357magnum hunting/hot load

[johnsonian09]

So if anyone recognizes this, I was working up a load for deer in 357 mag. I'm newer to the revolver world. It's a ruger gp100 6 inch barrel.

Been loading mp hammers flush to the cylinder so that the bullet barely clears when rotating around. I figured that would lower pressure and help out a bit since I'm running it on the hotter side, using lyman50th for reference.

Using the cup point they weight out to 166grns so I used the data for 358429

This is what 14.8 grns of h110 does to the primers. Sometimes they're blown pretty flat, sometimes they arent. Can see the rough millwork on the back of the revolver imprinted onto the primer cup too.

I dont normally try to get it all hot rodded up. No need with rifles,and accuracy seems great. Should I stop here or back off some? I think I'd back off but I'm not as familiar as some of you guys may be.

Might be a little subjective but,
My hand says it's not nearly as hot as some factory j-word 158grn pmc stuff that I shot a while ago. was almost painful to shoot a box of that..

That or I'm starting to like the recoil Lol

Any opinions?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211222/9cef256408561b5b1bf8ca110ce4285b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211222/bb1ad50a3ef2dead1455dcdbc1d7a981.jpg

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[megasupermagnum]

You aren't even close to max. I'd have to check data for an exact number, but you could safely go to 16 grains. In all likeliness, depending on your bullet, you could go up to 17gr, but I'd need more info first. You are just now at a decent starting load. I'd look at about 15.5-16 gr for best accuracy, although you do not state what exact bullet you are using.

[1006]

They look safe.

I think you have room for more pressure, as well. My 357 loads are based on a 125 grain Jacketed Hollow Point; a rifle primer allowed me to get the maximum velocity with a slightly lighter powder charge (less powder compression)with W296. I was using a 6inch S&W, N Frame.

Of course, if they are already traveling at an acceptable velocity and accuracy, it is time to shoot them.

[zarrinvz24]

I've loaded some 358311's about that weight cast and lubed, 16.5gr. I'd say your load is fine.

[johnsonian09]

Even with the primers being almost completely flat? Cool

the max listing for h110 w/ an 170grn is 15 grains of h110.
These mp hammers are 166 so I didn't want to use the 358311/160 load data which lists 16.5 for max.
But the hammer is an in-between weight.
And I'm paranoid about keeping my fingers attached.

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[44MAG#1]

Even with the primers being almost completely flat? Cool

the max listing for h110 w/ an 170grn is 15 grains of h110.
These mp hammers are 166 so I didn't want to use the 358311/160 load data which lists 16.5 for max.
But the hammer is an in-between weight.
And I'm paranoid about keeping my fingers attached.

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People with experience almost never use primer appearance as a pressure sign. I know I never do and I have been reloading 51 years or so. Of course, that is just me. If the cases don't show excessive pressure go for it if the load shoots well.

[1006]

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=53


15.5 is max for a Sierra 170 jacketed, and you are loading them pretty long, reducing pressure slightly.

I do not consider the primer flat until the horizontal gap between the brass and the primer is a thin line. Also, I look for for primer cratering.

[NSB]

I’ve shot over fifty deer with the .357mag revolver and none of them required going over book loads to kill them. Not a one. I’ve never lost one I shot either. Muzzle energy isn’t what kills them, it’s putting the bullet on the spot you’re aiming at. Focus on accuracy and forget about max speed, etc. I don’t shoot light loads, but bumping anything up never made a difference. The only deer I lost with a handgun was lost while shooting a full power 44mag. A bad hit is a bad hit and it can happen with any cartridge.

[FergusonTO35]

I’ve shot over fifty deer with the .357mag revolver and none of them required going over book loads to kill them. Not a one. I’ve never lost one I shot either. Muzzle energy isn’t what kills them, it’s putting the bullet on the spot you’re aiming at. Focus on accuracy and forget about max speed, etc. I don’t shoot light loads, but bumping anything up never made a difference. The only deer I lost with a handgun was lost while shooting a full power 44mag. A bad hit is a bad hit and it can happen with any cartridge.

This guy has it figured out, listen to him!

[44MAG#1]

This guy has it figured out, listen to him!

Wouldn't that be common sense? Bell used a 7X57 to kill many Elephants and farmers have used a 22RF to kill Hogs for more years than most can remember using proper shot placement.
Or so it seems to me
Not trying to be a jerk but just using common sense

[freakonaleash]

Deer are easy to kill. I have killed them with a .44 cal 1860 Army percussion gun. Round ball and 30 grains of 2ff goex. They go right down. Shoot your most accurate load, not one with the most recoil.

[zarrinvz24]

Even with the primers being almost completely flat? Cool

the max listing for h110 w/ an 170grn is 15 grains of h110.
These mp hammers are 166 so I didn't want to use the 358311/160 load data which lists 16.5 for max.
But the hammer is an in-between weight.
And I'm paranoid about keeping my fingers attached.

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The 358311 is 160 Gr. in Linotype, with Air cooled WW, sized and lubed to .3575, its very close to 165. Also, this load @ 16.5gr H110 is at 40,300 CUP. Remember the .357 was originally rated for 45000 CUP. You are loading a GP100, you should be more than fine. I shoot mine in an early 60's 6" Python. Start low and work up.

To be honest, you could load some hot .38Special's and they will be plenty effective on deer. Penetration will not be an issue, expansion will be controlled, but always placement is key.

[johnsonian09]

I'm not trying to ask about going over book.
I'm just at a point where accuracy has increased with velocity/ charge weight.

I'm new to reloading handguns and just want to make sure I'm on the right track. My book lists 15 as max and I'm using 14.8, so I'm proceeding with caution just because and checking second opinions :)

Primers looked flatter to me and the cases stuck a tiny bit when I pulled them. But I also shot some 38special that day to do a warm up before doing the accuracy tests.

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[358429]

Clean your gun and https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211222/59fd0e4f5b64d157b3d8d80d7bf5853c.jpgmake fire balls! This is h110 from a 2.25" j frame.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211222/1d2441c071b0921caf12c41f689dc64b.jpg

[megasupermagnum]

I'm not trying to ask about going over book.
I'm just at a point where accuracy has increased with velocity/ charge weight.

I'm new to reloading handguns and just want to make sure I'm on the right track. My book lists 15 as max and I'm using 14.8, so I'm proceeding with caution just because and checking second opinions :)

Primers looked flatter to me and the cases stuck a tiny bit when I pulled them. But I also shot some 38special that day to do a warm up before doing the accuracy tests.

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The reason accuracy is improving, is because you are only now just starting to get into a good range for H110. If you were loading these to a shorter length, you might be in a reasonable spot. Since you are loading these long, you are only now at a good starting load. There's nothing wrong with starting slightly lower either as you did. The problem with going "over book" in this case is who's book do you go off of? Ok, so you are shooting the MP 359 Hammer, and you say you loaded these to the GP100 cylinder length, so I'm assuming 1.650".

Quickloads should NOT be considered load data. Some people do, but I don't fully trust it. Anyway, if I plug that info into Quickloads, your load at 14.8 gr of H110 and 1.650" OAL is calculates to 22,695 PSI. That seems about right to me. If I then inch it up, I get to 17 gr, which is 105% full case, which is about the most you will be able to compress it in my experience, and that calculates 37,393 psi. I've found their velocity calculations can be off in revlovers, but they say in a 6" barrel, 14.8gr is 1194 fps, and 17 gr 1429 fps. Both those numbers look reasonably close to what I've seen in the real world.

What matters most in handguns as far as pressure is your seating depth. In your case you are using a bullet that is probably shorter OAL than the Keith bullet, and you are seating it way longer than the books. If you look in the manual you are quoting, you will see their Keith bullet data is at 1.553", which is very short. On top of that, those weights are listed with Linotype. A Keith bullet with more common alloys are usually more in the 175 gr range. All that said, I feel safe recommending you use 158 gr data. 16.7 to 17 gr is a safe max load for H110.

As for your flattened primers, you do not have flattened primers at all. If anything those deep firing pin dents indicate low pressure, which is what you actually have. Pressure signs are just that, signs. You can't trust them fully when you are working with a cartridge that is only loaded to 35,000-43,000 psi. Most real pressure signs rifle shooters know wont show up until 70,000 psi or more. Each primer you use will be unique. You will get best results with a magnum primer, either a CCI 550, or Federal 200, or Winchester SP would be good choices. These likely will never truly flatten. If you were using something like a Federal 100, then they will flatten when you creep up on that 40,000 psi area, but I wouldn't use them in this load. You are using H110. It is a slow enough powder you can not use too much to create a dangerous situation in 357 magnum.

You probably won't have to worry about what the absolute maximum load is, focus on accuracy. Ignore those naysayers that say "you don't need this", "you are wasting powder". Just load, shoot, figure out what shoots best on your own. You are probably going to find that accuracy at a slightly higher level than you are shooting now. H110 has one area it shoots good at, and it almost always is a 100% full case (to bullet base), or pretty close to that.

[243winxb]

Brass will stick in tne chamber when you reach "Hot"

I suggest trading up to at least a 44 mag.

[downzero]

H110 is NOT to be downloaded, ever, with any bullet. You're at least 2 grains, if not 3 grains shy of the book load. What reloading manual are you relying on? All of them should tell you that book loads for H110 and W296 are never to be backed off more than 3%.

[megasupermagnum]

Brass will stick in tne chamber when you reach "Hot"

I suggest trading up to at least a 44 mag.

Both points above are horrible advice.

@downzero, you clearly have not read your manuals. You will not find a load of H110 that doesn't have the starting load more than 3% below max. Most start around 15% low. A quick search through Lyman cast boolits #3 and #4, Lyman 50th, and Lee 2nd edition does not contain this supposed 3% warning. Even Hodgdon themselves does not have such a warning.

[357Mag]

johnsonian09 -

Howdy !

I'd say you are pretty close on the load, if the power is enough for your needs.

I have long used 14.5gr WW296 ( H110 same stuff ) and SP Magnum primers under Lyman SWCs of 156 - 172gr.
Shot the load in both 4, 5 and 6" "N" frames; and in a M1894SC .357Mag.

Make sure you use enough crimp, so that bullets don't migrate fwd w/ recoil; and hang-up the gun.


With regards,
357Mag

[shooter bob]

Winchester says not to reduce 296 same powder as h110 it’s in the 1 book 1 caliber .I can’t post pictures but is sure is in there

[44MAG#1]

Winchester says not to reduce 296 same powder as h110 it’s in the 1 book 1 caliber .I can’t post pictures but is sure is in there

This is like the Stopping Power threads. Go look at Hodgdons site to see H110 and W296 load data. Does not hurt to use loads reduced from full power for starting loads at all. Just dont go crazy on the reduction.

[shooter bob]

I get that it was said that the do not reduce warning was not in any manual.Take a look at hornady some of there h110 and 296 loads are way below the 3% warning .But the do not reduce warning is in print . Everyone has to do what they believe is correct

[megasupermagnum]

I get that it was said that the do not reduce warning was not in any manual.Take a look at hornady some of there h110 and 296 loads are way below the 3% warning .But the do not reduce warning is in print . Everyone has to do what they believe is correct

Do not reduce, and do not load below 3% of max are two COMPLETELY different things. Hornady especially is probably the worst. I don't know if I gave away or threw away their manual. Hornady max loads are not that far off from everyone else's starting loads.

[shooter bob]

Yes it is very confusing isn’t it.I honestly can’t remember if I have seen the 3 % warnings but do not reduce is even more restricted than 3% so it can get confusing. Any yes hornady has some very low start loads for 110/ 296

[357Mag]

All -

FWIW:

The 14.5gr WW296 and 158gr SWC w/ SP Magnum primer was the minimum charge of 296 that "Olin" used to publish in their free reloading flyer; some decades ago. It is a bona fide " Magnum " load, and that charge wt has always shot very well, for me in my guns.


With regards,
357Mag

[44MAG#1]

Do not reduce, and do not load below 3% of max are two COMPLETELY different things. Hornady especially is probably the worst. I don't know if I gave away or threw away their manual. Hornady max loads are not that far off from everyone else's starting loads.

Naturally I had to check. Taking into account the differences in "lots" of the powders Hornady and Speer used is not too much different than Hodgdons data. Keeping in mind the "lot" differences. Primer "lot" differences too enter in.

[johnsonian09]

I think were getting off course. I dont think anyone has downloaded h110. I started at minimum and made 20 rounds each of 14.3-15.5 in .2 increments. And tested each group for consistency. If experience says I can use the 358311/160 lyman data instead of the 358429/170 I'm happy too.

I was instructed 2 things about the cartridge.

1 load it like a rifle round to the end of the chamber, which I've been doing. And 2, keep going until you see either accuracy drop off/see pressure signs with your individual gun/ hit load data max for that combination of components.

I just wanted a second opinion on the headstamps as I thought flattened primers would be a pressure sign. I'm using cci 400 sr primers so I figured they wouldn't be this flat with this load unless I was doing something wrong. Which apparently is not the case.

Accuracy wise they got better between 14.5-14.8 but then I stopped as explained.
If I can go higher safely and the accuracy improves further, I will go with that loading. I'm using the cup point to strike a balance between penetration, and expansion. But I think the 160grn hollowpoint variation would be too much expansion at higher energy levels as it is pretty much a flying ash tray.

This is a the large hp at 38special levels.

And why I'm using the heavier smaller hp for the 357magnum 293520293521

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[contender1]

"I’ve shot over fifty deer with the .357mag revolver and none of them required going over book loads to kill them. Not a one. I’ve never lost one I shot either. Muzzle energy isn’t what kills them, it’s putting the bullet on the spot you’re aiming at. Focus on accuracy and forget about max speed, etc. I don’t shoot light loads, but bumping anything up never made a difference. The only deer I lost with a handgun was lost while shooting a full power 44mag. A bad hit is a bad hit and it can happen with any cartridge."

An excellent post.

Accuracy is paramount over velocity. Bullet placement,, with an accurate load will easily do the trick.

[megasupermagnum]

Naturally I had to check. Taking into account the differences in "lots" of the powders Hornady and Speer used is not too much different than Hodgdons data. Keeping in mind the "lot" differences. Primer "lot" differences too enter in.

As I said, I don't have the book anymore, but check some other calibers. The Hornady book was ok sometimes, like 309 JDJ. The vast majority makes you look at it and go... really? I think what it is, is they chose to stop at certain velocities. If they got 1300 fps with X grains of powder, they stopped there, regardless of the pressure.

[44MAG#1]

As I said, I don't have the book anymore, but check some other calibers. The Hornady book was ok sometimes, like 309 JDJ. The vast majority makes you look at it and go... really? I think what it is, is they chose to stop at certain velocities. If they got 1300 fps with X grains of powder, they stopped there, regardless of the pressure.

Different labs may do different things. That is the reason nothing is written in stone.
Since Hodgdons markets BOTH H110 and W296 I will defer to them.
Although I have many loading books.

[Larry Gibson]

I also have killed quite a few deer and other critters with the 357 Magnum, mostly in 6" barreled revolvers. I've never found any bullet more effective than the 358136 properly HP'd cast of 20-1 alloy. When pushed to 1350 - 1450 fps it is a very deadly bullets with excellent expansion and penetration, at least all that is needed for deer.

[6thtexas]

I shoot heavy loads in my Ruger Bisley. It has a long enough cylinder to seat Noe's version of the 358429 out and crimp in the crimp groove. 15.0 grains of H110 with the 358429 did not shoot as well as 15.5 grains. I get no pressure signs and the cases generally drop out of the revolver. No leading with reasonably soft lead, either. I do keep these loads marked as I do not want any run through the Model 19 I have had since the '70s.

[1006]

I got this from another site:

It should be helpful (the Hodgdon response in Yellow) to those using 296/110:

https://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/news.cgi?em=agnews1802

[Bigslug]

Johnsonian09,

I think your approach with cup points is a valid one.

Primer deformation is a bit of a variable indicator as construction of the primer cups can, well, be variable. That said, I would feel comfortable with that until I started seeing two things - 1. the flattening of the cup starting to make it all the way out to the edges of the pocket, and 2. cratering or flowing of the primer cup material creating a raised ring molded around the tip of the firing pin. If you're seeing those, you're definitely off the map where the dragons are said to be.

Soot on the outside of the cases is a sign you're not hot enough, as you haven't pressurized the brass sufficiently to seal against the chamber walls and send the crud downrange instead. If your brass is sticking, and maybe pairing with the aforementioned primer signatures, again, time to back off the throttle.

With deer and a 160 grain bullet, the quest for speed is going to be more relevant for trajectory than for humanely killing a deer. If you've got good accuracy combined with a reasonable point-blank range that doesn't require much in the way of holdover, you may be able to "git 'er dun" with significantly less flash, blast, and recoil, and a faster powder more thoroughly consumed while in the gun may be a better choice. Such is the direction my .38/.357 work is heading anyway. YMMV.

EDIT TO ADD: If you have access to a chronograph, shoot six to twelve rounds of each step in your load development and compare the results. Your ideal load will be one which both delivers consistent speeds, and delivers them as speeds not massively lower or higher than the ones above and below it. In short, this puts you on the plateaus of your pressure curve, where the tiny variations of brass thickness and a charge weight being a tenth grain off matter less.

[johnsonian09]

Bigslug - thankyou for that bit about soot on the outside of cases. Not everyone but the majority of my cases do show that.

And this confirms - I think*

megasupermagnums math as to only being 22.6k psi with my current load which use. Because I increased the OAL so much
Vs the starting load book pressure at a normal length is 33.5k psi.

I think i definitely have room to move up now.





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[str8wal]

Do not reduce, and do not load below 3% of max are two COMPLETELY different things. Hornady especially is probably the worst. I don't know if I gave away or threw away their manual. Hornady max loads are not that far off from everyone else's starting loads.

Hornady is absolutely the worst. I quit referencing their manuals and if using their bullets I look for something close and work up.

[outdoorfan]

In the gp100, I think just about any load is safe... But I digress.

16-17 grains H110 should be 100% safe and reliable for a lifetime of use, if you are up to it, imo

[Walks]

johnsonian09 -

Howdy !

I'd say you are pretty close on the load, if the power is enough for your needs.

I have long used 14.5gr WW296 ( H110 same stuff ) and SP Magnum primers under Lyman SWCs of 156 - 172gr.
Shot the load in both 4, 5 and 6" "N" frames; and in a M1894SC .357Mag.

Make sure you use enough crimp, so that bullets don't migrate fwd w/ recoil; and hang-up the gun.


With regards,
357Mag

Yep,
I've loaded the same thing for many years. Got some sitting on a shelf right now, with #358156GC. My 45yr old NM Blackhawk loves the load. Don't usually use the #358429 cause it's O.A.L. is too long for the N frames.
I reserve that bullet for .38-44 loads.

[charlie b]

I got this from another site:

It should be helpful (the Hodgdon response in Yellow) to those using 296/110:

https://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/news.cgi?em=agnews1802

Thanks for that. Much different result than we have been led to believe over the years. I wonder if that is true for many of the ball powders.

[44MAG#1]

Occam's razor principle. That is a good thing to use most of the time. All one had to do was look at Hodgdons data and the answer would have been obvious.
Or to me it would have been.

[bowfishn]

My GP100 likes 190 gr FNGC (or 180 gr HPGC) Boolits with 16 grains H110 loaded at 1.600" COAL.
Shot 100s out of both my 6" and 4.5"
Cases fall out of Cylinder
Next lot of H110 I will have to start down a couple grains and work up again, it is what you have to do when running top end loads.

[rintinglen]

I got this from another site:

It should be helpful (the Hodgdon response in Yellow) to those using 296/110:

https://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/news.cgi?em=agnews1802

With all due respect to that author, Virtually every Magnum Revolver H110/296 Load listed in Hodgdon's manual is reduced 4-12%. Most seem to have a spread of ~10%, high to low.

[megasupermagnum]

With all due respect to that author, Virtually every Magnum Revolver H110/296 Load listed in Hodgdon's manual is reduced 4-12%. Most seem to have a spread of ~10%, high to low.

What is said in that quote is not incorrect, but clearly H110 is not that bad to work with. There is published data out there with starting loads more than 20% less than max. There's no mystery, there's no secret effect of H110. It's a very slow ball powder, and if you go to low it simply wont burn. It has a relatively narrow operating window compared to a lot of other handgun powders, but it's still a smokeless propellent, nothing magical about it. None of this is directed at you or anyone, but this foolishness needs to stop. The great thing about H110 is that you really can't overload it... in cartridges it is meant for. These are of course 30 carbine, and all similar cartridges, mostly being the magnum handguns. That's the only thing that makes H110 unique, not that it is a max or nothing powder, it's that it only get in that range of pressure in a narrow range of cartridges.

[Jtarm]

My experience: in the 80s I bought the Lyman #46 manual, which advised max-only for 296.

I tried a recipe in .357 using exactly the same components listed in the manual.

The damn thing sounded like a high-powered rifle. Primers weren’t just flat, they looked like a puckered you-know-what. Extraction was OK.

I haven’t loaded magnum pistol rounds with 296 or H110 since the 90s, but after that experience, I always worked up.

[missionary5155]

We must always remember no two revolvers are exactly alike. Even our Dan Wessons with a barrel change maintaining the same barrel gap are different revolvers. Barrel diameter and smoothness all come into play.
So always work up with any powder. Just because a book says the listed max load is OK.... does not mean I will trust my future to it.

[black mamba]

Heavy for caliber bullets and substantial crimps greatly reduce the dangers of lighter than "3-5% reduced" loads. And since you need longer barrels for such a slow powder to give you any real benefit, it makes sense to use H110/296 only for the most powerful loads with the heavier bullets. Several powders in the burn rate of HS-6 to Accurate #7 will give 1350-1400 fps with 158 gr bullets in 5-6 inch barrels and can be worked up from as low as you wish. A hundred fps more or less in a handgun cartridge are virtually meaningless.

[Fishman]

Lee makes or at least made a 166 gr .358 mold. My load has been 14.5 gr H110 with a magnum primer. Somebody who owns the Lee manual might check to see if there is any data there.