Winchester/miroku 45-90 fail to fire

[HighUintas]

I have a miroku made 45-90 that I got earlier this year and until last week only shot cast and BP in it. I decided to desecrate the thing and play with some smokeless and jacketed bullets. I had a couple of fail to fire/semi-squib rounds

For a preface, I've already cut the leg on the hammer mainspring (I think that's the term) that makes the hammer rebound. So it's no longer a rebounding hammer and I don't get light hammer strikes.

Here's the load:

Imr4198 50gr and 50.4gr
Hornady 300gr HP seated at cannelure
Cci200
2 rounds FTF/squib

The primer ignited, evidenced by the bullet getting lodged in the throat and then dumping powder into my action when extracting the case. Inspecting the leftover powder in the case, it was covered with the primer "soot" and was also sort of clumped together. So the primer ignited but didn't ignite the powder.

It being a 45-90, yes there was a bit of room between the powder and bullet. Case fill for this was around 83%, a full case being 60gr. But, I now can't remember if I measured that 60gr being a case full to the mouth or full to the bottom of the bullet. I think there was roughly 3/8 to 1/2" space between the 50gr charge and bullet base.

In all the other rounds, I tipped the muzzle upward before firing to make sure the powder was at the back of the case by the primer. No problem with those, and they were fairly accurate. About 2" max at 50 yards with a buckhorn sight.

So what are your thoughts? Bad primers? Too low of case fill? I definitely want to sort it out because I don't want to end up with a secondary detonation scenario. I'm pretty sure I can get the case a lot more full and maintain reasonable pressure, based on load research.

[NSB]

I use 4198 all the time in my Win/Miroku guns in 45-70. Never had this happen with that powder. I did have it happen with 3031 one time and it looked exactly like what you got. I quit using it. I guess if I were you, I’d put a “plucked/lofted” .5 grain bit of Dacron on top of the powder. Don’t pack it, just “pluck it up”and push it in the case. I use a pencil eraser end to tuck it on top of the powder when I use a filler.

[HighUintas]

Was wondering if I'd need to use a filler for this charge. I was really hoping to avoid it. I've not used them before.

Dacron is just synthetic stuffing material, right? I wonder if a 0.5gr piece of cotton ball would also work... It might not due to shape variance.

I wasn't able to measure velocity because I forgot my tripod adapter. I'll remember that next time so I have a better idea of where I'm at pressure wise

[ATCDoktor]

I had this exact thing happen when developing loads for my 1876 in 50/95.

Primer popped, bullet lodged in barrel, unburned powder came out in clumps.

Turned out I had loaded my test rounds with large pistol primers as opposed to large rifle primers and they (large pistol primers) weren’t hot enough to fully ignite the powder column.

I would bet that your issue lies with the primer being used.

[Walks]

I had a similar problem with WIN 1886 in .40-82WCF, it was suggested by one of the older shooters in My Club that I add a filler. I had no dacron at the time I was loading so I added corn meal. It tightened groups from 4 inches to just under 3 inches.
Never had a FTF or squib load since.

[veeman]

For filler, I use laundry lint from a load of towels, (almost no cat hair) just a pinch the size of my thumb nail, pushed in with a brass punch. (cuz thats what was on the bench at the time) Not packed, just pushed in.

[HighUintas]

I had this exact thing happen when developing loads for my 1876 in 50/95.

Primer popped, bullet lodged in barrel, unburned powder came out in clumps.

Turned out I had loaded my test rounds with large pistol primers as opposed to large rifle primers and they (large pistol primers) weren’t hot enough to fully ignite the powder column.

I would bet that your issue lies with the primer being used.
I've also got fed210, a small amount of win LRs and fed 215s.

Maybe I'll try the fed210 since I've got more of those.



For filler, I use laundry lint from a load of towels, (almost no cat hair) just a pinch the size of my thumb nail, pushed in with a brass punch. (cuz thats what was on the bench at the time) Not packed, just pushed in.

That's a good idea. I've got plenty of lint, with and without cat hair. Yum... I bet that burnt cat hair lint would smell great

[NSB]

I had a Winchester 64 .32 Special that had a weak hammer strike and a bit of spare headspace. I would have the occasional misfire combined with consistent vertical stringing. To me this indicates that primer ignition under these conditions can be variable also, even if it is sending off the charge. In that instance I cured both problems by using CCI Large Pistol Magnum primers (supposedly rifle strength but with softer cups).

Since then I have seen a number of lever actions of all models misfire with CCI LR primers. The problem usually goes away when Federal primers (softer) are used instead.
Be aware that Large Pistol Primers and Large Rifle Primers are not the same height. The Pistol Primer will sit “proud” in the case. This isn’t an ideal condition, especially in a tube fed rifle.

[eastbank]

i shoot my winchester 86 in 40-82 useing RL-7 and corn meal for a filler and it shoots three shots damn near one hole at 50 yards, no FTF.

[TurnipEaterDown]

In response to the prior comment about Large Pistol primers sitting proud in a Large Rifle primer pocket, no, that is backward.
The large rifle primer is taller, and a large rifle primer will sit high in a large pistol pocket.
See SAAMI dimensioning:
293518

[JFE]

I’d use a magnum rifle primer to provide more spark.

I assume you’re resizing and applying the right tension and crimping your bullets?

[NSB]

Be aware that Large Pistol Primers and Large Rifle Primers are not the same height. The Pistol Primer will sit “proud” in the case. This isn’t an ideal condition, especially in a tube fed rifle.
I stand corrected, the large pistol primer will sit too deep in the rifle pocket, not proud. Still a potential problem being a different height. Could get light strikes as a result.

[Castaway]

I’d load 5 with a magnum rifle primer and then if that doesn’t work, a slower powder and see if that cures the problem before I’d try a filler. Fillers scare me and would hate to ring a chamber. 20 years or or longer, there was an interesting write up about fillers that made the forum rounds. Lots of information, but one thing sticks in my mind, the writer was adamant about staying away from synthetics. Good luck

[Tar Heel]

Man. Just give up on all that modern junk and load Holy Black!

[eastbank]

after taking you 86 apart to clean it after shooting alot of black powder, let me know how you feel about that, i only shoot a few black powder shots on the 4TH of july out of the 86. my sharps 74 target rifle in 45-70 get mostly black powder shells shot thru it, very easy to take apart to give it a good cleaning.

[pietro]

I had a couple of fail to fire/semi-squib rounds

The primer ignited, evidenced by the bullet getting lodged in the throat and then dumping powder into my action when extracting the case.


IME, a too low powder charge and/or too long loaded cartridge OAL are the usual suspects if a primer change doesn't disappear the issue.

.

[indian joe]

Be aware that Large Pistol Primers and Large Rifle Primers are not the same height. The Pistol Primer will sit “proud” in the case. This isn’t an ideal condition, especially in a tube fed rifle.

Other way round mate, rifle primer is taller than the pistol primer - cases are cut to suit - 44mag case has shallower primer pocket than rifle cases (38/55 etc )

[NSB]

Other way round mate, rifle primer is taller than the pistol primer - cases are cut to suit - 44mag case has shallower primer pocket than rifle cases (38/55 etc )
A little late. Read #12.

[GregLaROCHE]

I was having problems getting all the powder to burn in 45/70 rounds. That’s not as bad as your problem, but magnum primers and heavy crimps made no difference. I went to a slightly faster powder and the problem was fixed. I would try some different powders to start.

[HighUintas]

I’d use a magnum rifle primer to provide more spark.

I assume you’re resizing and applying the right tension and crimping your bullets?

Yes. I'm using a 45-70 lyman FL die kit and the expander that came with it. I can't remember the diameter on that, but i think it's around .454 or .456. I also use a Lee factory crimp die on the cannelure... full crimp.


after taking you 86 apart to clean it after shooting alot of black powder, let me know how you feel about that, i only shoot a few black powder shots on the 4TH of july out of the 86. my sharps 74 target rifle in 45-70 get mostly black powder shells shot thru it, very easy to take apart to give it a good cleaning.

I've completely disassembled and reassembled the action 3 times, the first just to do it, the 2nd to clean it, and this time being the 3rd to get all the powder out. I cotton swab the action very well every time I shoot it, with a mix of ballistol and water. When I took it apart to clean it after 300 rounds of holy black, it looked like new except for the wear from working the action. It was actually dirtier after I shot smokeless in it the first time because one of the rounds, i think the failure to ignite powder rounds, had some gas blowback from the chamber to the breech bolt and dirtied up my bolt face and ejector something awful.

[eastbank]

yes, but smokless powder resadue will not attract moisture like black powder resadue and it will not take much to ruin the guts of any rifle thats not cleaned well. i shoot my sharps 74 in 45-70 and my baby sharps in 44-40 with mostly black powder, they are very easy to take down and clean.

[indian joe]

A little late. Read #12.

Whats the problem - info is correct yes?