Loading for a Zoli 1863 replica rifle

[Rifledude]

Hello there, I am new to the board and am looking for some counseling and "schoolhousing" on loading for for the new to me Zoli 58 caliber rifle. Patch and ball or mini ball, and which one and why. I will appreciate any info you can pass on to me. Not new to BP, but all my time has been w/ BPCR.
Thanks in advance

[smithnframe]

What is the twist rate of the barrel?

[dave951]

Ok here's the scoop

For accurate shooting you must KNOW the size of your barrel, not what's stamped, not what the internet says, not what your reenactor neighbor said. Then use a minie sized to .001 under the bore size made from pure lead. Use real black powder 2f or 3f. You'll find that in most cases 3f fouls less. Use only a natural based lube. I use 50/50 beeswax/lard. Use quality caps. RWS and Schuetzen are great. CCI reenactor caps are suitable only for blanks. As for twist rate, the Zoli is a known good shooting rifle and has a slow twist as do most minie ball muskets. It "can" shoot a round ball but I've found the minie performs better.

You'll hear lots of opinions on the minie ball rifled musket, but they are a completely different critter from your average patch round ball gun. Follow what I've posted and get the minie system balanced as Cpt. Minie designed it and you can shoot till you run out of ammo, shoulder or daylight, whichever comes first and all with accuracy.

But hey, what do I know, it's not like I shoot competition with these and am a certified Instructor or anything-
293886

293887

[dave951]

Hello there, I am new to the board and am looking for some counseling and "schoolhousing" on loading for for the new to me Zoli 58 caliber rifle. Patch and ball or mini ball, and which one and why. I will appreciate any info you can pass on to me. Not new to BP, but all my time has been w/ BPCR.
Thanks in advance

Also, depending on where you live, there is a group call the North South Skirmish Association. We are a group of competition shooters who shoot Civil War era arms and the Zoli is a well regarded rifle. We shoot minies in rifled muskets and only use round ball in the smoothbore matches. We also compete with artillery in live fire. No reenacting, no blanks. It's all live ammunition shot for score in competition. The N-SSA is primarily in the eastern US and we have a permanent range in Winchester, VA where we hold our Nationals twice a year and nearly monthly for the rest of the year. Each region also hold matches in their respective areas. If you want to deep dive on how to shoot a minie gun, get to know the N-SSA or better yet, take a hit off the black powder crack pipe and join the N-SSA and find out just how addictive these guns are. We are organized as "teams" or "units". Competition is shot as a team against other teams. Targets are frangible, break it, it counts, miss it, it counts against you and all the while the clock is running. You have to balance speed and accuracy and having a gun that won't shoot well is a handicap. There are some other N-SSA members on this board and I'm sure they'll chime in. Carbine is with a Federal team and I'm with a Southern team and we're still friends. When the horn sounds though, we'll both do our dead level best with a musket and may the best team win. It's great fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP5Ktfg86kE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp1qho8DLuw

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Lots of fun sorting a load. Mine is a PARKER HALE and like minnies rather than ball.

https://i.imgur.com/RH7Jdnph.jpg

[carbine]

I agree with Dave. Been Skirmishing for 40 years in N-SSA. Minie's are sooo much easier than Patched round ball. One hole groups from the bench are the norm today

[toot]

I haven't seen ASH CAN'S I beleave that is what the flat nosed 58's are called? I couldn't get them to group but they punch holes as a wadcutter would.

[Nobade]

My Parker Hale won't shoot patched balls worth a darn but my '63 by Miroku will. Since buying minies and getting them sized and such is kind of a big undertaking for a newbie, I'm going to suggest buying a box of Hornady .570" balls, getting some pre cut ticking patches or some fabric, loading up about 60 gr. FFg powder and giving it a try. I know it's not ideal but for someone with no experience with rifled muskets it will allow him to shoot it and get an idea of what it feels like. The fine tuning can come later.

[Hellgate]

I use mine for hunting with heavy loads. I shoot the 575213 OS (Old Style) minie over 90grs FFFg sighted in 5" high at 50 yards which puts it right on at 100yds. It will shoot lengthwise through a deer and hardly ruin any meat. The N/SSA target loads are the thinner skirted minies and 30-45 grs powder. The round balls or .560-.570 are easier to cast and fun to plink or hunt with.

[rmark]

Pin gauges can be used to check bore size, for example .575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580 as some reproduction musket barrels run large. Travers Tool sells them online.

Northeast Trade Co. sells push thru sizing dies in musket sizes, both press mounted and ones you clamp into a vice.

I think Zoli Zouaves have 1-72 twists.

[Rifledude]

Thanks to all who took the time to respond to a newbie's question. I slugged the barrel today and got .588" as the best measurement I could. Twist rate is next. Got some Sheutzen musket caps on order, and have 2F to stoke it with. To rmark: this looks like an 1863........ what would make it a Zouave? Again thanks! Your input is appreciated.

[john.k]

Youll likely find the twist is 1/72........in the 1850s ,anything rifled was 1 in six feet ,including cannons......the rate turned out too slow for rifles,but too quick for cannons............incidentally,Ive found the best accuracy from the Parker Hale /Lyman bullet....which is somewhat heavy ,and 60 -70 grains of either 2f or 3f........You will also find the Zouave design needs a small brass plate guard for the nipple flash to stop the stock wood getting burned away.

[indian joe]

Thanks to all who took the time to respond to a newbie's question. I slugged the barrel today and got .588" as the best measurement I could. Twist rate is next. Got some Sheutzen musket caps on order, and have 2F to stoke it with. To rmark: this looks like an 1863........ what would make it a Zouave? Again thanks! Your input is appreciated.

I have a Zoli mississippi rifle - slow twist - couldnt get it to shoot minies worth a damn - patched round ball was easy from the first shot.
have heard all the blarney about one hole groups with minies from these 70+ twist barrels - have seen lots of em fail to deliver - have yet to see one shoot decent at 100yards with a range of minies - we traded our long Enfield three band for a 48 twist two bander and ended the problem - that gun will shoot well with about any old minie you feed it .

[Rifledude]

Dave 951,
I am no stranger to competition, I shot service rifle form '80-'92 for the Nat Guard and All Guard '84-'92 at the nation level. Metallic Silhouettes before that for several years. Now it's just for the fun and relaxation. I am in MT and winter has set in so it's time for development and tweaking guns and loads in the shop rather than outdoors in the cold. My Son is in SC, Charleston area, and I keep trying to get him interested in some kind of shooting.

[john.k]

I used to reliably get 4" @100yds with Minies,and that is what others have said too.........very important is the bullet must be soft ......nearly pure lead......some of the online cast minies are hard ,and useless for anything but melting down............Ill diverge from general opinion here ,and say I always used a lube made of parafin wax and 140 diff oil......heavy dip coat all over the bullet ,enough oil to show wet when the wax cracks......Never any fouling ,just runny black goo......Definitely need boiling water to shift the oily goo tho.

[Ithaca Gunner]

It's been decades since I've shot a ''Zoli-Zooie'' mine was a Lyman branded one, Navy Arms, and Dixie Gun Works also put their names on them. As I recall they shot well with a Lyman 575213 NS bullet and as others have said, sized .001'' smaller than land diameter. I wouldn't concern myself much with the twist rate, I have an original Enfield P58 Naval rifle with a 1:48 twist, also a Parker Hale 1861 Musketoon with the same, a ''custom'' built 1862 Fayetteville CSA rifle with 1:72, an original Windsor Enfiled with a Hoyt reline 1:60, and an original relined U.S. 1863 riflemusket with a 1:48 Hoyt liner, some 5 groove progressive depth rifling, some 3 groove progressive depth. They all shoot their own specific bullet/powder combinations well.

The Zoli-Zooies are getting old, most are up there in age and some well used. During your winter down time you may want to replace some of the lock internals, main spring and sear spring in particular, also new SS sure fire nipple. You can get these from Lodgewood Mfg. 262-473-5444 S&S 718-497-1100 Regimental Quartermaster 717-338-1850. It may also prove beneficial to add a dab of bedding compound at the breech plug and under the breech end of the barrel as the fit on some of these left something to be desired. They were good guns, they were economical and could benefit from some upgrades, I've seen a few with weak springs in later years due to age and use. Zoli springs are kinda soft compared with originals which have stood the test of time.

[rmark]

The Remington 1863 2 band rifle is referred to as the Zouave. The replicas look good on the outside but barrel twists and rifling vary considerably from the originals - Euroarms used 1-66 twists, Armisport 1-56, making the historic load information not very useful. Look for soft lead minie that just slips into the bore or about .001 under bore size.

As an example I have a Euroarms 2 band Enfield 1-66 twist constant depth rifling that I size a Rapine trashcan style minie to .581 which just slips into the bore, using 35 grains Goex 3f which will shoot several shots touching at 50 yards. But historically this model of gun had 1-48 twist decreasing depth rifling.

[Ithaca Gunner]

The original ''Remington Contract Rifle'', (as it was officially known) called for a, ''Harper's Ferry'' pattern rifle with sword type bayonet to be submitted for approval and a contract of 10,000 rifles. The rifle Remington made had a 33'' .58 heavy barrel with 7 groove rifling 1:60 twist being of progressive depth type. Specifications for the rifle and correspondence can be found in Claud E. Fuller's book, ''The Rifled Musket'' pages, 152-153. The rifles were thought to be of exceptionally high quality, yet few if any were issued and remained in Gov't stores until sold off as surplus.

None of the Italian makers have produced anything close to what the original was as to number of grooves, twist, or depth, but they all seem to shoot relatively well, out to 100yds. at least.

[Hellgate]

Rifledude,
I doubt your bore is .588. The Zouave by Antonio Zoli IIRC is a 3 rifling bore and can be tricky to slug (something like subtract half the land depth).

[indian joe]

It's been decades since I've shot a ''Zoli-Zooie'' mine was a Lyman branded one, Navy Arms, and Dixie Gun Works also put their names on them. As I recall they shot well with a Lyman 575213 NS bullet and as others have said, sized .001'' smaller than land diameter. I wouldn't concern myself much with the twist rate, I have an original Enfield P58 Naval rifle with a 1:48 twist, also a Parker Hale 1861 Musketoon with the same, a ''custom'' built 1862 Fayetteville CSA rifle with 1:72, an original Windsor Enfiled with a Hoyt reline 1:60, and an original relined U.S. 1863 riflemusket with a 1:48 Hoyt liner, some 5 groove progressive depth rifling, some 3 groove progressive depth. They all shoot their own specific bullet/powder combinations well.

The Zoli-Zooies are getting old, most are up there in age and some well used. During your winter down time you may want to replace some of the lock internals, main spring and sear spring in particular, also new SS sure fire nipple. You can get these from Lodgewood Mfg. 262-473-5444 S&S 718-497-1100 Regimental Quartermaster 717-338-1850. It may also prove beneficial to add a dab of bedding compound at the breech plug and under the breech end of the barrel as the fit on some of these left something to be desired. They were good guns, they were economical and could benefit from some upgrades, I've seen a few with weak springs in later years due to age and use. Zoli springs are kinda soft compared with originals which have stood the test of time.

ok the 48 twist barrels are easy ----what is your "specific boolit powder combination" for the 72 twist barrel - thats where the problems arise. My zoli will do 4 inches at 100yards with patched ball - the barrel is near mint condition.
thanks

[Ithaca Gunner]

ok the 48 twist barrels are easy ----what is your "specific boolit powder combination" for the 72 twist barrel - thats where the problems arise. My zoli will do 4 inches at 100yards with patched ball - the barrel is near mint condition.
thanks

I've one rifle with a 1:72 twist, (not a Zoli-Zooie) a hand made 1862 CSA Fayetteville Rifle.


It likes a Lyman 575213OS sized to .579'' over 55gr. FFFg. The heavier the skirt, the more powder it takes to fill it out and shoot accurately. Also, the barrel on my Fayetteville is fully glass bedded. Most of these rifles shoot a lot better with at least the breech plug and about 4'' of barrel at the breech glass bedded. Better springs and a trigger job also help as well as a SS or beryllium sure fire nipple. Even Parker Hale re-pops benefit from a dab or two of bedding compound around the breech area. If the stock has even a slight ridge or hump down the center barrel channel, scrape it out and smooth it round, some companies use a ball cutter and several passes along each side to cut the channel in that can leave a slight ridge down the center that needs to go to get the most out of the barrel's potential accuracy, (not all have this ridge, some do).

Casting Burton bullets, (Minnie's) can take a bit more care than solid base bullets, if the base plug temp. isn't right, (too hot) voids can form in the nose of the skirt. I like the Lyman 575213OS because it has a heavier skirt and deeper grooves for lube. The 575213NS with the thin skirt can be damaged easier and holds less lube. My lube is plain Crisco and bee's wax, sometimes with a little olive oil to thin it in winter months. Just melt in a pie pan, let harden and rub your index finger 3-5 light circles on top when cool. If your finger is slippery and the lube has a circle on it, the lube is right. No circle and no slippery finger, add more Crisco or olive oil until it's right. Not scientific, but it works. I use a set of push through dies in a vice, melt lube in the pie pan, dip the skirt in quickly, (just a quick dip is all you need to coat the skirt) set aside until you have all lubed you need and run them through the sizer. Choosing a load I usually start at 40gr. FFFg and work up using five shot groups by five grains, (measured-brass adjustable measure) at a time to 70gr. max. at 50yds. I found I rarely have to go beyond 55gr. FFFg. Once I find happiness, I shoot ten at 50yds. and ten at 100yds. to confirm. The Fayetteville and the Windsor P-53 (1:60) both shoot Five in one ragged hole at 100yds from a bench. Both use 55gr. FFFg. and a Lyman 575213OS bullet. The Windsor is an original with a Hoyt liner and has a little glass bedding behind the breech plug and under the barrel breech. I'd glass bed any re-pop in a heart beat! (remember to put a piece of foil or tape over the rammer spoon channel if applicable) Goex powder and RWS caps used since 1970-something.

I hope all this helps.

[brewer12345]

I shot my Zoli Zouave last year with a .570 ball and a .015 grease patch. Very good accuracy and 6" high at 50 yards, which puts it about dead on at 100 yards. 70 to 75 grains of 1.5F Olde Eynesford real black. I shot a doe at 70 yards with this combination and it was a wrecker. The doe made it all of 25 yards and there was about enough of the heart left to frame the hole.

I plan on fooling with minies this summer.

[indian joe]

I've one rifle with a 1:72 twist, (not a Zoli-Zooie) a hand made 1862 CSA Fayetteville Rifle.


It likes a Lyman 575213OS sized to .579'' over 55gr. FFFg. The heavier the skirt, the more powder it takes to fill it out and shoot accurately. Also, the barrel on my Fayetteville is fully glass bedded. Most of these rifles shoot a lot better with at least the breech plug and about 4'' of barrel at the breech glass bedded. Better springs and a trigger job also help as well as a SS or beryllium sure fire nipple. Even Parker Hale re-pops benefit from a dab or two of bedding compound around the breech area. If the stock has even a slight ridge or hump down the center barrel channel, scrape it out and smooth it round, some companies use a ball cutter and several passes along each side to cut the channel in that can leave a slight ridge down the center that needs to go to get the most out of the barrel's potential accuracy, (not all have this ridge, some do).

Casting Burton bullets, (Minnie's) can take a bit more care than solid base bullets, if the base plug temp. isn't right, (too hot) voids can form in the nose of the skirt. I like the Lyman 575213OS because it has a heavier skirt and deeper grooves for lube. The 575213NS with the thin skirt can be damaged easier and holds less lube. My lube is plain Crisco and bee's wax, sometimes with a little olive oil to thin it in winter months. Just melt in a pie pan, let harden and rub your index finger 3-5 light circles on top when cool. If your finger is slippery and the lube has a circle on it, the lube is right. No circle and no slippery finger, add more Crisco or olive oil until it's right. Not scientific, but it works. I use a set of push through dies in a vice, melt lube in the pie pan, dip the skirt in quickly, (just a quick dip is all you need to coat the skirt) set aside until you have all lubed you need and run them through the sizer. Choosing a load I usually start at 40gr. FFFg and work up using five shot groups by five grains, (measured-brass adjustable measure) at a time to 70gr. max. at 50yds. I found I rarely have to go beyond 55gr. FFFg. Once I find happiness, I shoot ten at 50yds. and ten at 100yds. to confirm. The Fayetteville and the Windsor P-53 (1:60) both shoot Five in one ragged hole at 100yds from a bench. Both use 55gr. FFFg. and a Lyman 575213OS bullet. The Windsor is an original with a Hoyt liner and has a little glass bedding behind the breech plug and under the barrel breech. I'd glass bed any re-pop in a heart beat! (remember to put a piece of foil or tape over the rammer spoon channel if applicable) Goex powder and RWS caps used since 1970-something.

I hope all this helps.

Thanks - back to the drawin board by the looks of things
we been using old style minies from a HT Bugg mold (much heavier than the Lyman)
also have a LEE old style mold that worked ok in the 48 twist two bander
This Zoli came with a LEE 575-472 mold (a big flat nose but not the trash can one) - it was a dumb trade I did with a bloke and has spent ages sitting around - its looked like a decent made thing so still here - shoots round ball nice and easy but I have RB guns I like better .

[Ithaca Gunner]

Thanks - back to the drawin board by the looks of things
we been using old style minies from a HT Bugg mold (much heavier than the Lyman)
also have a LEE old style mold that worked ok in the 48 twist two bander
This Zoli came with a LEE 575-472 mold (a big flat nose but not the trash can one) - it was a dumb trade I did with a bloke and has spent ages sitting around - its looked like a decent made thing so still here - shoots round ball nice and easy but I have RB guns I like better .

I think the Lyman number is 575494, a 315gr, thin skirt wad-cutter design, (out of production I believe) they shot well with 35-45gr. charge of FFFg. but they loose accuracy much past 50yd. Good plinker bullet and cheap on lead and powder for short range. I never had any luck with LEE's copy of the 575213NS, they look good out of the mold, but just didn't shoot well. I've had good shooting with Rapine's ''International'' bullet, a copy of Lyman's 575213OS but with a little different cavity shape. They discontinued it for some reason, the LEE .58 ''trash can'' bullet was popular with some shooters, but I never tried it. I did try the Hogdon modern Minnie SWC type mold, but it did no better than either of Lyman's 575213 designs.

In my experience, if you can't get either of Lyman's 575213 designs to shoot well in a .58 rifle or rifle-musket, you might want to take a hard look at the gun, particularly it's bedding. Usually just a little bedding compound around the breech area will improve things quite a bit. Some guns shoot right off, others need a little added attention.

Something I've see on the line is some shooters will use a cake decorator syringe and inject Crisco into the hollow base of their bullets just before shooting. I guess it works for them, but I never tried it, (I figured it would contaminate what ever powder it came in contact with).

Even though Zoli sold their Mississippi Rifle with a .58 barrel, I wonder if they rifled them differently than their Zouave barrels. Somewhere I have the Shooting Times article from the early 70's when they first introduced the Mississippi re-pop rifle. Maybe that'll tell us something useful.

[indian joe]

I think the Lyman number is 575494, a 315gr, thin skirt wad-cutter design, (out of production I believe) they shot well with 35-45gr. charge of FFFg. but they loose accuracy much past 50yd. Good plinker bullet and cheap on lead and powder for short range. I never had any luck with LEE's copy of the 575213NS, they look good out of the mold, but just didn't shoot well. I've had good shooting with Rapine's ''International'' bullet, a copy of Lyman's 575213OS but with a little different cavity shape. They discontinued it for some reason, the LEE .58 ''trash can'' bullet was popular with some shooters, but I never tried it. I did try the Hogdon modern Minnie SWC type mold, but it did no better than either of Lyman's 575213 designs.

In my experience, if you can't get either of Lyman's 575213 designs to shoot well in a .58 rifle or rifle-musket, you might want to take a hard look at the gun, particularly it's bedding. Usually just a little bedding compound around the breech area will improve things quite a bit. Some guns shoot right off, others need a little added attention.

Something I've see on the line is some shooters will use a cake decorator syringe and inject Crisco into the hollow base of their bullets just before shooting. I guess it works for them, but I never tried it, (I figured it would contaminate what ever powder it came in contact with).

Even though Zoli sold their Mississippi Rifle with a .58 barrel, I wonder if they rifled them differently than their Zouave barrels. Somewhere I have the Shooting Times article from the early 70's when they first introduced the Mississippi re-pop rifle. Maybe that'll tell us something useful.

Its shallow three groove rifling - looks like the lands are a tad wider than the grooves but that maybe the way I am looking at it - dont know if its progressive depth - would doubt it with an italian repro but who knows.

Ages since I checked the twist, cant remember if it was 72" or 78" --ideal round ball twist for a 58 I thought at the time (still do)

A sidebar - when we got son's Euroarms two bander all the advice was 40 - 45 grains of powder, we had the LEE traditional minie - we were shooting a slow but clean burning chinese fireworks powder and it was hopeless, sideways through the paper at 40 yards - I had made him a 45 grain horn measure - when we tipped in two of those it all came together (this would be equivalent to maybe 80 grains FFG goex ?) - later he got the Bugg mold (about 550 grains I think) he took it to a long range match (local club) and with that 90 grain load that gun shot accurate and spot on its barrel sights out to 600 yards . we never altered that load until we ran out of that powder.
We sent a perfectly good three band Euroarms down the road before this - only had the LEE mold
Later years saw a bloke at a major shoot - long time blackpowder dude but his first try at a military style - had a Parker Hale enfield three band he couldnt get to shoot - We checked the twist - slooooow - told him try some round ball in it - he borrowed up some ball and patches for the second leg of a match and came back grinning .

I always blamed the slow twist for troubles here and believe thats right to a degree - the two band rifles and musketoons seem to give no trouble but the slow twist long guns beat a lot of blokes (they not all idiots either) aside from the other stuff you mention (which I class as accurising = the difference between a good group and staying on the paper at 100yards ) there has got to be something critical about the dimensions of the minie that work and one that looks similar and wont shoot (with a slow twist) maybe base plug shape and dimensions are the secret ? its got to be something simple about dimensions that make the difference to stability ?

Anyway I go on the lookout for a Lyman mold and maybe try a bit harder with what I have got. Thanks for your time and effort!!!

Have to admit too that I am not a military guy (who woulda guessed) put the shoe on the other foot - hand me a round ball gun with a barrel thats not a sewer and I can get it shooting pretty quick - thats been my game for 30 + years, some other fellers cant do that so easy.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Joe, a three groove shallow constant depth barrel is standard with the Italian re-pops, the question is what twist they used. Probably 1:72 since that's what you came up with using a rod. As far as I know, there's only two manufacturers who used progressive depth rifling in their guns, Parker-Hale, (discontinued) and the long out of production Miroku 1864 Springfield re-pop. Bob Hoyt and Dan Whitacre, both barrel makers and will reline barrels use the progressive depth rifling, (though Whitacre only offers 1:72 twist). In a .580 barrel, the land diameter remains constant at .580 the entire length, the groove diameter from breech to muzzle progressively shallows from .015 deep at the breech to .005 deep at the muzzle.

The Zoli Mississippi was a reasonable simile of an original which had been rebored to .58 so to fire the new standard ammunition with no additional modifications done such as sights and a bayonet lug added. Original unaltered Mississippi's were .54 with deep grooves to use a patched round ball. A great many were altered in the later 1850's to use the same ammunition as the new Springfield and Harper's Ferry rifles and rifle-muskets of .58. As I recall there were around a dozen different alterations, (some were left in .54) by Gov't arsenals, state contracts, and Colt who bought the guns, altered them, then sold them back at a profit.

Another wealth of information is, Managing The Enfield by Research Press. Just do a search on, managing the enfield and you'll have it.




Here's an article written by, Southern Sr. 24th. Georgia Inf. N-SSA. It goes into the history and why they used progressive depth rifling in rifles and rifle-muskets.

Progressive Depth Rifling was one of those "Accidental" 19th Century discoveries that enhanced the accuracy of Minie Ball firing Rifles.

The discovery came about when the French army decided to rifle some old, smoothbore muskets to turn them into Minie Rifles. The problem that the machinists that operated the rifling machine was that while the breech section of the barrel had barrel walls that were fairly thick, such was not the case at the muzzle. The muzzle on those old smoothbore barrels had pretty thin barrel walls.

So, cutting a deep rifling groove in the muzzle area of the barrel was not possible as a deep groove would weaken the muzzle area of the barrel way too much.

So, the "compromise" the machinists developed was to cut DEEP rifling grooves in the breech where the barrel wall was thick and then "progressively" as the barrel walls thinned toward the muzzle, to make the groove cut more and more shallow.

THAT WORKED!

Then when they mounted sights on those formerly smoothbore [now rifled] barrels, they made an amazing discovery!

The rifled barrels SHOT MUCH MORE ACCURATELY THAN BARRELS WITH CONSTANT DEPTH RIFLING!!!

The British, around that same time, were engaged (along with the French as Allies) in the Crimean War against Russia..

The new,.577 Caliber, 1st Model, P-53 Enfield Rifled-Muskets with constant depth rifling were sent to the Crimea and issued out to the troops, replacing their earlier .70 caliber "Minie rifles."

While the 1st Model Enfields became popular with the troops, the one thing that the troopers complained about was that after a few shots, and when the fouling built up in the bore, the new Enfields became extremely hard to load.

Well, as one can imagine, having a rifle that is difficult to re-load while other people are shooting at you would definitely affect one's morale.

The British Ordnance Select Committee got right on to the problem, and came up with a solution AFTER the war was over.

The committee decided to adopt Progressive Depth Rifling for the Enfield! The rifling grooves were cut .013" at the breech and gradually becoming shallower until the grooves were only .05" deep at the muzzle.

Shortly thereafter, the British Ordnance Select Committee decreed that the diameter of the paper patched Pritchett (Minie Ball) bullet be reduced from .568" diameter to .550" diameter.

Then the British soldiers that were issued the new, 2nd Model P-53 Enfields with Progressive Depth Rifling had the "Best of Both Worlds" because not only were the new .550" diameter bullets more accurate, but because they were of smaller diameter, they were easier to load in fouled barrels!

Unfortunately, with all of the replica rifle-muskets being made, ONLY Parker-Hale made their replica Enfields with "Progressive Depth Rifling." All the other replicas have "Constant Depth Rifling" and hence one must hold the diameter of their Minie Balls no smaller than .002" UNDER bore diameter.

Uncle Sam was no fool, because with the U.S. Model 1855 series of arms, American rifle-muskets and rifles came with Progressive Depth Rifling. We copied the British!

[dave951]

Lots to unpack here.

Most problems in getting minies to shoot well are NOT stemming from the TWIST RATE. Of all the repops and originals I've shot or worked with, twist rate seemed to be irrelevant except with very lightweight bullets. If the minie is sized to .001 or at most .002 under the bore size AND is cast from pure lead AND proper load components are used, decent to excellent accuracy will result. By proper load components I mean quality real black powder, either Swiss or Old Eynsford, RWS or Schuetzen caps, and a natural based lube like beeswax/lard. Some experimentation will have to be done to balance the powder charge against the bullet but there is almost always a point where things come together. The only bullets I've had real issues in trying to get them to shoot were very light ones like about 315gr. My most accurate are right at 400gr. This isn't rocket science. Use what I've outlined and you'll find the gun will shoot fine if you can.

[dave951]

One further comment on shooting minies-

As an instructor I'll say this, most folks I've seen can't shoot a muzzleloader well and they blame the guns. In a black powder, muzzleloading musket, everything happens at a snail's pace compared to a modern arm. That means any flaws in your technique are greatly magnified on target. Other things that can hugely affect how a musket/muzzleloader shoots from the bench is your bench technique. How you hold the gun, where you rest the forearm, how you break the shot are all critical. Case in point, here's a picture of a group I shot with a 54cal Kibler Colonial flintlock. The owner shot the exact same load but couldn't get under 5in. It's all technique. I showed him how I did it and after some coaching, he's pretty close to this now. The one flyer is a long hangfire.
294066

[indian joe]

One further comment on shooting minies-

As an instructor I'll say this, most folks I've seen can't shoot a muzzleloader well and they blame the guns. In a black powder, muzzleloading musket, everything happens at a snail's pace compared to a modern arm. That means any flaws in your technique are greatly magnified on target. Other things that can hugely affect how a musket/muzzleloader shoots from the bench is your bench technique. How you hold the gun, where you rest the forearm, how you break the shot are all critical. Case in point, here's a picture of a group I shot with a 54cal Kibler Colonial flintlock. The owner shot the exact same load but couldn't get under 5in. It's all technique. I showed him how I did it and after some coaching, he's pretty close to this now. The one flyer is a long hangfire.
294066


Dave if I took this personally I would find it insulting. I dont claim to be the greatest shot on earth but I managed to hold my head up in competition since 1990.
I can bench a blackpowder rifle half decent 294068

in case you cant count theres five!

[dave951]

I'm making an observation and so far, it's held true. If you have been serious about competition shooting, then you're probably acquainted with the fundamentals, but go to the range, Joe Average is there blazing away. He can't hit a barn from inside the hayloft and blames the gun. I often hear something like "my gun is accurate, I hit a deer every year" well, I can do that with a Ford. Or, I can hit a 12in gong at 100yd, that's nice, my son can do that with a handgun. The real thing when discussing guns and accuracy is using a quantifiable standard and most don't. It's like fishing stories. And yes, most folks I've seen shooting muzzleloaders, and by that I mean the casual shooters, not hardcore competition folks, can't shoot well with a muzzleloader and they blame the gun.

In the case of the posted pic, this was a newly assembled Kibler and those shots were shots 10, 11, 12 and 13. That's why the group is where it is.

[Eddie Southgate]

Mine is from the early 60's , my pap used it during the Civil War Centennial . I use 575213 or 575213 OS unsized with 55-65 grains of ffg . I used to use an amber colored cup grease for lube but I haven't been able to find it in years , Crisco works good also .

PS : Mine also shoots PRB just fine and is a tad easier on the shoulder if shooting all day . I use the same powder charge as I use for the minnie , 55g for targets and 65 for game, ball .010 under and pillow ticking .

[indian joe]

I'm making an observation and so far, it's held true. If you have been serious about competition shooting, then you're probably acquainted with the fundamentals, but go to the range, Joe Average is there blazing away. He can't hit a barn from inside the hayloft and blames the gun. I often hear something like "my gun is accurate, I hit a deer every year" well, I can do that with a Ford. Or, I can hit a 12in gong at 100yd, that's nice, my son can do that with a handgun. The real thing when discussing guns and accuracy is using a quantifiable standard and most don't. It's like fishing stories. And yes, most folks I've seen shooting muzzleloaders, and by that I mean the casual shooters, not hardcore competition folks, can't shoot well with a muzzleloader and they blame the gun.

In the case of the posted pic, this was a newly assembled Kibler and those shots were shots 10, 11, 12 and 13. That's why the group is where it is.

Ok Dave ---you win - I lose - who cares ?

I would like to thank Ithaca gunner for his helpful suggestions that just might get this show on the road for me - much effort and much appreciated

Dave951 - as an instructor .................................................. .................................................. .ya missed the target mate - didnt even put a hole in the backing board...............................

[missionary5155]

Good evening
Our Zoli Navy Arms was one of our well used ML corn cruncher rifles for years. Probably took over 20 with plain old .570 cast RB and a.10 patch pushed by 85 grains of 3F Goex.
Changed out the rear sight for a home made peep sight fro angle iron. We hunt river bottoms so 33 yards is longest shot. I do know that load will go through two does standing side by side at 20 yards on a very foggy morning.
At 100 yards it will still soot a 4 inch 5 shot group me sitting in the dirt. Bought it in 82 already used for 10 years by a deer hunter.

[indian joe]

Good evening
Our Zoli Navy Arms was one of our well used ML corn cruncher rifles for years. Probably took over 20 with plain old .570 cast RB and a.10 patch pushed by 85 grains of 3F Goex.
Changed out the rear sight for a home made peep sight fro angle iron. We hunt river bottoms so 33 yards is longest shot. I do know that load will go through two does standing side by side at 20 yards on a very foggy morning.
At 100 yards it will still soot a 4 inch 5 shot group me sitting in the dirt. Bought it in 82 already used for 10 years by a deer hunter.

ours not been used that much - one pig and one goat years ago
similar shooting result as yours, 4 to 5 inches at 100 yards sitting - 562 ball and a 15thou patch - (sitting is my best position - used to pretty much "own" the sitting leg of three position events around the ml comps) .
our gun made in 1979 - crappy sights and we broke a mainspring otherwise a well executed piece - good wood, nice plum brown finish.

[Jeff Michel]

If memory serves... 60 grains of FFG and a Minnie ball was the standard load. Works well in my Zouave. Good luck, they are a lot of fun.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Dave is right, the twist isn't as critical as some would believe for shooting normal ranges, 50-100yds. (someone sat down and figured the ''avearge'' battle range of the Civil War was 123yds.) and these boys went about their business with what-ever they happened to be issued, rifled or smooth-bore. There were complaints, mostly cavalry with some of the patented breech-loaders they were issued. One such instance comes to mind with infantry long arms, a N.J. regiment issued faulty Enfield long pattern rifle-muskets, (P-1853 with smaller than normal bores) before their first action at Gettysburg. After the fighting their commander had them stack their Enfields neatly on the battlefield after the action and pick up Springfields. A company 1st.sgt. happened to pick up a Confederate Richmond, declared it an equal to the Springfield and turned it against it's former alliance. I believe that story comes from Harry Pfanz's book, ''Gettysburg-The Second Day'', if someone else has read this and I'm wrong about where I read it, please feel free to note where it was you read it.

So long as the barrel isn't worn, pitted, or damaged, and is properly bedded it should shoot reasonably well with a Burton bullet, (the American version of the Minnie) good powder and caps.

[indian joe]

Well guys ................twist rate IS critical with any kind of elongated projectile (as is the shape and balance of the missile being launched)

If we are operating close to the edge with stability you will never know until it goes haywire - been there done that one - went from tackhole accurate to sideways through the paper and all that changed was a drop in ambient temperature (about 25 degrees C drop) - one grain more powder put it right and then the manufacturer made a VERY slight change to the shape of the bullet (speer 70 grain x 224 in a 14 twist winchester barrel for anybody still reading) - that was THE END of that project.

Thanks to all the to and fro ing here I now have a good drawing of the Burton minie to work backwards from (no hope at this point of me downunder getting that Lyman mold unless one turns up local second hand) -- so I can do some comparison measurements on the molds we do have. base plug for starters is different.

Obviously mr Burton was diligent enough to figure out a design that overcame the disadvantage of the unsuitable slow twist in these long guns.

[Ithaca Gunner]

All I can say is, they did well enough with the 1:72 twist in the Springfields and the Brits did pretty well indeed with the 1:78 twist in their Enfields. The Royal Navy DID teach us all a few things with their P58 with the 1:48 twist, so much so the Royal Army adopted it in 1860/1861 for their short rifles. The P58 Naval rifle was so good in fact, every one of them bought by the Confederacy went to their sharp-shooters. They were starting to figure it out, but still the standard infantry weapons were still slow twist...and still, my Fayetteville with the 1:72 twist turns in good scores at 100yds. Good as any P58 I ever shot. The P58 will do much better at longer ranges, but up to 2-300yds. I doubt there's much real difference.

What James Burton figured out was how to make a bullet shoot without a wood, iron, or clay plug to make it expand into the rifling upon ignition.

[dave951]

Well guys ................twist rate IS critical with any kind of elongated projectile (as is the shape and balance of the missile being launched)


The Greenhill formula is just a guideline. As you've stated, it's generally important but it does not take into account the C/G of the projectile as it assumes that the elongated projectile is solid from nose to tail while a minie is not by design. It also doesn't take into account the shape of the ogive and base from which BC (ballistic coefficient) are calculated. With minie design bullets, I've seen slow twists in the 1:72 shoot just as well at 1:48 out to 300yd.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Ithaca Gunner;5330501]All I can say is, they did well enough with the 1:72 twist in the Springfields and the Brits did pretty well indeed with the 1:78 twist in their Enfields. The Royal Navy DID teach us all a few things with their P58 with the 1:48 twist, so much so the Royal Army adopted it in 1860/1861 for their short rifles. The P58 Naval rifle was so good in fact, every one of them bought by the Confederacy went to their sharp-shooters. They were starting to figure it out, but still the standard infantry weapons were still slow twist...and still, my Fayetteville with the 1:72 twist turns in good scores at 100yds. Good as any P58 I ever shot. The P58 will do much better at longer ranges, but up to 2-300yds. I doubt there's much real difference.

So at least you not gonna tell me my preference for the 48 twist p58 is wrong ?

[Ithaca Gunner]

I believe the P58 to be the pinnacle of the muzzle loading military rifle!

Here's mine, a fine condition 1861, (Royal Marine Artillery short rifle version).

294194

[dave951]

[QUOTE=Ithaca Gunner;5330501]All I can say is, they did well enough with the 1:72 twist in the Springfields and the Brits did pretty well indeed with the 1:78 twist in their Enfields. The Royal Navy DID teach us all a few things with their P58 with the 1:48 twist, so much so the Royal Army adopted it in 1860/1861 for their short rifles. The P58 Naval rifle was so good in fact, every one of them bought by the Confederacy went to their sharp-shooters. They were starting to figure it out, but still the standard infantry weapons were still slow twist...and still, my Fayetteville with the 1:72 twist turns in good scores at 100yds. Good as any P58 I ever shot. The P58 will do much better at longer ranges, but up to 2-300yds. I doubt there's much real difference.

So at least you not gonna tell me my preference for the 48 twist p58 is wrong ?

I wouldn't say that the preference for the P58 is wrong. I shoot a P58 in competition BUT there are differences. Just because another rifle has a slower twist, when shooting minies doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a handicap at ranges out to 100yd. When looking at a P58 v 1863 Contract aka "Zouave", there are ergonomic differences. P58- sight radius is shorter, rear sight is closer to muzzle, stock shape is "odd" from what most Americans are used to. I have a 1862 Colt contract that is the 2 band version of the Springfield. Both it and my P58 shoot equally well in competition. Both shoot one hole groups at 50yd. So why do I prefer the P58? Simple, it has post and notch sights whereas my Springfield has a peep. In N-SSA competition, it's entirely possible that the range will be obscured by smoke making sighting challenging with a post and notch and nearly impossible with a peep. So I put up with the weird stock shape to keep sights clear.

[Ithaca Gunner]

For my aging eyes the sight on the P58 seems a benefit rather than a handicap. I always fit right into the Enfield stock until I injured my shoulder last year, now just trying to shoulder one is painful. My favorite shooter from my N-SSA days is a Windsor Enfield with a Hoyt 1:60 liner, that gun never disappointed me. Another is a 1862 Fayetteville I swapped a rolling block for, ''Lewie'' on 2nd VA. Inf made it with a Whitacre 1:72 barrel. Both shoot great with 55gr. FFFg under a Lyman 575213OS. Behind me right now is an 1863 Springfield with a 1:48 Hoyt liner that needs a trigger job and possibly the barrel bedded. I only shot it once so far and it didn't perform up to standards. A P-H Musketoon 1:48 finishes out my collection.

The only one I've shot out to 300yds. was the Windsor, and it did very well. Claud E. Fuller's book, ''The Rifled Musket'' holds a treasure, about 1/3 of the book is a copy of targets shot with various long arms used in the Civil War, shot by soldiers using issue ammunition at ranges out to 500yds. Some targets shot by squad on command, others shot by what seems the best individual shot. Over-all, these guns were good as were the men who shot them. They knew what they were doing, better guns hadn't been developed yet. It's easy for us to look back and nit-pick, imagine what was good and bad, but the men who used them didn't have that advantage, they made them work.

[Rifledude]

Hellgate: yes it is a three groove barrel, and you're correct that it is a booger to try to measure, and I don't have pin gauges that large. I have a couple of mini molds coming, and made up some .575 round balls today that fit snugly into the bore nestled in their lubed patch. So as the man said: "We'll soon see".

[Ithaca Gunner]

Call around to machine shops in your area and ask if they will measure it with pin gauges for you, if they have them. I have a collection of sizing dies from .574-.580 and just use sized boolits to measure them, but I have multiple guns to justify the expense.

[Rifledude]

smithnframe, It appears to be 1-60".