Suggestions on first ML

[HighUintas]

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to black powder. I've shot a few hundred rounds of it in my 45-90 this year. But, I've been interested in having a muzzleloader for awhile and hopefully can purchase one in 2022. I'm looking for some suggestions based on budget, quality, use, and what I'd like to shoot.

I would prefer a flintlock due to the ease of self sufficiency in not having to make or buy percussion caps. I had wanted a hawken style pedersoli flintlock, but a gentleman I was talking to at the range said the locks on them are prone to breaking or not functioning properly without needing "tuned". Not sure which he was referring to.

This is for general fun, as well as hunting primarily elk but also deer, out to 200 yards (maybe). So, I'm thinking I'd like a 54cal. I'd like to have a double set trigger, and hopefully something with a slightly faster twist so I have the option of shooting a conical or PRB. I'd also like to be able to put a peep or ladder type sight on since these shoot more like rainbows, and that would make a 200yd Target easier to aim on. My budget, hopefully, is about $1000. With those wishes, it's not looking like there's any traditional style that fits. I think the tang ladder peep would certainly be an add on anyway. The closest fit I could find is the pedersoli Jager hunter or Lyman great plains hunter, one being well over budget. But of course, the lock quality had been questioned by the gentleman I talked to.

I looked into kits that are "in the white" to make my first kit build, or rather finishing, easier. I found TVM and Kibler kits, both of reported high quality. But they don't have the twist I'd be hoping for and Kibler doesn't offer a double set trigger in 54 cal. And I think both would be over budget.

So.... Hmmmmm.

Does anyone have any suggestions or am I just thinking of a fantasy muzzleloader? Could I be confident in the lock quality on the Lyman plains hunter or a pedersoli hawken flinter?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If a flinter is what you want, by all means buy one. But the self-sufficiency argument falls a little flat, because you'll still need a supply of flints and knapping them is an ancient and difficult art. I'd advise a percussion cap model, as a case of 1,000 caps will go a long ways, and with a flintlock it's not always easy to keep your powder dry. I have 3 Hawken-type cap rifles and recommend them highly. Unfortunately, two are T/C (no longer in production) and a CVA St. Louis Hawken, also out of print,
so I can not offer advice on which of the current offerings to buy.

DG

[HighUintas]

If a flinter is what you want, by all means buy one. But the self-sufficiency argument falls a little flat, because you'll still need a supply of flints and knapping them is an ancient and difficult art. I'd advise a percussion cap model, as a case of 1,000 caps will go a long ways, and with a flintlock it's not always easy to keep your powder dry. I have 3 Hawken-type cap rifles and recommend them highly. Unfortunately, two are T/C (no longer in production) and a CVA St. Louis Hawken, also out of print,
so I can not offer advice on which of the current offerings to buy.

DG

Thanks for the advice. I was wondering about the difficulty of finding and knapping my own flints; I've not looked into that yet, but I thought it might at least be easier to stockpile a lifetime supply of flints over caps, in the case that making my own flints is a lifetime learning curve haha. I do expect to have both lock types at some point because I'm interested in both! There's just something alluring about the flintlock and wanted to give that a go first. If it looks like it would be easier to get a quality and reliable percussion lock within my budget, I might go that route first.

[Adam Helmer]

High,

Welcome to Flintlocks. First, I suggest you buy and read Lyman's "Black Powder" Handbook. Second, I suggest you visit a few gun shops and view the used gun rack for a flintlock and PUT out the Word you are looking for a flintlock in the $1,000, or less, range.

I have too many flintlocks and all are easy to use when you pay attention to details. I never did successfully knap a flint in over 40 years. I do successfully retore/sharpen flints on a whetstone.

Good shooting.

Adam

[hc18flyer]

DG- I agree with most of your comments, mostly shoot caplocks for past 30 years, hunt Whitetails too. I have only one flint smoothbore. Honestly I learned to keep my flings sparking, easily. I have a small bag of flints that will last a couple lifetimes. I have a couple of TC's and a Lyman GP caplocks. I always wanted a friend's iron mounted Southern Mountain Rifle from Dixie Gun Work's. I am trying to get my Grandson hooked on blackpowder now!

[Shawlerbrook]

A caplock Hawken type rifle is hard to beat.

[freakonaleash]

I'd suggest saving more money.

[1Hawkeye]

Kibler kits and a copy of Chuck Dixon's book on how to build a muzzle loader should get you going in the right direction.

[LAGS]

My suggestion is to look around and Handle different rifles to see which model and design Fits You best.
I have 6 TC Renegades.
Two of them have less Drop in the stock making it harder to sight because my face is pressed against the stock real hard.
I can put on taller sights , or even use these two with scopes.
Same thing with my Traditions St. Louis Hawkens I built from a kit.
Some of the TC Hawkens That I have , do have slightly different drops in the stock because they too span many years of production.
I have 4 of the Hawkens by TC.
But ,
so far the Lyman's and Pedersoli fit me just fine.
And the locks on Pedersoli work just fine , and are far better than Traditions.
But ALL locks need to be fine tuned , not really modified.
But for your first ML rifle I would look into a used TC.
Good quality , at a reasonable price.
I buy lots of them , and rebuild them into nice well functioning rifles.
If I find ones with bad barrels , I just send them to Bob Hoyt to be redone to my specs for what I intend on using them for.
Those I can find Dirt Cheap , especially ones built from kits.

[mooman76]

200y is a fair shot for a ML. I'm not saying it isn't doable, but you will need the right setup. You might do a search of Idahoron and see what he has. Sounds like what you are wanting in the long run.

[LAGS]

Most of the post I have seen and ones on YouTube show Idahoron shooting a TC he calls a Hot Rod Hawken.
I bet that would be exactly what you are looking for .
Except it is Percussion not Flint.
I think it is a .54 with double triggers and peep sight, hooded front sight and it has a recoil pad for those heavy loads.

[charlie b]

There were these:

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/muzzleloader-black-powder-guns-equipment-supplies/muzzleloaders/traditions-pa-50-caliber-cerakote-flintlock-traditional-muzzleloader-26in/p/1697018

Don't know if they still make them. Most claim the locks are poor at best, but, it is a fast twist, short barrel.

The problem with heavy conicals is the pressures when firing 80-100gn behind a 400gn bullet. I even have problems with percussion nipples when firing the heavy loads.

If interested, look up the sticky on paper patching above. Ron's notes on how to use paper patched conicals is great stuff.

[Brokenbear]

I can tell you a flint lock in the mountains on a 10 day elk hunt will come out one of two ways ..decent weather you've a chance of bang if/when you need it
Get some bad wet weather with temps wide ranging and if/when you need it ??? you don't want to shoot it out end of day and sure reliable cleaning in an elk camp is a maybe flint or percussion
Percussion cap ..clear nail polish around the cap and balloon on the muzzle ..leave out of the heated tent ..it will go bang
Done it many times (new cap daily)
Bear

[HWooldridge]

I sold it due to eyesight issues but my Uberti Santa Fe .54 Hawken was a great rifle and would shoot well with either ball or bullet. It did best with 90 gr FFg and patched ball - when I did my part, it would shoot under 2” at 100 yards. Was percussion - I never had much experience with flinters.

I also built a .45 “po’ boy”, which was also very accurate with patched ball. 42” barrel with 1-66” twist.

[OverMax]

Have a TC flinter. A nice 50cal rifle but not my choice to tote afield. T/C's idea of a crescent stock on all Hawken models irregardless of caliber are punishing for its shooter. (54's are especially so.) Reduction in powder measure will reduce such overwhelming recoil but also the projectiles accuracy also.

[badwolf]

I've had good luck with lyman flintlock had a 54 deerstalker for years and my brother has a 50. We can only use flintlock in pa. There's a learning curve for sure to keep them firing and practice follow through when shooting.

[Tar Heel]

A Flintlock Rifle can be a work of art or just another rifle. When a flintlock rifle is properly made with beautiful wood and a swamped barrel, it is a joy to handle and shoot. A properly attached lock with the touch-hole in the correct position is critical to a fine tuned lockwork. Traditional "entry level" rock guns are hit or miss in both departments. They use the cheapest wood possible and their locks sort of function.

When I built my Isaac Haines rock gun in the mid-80's, I knew I wanted that period rifle for the look and feel. I took as much time as needed to complete the rifle and was always drooling at the rifles offered up for sale at rendezvous or in the stores like Dixie Gun Works. Decent looking rifles that had been hand built by local gun makers were bringing in $1,500 or more back then. Most were higher.

Looking at the rifles available today on DGW, a believable price would be around $3,000 for a nice rifle. I would suggest viewing these guns for many months and if possible, get to an area or event where you can handle a lot of them. Decide which style pleases your eye and which style feels best for you. Decide which caliber rifle you want. A 36 can be difficult to run and has limits as to game hunting. A 45 is sweet, but I think a 50 rules the roost. Start saving the dollars and keep looking.

I have taken many head of game with my Isaac Haines 50 caliber rifle in all types of weather. Use of a cows knee over the lock will keep the rascal dry if hunting in foul weather. Learning all these tricks are essential to bagging game - just like our ancestors did in the smokies many years ago.

My rifle is pleasant to look at, handles like a dream, and the lockwork is FAST due to proper placement of the pan in relation to the touch-hole. The 50 caliber round ball drops deer like they were hit with an 18-wheeler. Boom! Down!

You will be much happier if you salt away the money for a nice looking flinter. Hopefully you are at a point in life where this is possible for you to do. If not, then do the best you can with a name brand flinter you like. The Lyman Plains Rifle appeals to me and I would not mind having one of those. Hopefully the lock would be positioned correctly and if not, a good builder may be able to make minor corrections to your rifle to get it shooting faster.

Good luck with this adventure and if you can, get up to Dixie Gun Works if you live on the east coast or out to Track of the Wolf, whichever is closer. Handle some guns and ask a gazillion questions. The right rifle will find you!

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[John McCorkle]

Look for a tc hawken or renegade in 54...set aside budget for a case of a thousand caps and enjoy.

You can make caps with relative ease if you are careful and have a few ten thousand on hand...would be easier than picking up flint knapping (maybe....both skills and both require a few tools)

Handle a few....see what feels good to your hands. A rifle you enjoy shooting will be far more valuable than one that checks all the boxes of theory in what you think would be important... meaning, I have several rifles I thought I'd like more because they filled the specific needs I thought I had. When...in reality....the ones I use over and over and over are used because I like them...ease if use and pleasure to shoot...in short.... enjoyment.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

[HighUintas]

Thanks for all the help fellas. Here is some additional information that you guys might be able to help with.

I do want to be able to pick a few up and see how they feel, but I live in Utah near salt lake and there are no shops carrying percussion or flintlocks nearby, to my knowledge. Pinedale, WY is a few hours away and a place my wife and I enjoy visiting, so maybe there are some shoots in that area I could visit and find some folks that would let me handle theirs. I believe there is a green river rendezvous that happens annually up there, but I don't know if there's a large presence of ML shooters that go. Does anyone have any recommendations or knowledge of clubs in my area?

Also, I certainly don't plan to do a long backpacking hunt trip with it, at least not at first ;) for hunting, it would mainly be used when I car camp or am not far from my vehicle until I learn more of the tricks for field management of the gun in weather, etc.

After looking more at kits and companies that offer them, I think I'll likely end up saving money for awhile and getting a nice one... Maybe even having the work done to get it finish ready for me. I am handy, but don't want to attempt an expert level kit on my first go.

I really like the look of the ~30" barrel Jager styles. So maybe I'll continue the search for a quality kit of that type in a 54 or 58. I looked at track of the wolf's early hawken 58cal fullsrock flinter kit and that's as good looking to me as a jager. I tend to like recoil for some reason ;) maybe due to growing up hunting with a 1.25oz slug moving at 1450fps.

[mmb617]

I would prefer a flintlock due to the ease of self sufficiency in not having to make or buy percussion caps.

I'm new to black powder myself having bought my first black powder gun in May of this year. I have to say it's addicting as I now have 5 black powder guns, all flintlocks.

I got interested in black powder because I was reloading all the ammo for my modern guns and then the great primer shortage hit and prices skyrocketed. I soon figured out that caps were just like primers, pretty much unavailable and when you could find them the price was way up there.

So I decided to start with a flintlock as flints were then and are now readily available and not overly expensive.

I can't comment on what might be better for hunting as I'm not a hunter myself, but I really enjoy shooting my flintlocks as I've fired over 2k shots since I bought that first muzzleloader 8 months ago.

[mooman76]

North of Ogden is Smith and Edwards. They care both real BP and caps. No idea if they have any in stock at this time though. Also do a search for the Free Mountain Trappers. They meet once a month in Ogden. They may be able to help you out.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have a few friends with Pedersoli made flintlocks. They are very happy with them. I have an original antique flintlock and wondering when I buy my next gun, if I shouldn’t get a reproduction from them. Be sure to get a newer gun for your first one. Original ones could have wear problems that will make them more difficult to learn on. You will probably have to pay more than $1000, for a new one though. At least you do over here.

[HighUintas]

I happened to find out there are a couple of older gentleman who live east of me in Utah that have a long history of building historically accurate hawken style rifles as well as many other styles. I'm going to try to contact them and see if they can show me their rifles and around their shop!

[LAGS]

Now , That would be a perfect move.
Good luck on what you see.

[fastdadio]

PM sent.

[HWooldridge]

If I recall correctly, Hansen mentions in his book examining an original .62 Hawken with a very slow twist, something like 1-120” or similar, which was shot multiple times and found to like heavy charges, on the order of 150 grains FFg with a patched ball. Accuracy was along the lines of 4” or so at 200 yards.. His conclusion was that it could easily take the largest of Western plains game, to include elk, buffalo and grizz.

[Bill*B]

I have always thought that Thompson Center rifles were well made, reliable, and good value for money. I'm speaking here of the traditional line - I have no experience with the modern in-line stuff.

[gc45]

My first BB rifle was a 50 cal Hawken and a real jewel it was for elk out to 100 yds as I could get good groups to that distance and it hit pretty hard IMO- Later, I had this very nice 40 cal caplock made by Ted Fellows that was a great deer rifle out to 50 yds. Right now, I have a remington 700 in-line liking both it's accuracy and ease of use.

[Beerd]

being from Utah and all, the OP might be lucky enough to stumble onto a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle
..

[HWooldridge]

being from Utah and all, the OP might be lucky enough to stumble onto a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle
..

I owned a JB .50 cal about 30 years ago and it was accurate as h@#$. It also liked patched ball better than slug.

[HighUintas]

I've not heard of those before, but sound nice. Browning always seems to turn out high quality rifles

[barnabus]

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to black powder. I've shot a few hundred rounds of it in my 45-90 this year. But, I've been interested in having a muzzleloader for awhile and hopefully can purchase one in 2022. I'm looking for some suggestions based on budget, quality, use, and what I'd like to shoot.

I would prefer a flintlock due to the ease of self sufficiency in not having to make or buy percussion caps. I had wanted a hawken style pedersoli flintlock, but a gentleman I was talking to at the range said the locks on them are prone to breaking or not functioning properly without needing "tuned". Not sure which he was referring to.

This is for general fun, as well as hunting primarily elk but also deer, out to 200 yards (maybe). So, I'm thinking I'd like a 54cal. I'd like to have a double set trigger, and hopefully something with a slightly faster twist so I have the option of shooting a conical or PRB. I'd also like to be able to put a peep or ladder type sight on since these shoot more like rainbows, and that would make a 200yd Target easier to aim on. My budget, hopefully, is about $1000. With those wishes, it's not looking like there's any traditional style that fits. I think the tang ladder peep would certainly be an add on anyway. The closest fit I could find is the pedersoli Jager hunter or Lyman great plains hunter, one being well over budget. But of course, the lock quality had been questioned by the gentleman I talked to.

I looked into kits that are "in the white" to make my first kit build, or rather finishing, easier. I found TVM and Kibler kits, both of reported high quality. But they don't have the twist I'd be hoping for and Kibler doesn't offer a double set trigger in 54 cal. And I think both would be over budget.

So.... Hmmmmm.

Does anyone have any suggestions or am I just thinking of a fantasy muzzleloader? Could I be confident in the lock quality on the Lyman plains hunter or a pedersoli hawken flinter?

i shoot alot of TC flintlocks.Flints are imported mostly so they are not readily available and if you can find them they have been limited to how many you can purchase for the past three years. If you have never shot a flinter be prepared for a LONG learning curve.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Have a TC flinter. A nice 50cal rifle but not my choice to tote afield. T/C's idea of a crescent stock on all Hawken models irregardless of caliber are punishing for its shooter. (54's are especially so.) Reduction in powder measure will reduce such overwhelming recoil but also the projectiles accuracy also.

The crescent butt rifles are meant to be shot from the upper arm, above the bicep. One moves the elbow up or down to adjust for sighting picture. They are not meant to be shot from the shoulder.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any suggestions or am I just thinking of a fantasy muzzleloader? Could I be confident in the lock quality on the Lyman plains hunter or a pedersoli hawken flinter?

When it comes to flintlocks, you can't afford cheap.

You can learn how to knap flint, the library is free and there are books on the subject that you can check out. Also look for YouTube videos.

On rifles, look for a Kibler rifle kit. https://kiblerslongrifles.com/

[FLINTNFIRE]

There are kits from all over TOW TVM and others all can be had for different skill levels in putting together , and yes most of us are aware of how the crescent butts are meant to be shot , but heavy and large caliber still add up to recoil .

Flints can still be purchased by the dozen at some places and yes they can be knapped , you can still find percussion caps here and there and musket caps also , prices are up supply is down .

If you can inlet and cut dovetails , do threading and finish work you can save some money and have all American parts , Those Browning rifles were nice looking , saw a new in the box awhile ago on gunbroker , price was not bad .

Most barrels are round ball twist , have not went shopping for parts in a few years , for a first gun Thompson Centers with the 1-48 twist sound closest to fitting the bill , add sight on tang if wanted .

[HighUintas]

I'm working on hand inletting a stock for my bolt gun right now! Boy is it slow.

I've never cut dovetails into barrels for sights, but I bet I could do it. The key on this stuff is going as slow as needed to make sure it's correct and stopping before you screw up if it doesn't seem right. Books and the internet university are really helpful.

I've been watching a guy build a long rifle step by step on rumble. It's from a plank, and the barrel wasn't dove tailed or anything and didn't have the vent drilled, so nearly from scratch, save for the parts being made. It's really helpful and interesting and has me confident I could build one the same way. It just might take me a long while to acquire all the necessary hand tools

[LAGS]

If you want to try something Slow and Tedious , try shaping the butt stock on a ML for a brass Crescent buttplate.
I am installing one on a stock right now that came with a flat buttplate.
Lots of angles and you have to watch all sides as you progress or it will be out of line.
This one isn't quite as hard as the one on my Blunderbuss that came half shaped and inletted for a extended comb tang.

[Sixgun Symphony]

You can swap out the cheap lock from low end ML rifles like CVA and Traditions with a quality lock from L&R lock company. This will get you reliable ignition.

https://lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=36&Itemid=62

Traditions rifles have very good barrels, change out the lock and you will have a good rifle and keep costs down.

[LAGS]

Swapping out parts for better parts is one thing I do when I buy used rifles cheaper.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Swapping out parts for better parts is one thing I do when I buy used rifles cheaper.

There are bargains to be had at pawnshops and swap meets. Especially in January as people spent their money on the holidays. Having cash allows negotiation of price.

[HighUintas]

Update. Been working on this all year. From a plank. Chambers lock :) I should have it finished in the next month or so. .58 cal rifle

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[dondiego]

If you did that from a plank, you have skills that I am lacking! Good job!

[Brimstone]

I've not had any issues with my Pedersoli Kentucky rifle nor any issues knapping my flints from the boulder of chert I found in the river. Doesn't last as long as flint but it still works and I have a lifetime supply of it.

[HighUintas]

Finally finished, except for engraving

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317761317762

[waksupi]

Nice job!