.30-06 size .309 or .311?

[fn1889m]

I have a Japanese made browning 1885 hi-wall in 30-06. This is a scoped rifle, with a 28 inch barrel on the medium+ weight side. I don’t hunt.

For target shooting cast bullets, would this be .309 or .311?

[Thumbcocker]

I use .311 in U.S. made SAAMI spec rifles. Assuming they chamber i would start there. Then experiment as I went along. The critical dimension is the throat.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Winger Ed.]

You'll need to see which one your rifle likes better.
I size & gas check a 170 RN and a 190 silhouette at .309 and it works good for me.
Your mileage may vary.

[RickinTN]

You need to see which one your rifle will take. If it has a .310' neck then .311" is out. I have several 30 caliber rifles whose necks measure just over .310".
A plain based bullet inserted in a cartridge OAL gauge backward will tell the story. You need a diameter small enough that the bullet will reah the throat of your chamber. You can use a jacketed bullet for such measurement but be sure to take into account the radius of the base of the bullet. A boattail bullet will not work for this.
Rick

[fn1889m]

Thanks. I will measure the base of my jacketed bullets. Q: if I bought a .311 dia mold could I use it for both, sizing down to .309 if needed?

[RickinTN]

The base of your jacketed bullets should be .308". I misspoke on using them for the measurement. Yes a .311" mold can be used for both. The it will depend on which sizer you use.
Rick

[Larry Gibson]

I have a Japanese made browning 1885 hi-wall in 30-06. This is a scoped rifle, with a 28 inch barrel on the medium+ weight side. I don’t hunt.

For target shooting cast bullets, would this be .309 or .311?

It's generally best to size the bullet to fit the throat of the rifle's chamber. You'll need to make a chamber cast or do a pound cast. Do a search as there are multiple threads that cover how to. Some will make it sound very complicated and difficult, but a simple cast of paraffin wax will be sufficient.

[Char-Gar]

If I had to choose between .309 and .311, I would choose .311. That said .0005 under throat diameter will give the best accuracy all things being equal with they never are.

[ShooterAZ]

The only 30 Cal that I size to .309 is for the 30 Carbine. Everything else 30 Cal gets sized to .310 or .311 depending on the rifle and boolit. Mostly .311 though.

[fn1889m]

Thank you for the replies. What I am getting from y’all is that it is about the throat and lead, and not the lands and groves. If those chamber easily at a good COAL it’s the right place to be? For that one rifle.

[charlie b]

Yes, about the throat. The COAL is different depending on the bullet. I like a bore riding design so the dia of the nose is critical as well. For those that are not bore riding I like a slight jam fit when chambered.

I have a .309 sizer die and the finished bullets have a dia of .310. They work in my bolt .308 and my Garand.

And, yes, you should get a .311 mold so you can size down to whatever you need. Keep in mind if you decide to use surplus rifles you may need bigger dia.

[dale2242]

All my 30 caliber cast bullets get sized .309.
I use 50/50 alox lube.
I have never had a leading issue at this diameter.
Accuracy has been good.

[mehavey]

0.309"
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218995-3-4-quot-group-311299-in-30-06!&p=2466518&viewfull=1#post2466518
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6790011&postcount=8

[smithnframe]

Slug the barrel!

[Char-Gar]

Slug the barrel!

Lord have mercy! Have we learned nothing just repeating ancient and long discredited myths. The barrel groove diameter is an irrelevant number. It is all about the throat diameter.

[waksupi]

Slug the barrel!

And the winner is......

[fn1889m]

Thank you for the replies. It’s getting complicated and I am not there. At this point I am just trying to figure out what mould to buy. For THIS rifle. I am sure that things will evolve. Don’t need to know the ending yet. Just the beginning. So for this rifle I will buy a .311 dia pointed mould, 168-172 gn. The only issue is whether to size at .311 or .309. The target will talk to me first.

I still consider myself a novice at casting. Up to now it’s just been tumble lubed revolver bullets. My process is conservative, my tools are simple. I just wondered if there was a universal standard dia for .30-06 or each rifle was different. I have an FN .308 with a 20 inch barrel that may be different from the 1885. But this is my first jump into making rifle bullets. Keeping it simple and fun.

[El Bibliotecario]

Having read the best sizing is no sizing--which must be true since I read it on the Internet-- I use a Lee .309 165 grain gas check bullet cast from Linotype, sized in a .311 die, which produces a lubricated unsized .309 bullet. Using a moderate charge of 2400 powder this bullet gives acceptable accuracy at 100-150 yards and does not lead in my M1903 and M1903A3 rifles.

[Mk42gunner]

Since you haven't bought a mold yet, here is my less expensive option. Get the Lee 312-185 for about $25 these days. Hornady .30 cal gas checks and a decent lube. I use FWFL, it hasn't let me down yet.

I got my Lee mold several years ago when they where commonly undersized, mine drops ACWW @ 0.3127". This lets me size it down to 0.311" without too much distortion. This size works in all of my .30 caliber rifles, although the ones I shoot cast in are all milsurps or .30-30's.

For just plinking and paper punching, 2400 or Red Dot work well.

Good Luck,

Robert

[gpidaho]

fn1889m: Here's an easy way to get a start. Fire a factory round and measure the inside diameter of the neck of the fired round. As the neck of the case shrinks a bit after firing for extraction you should be able to safely load a cast bullet to the I.D. of the fired case. Now in some rifles depending on bullet design and C.O.L. the round may or may not chamber. Make a dummy round and try. At least you'll know the largest diameter you can size your bullet to fit the chamber in the neck area. Gp

[mto7464]

I reamed my Lee out to .3095. Seemed to help over the .309 in my application in a K31 .311 was not an option is this rifle. So you will need to find out for yourself too.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Look at Lyman mould 311299 GC it is a 205 gr Gas Checked Boolit that is also a "Bore Rider". Meaning that the nose section of the boolit rides on the lands of the rifling or the bore.

Typically the bore of a .30 cal. rifle is .300 and grooves are .308 or .004 per side. The Bore Rider design aligns the boolit with the bore and the Groove Diameter portion serves to seal the rifling from blow by, and the Gas Check makes sure it is sealed.

As far as sizing? The gas check will seal the bore on a .308/9/10/11 boolit just fine and will eliminate any barrel leading you gun may be prone to when using plain based boolits. Also even with sizing at .311 you are only getting .0015 per side of sizing when entering the rifling.

These work well in my .30-06 and .308 rifles. A good all around .30 caliber Cast Boolit.
In the pic below you will see L-R Lyman 311041 GC for .30-30, 311299 GC, and Lee .309-190 GC. All of these boolits have proven Accurate in my guns over the years. I also have a Lee 309-150CG which is just a shorter version of the other Lee Boolit. It is also a Bore Rider Design.

I also have a 314299GC which is used in .303 British Enfield Rifles, and I shot my best Short Range Silhouette Score of 32/40 with mine using that boolit. It is the same boolit with a slightly bigger base.

Randy

[charlie b]

If you want to try some before you buy them try these guys.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product-category/rifle/?filter_caliber=308

I did that when starting casting for my .308. Started with the RCBS 165sil and Lyman 311299. Both shot really well, ie, less than 1.5" at 100yd with no load development (4198 and 4895 were used).

[fn1889m]

Well I hope you all forgive me. I bought a new (fingers crossed) Lyman 311467 mould and the Lee .311 sizing die. The mould is listed at 177 gn. I have some Lyman #2 I will add to my softer scrap lead, by non scientific guesstimate. The lube grooves look like tumble lube grooves, which is how I lube revolver bullets. I will try it. If it sizes to 311 I will try it without gas checks first, at a slower velocity. But will order gas checks.

Not the best shot in the room. But don’t laugh until you see the target. And in any event, I will start casting rifle bullets for my 1885.

Photo for illustrative purposes:
293335

[mehavey]

1. Those are standard lube grooves -- not-to-worry :-P
2. I highly recommend you stick w/ your ALOX use
3. With ALOX and rifles, you do not have to have "fully-filled" grooves.
In fact (when I use it ) I just put some full strength on my thumb/forefinger
and rotate the bullet between them -- usually 2-4 bullets per finger-full, and
with only "some" in the grooves as filled grooves don't really play.
ALOX is a surface lube

4. Throw them into a slightly-warm (225) oven standing up on a plate for 2 hours
and when dry next day -- shoot them.... FAST.

5. Unlike Soft Lubes, this oven-tried ALOX is very tough/not sticky
You can seat bullets well outside the case w/o too much worry.
Set OAL as long as chamber will allow to start, depending on
powder volume-fill/air space limitations.*

*See https://i.postimg.cc/SNsTxJbc/458-WIN-Cast-ACC46-410-C-AA2495.jpg

[MostlyLeverGuns]

For most .30 cal, I start with .310 unless I run into a tight neck chamber, then smaller. I would check accuracy and go larger if .310 didn't work.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well I hope you all forgive me. I bought a new (fingers crossed) Lyman 311467 mould and the Lee .311 sizing die. The mould is listed at 177 gn. I have some Lyman #2 I will add to my softer scrap lead, by non scientific guesstimate. The lube grooves look like tumble lube grooves, which is how I lube revolver bullets. I will try it. If it sizes to 311 I will try it without gas checks first, at a slower velocity. But will order gas checks.

Not the best shot in the room. But don’t laugh until you see the target. And in any event, I will start casting rifle bullets for my 1885.

Photo for illustrative purposes:
293335

I think that is a great choice. Good luck and report your results, we'll all be curious to here them.

[fn1889m]

@mehavey -

I ended up with a pile of Lyman alox sticks (and no lube/sizer) so I melted them and combined them with equal part JPW. I apply it once after sizing, softened with a solvent, tumbled. It dries fairly hard, and works well with pistol. I am not sure how it will work with faster rifle bullets. But I will start there, maybe apply both before and after sizing. It’s not hard to get it to stick and dry.

My tools, style and techniques are minimalist and low tech. I like what I have read about this bullet. I only compete with myself. (I always win.) There is room to experiment, adapt and improvise.

[Maven]

That's an excellent bullet to start with, fn.... It's a Guy Loverin design and is generally accurate in a variety .30cal. bores. That means you seat it long enough so that one or two of those driving bands are engraved by the rifling (that overall length varies with the rifle and caliber). Since you'll be trying those without gas checks, try 8.5 - 9.0gr. Unique, which works very well for me in my .30-06.

[smithnframe]

Slug the barrel!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Another common and well established load for these boolits is 16 gr of 2400. That's what I use in most of my .30 cast loads and my .303 as well.

Randy

[charlie b]

That's an excellent bullet to start with, fn.... It's a Guy Loverin design and is generally accurate in a variety .30cal. bores. That means you seat it long enough so that one or two of those driving bands are engraved by the rifling (that overall length varies with the rifle and caliber). Since you'll be trying those without gas checks, try 8.5 - 9.0gr. Unique, which works very well for me in my .30-06.

I would listen to this advice.

[azrednek]

I have a Japanese made browning 1885 hi-wall in 30-06. This is a scoped rifle, with a 28 inch barrel on the medium+ weight side. I don’t hunt.

For target shooting cast bullets, would this be .309 or .311?

The likely hood IMHO is you will not be satisfied until you try both sizes. Get both sizes and see for yourself gives you the best results on paper. You can always sell or trade the unwanted one here. If you plan on accumulating more 30 cal rifles in the future you may want to hang on to the loser. Unfortunately I lost most my notes after a house fire. Most my 30 caliber rifles seem to favor .311 as did a 32ACP. Exceptions being 30 Carbine, Marlin Glenfield 30/30 (conventional rifling) and strangely my Voere factory chambered in 308 Norma Mag, I use 309. A former neighbor sized .314 in his Nagant rifle. Last time my neighbor and I spoke about it. He was considering going larger than .314 for his Nagant. Several years ago I got what I thought initially was a to good to be true deal on 30 cal jacketed bullets at a yard sale. Been way to many years since I’ve shot cast in any 30 cal rifles except for my M-1 Carbine. When but more likely if I shoot up all the 30 cal J-words. I will start all over again finding the sweet spot. I’ve accumulated a few more 06’s and an AR-10 in 308 Winchester since I last shot cast in any rifle.

EDIT: You made me very envious of your Japanese Browning. Gotta say it, way to go you lucky stiff !!!

[fn1889m]

It’s interesting: post a general question and you get answers all over the board. Narrow it down to a particular bullet and you get powder, weight, velocity, seating depth, and the reasons therefore, from people who have done it.

“You made me very envious of your Japanese Browning. Gotta say it, way to go….”

Bought it before I retired along with the 1885 45-70 BPCR. To be honest I could not afford either today. But they may be out of production now. Traded an M14 (semi) for the 45-70. The 1885 .30-06 has a long heavy barrel. No provision for iron sights. It has only had +\- 20 rounds through it - has not been shot for +/- 20 years. Always hated the hi gloss stock. A full size M70 feels lighter.