swaged down almost a slip fit. any way the name of company that makes this and alot other helpful reloading tools is called ( Unique tek.com ) do a search on the web to find them. I like shooting 38wc`s:smile:

[memtb]

After 50+ years of loading and now I find out there’s “wadcutter brass”. I just used what I had on hand. Seemed to work just fine.

Same here! Was loading 148 grain flat base wadcutters from a Hensley & Gibbs mold when I was 19 (1972) .....never knew I wuz do’n it wrong! They seemed to work! memtb

[alamogunr]

I haven't been loading for 50 years but have loaded a lot of .38 Spec w/wadcutters from a H&G 50 mold. If you look at any box of my reloads you will see both brass and nickel casings with various headstamps. I don't get to shoot enough to be good enough to do more than enjoy the day. I shoot the same loads out of a S&W 65 and a S&W Hwy Patrolman. Both of these guns are way over built for that use but I like them. I've got other .38's but hardly ever get them out.

All sorts of things have been pointed out in this thread that I didn't even know could be a problem

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have two different carbide dies here that will produce two different sized cases when used. One is a Lyman and the other is a Hornady (Custom Grade Die). I loaded up a dozen of each last year to see if it made any difference in accuracy. One showed a “bulge” in the case when the bullet was seated and one did not. It made no difference at all on paper. Darn, there went a really good excuse. I think wadcutter brass probably got started back when SW model 52’s were all the rage in bullseye. They were fully seated bullets in order to be used in the model 52’s. I don’t think there’s enough difference to change performance. I still have a bunch of brass with the canalure in the middle and it shoots and loads like everything else. There may actually be a difference but I can’t find it in performance. But maybe it’s just me?

it only matters, when it matters.

[Wild Bill 7]

I also didn’t know there was a difference in the brass until I read it on here. Everything was fine before, but now I have separated the brass and only load wadcutters in the special brass. Even old dogs can learn new stuff also. I love this site for all the knowledge people share.

[tazman]

The tests I ran to see if wadcutter brass really made a difference were conducted with three different revolvers. A S&W model 14, a S&W model 15, and a S&W model 686. All testing was fired from a rest using my admittedly poor eyesight, although my eyes were not always as poor as they are now.
I compared group sizes after 12 shots per group. I repeated the groups over the course of a week when I was on vacation and had the time to shoot each day. Shooting was done at 20 yards as that was the distance I had available at the time.
I won't post any particular group sizes because none of my groups are particularly impressive. I was just trying to see if the brass made a difference.
I was using a box of factory cast boolits and some of my own made using a Lyman 358091 mold. The factory cast were HiTech coated while mine were lubed with White Label NRA 50-50 and sized to .358. All were loaded flush with the case mouth. The powder charge was 2.8 grains of Bullseye.
The brass was once fired Remington wadcutter brass and a "control group" of mixed brass.
I was being as careful as I could to produce "match" loads.

All three of the revolvers liked this load. All shot consistently over the several days of shooting.
The factory cast shot about the same as my own cast did. No real measurable difference. The difference between types of brass was significant. The wadcutter brass groups were approximately 15 percent smaller in every instance, indicating more consistency in the loads.

I later acquired some hollow based wadcutters and re-shot the tests. The results were closer to 25 percent smaller groups with the wadcutter brass.

The difference between the hollow based wadcutters and the solid wadcutters fired in the wadcutter brass was minimal and too small for me to be certain of any real difference. Possibly because I am not a good enough shot to tell.
The difference between the hollow based wadcutters and the solid wadcutters in the mixed brass was noticeable with the solid wadcutters doing better by about 10 percent. I have to attribute this to deformation of the boolit base by the brass.
If I had taken the time to sort my mixed brass by headstamp, I may not have seen as large a difference but I didn't think to do that at the time.

After all the testing was completed, I fired a lot of rounds standing with a two hand hold at the same distance to see how it all worked out in practice.
I found that, for me, any difference was small enough that my skill level did not allow me to take advantage of the difference in accuracy provided by the match ammunition. I still load some of the match loads for use in testing the accuracy of my revolvers because I know what this ammunition is capable of. I mostly load mixed brass and solid wadcutters for general use and practice since I get the same group sizes.

I did find one loading technique that worked better but was a real pain in the neck because of the way it went into the cylinder.
I loaded some solid wadcutters well out of the chamber to the place where the front drive band would enter the chamber throat. This gave perfect alignment with the throat and barrel since the boolits were sized to a tight slip fit with the throats. Accuracy this way was better than anything else I tried. The problem was, each bullet had to be individually pushed into the chamber due to the slight press fit at the throat. There was no possibility of a quick reload.
For slow fire this was fine or with any shooting that doesn't require fast reload capability. I found it to be too much effort for the gains since I don't shoot enough target competition to matter.
The Lyman 358432 and the NOE copy of this boolit accomplish very nearly the same thing without the feeding issues while allowing the same full power powder charges used by SWC boolit designs.

I suppose I should re-shoot the tests since I now have access to longer distances but my eyesight has deteriorated to the place that I am not certain I could provide consistent results without a Ransom rest.

[Forrest r]

Bought 2000 pieces of 1x ww wc brass on this website a couple years ago. No one wanted it because it was nickel plated even though it was selling at an extremely low price. I bought the wc brass to shoot my cast hbwc's (mihec 148gr hbwc).
Left to right:
h&g # 41 110gr wc
h&g #50 148gr bb wc
Mihec 148gr hbwc
Lyman 148gr hbwc 358395
https://i.imgur.com/N3kBAVn.jpg

The wc cases are the cat's meow when loading/shooting my long bodied home swaged jacketed bullets made out of 9mm cases.
https://i.imgur.com/pn3N1Ro.jpg?1

You really don't need wc brass to shoot cast wc's. Couldn't even begin to count how many 1000's of the h&g #50 bb wc's I shot over the years using those thick WW military brass in post #23. Used to buy 30cal ammo cans full of that ww 38spl brass at camp perry for $3 a can (ammo can included).

Was cast wc's in standard 38spl brass as good as swaged hbwc's in wc brass???

No, but were talking +/- 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 50yds using a ranson rest and tuned k-frames.

[Pine Baron]

This is a great thread, with two takeaways for me:
1. Now I've got to re-look at all my .38 brass and mic 'em for WC.
2. Add a new project to swage using 9mm cases.

Just what I needed. More projects!!

[Bird]

Forrest r, I have sent you a PM.

[Char-Gar]

Was cast wc's in standard 38spl brass as good as swaged hbwc's in wc brass???

No, but were talking +/- 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 50yds using a ranson rest and tuned k-frames.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

A half inch difference at 50 yards is a huge difference for the guy trying to bring home the gold. If the bullets cuts the line you get the higher score. You guys don't need the highest possible level of accuracy, you don't think there is a significant difference, but there is.

A fellow looking for the highest possible level of accuracy in the 38 Special for Bullseye shooting, will use WC brass for WC bullets, trim his cases to a uniform length and size in a die that sizes the cases the least and take extreme care with the crimp if any is used.

If a fellow is not shooting competition Bullseye, he can get by cutting allot of corners and never know the difference.

[tazman]

^^^^^^^^ Very true

[Low Budget Shooter]

In my experiments, it seemed to me that solid wadcutters loaded to the crimp groove do not require wadcutter brass for best accuracy, but hollow-base wadcutters need wadcutter brass for best accuracy.

[Forrest r]

Was cast wc's in standard 38spl brass as good as swaged hbwc's in wc brass???

No, but were talking +/- 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 50yds using a ranson rest and tuned k-frames.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

A half inch difference at 50 yards is a huge difference for the guy trying to bring home the gold. If the bullets cuts the line you get the higher score. You guys don't need the highest possible level of accuracy, you don't think there is a significant difference, but there is.

A fellow looking for the highest possible level of accuracy in the 38 Special for Bullseye shooting, will use WC brass for WC bullets, trim his cases to a uniform length and size in a die that sizes the cases the least and take extreme care with the crimp if any is used.

If a fellow is not shooting competition Bullseye, he can get by cutting allot of corners and never know the difference.

Confucius say:
Shooters who use reloads when "trying to bring home the gold" usually bring home the aluminum in the form of beverage cans consumed at the show.:groner:

[alamogunr]

Was cast wc's in standard 38spl brass as good as swaged hbwc's in wc brass???

No, but were talking +/- 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 50yds using a ranson rest and tuned k-frames.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

A half inch difference at 50 yards is a huge difference for the guy trying to bring home the gold. If the bullets cuts the line you get the higher score. You guys don't need the highest possible level of accuracy, you don't think there is a significant difference, but there is.

A fellow looking for the highest possible level of accuracy in the 38 Special for Bullseye shooting, will use WC brass for WC bullets, trim his cases to a uniform length and size in a die that sizes the cases the least and take extreme care with the crimp if any is used.

If a fellow is not shooting competition Bullseye, he can get by cutting allot of corners and never know the difference.

I resemble that statement. If you look in a box of my reloads, you will see both plain brass, nickel plate and
various headstamps.

[ABJ]

Was cast wc's in standard 38spl brass as good as swaged hbwc's in wc brass???

No, but were talking +/- 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 50yds using a ranson rest and tuned k-frames.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

A half inch difference at 50 yards is a huge difference for the guy trying to bring home the gold. If the bullets cuts the line you get the higher score. You guys don't need the highest possible level of accuracy, you don't think there is a significant difference, but there is.

A fellow looking for the highest possible level of accuracy in the 38 Special for Bullseye shooting, will use WC brass for WC bullets, trim his cases to a uniform length and size in a die that sizes the cases the least and take extreme care with the crimp if any is used.

If a fellow is not shooting competition Bullseye, he can get by cutting allot of corners and never know the difference.

Char Gar is stating the whole truth. Being a "Bullseye" shooter we have shot and tested tens of thousands of rounds and WC brass does make a difference. Can the average shooter see the difference on target? maybe but probably not. Having said that, loading WC to the crimp grove (not flush) in same headstamp cases (WC or regular) will in most cases yield smaller groups than other style boolits. I always start new revolver shooters out with light loaded WC's. I don't own a single revolver that the WC in either type case won't out shoot any other boolit out to 25 yds.
Just a side note here, the Lee 105 swc has replaced my plinking loads with WC's. Almost as accurate, saving lead, and easier to load.
Tony

[Soundguy]

Any suggestions on where to find some, or what might make a good substitute?

I have a couple hundred Federal GMM cases. Also a couple hundred Sellier & Bellot cases from some wadcutter ammo I found on sale.

I don’t reload the S&B brass because the primer pockets are uber-tight.

Is any of the Euro wadcutter ammo any good, like PPU?

I reload wadcutters in any brass I have. If you have brass with tight pockets swage or true cut them.. problem solved.

[tazman]

Any suggestions on where to find some, or what might make a good substitute?


I purchased a large lot from a member on this site. All the same headstamp(which is the best way to go). Post a "want to buy" in the Swapping and Selling section.
I also found many of this same headstamp in range pickup lots I have purchased over the years. As I find them, I segregate them.
If you are considering purchasing Starline brass, buy enough that you can load it for a very long time. That way you have a supply that you know precisely what it's history is.