Cap n' Ball resources on YouTube, some questions

[curioushooter]

Duelist1954 (https://www.youtube.com/user/duelist1954) (Mike Beliveau (https://mikebeliveau.com/)) has some very good resources. His videos basically informed me sufficiently about such revolvers that I was willing to purchase one: an 1860 Army. Boy, these are fun. I feel like everyone needs one of these things.

But regardless, I want to let people know what I have found about these, so you can avoid some problems I had.

I have a recently made Pietta (2019) and the nipples it comes with don't really fit CCI#11 caps. I bought Track of the Wolf's nipples. They were worse. In fact, the bound up the revolver and it was hard to even get #11 caps to seat onto them. They were oversized, and the threads didn't even fit well. I bought some Treso AMPCO ones, some kind of brass or bronze alloy, and they are outstanding. Same price, $5 a piece, but vastly better performance. Possibles Shop was the online merchant I got them from.

So far I have only worked with Hornady's round balls, which the 454 work better than 451. I've used ox-yoke felt wads and GOEX FFF with T/C Bore butter saturating the ball side of the wad. Works well. But I want to try some things. Maybe get it cheaper.

Anyone use more pedestrian material to make the cards or wads? Like cardboard. I was thinking one could put some cereal cardboard in a baking pan and melt on top of it some bore butter or homemade lube (50/50 Beeswax/Tallow I've heard works). I have an abundance of deer and cattle tallow and keep bees so this seems good. Then punch these out with a 45 ACP case or something? Is there a fabric that will work?

And I was thinking a 200 grain round nose conical would be nifty. I don't want the pointed nose. The Piettas have a flat faced ram meant for a round ball. The lee design I was expecting to have a heel, but it doesn't. How you get that in the chamber?

Anyone making molds for these which don't involve a pointed bullet?

[Surculus]

Duelist1954 (https://www.youtube.com/user/duelist1954) (Mike Beliveau (https://mikebeliveau.com/)) has some very good resources. His videos basically informed me sufficiently about such revolvers that I was willing to purchase one: an 1860 Army. Boy, these are fun. I feel like everyone needs one of these things.

Yeah, Mike is definitely the go to guy for BP content on TheirTube. I like Guns of the West channel and that Hungarian fellow who specializes in shooting the original oldies available in Yurp...


But regardless, I want to let people know what I have found about these, so you can avoid some problems I had.

I have a recently made Pietta (2019) and the nipples it comes with don't really fit CCI#11 caps. I bought Track of the Wolf's nipples. They were worse. In fact, the bound up the revolver and it was hard to even get #11 caps to seat onto them. They were oversized, and the threads didn't even fit well. I bought some Treso AMPCO ones, some kind of brass or bronze alloy, and they are outstanding. Same price, $5 a piece, but vastly better performance. Possibles Shop was the online merchant I got them from.

And the *only* merchant who has them anymore, AFAICT: suspect they bought out Treso's supply when they got out of the beryllium copper [AMPCO is the supplier of the material/proprietary alloy of BeCu] nipples market. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read the limited availability of (remaining) sizes and vendors who used to carry them no longer having any. But you may have stumbled on part of the reason Remington #10 caps are so much more favored over the CCI offerings...


So far I have only worked with Hornady's round balls, which the 454 work better than 451. I've used ox-yoke felt wads and GOEX FFF with T/C Bore butter saturating the ball side of the wad. Works well. But I want to try some things. Maybe get it cheaper.

Anyone use more pedestrian material to make the cards or wads? Like cardboard. I was thinking one could put some cereal cardboard in a baking pan and melt on top of it some bore butter or homemade lube (50/50 Beeswax/Tallow I've heard works). I have an abundance of deer and cattle tallow and keep bees so this seems good. Then punch these out with a 45 ACP case or something? Is there a fabric that will work?
The waxed cardboard milk cartons are reputed to be the best cheap solution [if you buy milk in cartons or know someone who does.]


And I was thinking a 200 grain round nose conical would be nifty. I don't want the pointed nose. The Piettas have a flat faced ram meant for a round ball. The lee design I was expecting to have a heel, but it doesn't. How you get that in the chamber? Get a heel-base RN boolit mold and then use a gas check when making them up for modern guns and just use them w/o & cast in puro Pb for the CB replica. The rebated heel intended for a check will allow you to get them started easily. Also, you have the choice of modifying the ram from your Pietta so it can load conicals w/o mangling them or just replace it w/ a ram from an Uberti which comes from the factory properly dished.


Anyone making molds for these which don't involve a pointed bullet? Just cause it's called a "conical" doesn't mean it's particularly pointy: that's just the generic term for any projectile used in a CB that's not a round ball...

[Battis]

I mix up a batch of lube - beeswax and paraffin - then, while it's hot, I pour it down the barrel (muzzle blocked with an ear plug). When it cools, I push it out and now I have lube sticks, from which I can cut perfectly sized lube pills to fit over the balls in the cylinder. Works for me.

[gwpercle]

Crisco ... the white shortening . Use in place of Bore Butter .

When I started shooting ... you drop a powder charge , seat the ball and cover the ball with Crisco , cap and shoot ... no need for any pesky wads .
I got a large plastic squeeze tube , shampoo or skin cream came in it ...cleaned it out and filled with melted Crisco , it would harden and I would squeeze out a dab of grease over the ball .

Crisco worked just fine but there are probably an additive you can mix to make a first rate lube .

A copy of Dixie Gun Works catalog (still $5.00) has a lot of do it yourself tips and ways to do things economicaly ...back in the 1960's we didn't have all these new tech and expensive products ...but we made do and had just as much fun shooting the old cap-N-ball sixguns !
Gary

[charlie b]

Decades back when I shot one a lot, I did not use wads or lube. It was a Rem copy. I'd wipe and lube the pin if the cylinder felt like it was getting stiff (~every third load). And, no, never had a chain fire. Cylinders cut a nice even ring off every ball I loaded. Tried conical once, then went back to round ball.

[trails4u]

Decades back when I shot one a lot, I did not use wads or lube. It was a Rem copy. I'd wipe and lube the pin if the cylinder felt like it was getting stiff (~every third load). And, no, never had a chain fire. Cylinders cut a nice even ring off every ball I loaded. Tried conical once, then went back to round ball.

I'm with this...... I believe that if you're shaving a good ring while seating you're good to go. And likewise, never a chainfire.

[Tar Heel]

Welcome to the C&B clan! Thank God we have more options than Crisco for grease - as you may find out. Crisco gums up the works very fast. I watched Mike's video on making lubricated wads and ordered some real felt from Duro Felt. With beeswax and tallow, I soaked the felt sheet and punched wads out with the proper sized punch I bought from TOW.

On **ALL** of my C&B revolvers, I now immediately (after purchasing), chase the nipple threads with a correct tap. The crud that comes out of there would amaze you. Never had a problem with nipples after that. Of course, the tap cost about 10 bucks. Cone size is all relative on these reproductions and either a #10 or a #11 will fit better.

All of my RB's are cast at .454 or .375 and work just fine. The only conicals I shoot now are the Eras Gone bullets. I especially like the 44 Kerr bullet. You can modify your plunger to seat the conical bullets if you wish or on some guns, the Uberti seating ram will fit. The Uberti is not a flat face like the Pietta. Why Pietta continues to field the flat face ram is a mystery.

Anyway - enjoy your new revolver and make smoke!

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[Castaway]

I’ve had good luck using wool felt wads cut from hats found at Salvation Army. Bore butter is runny and expensive and; in my opinion, way overrated. I use Gato Feo’s #1 lube. Combine by weight; 2 parts mutton tallow, two parts paraffin, and 1 part beeswax. After melting ingredients, pour it over your wads you previously punched out. Stir it up to saturate the wads. Saturate is key. Load between ball and powder. Living in FL, I don’t have an issue with it running and contaminating the powder. Before I started using GF lube, I was lucky to get three cylinders worth of shooting without binding. With it, you can shoot all day without binding the cylinder or fouling your barrel. If your fouling isn’t goopy, you don’t have enough lube. Make sure your wads are wool felt, not synthetic felt. One of the best sources I’ve come across is:

http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps1Mobile.html

Long and wordy, but packed with good information. As an aside, GF lube works great with black powder cartridges or mid velocity smokeless loads. Another benefit of GF lube, it’s a virtual double for Sno-Seal on your boots

[FISH4BUGS]

Wads? What wads? I shot a Ruger Old Army for many years. Put in the FFF powder, ram the ball home and fill the cylinder with some gunk. I don't recall what i used but i certainly did NOT use wads.

[Castaway]

FISH4BUGS, wads weren’t used in the Civil War either, nor did they grease the front of their cylinders. At some point, someone got the idea of filling the front of the cylinder with Crisco. Wads are much more convenient and your pistol doesn’t feel like it was dipped in grease. Current thought is adding Crisco to the front of the cylinder does not prevent chain fires and in fact can contribute to them.

[Thumbcocker]

I don't use grease on the front of the cylinder. First shot blows it off. The lube belongs UNDER the ball. 1 part beeswax, 1 part lamb tallow (get it from Dixie gun works) and 1/2 part paraffin. Melt mix. Put some water in a glass pie pan. Pour melted lube on top till it is 1/8 to 3/16" thick. Lot cool. Pull sheet of lube off. Take a punch (.45-70 case with the primer out and a nail through the hole or a punch from Dixie) punch out grease cookies.

Load powder, grease cookie, then ball. Ball should shave a ring of lead on loading. I use .457 balls in all .44's. Good seal and a flat around the radius.

Go forth and happily shoot. Your lube stays where it belongs. All chambers are well sealed. Life is good.

[Bent Ramrod]

If you can find (or have made) a good copy of the Ideal 450229, it should fulfill your requirements of a roundnose cylindrical boolit.

A good one has the rear band slightly rebated so it starts easily in the chamber and presses in straight with the rammer. It’s a hollow base, with grease grooves, so it can be lubed ahead of time. Set up this way, no wads or lube on top is needed.

The first mould I had didn’t have much of a rebate, so I had to pre-size the rear band in a 0.446” lubrisizer die and then lube the boolit in a 0.451” die. The mould went with the gun when I sold it but since I’ve found another with the rebate better done. It shoots well, but no better than a round ball. Shoots well in .45 Auto pistols, too.

[freakonaleash]

Chain fires come from the back side of the cylinder from poor cap fit. Lube on the front side of the ball is just for lube and has nothing to do with chain fires.

[Tar Heel]

Wads? What wads? I shot a Ruger Old Army for many years. Put in the FFF powder, ram the ball home and fill the cylinder with some gunk. I don't recall what i used but i certainly did NOT use wads.

Discriminating shooters use wads now. We have moved beyond our cave man years! You need to get with the program. :-)

[alfadan]

I don't use grease on the front of the cylinder. First shot blows it off. The lube belongs UNDER the ball. 1 part beeswax, 1 part lamb tallow (get it from Dixie gun works) and 1/2 part paraffin. Melt mix. Put some water in a glass pie pan. Pour melted lube on top till it is 1/8 to 3/16" thick. Lot cool. Pull sheet of lube off. Take a punch (.45-70 case with the primer out and a nail through the hole or a punch from Dixie) punch out grease cookies.

Load powder, grease cookie, then ball. Ball should shave a ring of lead on loading. I use .457 balls in all .44's. Good seal and a flat around the radius.

Go forth and happily shoot. Your lube stays where it belongs. All chambers are well sealed. Life is good.

I've been wondering about trying this. How do you store or transport them to the range?

[Thumbcocker]

An Altoids tin. You can also put them in cartridges made from hair styling papers. Same order of powder, cookie, and ball.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[alfadan]

And they dont all stick together in the heat?

[Green Frog]

Re: Shooting without a grease seal in front of the revolver bullet. For shooting C&B revolvers in N-SSA events I was told that some sort of grease seal was required by the rules of the Association. It may be an old wives’ tale, but they shoot thousands of rounds in fairly close quarters at their National events, so I guess a little extra caution is in order.

Froggie

[Thumbcocker]

And they dont all stick together in the heat?

Has never been a big deal for me. If I was concerned I would sandwich the lube between 2 sheets of paper before punching them out.

[curioushooter]

Why Pietta continues to field the flat face ram is a mystery.

My guess is that Pietta wants you using round balls only. The shape of the pietta ram is ideal for balls. It's not flat, it's dished and deforms a round ball very little. This also explains why the cuts in the loading area are smaller than the originals, making it difficult to use conicals and nearly impossible to use paper cartridges. You can of course file this area open.

Putting lubricant in front of the bullet doesn't prevent chain-fire; I've been told that's an incorrect myth. In any case, if you're shooing 30-35 grains of FFF you will blow most of that lubricant out after the first shot. What prevents chain-fire is a well sealed lead (being non-combustible) bullet and proper nipples and proper manufacturing.

The Treso nipples are being manufactured. The company called me back and they still make them. I like them because they have a small hole (.028?). You get less blow back and better ignition it seems.

I don't like the idea of allowing powder to contact any kind of lubricant. This will make that powder not burn and lead to inconsistency I'd imagine. This is why I use wads. Keep the powder "dry". This problem could also be solved by putting lube in front of the bullet, but as I pointed out already, much of it gets prematurely ejected. Anything soft enough to easily smear on the front of the chamber (like Crisco) will be too soft when it's hot where I live, too.

I really dig that idea of putting the molten lube down the barrel to make sticks! And it's way easier to do that with a Colt, so it's another thing to flex on Remington partisans.

I had the idea of pouring molten lube on cereal box cardboard or similar material. Then punching them out. That sound reasonable? Or is the wool felt just superior for some reason?

Regarding lube. I thought that using Paraffin was a no-no as it is petroleum based and supposedly reacts adversely with black powder residue. Is this a myth? Because paraffin is very cheap compared to beeswax.

Tallow is very cheap if you're like me and butcher cattle and deer regularly, it's basically free. Deer tallow is harder than cattle, owing to a greater concentration of steric acid, the most saturated of the fatty acids. I have rendered tallow from mutton and it was comparable to cattle but smelled worse. It is far harder for me to come by.

In any case does 2 parts tallow to 2 parts paraffin to 1 part beeswax sound reasonable?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There have been some extensive threads on this subject, which you might turn up doing a "search" of the site. My experience was that I did experience chain fires-- a very unnerving experience. This despite the fact that my balls did shave a ring when loaded. So I went to Crisco, but found that by the 3rd shot it was melting out of the other 3 chambers and making a mess. Then I went to hi-temp bearing grease with much better results about the melting, but still had a chain fire. Next, I tried pre-lubed wads from Ox Yoke, so I had powder, ball, wad, grease. Still had a chain fire. I couldn't figure out why chain fires didn't seem to be a problem worthy of note in the gun books by the old timers, but was about ready to hang it up. Then, here on the forum, a member named Indian Joe (I think he's an Aussie) opined that the nipple/cap fit is all-important. It is true that many nipples don't fit the size cap they're supposedly made for. They seem to fit too tightly or too loosely, and European made caps can be slightly different despite the number on the container. In my case, I found that the No. 11 caps I was using, although pressed onto the nipples tightly, did not all seat as deeply on every nipple and one or two would be high. I discovered this by carefully cycling the cylinder and closely watching the recoil shield on the left side where I discovered that some would drag on the shield as they passed. The conclusion reached was that the chain fires were due to recoil setting off the chamber that had a high cap when recoiled back against the shield. An evaluation of each nipple's size and purchase of new nipples where needed solved the problem, as did the purchase of two cases of CCI No. 11 caps, so that everything is uniform. As a result, i no longer use the wads, but continue use the grease for leading, but would no longer fear the chain fires if it was just the powder and ball. One thing that I always use if I'm not just target practicing, shooting, reloading, shooting, on a C&B revolver to be left loaded for any period of time is the Blue & Grey cap guards. They do two things: Assure that the cap remains in place on the nipple, and provide some waterproofing for the cap.

DG


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[curioushooter]

What prevents chain-fire is a well sealed lead (being non-combustible) bullet and proper nipples and proper manufacturing.

That's what I wrote. I've never had a chain fire (yet).

Chain fires start from the front or the back. A well sealed lead ball or bullet (even better) is a better seal against chain fire than any grease could every hope to be. This is just obvious to me.

Chain fires can of course start from the back. And no matter how much crisco or other stuff you smear on the FRONT it will not stop chain fires from the back.

There is where nipple specs/manufacturing come into play.

If the nipple isn't fitting nice and tight into the cylinder threads it won't be sealing out the fire that can cause chain-fires from the back.

If cap is not fitting well on nipple, if it's a bad cap, or the nipple is too long, short etc. it can cause chain fire for a variety of reasons. This is why nipples should be for a PARTICULAR CAP. And you should use only that cap. For me this is CCI #11. And the reason why I never even used the factory nipples, which are for a some European cap that isn't stateside but is closer to the Remington #10 cap supposedly.

One thing I think is not good about most nipples is the SIZE of the flash hole. It is far too large at 50 thousandths IMO. This increases risk of chain fire (of some spark falling though that giant hole) etc. It also allows way too much blow back. Small holes on the Treso nipples .028" have never failed to ignite when I wanted them to and never failed to prevent chain fires in my Pietta. Highly recommended.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Never had a chain fire with a lubed face on cylinder , but could get them every time without lubing , caps are tight on mine , and this has been beaten around more then once , shot my old cap and ball pistol from the time I got it and it would chain fire with no lube .

Do what you want with loading and I will have no chain fires with mine , I have always made sure the caps fit tight , never had nipples that were not threaded and tight , never worried about what cap I used and I used number 10 or 11 CCI or Remington or Navy arms , I shot that pistol for years and never experienced a chain fire from the rear .

[Tar Heel]

Chain-fire. Sympathetic discharge. Adjacent discharge. Over the last few decades there has been a LOT of speculation, theory, "proof", and wonder surrounding this situation. Having been shooting these revolvers for the last 50 years and having NOT experienced a chain-fire, all I can tell you is that I might have one or, I may not have one.

I highly suspect they originate from the rear, not the front, although if I load a 31 caliber ball into a 44 caliber cylinder, I may initiate one on purpose. If I leave powder all over the face of a cylinder or mix it with crisco and smear it all over the face of the cylinder, I may initiate one as well. If I place a cap which is too large on an undersized nipple and squeeze it to remain there, I may initiate a chain-fire as well.

My observations over the last 50 years, on the range watching nimrods try to load C&B revolvers, is that they really should be doing something else with their time. Most periodic C&B shooters I have seen on the range are sloppy, careless, inattentive, and uninformed. They are tragedies waiting to happen. That's my observation. Take it any way you wish to take it.

I used to gob Crisco all over the face of the cylinder 40 years ago because the manuals of the time suggested it. The Crisco did in fact, get blown off all the chambers within two shots and made an absolute mess of the gun. Worthless as a lubricant and doubtful as a chain-fire reducer.

Use of a lubricated felt wad and correctly sized ball improved accuracy, reduced fouling, and increased velocity for a similar charge of powder sans a wad.

Watching high speed video of a cap bursting on the rear of a cylinder convinced me that all the pyrotechnics happening at the REAR of the cylinder and NOT at the face of the cylinder was the cause of a chain-fire when coupled with sloppy loading practices to include incorrect cap size and/or deformed cones.

Watching this video and seeing what the eye misses, is enlightening.


https://youtu.be/B4MfmTk_-wE

Form your own opinion of course and throw your hat into this ongoing and never ending discussion regarding the root cause of a chain-fire event. Perhaps I have just been lucky at not having one or perhaps my attention to detail has saved me. Who knows for sure?

[derek45]

SLIXSHOT nipples

I make wads with beeswax/olive oil and paper towel.

they are thin, cheap, and work well.

https://i.imgur.com/RtjIw5r.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ldiLoCq.jpg


Eras Gone makes really neat bullet molds, but have been OOS for a long time.

https://www.erasgonebullets.com/

https://i.imgur.com/0O3NOqy.jpg

[Tar Heel]

Tar Heel, crisco works as a lubricant. I use it on my 1858, and it DOES get everywhere and make the gun a mess, but, so long as i periodically pull the cylinder pin forward and lube it good, i can shoot 20 plus cylinders without any binding issues and it keeps the fouling in the barrell soft too.

No doubt it does work. I should have said the felt wad with beeswax and tallow works better with less mess. If I did not have the wads, I would probably use Confederate Lube or 2:1 wax to tallow. Crisco is readily available and for sure it is cheaper than beeswax. For some reason, I enjoy banging out those wads. It's mindless and repetitive. The older I get...... :-)

[Tar Heel]

And they come out yellow. Like Bananas!

[armoredman]

I think, by reading this, that I am doing something wrong. I have the Muzzle Loader Originals Shooting Wads in 44 caliber, and for the life of me, I cannot keep them flat when I put the ball in. Maybe they go perpendicular again when the ball compresses against the powder? I have not had a chain fire, and I think I would probably need a new pair of shorts if it happened! I use a .454 Hornaday round ball in both the Pietta 1851 and Uberti 1860. What replacement nipples would be good for the 1860?

[derek45]

... What replacement nipples would be good for the 1860?


SLIXSHOT nipples made my Pietta 1860 reliable.

https://www.slixprings.com/proddetail.php?prod=SliXshot-Black-Powder-Nipples

[Battis]

I've had chainfires twice, two different guns. The common denominator was the roundball mold that I used. It was out of round, with scratches and divots - it was a damaged mold. If there's an entry of some kind in a chamber caused by a damaged ball, a spark will find its way in. And both times, the ball from the adjacent chamber exited the gun at a 45 degree angle to the ground, as they were designed to do.

[armoredman]

I've had chainfires twice, two different guns. The common denominator was the roundball mold that I used. It was out of round, with scratches and divots - it was a damaged mold. If there's an entry of some kind in a chamber caused by a damaged ball, a spark will find its way in. And both times, the ball from the adjacent chamber exited the gun at a 45 degree angle to the ground, as they were designed to do.

How is that?

[danmat]

SLIXSHOT nipples made my Pietta 1860 reliable.

https://www.slixprings.com/proddetail.php?prod=SliXshot-Black-Powder-Nipples

What size caps do you shoot?
Says works with 10 & 11. I want to use #11 on my Pietta 1858.
Thanks

[Gtek]

My brain tells me that the usually found pathetic cylinder to barrel gap on most, the chamfering of cylinder holes and a not square barrel face helps along a few bad things also on top of the nipple issues. After I started accepting the fact that the Italian pops are kits and fixing up some things made it a little more enjoyable. And not just busting on our Italian friends, spent more than a few hours on a couple 2nd Gen's also.

[Battis]

How is that?
Are you referring to the way the adjacent balls left the gun? I once read that the percussion handguns were designed for the balls to exit at a 45 degree angle to the ground during a chainfire. or, if the guns weren't designed that way, that's how it would naturally happen. And it did - twice. No big deal - just a little extra boom and flame, and the next ball in line dropped to the ground. Where did I read that? I'll have to look around.
Now that I think of it, both guns were full framed, top strapped guns (Spiller and Burr repro, Remington repro). I never had a problem with a Colt, and I wonder what would happen with the wedge on the left side.
But, I'm sure they were caused by balls cast in a damaged mold.

[armoredman]

OK, sounds fair. Hopefully that will never happen to me, use tight fitting caps and balls that shave rings as well as wads.

[Tar Heel]

I've had chainfires twice, two different guns. And both times, the ball from the adjacent chamber exited the gun at a 45 degree angle to the ground, as they were designed to do.

I seriously doubt that Colt's would incorporate a design around a known failure. It's the same as saying when your auto fails, it was designed by Chevy to eject the occupant through the windshield at a 30 degree angle since your vehicle is defective but we are going to sell it anyway, knowing it will blow up and kill you at some point.

The assumption that Colt's, or any manufacturer, would do this is absolutely absurd. I am calling BS on this one guys.

[Tar Heel]

Paul Harrell has a youtube vid about a ROA of his that chainfires consistantly if used without lubeing the front of the cylinders closed.

Paul Harrell has 10 years of videos on his U-tube page, several of which are entitled "How to Spot a Fake Expert." Paul is a monetized publisher (read entertainer) and while his videos are well produced and his delivery is practiced, his subject matter covers everything in the world. If I had a revolver that routinely chain fires, I would be returning it to the manufacturer as a defective revolver - especially a ROA that routinely chain fires.

In any argument, an "Appeal to Authority" always seems like a good thing to do. We must remain careful however to appeal to a recognized authority in the subject. A video producer, making money on his entertainment product, will fall short of a firearm manufacturer in a statutory argument due to the assumptive risk assumed by the manufacturer fielding a product designed by engineers. It's simply a point to be remembered.

I enjoy Paul's videos for the entertainment they provide and the topics he presents on. He is a polished presenter and has some broad experience. His continued use of a defective revolver has to be questioned however.

[Battis]

I seriously doubt that Colt's would incorporate a design around a known failure
You got me on that one. I can't prove that I read something somewhere, sometime, that perfectly explained what happened to me during those two chainfires. And, if you read my post, I did say it happened with a full framed, top strapped revolver, not a Colt.
But, I did read it somewhere, sometime, which proves nothing, but, the balls in the adjacent chamber in the revolvers that chainfired on me did exit the gun at a 45 degree angle. Call BS on that, and you're calling me a liar. Well, it did happen. So, I'll refer back to my post which said that "or, if the guns weren't designed that way, that's how it would naturally happen. And it did - twice."
Comparing what Sam Colt might have designed to what Chevy might have designed, is well, hypothetical BS.
I used to frequent BP forums years ago, and one thing I learned is never discuss two things; chainfires and the actual, initial, intended purpose of the wedge screw. What was I thinking...

[Battis]

Here's a video showing a chainfire in slow motion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L6Top2Sekc

From what I've read, chainfires were definitely a problem in the revolving percussion rifles where your left hand was actually in front of the cylinder.

Here's an interesting take on chainfires and lubing (towards the bottom of the article):
https://www.frontieramericanillustratednews.com/post/colt-s-36-navy-revolver-the-lesser-known-tips-from-sam-colt-himself

[FLINTNFIRE]

Less internet and more time behind a trigger , do the tests yourself , I did , as to caps I always pinched them a little and made sure they were tight , ball mold I used was a new steel lyman it shaved rings when loaded .

I agree with the post about this being one of those subjects that there is no agreement on , I will rely on my own observations having tried with and without .

[45 Dragoon]

That's too funny!! There isn't any argument about the purpose of the wedge screw . . . it's sole purpose is to retain the wedge from complete removal during barrel removal. It isn't an adjustment mechanism. If it were, it would be a poor one. A loose screw to keep an adjustment ? Really? The wedge is supposed to be driven in and under tension will retain it's position . . . therefore, there is no need for any adjustment.
This whole BS about the screw being an adjustment mechanism is simply because the arbors
on all reproductions have been short and allow the barrel to contact the cylinder when driven in too far. The fact is, except for the Piettas of recent years, all reproductions have been made wrong, with short arbors, and that is the "germ" for the wedge screw being an "adjustment" device. So, there's no argument, just modern failures in re recreating the original which lead to misunderstanding what the purpose of the simplest things are for.

Mike

[Battis]

This is what I'm talking about. I'll provide a patent number and an excerpt from that patent explaining, as I said, the actual, initial, intended purpose of the wedge screw. Not on Italian repros but an original Colt, as written by Sam Colt. And what happens - I get mocked or whatever.
Anyways, once again, here it is. I'll post it and let the so called "experts" chew it up.
I will post this no more forever.

Patent #1,304 dated 8/29/1839. In this patent, Colt talks about the "key" or wedge. "As the key C is to act laterally as a wedge to draw the receiver and the barrel into contact, it is of importance that it should be checked when forced sufficiently far in, or the receiver might be wedged up and prevented from turning. For this purpose I insert a screw, e, Fig.3, into the steel button f, which is attached to D D... The head of this screw, overlapping the end of the mortise, receives the wedge and checks it. By turning this screw the force of the wedge may be tempered. In fig. 5 g is a spring-latch on the under side of the key, which catches upon D when the key is forced in and prevents its accidental removal."

[45 Dragoon]

This is what I'm talking about. I'll provide a patent number and an excerpt from that patent explaining, as I said, the actual, initial, intended purpose of the wedge screw. Not on Italian repros but an original Colt, as written by Sam Colt. And what happens - I get mocked or whatever.
Anyways, once again, here it is. I'll post it and let the so called "experts" chew it up.
I will post this no more forever.

Patent #1,304 dated 8/29/1839. In this patent, Colt talks about the "key" or wedge. "As the key C is to act laterally as a wedge to draw the receiver and the barrel into contact, it is of importance that it should be checked when forced sufficiently far in, or the receiver might be wedged up and prevented from turning. For this purpose I insert a screw, e, Fig.3, into the steel button f, which is attached to D D... The head of this screw, overlapping the end of the mortise, receives the wedge and checks it. By turning this screw the force of the wedge may be tempered. In fig. 5 g is a spring-latch on the under side of the key, which catches upon D when the key is forced in and prevents its accidental removal."

Yes, and if you cared to look at the drawing of what that patent was about, it delt with long arms (revolving rifle) with a two piece system that utilized the wedge or " key". That system is different from what was used in the Paterson handgun models which changed again by the 5th Model which introduces the addition of the spring mounted on the wedge.
Specifically, the Colt C&B revolvers most often posted about in forums like this pertain to Walkers and all the various models that followed. All these models use the later wedge system that we are familiar with (since it is correct for the piece) and therefore fall under my description above involving the short arbors. Again, the originals were correct (of course) and all reproductions have been incorrect (as far as the impotance of the arbor length) except for Piettas of the last dozen yrs or so.

Mike

[Tar Heel]

Battis, nobody here is calling anyone a liar. What we have is a lively discussion where information is presented to the discussion. Sometimes we present things we believe to be true based on experience or something we have read. I sometimes have my position challenged and there are times when well articulated argument shows me that my position may be incorrect or must be incorrect. I try to keep an open mind and stay in the mix without getting ruffled.

This venue is NOT the best venue to hold discussions since vocal inflection, body language, and verbal cadence and tone can't be expressed. Were we all sitting in a room around a pot bellied stove drinking coffee and I made some claim that was clearly over the top, all the other members would berate me and reading their body language, I would accept my punishment in the light it was given. We all love to bust on each other when in company and we can read each other.

On here, feel free to call me a dope if I post something like a dope! When I say I call BS on an argument, I call BS on the argument, NOT the person who may believe what they say to be absolute truth. When folks tell me we never went to the moon, I call BS on their argument - not them. For some reason, they may believe we did not go there.

It's very hard on here to express decades of personal experience which differs slightly from yours. Doesn't make either one of us right or wrong, just different experience levels and situations. Sometimes I feel like typing replies, like now, to people who I have never met but they seem to be decent, reasonable folks - like yourself. Sometimes I just let the flamers go since a reply, no matter how well presented, will be met with distaste in anger.

I think we are all learning all the time, and as new stuff comes along, it gets thrust into the mill to become grist. Keep chucking your grist in there and I will keep chucking my grist in there for the youngsters to digest 40 years from now! Feel free to let me have it anytime you want to as well. Keeps me on my toes and secretly, it gives me something to look up and research.

Safe shooting!