Rifled 870, full bore Mihec round balls.

[Petander]

Thank you,Santa!

This is my first ever rifled shotgun group. 50 meters, kneeled position. Full bore (.732") 555 grain round balls, I forgot to pay attention to sprue position.

Gotta say,positive first impressions. I fired one ball @ 25 m, then moved to 50 for this group.

https://i.postimg.cc/50kFmjVR/IMG-20211217-WA0000.jpg

This is only 1200 fps ,I'm proceeding slowly. Gun is old, well broken in, chipped stock laquer finish but very good metal parts...? Also came with a clean 26" railed hunting barrel. Rifled barrel is "new", there was quite a lot of lead and then rust under it... spent all night on it yesterday, I mailed the shop.

https://i.postimg.cc/J4XpYHhJ/IMG-20211217-WA0001.jpg

My first hull did not extract,I got worried , the rest was no problems.

Anyway, the lead/rust did not completely ruin the rifled barrel. It's just that I now KNOW the barrel was not new, I wanted a new rifled barrel to avoid this exact thing. Idiots shoot bare lead and shot and nails with these and never clean. Basic slug understanding is scarce around here where I live.

Maybe I'll get my head cleared about this. Paper looks promising, my record 50 m slug group ever I think.

[Markopolo]

wow.... that is sooooo cool... perhaps I will have to "finally" get around to considering one. i have all the right parts in 870's. but alas, its too late for santa this year... Thank God there is a new year right around the corner.!!!! if I got a rifled barrel, I think I would have to get scope mount.

tell us about the load your using with that RB.. Hull and stack?

[longbow]

Very nice! That's good shooting and first time out too!

Now for 100m!

Longbow

[Petander]

Tell us about the load your using with that RB.. Hull and stack?

This is my own concoction based on interpolating lots of this and that. Pressure = guessure until I get these tested. Vihtavuori gives no shotgun data,too many variables,they say.

But here goes:

A pre-primed B&P 3" hull. 3,0 grams Vihtavuori 3N38. A Thin gas seal. A thin nitro card. A taller gas seal. A cork. A 732" ball PC:d to .735". BHN 15.

Roll crimped with considerable force to really pack them. I have seen low velocity spread, this same load is in use with my cylinder gun.

Disclaimer etc...


https://i.postimg.cc/mrPZPpHf/IMG-20211217-WA0002.jpg

[ASSASSIN]

That is one good looking roll crimp, and a VERY nice 50 meter group!

Already looking forward to future reports.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm getting my absolute best accuracy with round balls with the lower velocity loads. I'll list two below that are my favorites, both have taken deer, and both are very effective, leaving close to a 1" gaping hole all the way through. I'm not seeing much difference as far as destruction between these, and my full power Bluedot loads. You can substitute Federal gold medal and the new Federal top guns. You can also use a Fiocchi, but the weaker primers may require going up slightly in powder. I've tried these in a number of rifled shotguns, and they average about 1 1/2" at 50 yards in all of them, even with open sights. I do not know anything about Vhitavouri powders, besides I tried some N110 in handguns before. It looks llike N340 would be a good choice for this.

Federal GM 2 3/4"
Federal 209A
18gr Unique
X12X + (5) 1/8" nitro cards
1cc scoop PSB buffer
.735" ball, sprue up
fold crimp

1000 fps

2 3/4" Federal topgun V3 (plastic base)
Federal 209A
20gr 800x
X12X + (5) 1/8" nitro cards
1cc scoop PSB buffer
.735" ball, sprue up
fold crimp

velocity unknown, likely around 1000-1100 fps.

[Petander]

MSM , thanks for sharing.


I do not know anything about Vhitavouri powders, besides I tried some N110 in handguns before. It looks llike N340 would be a good choice for this.



VV N340 is very common for shotgun. I use it for all my 20 gauge slugs. I have used it in 12 too but now I found some lead shot data for 3N38, up to 700 grains of shot. So I'm trying 3N38... it's known for 9mm major loads while keeping low pressure, similar to 3N37. N110 can be found in some heavy loads,too. These slow ones use up quite a lot of powder of course...

But sprue! I just can't remember to observe sprue position, made ten more to go...

[Petander]

75 meters & bench today. I also loaded some Svarog Paradox slugs.

https://i.postimg.cc/76GFn0mc/IMG-20211218-WA0002.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/05mg6G6K/IMG-20211218-WA0005.jpg

1250 fps now:

https://i.postimg.cc/vZ0CR3Kk/IMG-20211218-WA0003.jpg

Five shots @ 75 meters. One flyer - I still didn't check the sprue position... And my front sight bead is white, holding white bead on white center is a bit tricky. Could be me,sprue,load...

https://i.postimg.cc/k5k19Zv1/IMG-20211218-150621-289.jpg


I also tried the Svarogs.

https://i.postimg.cc/5NxPx88V/IMG-20211218-WA0004.jpg

Got no group at all:

https://i.postimg.cc/mrQMz5G6/IMG-20211218-WA0007.jpg

Must be the tailwads, they are for smoothbore,not rifled. Apparently. But I've got to see things to believe. I will cast some non-wad versions one day.


Balls are obviously good. I'll try zeroing next - surprising trajectory, looks like balls from rifled barrel are not falling as quick as from smooth.

A big bore rifle feel. Me likes!

[centershot]

Petander,
Out to about 75 meters a round ball has a pretty decent trajectory. Once you start shooting at 100 meters and beyond you'll see that they fall like a rock!

[Markopolo]

I am curious though... why powder coat a round ball? other then they look very cool... does it serve any other function? reason I ask, when recovering lead in your berm, prolly smokes like heck when attempting to remelt. I do not powder coat anything, just for that reason. hard to find lead around here so I attempt to recycle everything.

[Petander]

I am curious though... why powder coat a round ball? other then they look very cool... does it serve any other function?

Same reasons as with any other projectile: lubing. My barrel gets no lead fouling. Plus you can fine tune projectile size, I just did by adding a second coat for another .002". Got 50 fps more velocity without changing anything else. Colour coding is another nice thing.

Melting range scrap smells horrible anyway, I do it outside on a Coleman stove. Flux a lot with sawdust and then some. Then later, another flux on an electric stove where I mix and clean more, no smell at that point any more. Those ingots are Pro Melt Ready.

Just occurred to me,I should empty my trap. Dirty but precious scrap.

[longbow]

That's a good looking target at 75m!

I'm surprised the Russian slugs didnt do better. Have you checked diameter?

If diameter is okay I'd think those slugs should shoot fine in rifled gun with or without tailwad. The post shouldn't hurt without tailwad in rifled gun. Load 5 without tailwad and give them a go.

Regardless, good shooting with the RB's!

Longbow

[Petander]

That's a good looking target at 75m!

I'm surprised the Russian slugs didnt do better. Have you checked diameter?



They are "okay" in my cyl Benelli but maybe a bit small for the rifled Remington. I have not slugged Rem. I'm casting some non-wad Paradox right now. I will double coat them for 870.

They need a separate thread. Or a very hard alloy to get the size up.

[longbow]

The rifled 870 I borrowed slugged at a tight 0.727" groove. I was a bit concerned about 0.735" RB's ( as cast size ~0.738") in that barrel but they shot very well and no signs of high pressure... Loads were well below max. but a tight squeeze.

Not sure how consistent Remington rifled barrels are so it'll he interesting to see what size yours slugs at.

[Petander]

The rifled 870 I borrowed slugged at a tight 0.727" groove. I was a bit concerned about 0.735" RB's ( as cast size ~0.738") in that barrel but they shot very well and no signs of high pressure... Loads were well below max. but a tight squeeze.

Not sure how consistent Remington rifled barrels are so it'll he interesting to see what size yours slugs at.

My balls are big,too.

I'm bad at slugging. No separate soft lead pot... and my smallest pure lead chunk weighs at least 60 kilos.

[GrayTech]

This is my own concoction based on interpolating lots of this and that. Pressure = guessure until I get these tested. Vihtavuori gives no shotgun data,too many variables,they say.

But here goes:

A pre-primed B&P 3" hull. 3,0 grams Vihtavuori 3N38. A Thin gas seal. A thin nitro card. A taller gas seal. A cork. A 732" ball PC:d to .735". BHN 15.

Roll crimped with considerable force to really pack them. I have seen low velocity spread, this same load is in use with my cylinder gun.

Disclaimer etc...


https://i.postimg.cc/mrPZPpHf/IMG-20211217-WA0002.jpg3 grams seems like a whole lot of powder. Never seen or used that powder before.

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, the trajectory can be problematic if you are trying to extend the range of your shotgun, but not a big deal for an open sight gun. Using my ultra slug hunter, If I have those 1000 fps balls 3" high at 50 yards, they are about 5" low at 100. That's the only real reason I punish myself with bluedot in the scoped guns. My Tracker II is sighted in 2" high at 50 yards, and it's basically dead on at 75. At 100 they are very low, but I can't effectively shoot basic sights like that any farther.

My bluedot loads are around 1300 fps, and I have my USH sighted 2 1/2" high at 50 yards, and it is about 2 1/2" low at 100 yards.

[Petander]

3 grams seems like a whole lot of powder. Never seen or used that powder before.

Yes it's a lot. Lower pressure peak, think Longshot. Except this burns even slower. Recoil is not "snappy" at all.

[megasupermagnum]

I hadn't even caught that. 3 grams = 46.3 grains. That's about what I'd expect to see from a higher end load of 2400, but I'd think then it would be faster than 1250 fps. The burn chart I see puts 3N38 a couple steps faster than Bluedot, but Bluedot you are only looking at 32-34 grains for a comparable load.

Is 3N38 at all comparable to IMR 4227?

[Petander]

Is 3N38 at all comparable to IMR 4227?

Not really, 3N38 is a pistol powder, especially for 9mm major loads. No rifle data for it at all.

I may change to 3N37 for more velocity. But not yet. I'm at a good point to compare RB alloys now.

BPI has a 3" Longshot load for a 1 1/4 oz DGS @ 1650 fps. My ball weighs 1 1/2 oz.

https://i.postimg.cc/qMw091wH/IMG-20211219-WA0000.jpg


My cork wad (or is it fiber?) under the ball may not like much more oomph here:

https://i.postimg.cc/br7Tg7Vc/IMG-20211219-WA0001.jpg

[longbow]

If that is a fiber wad it is a lot more substantial that the fiber wads I have, they totally disintegrate to particles and land in front of the firing line like brown sawdust.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My balls are big,too.

I'm bad at slugging. No separate soft lead pot... and my smallest pure lead chunk weighs at least 60 kilos.

I don't slug anything and especially large bores like shotguns have. I simply use calipers and measure across the muzzle between the lands. I even have a method for doing 5 groove barrels.

You just have to play with your calipers to get an accurate measurement, then you have to get repeat measurements to verify that you actually got something that was valid. Best to have the barrel in a vice so you don't have to try to hold it steady while measuring.

Been doing this for a while, like 40 years as a machinist. Dial calipers work better than digital for this as you can see when you are tight in the hole with a dial. IE: it doesn't move up or down when you have the jaws square to the center line.

I think those groups are pretty damn good shooting ! Now get in that Ice Boat and get after some of them Pink Elephants you got running around up there!

On another note:

Do you guys have Trolls in Finland? I watched a movie last week called "Troll Hunter" It was about a guy who worked for the Norwegian Govt keeping the far north Troll Population knocked down. He used a UV light gun and it turned them to stone (that's why they only come out at night) and then he broke up the stone carcass with a sledge hammer and then dynamited the pile of rocks into gravel. Then the Govt came in and blamed any damage or people they killed on Russian Bears.(Plausible Deniability) Apparently they have some pretty big ones up there and have erected power lines to keep them corralled in the far north. They come in all sizes and shapes from small to 200 feet tall.

The photography in this movie was pretty convincing? A lot of the terrain in the film looked like your shooting range? Looking for confirmation?

Randy

[Petander]

These wads are cork.

Calipers,yes,it takes practise. Uneven number of grooves makes it tough.

But a strange thing just happened: I found a casting pot for sale here in Finland! In a gun shop! A small Lyman pot, perfect for the occasional pure lead need.

Dear Santa... I've been good, I even made these Christmas balls.


https://i.postimg.cc/SxQ7k3Nm/IMG-20211220-WA0000.jpg

[centershot]

Bears.....200 feet tall? Oy! I need a new gun........

[W.R.Buchanan]

NO, it's some Trolls that are 200 feet tall. They come in all sizes. They just blame lots of deaths on Russian Bears. Trolls are not supposed to exist, and that's what the "Troll Hunter" is all about. He gets rid of them on teh QT when they go outside their protected boundaries. Since UV or sunlight is lethal to them, they only come out at night and they live far away from people as they can get. When they start causing trouble, that's the "Troll Hunter" steps in.

You can probably find the movie "On Demand" it was done with footage from University of Oslo Film Students who didn't believe it til they saw the Trolls in person. I have to say it was pretty convincing, and that's why I asked Petander if they have them in Finland too. I doubt Trolls would care much about borders so it serves to reason they they would have migrated over to Finland as well.

These are not the type of thing you go after with round balls or any other firearm. You need a UV Cannon !!! I'm looking for plans as we speak.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Petander: Has anyone bit into one of those balls thinking they were Jaw Breakers? They would officially be "Jaw Breakers" at that point!
They look delicious!

Randy

[Petander]

On another note:

Do you guys have Trolls in Finland? I watched a movie last week called "Troll Hunter" It was about a guy who worked for the Norwegian Govt keeping the far north Troll Population knocked down. He used a UV light gun and it turned them to stone (that's why they only come out at night) and then he broke up the stone carcass with a sledge hammer and then dynamited the pile of rocks into gravel. Then the Govt came in and blamed any damage or people they killed on Russian Bears.(Plausible Deniability) Apparently they have some pretty big ones up there and have erected power lines to keep them corralled in the far north. They come in all sizes and shapes from small to 200 feet tall.

The photography in this movie was pretty convincing? A lot of the terrain in the film looked like your shooting range? Looking for confirmation?

Randy

Do we have trolls? Absolutely. I took this pic a couple of years back.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhL3J1J9/IMG-20211221-WA0001.jpg



Petander: Has anyone bit into one of those balls thinking they were Jaw Breakers? They would officially be "Jaw Breakers" at that point!
They look delicious!

Randy

Yes these are good for trolls. A troll takes a bite, breaks a tooth - and swims away to Greenland, the only place with a troll dentist. Just hit them around the upper body, they are lightning fast catching the "candy".

Here is a popular winter colour I just made.

https://i.postimg.cc/jdt88b3X/IMG-20211221-WA0000.jpg

[edp2k]

Your could call that color "Oreo bits" :)

[longbow]

That troll is a big fella! That's why I shoot a 12ga. it's more gun than a 20 ga.!

That pic makes me think I should be looking at a 10 ga. or maybe even 8 ga.!

Where's 6pt-sika when you need him?

Longbow

[Petander]

I lowered the rear sight a bit too much,also too much to the right.

A quick frozen fingers group:

https://i.postimg.cc/D0jCDdwz/IMG-20211221-141124-532.jpg

I still didn't remember to load sprue up!

We had -4° F in the morning.

https://i.postimg.cc/9QNx1BNg/IMG-20211221-141102-565.jpg

[longbow]

Not bad for a cold finger group! In fact pretty good... minute of troll for sure!

Not quite that cold here. Our temperature this morning was only -8.3°C (17°F) so balmy compared to Finland!

Longbow

[murf205]

Petander, that's a beautiful crimp. What tool are you using to roll those shells with.

[faustus]

Yes, me too ... I was admiring those roll crimps. I would have the same question, what crimping tool are you using ..... and what is your secret for those perfect roll crimps?

By the way, nice shooting and it seems you have a winning rifled barrel/round ball combo there. Congrats!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Do we have trolls? Absolutely. I took this pic a couple of years back.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhL3J1J9/IMG-20211221-WA0001.jpg




Yes these are good for trolls. A troll takes a bite, breaks a tooth - and swims away to Greenland, the only place with a troll dentist. Just hit them around the upper body, they are lightning fast catching the "candy".

Here is a popular winter colour I just made.

https://i.postimg.cc/jdt88b3X/IMG-20211221-WA0000.jpg

That picture came from the Troll Hunter movie I was talking about. So YOU are the Troll Hunter!!! I thought he looked familiar! You are in the foreground and this was taken just before You blasted the big guy with your UV Ray Gun. This was one of the big ones that they erected high voltage power lines to keep fenced in. A map they showed in the movie showed the power lines going in a circle. They had no beginning or end point ! It was just a Big Fence!

Apparently there are many different varieties/species of Trolls and they all have names. They go from @6 feet high to as much as 200 feet tall. The ones doing most of the damage are about 20 feet tall. They eat meat, and can smell Christians, and they have no problem killing people. They are also the most likely to go "Off the Reservation."

Going shooting at Petander's range at night might get you Et.

Then the Govt. comes in cleans up the mess and blames it on Russian Bears.

They keep the notion that these things exist tamped down pretty well so they can evoke "Plausible Deniability" when things happen. If they get more than a few problems in any given area they call the Troll Hunter in to take care of it. He got knocked around a few times in the movie and was a pretty tough guy.

Randy.

[Petander]

Petander, that's a beautiful crimp. What tool are you using to roll those shells with.


Yes, me too ... I was admiring those roll crimps. I would have the same question, what crimping tool are you using ..... and what is your secret for those perfect roll crimps?

By the way, nice shooting and it seems you have a winning rifled barrel/round ball combo there. Congrats!

Thanks,the stars aligned nicely this time.


It is OMV Smart Box, an italian motorized crimper. I also use new hulls for now, primers costing almost the same as primed hulls. I only load slugs and tungsten, some occasional buckshot.

This OMV makes nice star crimps,too:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7mxBG8UKC1o

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
Thank you for this fine write-up and excellent photos. Your range reminds me much of the white birch that grows up in Michigan where I grew up.
I remain a RB fan as our hunting ranges in the river bottoms we roam about are a maximum of 50 yards. 33 yards is my longest shot.

I saw that troll movie a couple years ago. I do know strange things happen in thick river bottoms at night that sometimes are very tough to explain with a rational answer.

I was down in one of my favorite hunting areas at 3 am waiting on a big buck that normally came through about 5 am. At around 3:30 am I heard something walk past on the main critter trail 18 yards from where I was standing leaning against a 4 foot wide beech tree. I always rub myself and gear down with apples when leaving my car. I do have corn crunchers track me and lick my tree pegs off and on.
The steps were a loud "thwap"at about 1 second cadence. I first heard it approaching about 50 yards to my north and last heard it continuing down the trail about 50 yards to my south. The whole time frame took well over one minute. When it was somewhat closest to my position it stopped for a moment, then continued heading south.
It was hearing that creature pass through that made me decide a caliber .58 muzzle loader was not big enough to depend on for very early morning river bottom adventures. Or double Fox 12 gauge with RB is carried. I decided to never again stay on ground level in the dark. We also bought our first night vision scope.
I never heard that "foot stomp" again. Maybe a large bull or a large black bear.... Even considered a "Bigfoot" type.
Never thought about a troll. That would be easy to explain the foot thumping noise.

I have asked a couple older deer hunters who have hunted those river bottoms years before me. I am 71. One (Dan) who listened very attentively and whose eyes got wider and wider as I told the story never commented about what he thought it might have been. Dan only asked me what I thought it was. No I do not drink either. But I no longer discount the possibility that maybe those old legends have some truth hidden away.
I grew up and hunted with the great grandsons of the last Potowatamee chief in the Riverside, Michigan area. Fred the oldest told me some stories his grand mother told him when when he was a young boy. Most were very believable. Some made me wonder. I wonder now sometimes about what my sons think about me hearing those loud footsteps pass by.
A RB out of a 4 bore does sound rather handy. But I do carry a 50 Alaskan with 500 grain FNGC pushed at 1850 fps in those bottoms when I am down there in those wee early hours.
Mike in Peru

[Petander]

This project got delayed, had to get rid of my gallbladder around holidays.

Back to these RB:s tomorrow, I'm eventually hoping for 1450 fps while keeping the same accuracy. Still 3N38.

First I confirm my old load zero, then a couple of new loads. Five of these are RE-loaded hulls with old load & Rem 209A. I have never loaded a used shotshell before,does save five cents but...

About saving: To save my OCD nerves,Santa brought me that RCBS measure/dispenser. I should have gotten one decades ago!!!

https://i.postimg.cc/43Jj4Lkj/IMG-20220121-192701-575-3.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

Petander: good to hear you made it thru your operation. Now if someone says "You've got alot of Gall to say that? ,"

You can say,,,, "No I Don't!!!" :mrgreen:

Randy

[longbow]

You make it sound like wasting $0.05 is nothing but to us frugal types it just goes against the grain!🙂

Looking forward to your range results.

And good to have you back shooting.

Longbow

[CastingFool]

You make it sound like wasting $0.05 is nothing but to us frugal types it just goes against the grain!��

Looking forward to your range results.

And good to have you back shooting.

Longbow

somehow, in the spirit of this thread, the term "tightwad" seems appropriate. BTW, I resemble that remark, lol.

[Petander]

My cars are -and have always been- 20 to 30 years old.

But my hulls are new.

Got a phonecall from a mechanic today,our ~$,600 , year 2002 2.0l diesel Corolla passed the yearly inspection yesterday and is good to go for another year. It has 400 k kilometers, I'm aiming at half a million. Sixth year now.

My next rifle will cost € 800. Working on the paperwork now.

[Petander]

Well I adjusted my rear sight too much to the left at home so no bullseye bragging today.

But I found out that my 1350 fps VV 3N38 load becomes a1420 fps load when I use Fed 209A instead of whatever primer the B&P hulls come with. Recoil is a smooth push, I do use a PAST when bench shooting.

https://i.postimg.cc/pLYtnLcs/IMG-20220123-135044-048-2.jpg

[longbow]

How was group size?

I don't worry too much about where the groups are with new loads, just group size.

On my last range trip with Lee 7/8 oz. slugs and the Moose Minie clones recoil was brutal with the Moose Minies over a charge of Blue Dot that shouldn't have been near max. but I was using Federal 209A primers as well since nothing else was available. I loaded 20 but shot only 10. No sticky extraction but recoil was so nasty I decided not to shoot the rest. I'll break them down to double check to make sure powder charge is what I intended. If so I'll salvage powder then reload at couple grains less.

Slugs were punching round hole but large groups so no point punishing my shoulder with those anyway.

I should get a PAST as well. Maybe I am just getting wimpy in my old age but shooting slugs off the bench is taking its toll.

Longbow

[Maven]

295077

As you know, I'm really impressed with your (collectively) RB results as I shoot a 20 ga. blackpowder smoothbore trade gun replica with them too. I thought you'd like to see what can be done with a patched RB (.598" diameter) in a flintlock with no rear sight...i.e. if I can upload a photo here. Btw, that 5 shot group was recently fired @ 50 yd. I'd like to think it is repeatable, but weather and other obligations got in the way of further testing.

[Petander]

How was group size?

I don't worry too much about where the groups are with new loads, just group size.

Longbow

My post was not clear, I didn't group the 209A load, only chronoed it. I had adjusted my sights for the old 1350 fps load and confirmed it with 75 m target now... and I had moved POI too much. Group was 3-4" as usual.

I want a 1450 - 1500 fps "new load" before I shoot groups with it. It turns into work-like shooting to group every 50 fps change.

I'll try zeroing while shooting next, it's just a bit cold for such fine mechanic activities.

To be continued.

[longbow]

I'd think groups from fully rifled gun can be improved once you get sorted out and sights set.

I'm guessing no recovered RB's yet due to snow? Recovered balls should show rifling and bore contact which will be interesting to see.

I haven't chrono'd any of my round ball or slug loads to date but should I guess.

I haven't been as concerned with velocity, at least in obtaining highest velocity, as with accuracy... which of course depends partly on consistent velocity.

I am going to revisit the round ball loads I had best and repeatable results with. I will take the Chrony with me when I do. Let's see if I can put my money where my mouth is and repeat past success!

Longbow

[Petander]

Yep accuracy comes first. My problem is,there's no limit...

That's why I have my "old load" 1350 fps as a keeper. I think it"s good enough to break most clays @ 75 m. Today was dark, open sights and short barrel 75 m needs a concentrated mind and I saw the first one miss the black so... Anyway,I want myself zeroed for that load now. Just in case.

I have a bench rest / group shooting past that ended up badly and I'm trying to avoid the rabbit holes. I used to eg. count powder granules by hand to make my 23 mm Woodleigh 200 ,5 rd, 300 meter 300 WM group smaller. Shoot hundreds of groups every couple of grains. I finally sold my br guns (300 WM & 338 Lapua )for sanity's sake, it became work. I was never happy. Group was never good enough. Even though I usually won all our club's competitions.

I have shot at least two dozen 3" / 5 balls / 75 m groups with my "old load" (3,0 grams 3N38 )by now. Already used up 200 of those new hulls. I"m trying to keep myself satisfied and HAPPY for now... but I will see what 1500 fps does. If 3N38 lets me see that.

A scope would make group shooting easier but I decided to not go there for the abovementioned reasons. Real world 75 m claybird accuracy would be good for 50 meter whitetail... but in real,real life I'm using a rifle but... it's nice to have options.

I need more clays now. Heck, I can zero with clays,it's more fun than paper.

[longbow]

As long as I know the load and gun can shoot better groups than I can I am good to go! I don't like to be able to blame my equipment for bad groups... and of course since I reload the ammunition and set up the gun it really isn't the fault of the equipment anyway until groups get under an inch or so at 100m. Maybe large to you but adequate for me for rifle and I would be good with 6" to 8" groups at 100m for smoothbore shotgun. Hah! Look, mixed units! That's what happens when you grow up with Imperial then the country changes to metric but your big next door neighbour says "Nah!" to metric!

I am the same way with archery. I make my bows, arrows, bowstrings and most other equipment including fletcher, string jig, serving tool nd taper tool for wood arrows. So, if I don't shoot well I can't blame anyone or anything but me!

Yes, reactive targets are great! I'm too cheap to shoot clay birds though... unless they are already cracked or otherwise unusable for shotgun. Cookies are good... I mean good to shoot, and cheap!

I just punched out several hundred card wads for fillers and over shot/over slug for roll crimping. I broke down the Moose Minie clone loads to reduce powder some and maybe size down the slugs a bit. Wad petals didn't look good. Tight fit may have been part of the reason for nasty recoil though the slugs are HB and fairly thin skirt. I'll play it safe anyway. I've told you my blow up story. While breaking down the Moose Minie clone loads I learned something I will post in a new thread as it may help others but has no place here.

I will be loading up Lee slugs and some round balls shortly. I plan to load both 0.662" RB's cloth patched into shotcups and 0.735" RB's on hard card wad column. Both of those have given me 3" to 4" groups from smoothbore at 50 yards with multiple 5 shot groups each. So, let's see if I can repeat that!

Longbow

[gumbo333]

Wow, I don’t shoot shotgun round balls or slugs. I do shoot HyTek and PC’d boolits. But those beautiful jaw breakers are really cool. Love this thread.

[Petander]

As long as I know the load and gun can shoot better groups than I can I am good to go!


How do you know that?

[longbow]

Well, I guess it's a bit subjective but if I can shoot several nice tight groups from a given gun with given load on a day I am steady and shooting well I am going to assume that the gun and load are doing their part and I just happened to do my part right that day. If same gun and load aren't grouping as tightly next time out I am going to assume it is probably my fault.

If I can't get groups smaller than say 3" any time I go out but groups tend to be say 3" to 4" regularly then I am going to assume that the gun and/or load aren't capable of doing better. Thinking my smoothbore round ball loads here. Not often do groups go under 3" at 50 yards but also not often they go over 5" at 50 yards. They usually run 3" to 4"... at least in my past shooting.

I guess same as when you are shooting small groups with a bench rest gun at 300m. If you constantly get 2" groups how do you know the gun and/or load can do better? Is it you or the gun?

Some days I know I am not shooting my best and some days I am very confident that I am so when I get tighter and more consistent groups on those days... repeatedly, I am confident that the gun and load are capable of at least that if not better. Like most people, I have good days, average days and bad days. There are lots of better shooters out there than me too!

I suppose my sentence should have read "As long as I know the gun and load can shoot better groups than I am on an average day I am good to go!" I am pretty sure most of my guns are capable of better accuracy than I am on an average day.

That's my logic anyway.

Longbow

[Petander]

I guess same as when you are shooting small groups with a bench rest gun at 300m. If you constantly get 2" groups how do you know the gun and/or load can do better? Is it you or the gun?

Longbow

To me,open sights are a challenge when the distance grows. And a 20" barrel. I'd be much more confident checking loads with a scope but I don't want a receiver mount. I'm keeping this simple,a shotgun barrel and a rifled barrel combo.

A br gun typically has very high quality optics. I use Zeiss Diavaris 56 mm. That helps a lot comparing bullets and loads. A completely different environment compared to a short barreld shotgun with open sights . Anyone can put five bullets in one hole / 100 m with my T3 Tac or my old (new to me) Sako Target. From good bags. You need 300 m to see the load differences (good loads,not some MOA...)

Another help is to ask someone else, a good shooter, to shoot it. My trainer friend shoots 15 mm / 300 m regularly with a similar Tikka Tactical 300 WM. Even 110 grain Sierra HP:s. So it is both the shooter and the gun but when your front sight bead covers 5" of the target... you know what I mean.

A hotline to Sako and general knowledge in br/sniper communities also tell the realistic accuracy standards. I remember using Sierra factory Game King for my 300, it was always 3" / 300 m. People said they get better than that. When I switched from a Karl Kaps scope to Zeiss, my 300 m Game King group size shrunk to half. I still use that batch of Sierras and a T3 tac,for long range deer.

That was 20 years and thousands of bag / bipod rest rifle long range shots ago. I've shot shotguns from bench for only a couple of years. Different levels of confidence.

I'd really like to know my 870 REAL 75 m group size... I'm just not good enough shot to see it like this. Shotgun trigger and all... Am I talking myself into scoping it after all? Then remove the scope when done.

[longbow]

Yes, I see what you are getting at.

I did the same with my Lee Enfield No.5. Accuracy with stock sights was mediocre but the sights are not what one would call precise so I wasn't sure if it was me, the gun/sights or the cast boolit load that was keeping accuracy from being better. So I decided to put a no gunsmithing scope mount on it and a decent scope. Group size shrunk dramatically and while Lee Enfield No.5's are not known for stellar accuracy at this point I think I am the limiting factor not the equipment. I can now take the scope off that rifle and I have 4 more Lee Enfields I can check out with the scope, 2 No. 4's and 2 more No.5's. Once done I will be pretty sure of the accuracy of the guns.

As for shotgun slug shooting, I generally have liked open sights on my lever guns and slug guns so that is what I have. My "standard" test gun is an old single shot Cooey single barrel shotgun I cut down and put rifle sights on years ago. The open sights suit me and I have shot some very nice groups with it so am confident shooting it. Lately I have been using the Mossberg Slugster but don't find the sights as good. I widened the rear sight a bit which helps and I use a 4" black diamond target so hold on the bottom point of the diamond. That way the front blade isn't blanking out the target. I like a bottom hold on a round bullseye too for the same reason. I hold the front sight just below what I want to hit so I can see what I want to hit.

So, if I have shot good groups with the Cooey, I am confident that the load works and is capable of repeatable good accuracy. However, now that I am using the Mossberg I have introduced that variable so should confirm performance of loads with the Cooey then shoot same loads in the Mossberg. If they perform in the Cooey and not in the Mossberg I'll have to play with fit and other load variables to suit the Mossberg.

Generally I have found that if I shoot a couple of similar size 5 shot groups and shots are clustered... on a day I am feeling confident I am shooting well anyway, that is an indication of the load performance. If good I'll refine the load some by playing with fits, wads, powder charge. If the shots are random then I usually abandon that particular slug or set of components. There are so many variables in slug shooting I find it hard to work with a load that doesn't seem to work. Maybe it would only take one small change but?

I am a pretty simple guy and not a highly skilled shooter so I may not (probably am not) telling you anything you don't know. I'd say your shooting skills are far superior to mine. This is how I sort out slug loads to work with though.

Longbow

[Petander]

Remember my 20 gauge "Economy RB Loads" using factory trap ammo? Cut the crimp,replace shot with a cork and a ball. Roll crimp.

I can hit claybirds @ 25 meters berm,standing, it's a light fun practise load.

My friend has the same Rem 870 Express, I gave him some rounds but they do not shoot even that 25 m claybird accurate in his gun. Guns are about the same age too, fairly new. So my ammo is only "ok" in my gun,not his.

(My RB accuracy standards have changed after getting the rifled 12 870 though...)

Anyway you get my point. I rather test in the gun I actually shoot.

By the way: I think I got lucky because my friend said "had these worked, I'd have wanted a thousand rounds more."

[elmacgyver0]

I have enjoyed reading this thread and the great pictures.
I did have to laugh at this comment though.
"My balls are big,too."

[Finster101]

Petander, are you up really early today or really late tonight. It's 8:39 PM here.

[megasupermagnum]

I have enjoyed reading this thread and the great pictures.
I did have to laugh at this comment though.
"My balls are big,too."

My favorite part is that Petlander is exactly how I imagine a Finlander shooter to look like. He knows the hair game. :mrgreen:

[dverna]

Yep accuracy comes first. My problem is,there's no limit...

That's why I have my "old load" 1350 fps as a keeper. I think it"s good enough to break most clays @ 75 m. Today was dark, open sights and short barrel 75 m needs a concentrated mind and I saw the first one miss the black so... Anyway,I want myself zeroed for that load now. Just in case.

I have a bench rest / group shooting past that ended up badly and I'm trying to avoid the rabbit holes. I used to eg. count powder granules by hand to make my 23 mm Woodleigh 200 ,5 rd, 300 meter 300 WM group smaller. Shoot hundreds of groups every couple of grains. I finally sold my br guns (300 WM & 338 Lapua )for sanity's sake, it became work. I was never happy. Group was never good enough. Even though I usually won all our club's competitions.

I have shot at least two dozen 3" / 5 balls / 75 m groups with my "old load" (3,0 grams 3N38 )by now. Already used up 200 of those new hulls. I"m trying to keep myself satisfied and HAPPY for now... but I will see what 1500 fps does. If 3N38 lets me see that.

A scope would make group shooting easier but I decided to not go there for the abovementioned reasons. Real world 75 m claybird accuracy would be good for 50 meter whitetail... but in real,real life I'm using a rifle but... it's nice to have options.

I need more clays now. Heck, I can zero with clays,it's more fun than paper.

Mounting a scope for load testing makes a lot of sense. Getting s good group with most shotgun sights is more luck...I think.

I do the same with my lever action carbines....mount a scope for load testing and then revert back to iron sights...although on two rifles I have tang peep sights.

My eye sight is too poor to load test with normal iron sights. I would be wasting time and money.

For a shotgun, something like a Sig Romeo 5 would be good enough. BTW, a few years ago mounted an EoTech on a Kreighoff Trap Gun....it was very interesting...but that is another story.

[Petander]

I was up too late,like 4 AM. Got up at 7 am , drove to pick up a fixed car from mechanic... even my hair is tired now.

Yes, a quick detach scope would be great. But how to mount it while keeping open sights usable? I might be able to get a cantilever mount from a friend but mounting it straight takes a professional. My friend removed the cantilever from his new rifled 20 gauge barrel, mounted a rail on top of the receiver instead. Don't ask me why.

I have a qd (or easily removable) scopes on many rifles. A combination gun, a double sxs 470, Marlin SBL... I use open sights most of the time with those guns but load development is done with a scope. I need the confidence of verified ammo.

I have kept an 80's Tasco Mag IV 5-20x50 air rifle scope for this purpose. It has been on everything from airguns to 22LR s to 338 Lapua Magnum. I mounted it on a new rifle to verify accuracy many times. I shoot good with it in good weather, it has a parallax adjustment and target turrets. Worth maybe $30. But if the gun shoots good with the Tasco, it's a keeper and worth a durable quality scope, woods and weather resistant etc.

How to mount a scope on the 870 and keep open sights option? Rail on a receiver? No. One of those receiver mounts? Well it CAN be removed but no. Drill and tap a cantilever mount to the barrel would be good... IF done straight. It could be removed and re-mounted,too.

Oh boy.

[Cap'n Morgan]

A scope does away with the guess work when testing slug loads. It also makes it harder to blame fliers on yourself and not the load.

I made this temporary scope mount for a Leupold x2 long eye relief scope when I started on the slug madness.
More than six years later, it's still on. I'm not sure I would be better off with a higher magnification - and I don't have to worry about "the Weatherby scar".

This is four shots with my Brenneke clone at 64 yards. I never get tired of posting this picture... :)
https://i.imgur.com/bw5j6sW.jpg?1

[W.R.Buchanan]

What you guys are talking about is called "Acceptable Accuracy." That is defined as the level of accuracy that will do the intended job of the gun you are shooting.

You don't need one hole groups to shoot pigs at 30 yards. Any hit with a Slug will probably take out the pig. I saw a pic of a Russian Boar that was shot by a guy's Wife with a O/U Shotgun. This thing was huge maybe 6-800 lbs and she nailed it right thru the shoulder and it dropped. DRT! Probably a Brenneke Slug or maybe a Lightfield as I don't think they were reloaders. But my point is that the round was powerful enough to take that critter down with that shot placement, and teh fact that the gun was a 3-4" gun @ 50 yards didn't make one Iota of difference to the Boar!

I look for Acceptable Accuracy or Usable Accuracy from all my guns.

I shot this one with my A5 and my Non toxic Slugs at 50 yards with open sights on a Hasting Rifled barrel. I think this is good enough for whatever I want to shoot with that gun.

The second group was shot offhand at 50 yards with my 20" M500 with Rifle Sights and Federal Low Recoil Slugs. I think that is good enough for anything with that gun.

I was holding my Mouth a little to the left on that group.

Randy

[Petander]

I found out that my BPI 1500 scale is way off.

So my 3,00 gram load has been 2,90 grams.

Instructions say to use 50 grams for calibration, 50 g check reads 50,02 and gives an impression of things being okay ... but 3,00 grams reads 3,10g and 5,00 grams reads 5,15 etc. It also does not actually calibrate per instructions.

Money wasted. I'm even happier with the RCBS now. And all my old beam scales...

Because of this,I made heavier loads than I thought today, RCBS dispenser reads right and I did 3,10 g loads... but my old BPI weighed loads had only been 2,90 g , not 3,0 so I jumped quite a lot at once. And there are 209A primers.

Oh well. Maybe I'm getting that 1500 fps now.

https://i.postimg.cc/JhV5S7Vr/IMG-20220124-220007-355.jpg

I just hate cheap crappy digital everything that we are being drowned in with.

BPI version of three grams here.

[longbow]

Are you sure the scale is off or are the calibration weights not accurate weight? Easy to check on a beam scale.

Either way though that is pretty poor. A guy shouldn't have to worry about accuracy error that will affect pressure!

Yes, I tend to like things that don't require batteries to work. Beam scales are fine by me!

Longbow

[Petander]

Are you sure the scale is off or are the calibration weights not accurate weight? Easy to check on a beam scale.


The scale is off. My new RCBS dispenser agrees with my five beam scales and with all these weights. And with other weights and powder charges ... I just had a stupid habit to check with the included 50 gram weight. Which shows ok.

EDIT: I think I will survive the loads I made now. Even though hotter than I intended.

But thinking about making , say , 200 rounds of 300 m 300 WM rounds with 158 Sierra, that takes 5,15 grams of N165. It would be 5,00 grams, NOT ACCURATE, and this load has a couple of decades of development here within a small group of 300 WM Tikka / Sako shooters.

[Petander]

Well here it is, 1500 fps and still grouping.

https://i.postimg.cc/RFG4L6bM/IMG-20220125-124308-557-3.jpg

I only fired three to check 75 m zero which seems to be hard to get right... after seeing the hits I fired two more , standing, to see what happens offhand. Bad things happen!

https://i.postimg.cc/X7r49vKb/IMG-20220125-130240-255-2.jpg

Depending on technique, bench zero can be different. I got no confirmation today, will try again, bench is getting boring. My white bead front sight covers the whole black bullseye so I'm shooting white on white in white environment...

1 1/4 oz @ 1500 fps started to hammer my right hand middle finger knuckle. This load is worth sending to be pressure tested. Fed 209A works good with such a big charge of VV 3N38,burns good.

Oh and these were once fired, RE-loaded B&P hulls.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Hot tip on shooting a Shotgun off bags.

Sit the Fore End on the front bag and squeeze the op rods behind it to prevent the action from opening during Recoil.

As soon as the Hammer drops it disengages the Bolt Release which allows the slide to move rearwards.

It will do this under recoil and spoil your shot.

Mossbergs work the same way.

Use a 4-6" Black Diamond for a target spot and sit the front sight directly under the bottom point of the diamond. Much easier to see the target and index the sight to the diamond properly.

I have some black paper squares I just staple to the target.

Randy

[longbow]

As soon as the Hammer drops it disengages the Bolt Release which allows the slide to move rearwards.

It will do this under recoil and spoil your shot.

Mossbergs work the same way

Seems to me you have brought this up before but it has just sunk in!

I've been getting mediocre to poor results using the Mossberg Slugster with loads that were good in my single shot. While it's no surprise different guns may not shoot the same load well, these were checked for fit and I would have (did actually) expected better results from the Mossberg. It now occurs to me that the gun is unlocking and self ejecting during recoil likely affecting group size as you mention.

This is what comes from a recoil addled brain!

I will take measures to correct this next range trip!

Longbow

[Petander]

Federal has a 1 1/4 oz slug @ 1600 fps , I don't know what barrel length. But my memory says they do kick harder than these RB loads of mine, must be the powder. 3N38 is very slow. I have a few of those Federals,maybe check / chrono / analyze powder charge...

But I'm happy with my 20" barrel ,chronoed 1500 fps.

Some TKO here.

https://i.postimg.cc/G2ZJFGcf/Screenshot-20220125-202827-2.png

[gumbo333]

Petander, try using a 6 o’clock hold where you place the bullseye on top of your front sight rather than cover it up.

[Petander]

Petander, try using a 6 o’clock hold where you place the bullseye on top of your front sight rather than cover it up.

Thanks but I can't see the white ball front sight on white paper so I'm trying to cover the black.

I guess I have to be happy with 3"-4" / 75 meters from bags.

If I mount a scope I will 1) lose normal shotgun barrel use. 2) Start trying to make this a sniper rifle,get frustrated and throw away. Been there.

If I only could get a cantilever barrel but no, they are extremely rare here.

[W.R.Buchanan]

1 oz slugs at 1600 fps are Butt Kickers, believe me that's got me started down this road in the first place.

1.25 oz loads at the same speed will hurt more!

Also note that a .458 Win Mag 500 gr bullet at 2150fps has a TKO of 70! The slug is @20% more efficient at dumping it's energy in the target. The Win Mag will probably go clean thru and leave a nice 7/16" hole behind and dump the remainder of it's energy in the Dirt beyond . The slug would seldom go clean thru and will dump all it's energy on the target. Hence the higher TKO!.

Randy

[centershot]

1 oz slugs at 1600 fps are Butt Kickers, believe me that's got me started down this road in the first place.

Randy

Oh yes, me too! A 1 oz. slug at 1300 fps will kill anything that I need to kill and it's like shooting a 3 dram trap load. No rattled teeth......

[Petander]

Yep I'm not going to 1600 fps for many reasons.

This is still a "push", 3N38 is so slow it really adds to shooting comfort.

I wonder how much powder a Federal 1 1/4 oz @ 1600 fps has? I may need to find out.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Brenneke has two Slug loads that are in excess of the Federal 1 1/4oz load at 1600 fps. TKO 91

They are the "Black Magic 3" Magnum" 1 3/8 oz at 1500 fps TKO 94.

And the "Magnum Crush 3" Magnum" 1 1/2 oz at 1600 fps TKO 109!

They also have a 2 3/4" "Green Lightning Short Magnum" 1 1/4 oz at 1475 fps TKO 84 which is more than enough for anything well see in N/A, and the recoil for 1 or 2 shots could be dealt with!

The biggest problem with the heavier loads is that in a 7-8 lb. gun the recoil will literally break bones, so there is no need to buy more than one 5 round box, as you will probably take 4 rounds to your grave with you!

Something for all of those who think recoil is not an issue to ponder while their eyes are spinning in their sockets.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

I really like that "green lightning" load. It used to be called short field magnum. Recoil isn't that much different from the Brenneke classic load, and they do shoot really well. I shot one fine looking buck with one, right through the lungs, dropped on the spot. I prefer the classic, they generally shoot best overall, but my Mossberg is every bit as accurate with the short field magnum.

I have shot the black magic, I have a hard time believing they were loaded to 1500 fps then, this must be close to 10 years ago. Recoil was not horrendous. They did not shoot great. I never have come across the unicorn that is the gold magnum crush. 660 grains at 1600 fps, good gravy. I love the Taufledermaus video, the slug is a beast.

[missionary5155]

Those Taufledermaus videos are interesting from both sides of what to try and pure loco weed inspired.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I got 5 boxes of these "Tactical Home Defense" rounds. $8 a box. These are loaded to 1378 fps (TKO 62) and are just a little stiffer than Federal Low Recoil Slugs at 1300 fps. Just wanted something with a Brenneke Slug in it to see how well they worked.

Please Note: These are loaded in Regular RIO Hulls. just like I bought from BPI, Roll Crimped with rolled ink lettering on the outside. I found the same thing with Lightfield Slugs which were loaded in Orange Rio Hulls.

Randy

[Petander]

Found one on 75 meter berm, it had missed my trap and hit a rock after plowing some snow.

99 % remaining weight, expanded to 200 %.

https://i.postimg.cc/FKZtTXhL/IMG-20220607-203910-623.jpg