Accuracy of the sharps rifles and skill of the hunters in 1874

[HighUintas]

I'm currently reading Empire of the Summer moon.

In one chapter, where one of the Comanche warrior chiefs and his band attacked a small outpost populated by buff hunters, skinners, etc there is the description of how accurate they were with their sharps rifles.

It describes them as "big fifties"...a sharps shooting a 600gr boolit, with 125gr BP.

The paragraph describing the incredible shooting is shown. Could those guys really have been that good to intentionally hit the Indians at 3/4mile? Or just luck or exaggeration of distance?
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[45workhorse]

They had plenty of targets to improve their skill, just my thoughts!

[Castaway]

HighUnitas, it is a well documented shot by a fellow named Billy Dixon at the second battle of Adobe Walls. Easy to look up and read more about it

[MichaelR]

The buffalo hunters cast their bullets over an open fire often from pure lead. Not a recipe for match grade bullets. Most of the sharps hunting bullets were about 1.1” long and very blunt. They did not weigh their powder charges, they scooped them with a measure out of a keg of powder. They they used tallow hardened in the bottom of a frying pan to make lube wads to allow multiple shots to be fired without fouling control. Their loading tools were very limited and crude compared to todays tools. My research indicates that they probably got about 4 MOA accuracy. Plenty good to be reliable to 400 yards and maybe more on buffalo. I have shot man sized targets at 1200 yards, measured. To think that a hunter using a dirty rifle to engage a man at an unknown distance around 1300 yards distance is laughable. Yes, Billy Dixon made the shot. Used a borrowed rifle that had a blade front and a rear ladder sight on the barrel. By luck he got the elevation correct but he had some help of the wind drift/spin drift problem. He shot at seven warriors seated on horses in a line giving him a lot of latitude on windage. Billy Dixon himself says it was just a lucky shot.

[sharps4590]

Wasn't Billy's shot 1538 yards...or something close to that...as supposedly surveyed by the Army?

[Wayne Smith]

The buffalo hunters cast their bullets over an open fire often from pure lead. Not a recipe for match grade bullets. Most of the sharps hunting bullets were about 1.1” long and very blunt. They did not weigh their powder charges, they scooped them with a measure out of a keg of powder. They they used tallow hardened in the bottom of a frying pan to make lube wads to allow multiple shots to be fired without fouling control. Their loading tools were very limited and crude compared to todays tools. My research indicates that they probably got about 4 MOA accuracy. Plenty good to be reliable to 400 yards and maybe more on buffalo. I have shot man sized targets at 1200 yards, measured. To think that a hunter using a dirty rifle to engage a man at an unknown distance around 1300 yards distance is laughable. Yes, Billy Dixon made the shot. Used a borrowed rifle that had a blade front and a rear ladder sight on the barrel. By luck he got the elevation correct but he had some help of the wind drift/spin drift problem. He shot at seven warriors seated on horses in a line giving him a lot of latitude on windage. Billy Dixon himself says it was just a lucky shot.

And if I remember right the hit was his third shot, not his first.

[country gent]

Long range shooting depends as much on the shooter as the rifle. Knowing the come up for a given range and reading the wind light and other conditions. I have shot to 500 yds with the old buffalo guns and with the right load they are very accurate On swinging rams the splatter spot was around 4 1/2" -5" . This was with a 45-70 BP and 535 grn bullets. I dont believe the iron sights of the period were a big hindrance. The tang mounted sight and apertures gave a long sight radius and clean view. They also may have helped focus.

I have also shot 1000 yds some with modern rounds both the service rifle and match rifle. My good NM M14 M1A o,308 1-10 twist is 1clk up at 200
3 clicks at 300, 24 clicks at 600 and 44-46 at a 1000 with a LC 862 duplication load. Even the modern load at 2650 fps with a BTHP match grade 168 grn bullet is a lot of drop. At the highest point of the bullet is around 390 inches above line of sight, and time of flight is around 1 3/4 seconds. But knowing this makes it doable.

With most rounds long range s more artillery fire dropping them in, When in the pits at 1000 yds you can see the angle when you insert the spotter into the hole.

There are groups that shoot these rifles to 1 mile which if memory serves is 1578 yards.

Shooting silhouettes is interesting in that you fire 1 -1 1/2 seconds later the ram jumps then another 1-1 1/2 secs later you her the ding of the hit.

[country gent]

Something I just remembered. We would practice for 1000 yd matches like this. ( there arnt a lot of 1000 yd ranges out there) We would use a 22 rinfire at 200 or 300 yds drop and wind are very close to a 308 at 1000. Follow thru is also very close. If you want an ideas of what long tange is shoot somegroups with a 22 at 200 or 300 yds. If memory serves most standard velocity is 20-22 mins from 50 yd zero to 200 yds I believe 300 is 42-44 mins

[Don McDowell]

Dixons shot was at 1538 yards. It was done with factory loaded ammunition. There's a pretty good case to be made it was a 44-77 or 44-90. If it was a 50 then the bullet was a 473 gr either patched or grooved. Either way Dixon said it was a scratch shot, Quanah Parker said the bullet lit short splattered some rocks into the indians pony and leg, the rider got bucked off, everybody laughed, injured warrior mounted up and they all rode off.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

There were only the big 50 2.5 at the time, no ammo was available with a 600 gr bullet or a cartridge capable of holding 125 grs of powder at the time of the fight. Pure fiction. Sharps never offered a 600 gr 50 caliber mould even. Little bit of research will shoot that fiction right in the old clod stomper. Furthermore sharps 50’s were offered with a 1-36 twist, this will not stabilize a 600+ gr bullet. As Don mentioned the 50 was designed for a 473 gr patched or grooved bullet. These old bs stories need a proper burial and put to rest.

Kenny Wasserburger

We have had one 50-90 shoot well in our mile match he ended up getting a bull barrel put on it by Shiloh because his 650 bullets and the charge he used were too much recoil for a string of shots. Oh and a 1-26 twist too.

Oh btw a mile is 1760 yards 5280 feet.

[Lead pot]

I shot a .50-2.5 for many years at the Gong shoots ranging out to 1000 yards and it does very well at extended ranges.
My .50 is a Shiloh and it has a 1/22 twist with a 34" barrel, it's a 13# rifle and it will put lead splatters in the white spot or close to it at 1000 yards and I think the buffalo at Raton is 1100 or 1200 yards and I put spots in the white using the .50. But I use a 710 gr bullet with 115 gr of 2E powder and it does well.
But like mentioned before with the slow twist toe original Sharps had a 600 gr bullet won't hold accuracy out as far as the Dixon shot was fired. It will reach that distance but it would be hard to say where it will hit.
I tried a 1.4" long bullet in my .50 that weighs 650 gr and it does fine at hunting distances but it will kick up dust around a 1K target with occasional hits in my 22 ROT rifle.
That iron buffalo in the picture is full sized and I shot it at 1585 yards using my hunting rifle a 1/19 twist Shiloh .44-77 using a 1.325" long 485 gr PP bullet of the original Sharps profile.
using the Lawrence rear barrel sight and blade front sight and it connected in a fair wind that I had to hold off two targets to hit it. That buff was only 200 yards short of a mile so I have no doubt in my mind if Billy had his own rifle he would have no trouble connecting at the range he shot if he had made long shots in the past and knew where to move that slide on his rear sight. I sure would not stand out in the open with a feller using a sharps at that range.
These rifles loaded with black powder and lead bullets do just fine at extended ranges at 1285 fps my Sharps will push that 710 gr bullet. You don't need that Magnum mentality to hit a target at 1K.


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[Castaway]

Kenny, are saying the Dixon shot didn’t happen?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Yes Dixon made the shot, wasn’t with any 600 gr bullets 50 or what ever caliber.

Perhaps reading comprehension is your strong suit, no where in my post do I refute that.

I simply said that book quoted is pure fluff fantasy about 600 gr bullets and 125 grs of powder. No one made a 50 call mould at that time with a 600 gr wt.

I have Dixon’s book he made the shot, I tend to agree with Don was done probably with a 44 caliber sharps.

Sharps own catalog stated the 45s did better work at 1000 yards then the 50 Did at 600. Past few years in business, Sharps only made 50s on special order.

The Buffalo at Raton is 1123 yards

[Lead pot]

Thank you. I knew it was more than 1100 yds but it's been a while.
My .50-2.5" Bell cases will hold 121 grains of 1.5 powder flush with the case mouth. Now I don't have any idea what a balloon head case would hold but with any sort of wad stack and seating the bullet I think 125 grains would be ?????

I have read an interview with Billy Dixons Wife, I think her name was Olive, and she said that Billy himself told her that he thought the shot was a lot less in distance than they gave him credit for.
I stopped at the site where the shot was made and looked at the bute and to me it did not look like 3/4 of a mile away and if they sat on horse back I think they would have been out of site on top of that bute.
But the place is all fenced off so it's hard to know exactly where he shot from.

[HighUintas]

I was thinking there had to be some fluff in that paragraph. The paragraph wasn't even about Dixon's shot, though. They go on to mention that a couple of pages later, but if course make it sound like he just picked up a buddy's rifle and drilled a guy at 1538, first round.

[Gavetta]

shot 1000yds at lodi wisconsin.practice was 200yds at nicolet rifle club wih 22 rimfire.bet boots obermeyer at his peak could make billys shot.saludos a todo y feliz navidad.

[John Boy]

If you want a challenge, shoot a target at 1000 yds on a hot windy day with a 38-50 black powder reload using a 325gr Ideal 375166.
All of one’s shooting knowledge has to be used and expect many ‘fliers’ off target trying to get to the target and even worse getting into the 10 ring ….

[Lead pot]

If you want a challenge, shoot a target at 1000 yds on a hot windy day with a 38-50 black powder reload using a 325gr Ideal 375166.
All of one’s shooting knowledge has to be used and expect many ‘fliers’ off target trying to get to the target and even worse getting into the 10 ring ….

I'm having a Hepburn build right now in a .38-50 to find out just that John. :D

[missionary5155]

If I remember did not Dixon fire at a group of Indians on the ridge. Does any account read that he actually fired at a specific person?

[John Boy]

Kurt, the 38-50 is a typo … should be 38-55
Good luck with your 38-50 build

I spent one complete afternoon at Ridgway trying to put lead on Homer with H&R 38-55 with an accurate Green Mountain barrel and 42grs of FFg. After a good trajectory, many were dancing around Homer. After correcting windage and mirage several times … was proud of what a 38-55 can do. Even had one center hit

Be sure to order the Accurate mold that Tom cloned for me, the Ideal 375166. It’s the only bullet for my 38’s
It calculates a 4 stability with a 12-18 twist

[MichaelR]

Missionary
Yes, he shot at a group of 7 mounted warriors. I also read an account that there’s a rock outcrop on the bluff that they shot at betting who could hit it, which accounts for having an elevation setting for the sights. Still a very lucky shot even for a skilled shooter.

[Lead pot]

TNX. John. I will check the mould but I will most likely never shoot a GG in this rifle.
hope to take some shots at Homer at Ridgeway with you some time.

[Lead pot]

John.

That is a good bullet design.
I use the 457-121 that is just like it for the 95 Marlin .45-70. I had tom clone it so it's the proper size for the .45-70 diameter.

I hope someday Tom will make an elliptical with a ball nose. I have several of his moulds in brass and iron for the lever rifles.
Very good quality moulds.

[Rany A]

The buffalo hunters cast their bullets over an open fire often from pure lead. Not a recipe for match grade bullets. Most of the sharps hunting bullets were about 1.1” long and very blunt. They did not weigh their powder charges, they scooped them with a measure out of a keg of powder. They they used tallow hardened in the bottom of a frying pan to make lube wads to allow multiple shots to be fired without fouling control. Their loading tools were very limited and crude compared to todays tools. My research indicates that they probably got about 4 MOA accuracy. Plenty good to be reliable to 400 yards and maybe more on buffalo. I have shot man sized targets at 1200 yards, measured. To think that a hunter using a dirty rifle to engage a man at an unknown distance around 1300 yards distance is laughable. Yes, Billy Dixon made the shot. Used a borrowed rifle that had a blade front and a rear ladder sight on the barrel. By luck he got the elevation correct but he had some help of the wind drift/spin drift problem. He shot at seven warriors seated on horses in a line giving him a lot of latitude on windage. Billy Dixon himself says it was just a lucky shot.

I would have to disagree with some of this. First off none of this is rocket science. Black powder cartridge rifles are very forgiving about varying bullet weights and powder charges with little or no effects on “very good” accuracy. You can’t compare them side to side with smokeless. For example you can take a batch of bullets with a 3 grain spread, use a homemade powder scoop (which is more accurate than you give credit), load 10 rounds and have them shoots 10 shot 3/4” group at 100yds. I know because I’ve seen it done.

Now I shoot 40-65 and 38-55 mostly but load quite a bit of 45-70 for friends. I prefer better quality control than that, but I do know a couple folks that are regularly in the winner circles who do not waste much time with those details. I think the big difference is people like us do this for fun, Buffalo hunters did it to make a living, they learned what worked and what didn’t.

[MichaelR]

Randy
If it’s your assertion that even ammunition loaded under such primitive conditions should be more accurate than 4 MOA, I would have to agree. But even quality ammunition is only part of the equation for good accuracy. The vast majority of BPCR shooters today are target shooters and if you shot the buffalo hunters ammunition using fouling management for each shot, I am sure that the accuracy would be closer to 2 MOA. But the buffalo hunters did not use blow tubes or wipe for each shot. I do not know how many shots they expected to be able make before accuracy suffered enough to warrant cleaning the bore but my experience with modern powders is about 17 before the barrel fouls out. Starting with a clean barrel, the first 3 to 5 shots are normally under 2 MOA but start to open up after that. I expect my hunting loads to make 2 1/2 MOA at 350 yards for 10 shots but if I try to fire more from the fouled bore the groups open up.

[sharps4590]

Yes, 1 mile is 1760 yards.

I have a Shiloh, #1 Sporter in cal. 40-70. I have, on very good days when all the red gods were smiling on me and my eyes were working good, shot MOA out to 600 yards with it. That isn't every group but that rifle is quite consistent...if only the shooter were, day to day.

It's great fun and a great education to shoot those distances with those rifles. Just wish I still had my two 500 yard ranges out my back door....

[John in PA]

I just gotta say, that highly-figured buttstock looks good enough to eat!! Absolutely gorgeous!!

[Lead pot]

John,

If your talking about the rifle on post 11, thank you, it's my favorite rifle and caliber.

Kurt

[indian joe]

Yes, 1 mile is 1760 yards.

I have a Shiloh, #1 Sporter in cal. 40-70. I have, on very good days when all the red gods were smiling on me and my eyes were working good, shot MOA out to 600 yards with it. That isn't every group but that rifle is quite consistent...if only the shooter were, day to day.

It's great fun and a great education to shoot those distances with those rifles. Just wish I still had my two 500 yard ranges out my back door....

I dont think the rifle's ability to group at long range is the primary problem - these ultra long range shots are lob shots - kinda like calling in mortar fire - you fellers have done the math - without the ability to accurately estimate range down to ten yards or so - a first shot hit is gonna be an absolute fluke at 1550 yards - and if you cant see the fall of shot to walk it in good luck gettin there at all.

[omgb]

Kenny is correct, the author is spinning fiction. I am a history teacher with an emphasis on mid to late 18th century American west. I'm also the owner of a Sharps and several of the big 1886 lever gun. There were no Sharps chambered for .50 cal using 125 grain charges in use during the buffalo hunting periods. Maybe a 50-70 Trapdoor or two, but certainly no big 50s. My research tells me the buffalo hunters were good shots but not necessarily "marksmen" as the term is used today. Any man who uses the same gun every day for any long period of time, will get to know that gun quite well. As a result, his accuracy will go up but given the guns, the cartridges and the sights available to men out west in the time period in question... well, they might not make the qualifying rounds at Quiggly. Billy Dixon made one heck of a shot that day at Adobe Walls, but it was not the calculated shot of a schooled sniper but the luck shot fired in defiant frustration by a man with excellent shooting skills. Even Dixon himself said it was a lucky shot. So, the book is historically inaccurate and uses melodramatic myth to spin a good yarn.

[FLINTNFIRE]

In reading on it I have seen where Sharps loaded 100 grains of powder in what is referred to as the 50-90 , but some of those men and women of that era were quite the shots , as to those hunters being whatever a marksman is today , in the trade they were in they did a lot of shooting and probably were better then some who pride themselves on their abilities today .

The one shooting feat that tends to put some things in perspective is the Farr story with the open sights on a 1903 .

And remember there were those long range teams that were still shooting the muzzle loaders remember Creedmoor .

[Don McDowell]

Interesting that when the NY Rifle Club answered the challenge from the Irish and British Rifle teams, there was no shooters on the east coast that had much of any experience in long range shooting. They and the NRA came west and tried their best to recruit shooters from the Hide trade, not a one of them was interested and stayed on the plains until they either went broke or quit to go on to do something else.
Remington and Sharps pooled together, built special rifles and ammunition and started outfitting and training shooters for the match. The teams from across the Atlantic showed up with their muzzleloaders, some took the US made rifles home with them that time, and by the end of the "Creedmoor" era very few were shooting muzzle loaders, and gun builders such as Rigby were franticly trying to replicate the rifles of the American team that were so handily winning the matches.
In todays world of shooting it's amazing how few shooters are taught to shoot with irons, and now there's a multimillion dollar industry built around a shooting venue, where actual field positions are not used, and the rifles are equipped with telescopic sights that do about 90% of the work for the shooter. When is the last time one of the "hunters" on the cable infomercial channels actually shot a game animal with a hand carried adjustable tripod, instead of from the sitting, kneeling or prone postition, or using a field position?
A lot of myth's just seem to live on and on and on.....

[Lead pot]

Heck Don. I was watching the outdoor channel and they even use a lead sled hunting.

[Don McDowell]

Yup they even have lead sled type things mounted on a swiveling seat..

[dverna]

I dont think the rifle's ability to group at long range is the primary problem - these ultra long range shots are lob shots - kinda like calling in mortar fire - you fellers have done the math - without the ability to accurately estimate range down to ten yards or so - a first shot hit is gonna be an absolute fluke at 1550 yards - and if you cant see the fall of shot to walk it in good luck gettin there at all.

Shame on you!!! Letting "the science and data" get in the way of a good story.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

These reproduction rifles you serious BP shooters prefer have a steep buy in. The league of distinguished gentleman and their rifles....
Would love to attend a match and watch the goings on.

[Don McDowell]

These reproduction rifles you serious BP shooters prefer have a steep buy in. The league of distinguished gentleman and their rifles....
Would love to attend a match and watch the goings on.
I sort of chuckle when some one says something like this. For less than the cost of the scopes PRC shooters are putting on 4000$ rifles you can have a Shiloh or CSA ready to go.

[Gunlaker]

I sort of chuckle when some one says something like this. For less than the cost of the scopes PRC shooters are putting on 4000$ rifles you can have a Shiloh or CSA ready to go.

It's not cheap to shoot BPTR/BPCR but you are right, some of the modern competition is very spendy. I've talked to PRC guys who swap out those super expensive scopes every year just in case the tracking has a little wear. And not to mention the constant rebarreling.

I think that most competition is pretty expensive, but you can definitely buy a super competitive Shiloh with sights for a lot less than what some of these bolt gun setups go for. And that rifle will probably last the rest of your life while only costing a few firing pins and maybe a lever spring.

For me the cost of BPTR actually comes down to traveling money. The big American matches I've been to have cost be between $1000 to $2000 apiece depending on distance. That's not too cheap!

Chris.

[sharps4590]

As a late friend of mine said 40 some years ago, "There isn't a match that can't be bought." It should be obvious that isn't 100% true, 100% of the time but, it ain't far from the truth.

It was fun while it lasted but I'm glad my match days are over.

[dverna]

I sort of chuckle when some one says something like this. For less than the cost of the scopes PRC shooters are putting on 4000$ rifles you can have a Shiloh or CSA ready to go.

I cannot think of a cheap way to compete in any shooting sport. Maybe Air Rifle/Pistol. $5000 should get you the very best in those games. RWS R-10 Match Plus pellets about $50/500.

Then there is the travel to matches...food, lodging, fuel. Match fees. Travel gets expensive.

When I shot Trap I had over $20k in guns. A day of 300 targets was about $100 for match fees and add 12 boxes of shells...another $60 even if with reloads.

Shooting leagues at least keeps you local and fees are minimal.

[Don McDowell]

Absolutely competitive shooting is not a cheap thing
I have a trap shotgun that cost me pretty close to what most of my Shilohs with the sight cost
A tricked out comp ready 1911 will run dang near what a shiloh cost and then after you add the red dots and the rest of the gear ...
The cost of some going to some matches can be quite high so I usually figure the cost of going staying and divide by the number of rounds for score, but some matches there can be some tourists stuff along the way to help justify the cost
But it still beats 5 grand to go sit on a beach with 1000 other people for 3 days lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[indian joe]

Interesting that when the NY Rifle Club answered the challenge from the Irish and British Rifle teams, there was no shooters on the east coast that had much of any experience in long range shooting. They and the NRA came west and tried their best to recruit shooters from the Hide trade, not a one of them was interested and stayed on the plains until they either went broke or quit to go on to do something else.
Remington and Sharps pooled together, built special rifles and ammunition and started outfitting and training shooters for the match. The teams from across the Atlantic showed up with their muzzleloaders, some took the US made rifles home with them that time, and by the end of the "Creedmoor" era very few were shooting muzzle loaders, and gun builders such as Rigby were franticly trying to replicate the rifles of the American team that were so handily winning the matches.
In todays world of shooting it's amazing how few shooters are taught to shoot with irons, and now there's a multimillion dollar industry built around a shooting venue, where actual field positions are not used, and the rifles are equipped with telescopic sights that do about 90% of the work for the shooter. When is the last time one of the "hunters" on the cable infomercial channels actually shot a game animal with a hand carried adjustable tripod, instead of from the sitting, kneeling or prone postition, or using a field position?
A lot of myth's just seem to live on and on and on.....

I was one of them never taught to shoot iron sights - my people were shotgunners, me dad was a handy B grader and collected a good number of single barrel trophys - mum made the ladies team in trap for the oceania games - none of which helped me at all - that game was way too expensive for me even if I had liked it .
I was 41 when I went off on my blackpowder / muzzleloader trip. Had shot scope sighted rifles for anything serious and wasted a lot of ammo trying to learn tricks with open sighted lever guns - I bought Sam Fadalas blackpowder handbook and there it was in black and white - this is so simple why didnt someone tell me ! My eyes were never the best and all that time I blamed poor eyesight for all the other stuff I was doing wrong. I am 73 and dont burn enough powder these days, can still shoot iron sights better than when I was 25 - that is a dad gum shame I reckon!!!!!!!!

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I sort of chuckle when some one says something like this. For less than the cost of the scopes PRC shooters are putting on 4000$ rifles you can have a Shiloh or CSA ready to go.

I shot for years in IDPA and USPSA using iron sighted pistol without compensators, not terribly expensive and little need to travel overnight. And yes, if I put off a couple of my typical gun purchases I could afford a nice rolling block or trapdoor, they are just more than I usually spend at one time. Did not mean to be critical.

[country gent]

At one time DCM CMP matches could be shot fairly reasonable. rifles were supplied ammo supplied was like $25.00 to enter. But those days are over. I started ISPC with stock guns and Bowling pins. Then moved to High power rifle matches.When the MS got worse moved to BPCR silhouette local only. Competing is expensive I was lucky in most of the "tricks and Tune ups " I could do myself. This saved some.

A good example of the competitor mindset now is the garand matches, supposed to be a rack grade gun right. but competitors will swap barrels trigger groupsparts and stocks to get the best performing they can. All rack grade parts but far from rack grade. M1As were the same lugs welded on gas systems unitized bolted in the stocks heavy stocks. ARs also have a lot of mods to be "competitive" The small bore matches now are even worse a expensive rifle and scope just to start. testing high dollar ammo .

While a lot try to buy the matches there does have to be some skill and knowledge with the shooter also. We have all seen the shooters who do well with whatever is put in their hands. These people are hard to beat.

Another good example is the Pedersoli line of rifles. Not to long ago they were around $1000.00 a little under when on sale ( I bought mine around 2003 for 899.00 on sale at cabellas). Now with the good reviews and reputation they are getting close to a CSA or Shiloh Sharps in price.

[Don McDowell]

I shot for years in IDPA and USPSA using iron sighted pistol without compensators, not terribly expensive and little need to travel overnight. And yes, if I put off a couple of my typical gun purchases I could afford a nice rolling block or trapdoor, they are just more than I usually spend at one time. Did not mean to be critical.

Certainly no offense taken by me.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

In reading on it I have seen where Sharps loaded 100 grains of powder in what is referred to as the 50-90 , but some of those men and women of that era were quite the shots , as to those hunters being whatever a marksman is today , in the trade they were in they did a lot of shooting and probably were better then some who pride themselves on their abilities today .

The one shooting feat that tends to put some things in perspective is the Farr story with the open sights on a 1903 .

And remember there were those long range teams that were still shooting the muzzle loaders remember Creedmoor .

Yes they did with a 473 gr pp bullet. Not the fluff fantasy crap in this book.

Kenny Wasserburger

[R-71]

I have read that the 473 PP bullet was loaded for Sharps with 100 grains of powder and the GG bullet with 90 grains. I've tried some 485 grain PP bullets in my Modern made C. Sharps and the shoot quite a bit higher at 200 yards than my usual 600 Grain bullet.

The accounts of I've read of the Dixon shot was that he lost his personal rifle in a river while making his way back to Adobe walls. He purchased a new rifle but that was in different building which he couldn't get to and borrowed the 50 that he used for the remainder of the battle.

I use a Lawrence rear sight on my 50 and the 200 & 300 yard leaf is nearly dead on at those ranges shooting just a little high using a 6 o'clock hold.

[hawkenhunter50]

Whether or not the stories and claims are true, I couldn't say. But I am glad the stories are out there to interest whoever reads them. Without stories like this to get people interested, we may not have all the current black powder guns and equipment available that we have today. But I do believe that these shots could have been made. Some of those professional hunters probably made more shots in 1 day than some do in a week or a month of shooting. I would think that they would have been some riflemen.

[HighUintas]

Whether or not the stories and claims are true, I couldn't say. But I am glad the stories are out there to interest whoever reads them. Without stories like this to get people interested, we may not have all the current black powder guns and equipment available that we have today. But I do believe that these shots could have been made. Some of those professional hunters probably made more shots in 1 day than some do in a week or a month of shooting. I would think that they would have been some riflemen.

Very, very true. Thanks for that thought! It is inspring and certainly something fun to dream about doing. And yes, regardless of equipment quality I bet they were really good. Shooting 3000+ buff in a month? That is a lot of shooting.

[17nut]

Things might seem further away than they really are with no guides for reference.
And fish and game killed by your grandfather was way bigger than they are now;-)

Take the "famous" Quigley down under shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB1xlpxOQNs

Not as far as you thought!

[Dave T]

That same year (1874) or maybe the next a US Army Survey team measured the distance from the Adobe Walls building where Dixon fired his shot to the top of the bluff where the Indian was knocked from his horse as being 1538 yards or 7/8 of a mile. A paper published in 1988 titled "A Trajectory Analysis of Billy Dixon's Long Shot" did a topographical analysis of the features (historic marker for the building and the top of the ridge line) and came up with what they called "essentially the same distance", 1538 yards.

Dixon lost his beloved Big 50 Sharps (which was introduced in 1872 in the new Sharps cartridge rifle that would later be called the Model of 1874) while on his way to Adobe Walls with a wagon load of hides and his equipment. The wagon turned over crossing a river and he lost everything. When he got to the trading post and tried to buy another 50 2-1/2" Sharps Straight (the name Sharps gave the "Big 50") the Adobe Walls trading post didn't have one. The most powerful gun they had was a 44-90 so he bought that and a case of ammunition. When the Indians attacked Dixon was in one building and his case of ammo was in another. Once he expended the 44-90 ammunition he had with him he was out of business until another man handed Dixon his own Big 50 saying Billy was a better shot than he was. That borrowed gun, a model and caliber Dixon was very familiar with, was the rifle with which he made the so called Mile Long Shot - as explained above actually 7/8s of a mile.

Dave

PS: Dixon always claimed it was a scratch shot, i.e. just lucky.

[fiberoptik]

https://powderburns.tripod.com/sharps.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigslug]

The buffalo hunters cast their bullets over an open fire often from pure lead. Not a recipe for match grade bullets. Most of the sharps hunting bullets were about 1.1” long and very blunt. They did not weigh their powder charges, they scooped them with a measure out of a keg of powder. They they used tallow hardened in the bottom of a frying pan to make lube wads to allow multiple shots to be fired without fouling control. Their loading tools were very limited and crude compared to todays tools. My research indicates that they probably got about 4 MOA accuracy. Plenty good to be reliable to 400 yards and maybe more on buffalo. I have shot man sized targets at 1200 yards, measured. To think that a hunter using a dirty rifle to engage a man at an unknown distance around 1300 yards distance is laughable. Yes, Billy Dixon made the shot. Used a borrowed rifle that had a blade front and a rear ladder sight on the barrel. By luck he got the elevation correct but he had some help of the wind drift/spin drift problem. He shot at seven warriors seated on horses in a line giving him a lot of latitude on windage. Billy Dixon himself says it was just a lucky shot.

One thing we must remember about these old cartridges is that, by modern standards, they were BIG. These were not little .22 Hornets that you had to sweat the uniformity of your powder charges or bullet weights in tenths of grains. Being "a little bit off" in whatever you used for powder measuring, or in your standards for a "perfect" bullet would make for a lower percentage of deviation from the ideal round than it would in our modern descendants of the 7x57 and .300 H&H.

Given that Dixon was using a borrowed gun, and likely gave it back shortly thereafter, odds of even him properly recalling what the caliber was seem pretty slim. Assuming a 4MOA combo of gun and ammo, that's a potential for 60 inch groups at 1500 yards. Even if we double that, the bullet is still crossing SOMEWHERE through a ten foot circle, which is roughly the height/width dimensions of a guy on a horse. While the rate of fire is obviously lower, this isn't any different a problem than that faced by machine gunners in WWI - they knew there bullets were going to beat up a given area, and it made for an effective solution.

A. I don't see anything impossible about Dixon's shot.

B. The odds of connecting are not so slim that it wouldn't be foolish to take a poke at a bunch of guys who came to kill you. Keeps 'em honest, if nothing else.

[Jeff Michel]

In the immortal words of General John Sedgwick. "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." I have to believe that it is best not to underestimate a large lead bullet at extended ranges. Happy New Year to all!

[Dutchman]

The Buffalo Harvest by Frank Mayer (my favorite)

https://www.amazon.com/buffalo-harvest-Frank-H-Mayer/dp/1877704199/ref=sr_1_1?crid=252S2M08VZHO6&keywords=the+buffalo+harvest&qid=1641702591&sprefix=the+buffalo+harvest%2Caps%2C185&sr=8-1


In Search of the Buffalo by Charles Anderson

https://www.amazon.com/SEARCH-BUFFALO-Story-Wright-Mooar/dp/B002MZNYF4/ref=sr_1_1?crid=C7FRXWNQJXN5&keywords=in+search+of+the+buffalo+anderson&qid=1641702679&sprefix=in+search+of+the+buffalo+anderson%2Caps%2C 180&sr=8-1

[toot]

they must have acquired the skill by the thousands of them that they slaughtered.

[Bent Ramrod]

That was it. They liked to shoot, after the Civil War they were bored with the farm or the clerk’s job and up for anything that seemed like an adventure, and they learned by doing.

I forget the reference, but the author mentioned that the “true sportsmen” and the market hunters of the time were truly fantastic shots, but their learning curve was, admittedly, “hard on the game.” Probably the understatement of the 19th Century.

[KCSO]

As an experiment I cast and loaded ammo in camp over the campfire for my 45-100 Sharps. I used an old Ideal tool to seat primers and a copy of a military loading kit. I then shot the rifle for groups with loads I had done at hoe with all the bells and whistles. The campfire groups ran 2-3 inches larger than the shop made ammo out to 300 yards. For example at 100 yards my campfire groups were 3-4 inches and the home loads were on average 1 1/2 inches. If you really want to know how good the Sharps was just read the match results from the 1870's. There it is in black and white at 1000 yards a 3foot group would have beem a winner and Billy Dixon himself said the hit was a lucky shot.

[country gent]

The way a market hunter got paid was thru the hides and meat for towns forts and such. So if he wanted paid he had to "put hides and meat" in the wagon. This was a business more so than hunting. repetition and practice whether in the job or at home speeds up improves the performance.

You still see this in factories today, the new worker on the line needs help the first week or two, then he can keep up but struggles, then hes able to do other small things like take a drink or talk to someone while working and then he reading a book between parts. the repetition and repeated movements take over and he can do his job even faster. These old hunters were just doing what they had learned and practiced for years.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Adobe Walls is the name of the place were buffalo hunters and the Indians clashed. The hunters were deep into Indian territory where they were told not to go. I believe Bat Masterson was among the group of hunters. Elmer Keith said in his book that he had gone to visit Billy Dixon's widow and had bought Billy's rifle. I don't remember if he mentioned the caliber or not and I no longer have Ketih's book. One of my biggest regrets is not buying an old Remington hunting rifle. It was well used but not rusty and had a heavy octagon barrel marked 44 cal. The man was asking a big 40 bucks for it. I was not into single shot rifles at that time. I think it was around 1971.

[Don McDowell]

If someone would come up with a "round barreled 44" as Dixon described his rifle, that could show provenance to that fight, it would be worth a fortune.

[Tom Trevor]

Don, Or the scope sighted Sharps 45.2.1 First sergeant Ryan used at the battle of the little big horn? he auctioned it off to his company as he left service the buyer had sold it on and did not know where it went or serial number as he tried a few years later to get it back.

[Don McDowell]

Tom both rifles probably ended being turned into 219 zippers or such and the barrels used for tomato stakes..

[Don McDowell]

One thing did shine thru this year tho, they did finally recover Jim Bakers real rifle, and not the fakes so many tried to pass off as the real thing.