What am I looking for in Cast Powders

[Wolfdog91]

Ok so I got another question. When looking at powders for the purpose of using them for cast. What exactly am I look for as far as wanted characteristics ? I know I know published data is the safest but the problem is well I just don't have that option alot of the time currently. I don't have a stock pile of 20 different powder like most of y'all do ,I don't have anyone locally to trade with to get what I want and I'm more less stuff with what ever pops up for sale ever two weeks or so. Been seeing lots of the ramshot powders on but very few if any IMR or Hodogen no pull down powder either.
So that being said IN GENERAL what am I looking for in a power I wanna use with cast ? Somthing that's gonna fill the case good ? Low on the burn chart ? High on the burn chart ? Like wants a good check list of things ? Like if I walk in the gun store see a few different rifle powers what should I look up about them to see if they would be good candidates? Other then somone already using them of course .Or since I'm powder coating and gas checking do I not need to be as careful then if I was using uncoated plain based ? Should case fill be one of my main worries or is there's someone more important?
And no I'm not planning on just picking random powders filling cases till they look good or where its the same as jacketed data and blowing my face off not what I'm trying to do in the slightest

[dondiego]

Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 have always been the most useful to me but you are going to have to get what ever is available to you at this point. I have been experimenting with BE-86 lately and like it. Some guys use the real slow powders and just fill the case and report good results with cast. I believe that most any powder has some use. Good luck finding what you need.
What kind of snake are you holding?

[PopcornSutton]

Wolf, I have been down this road. I shoot rifle cast benchrest, so pistol stuff doesn't apply. When I started, I scanned every match results on the CBA website. Now I realize these aren't the most accurate figures, but it gives you an idea. I tried them all, every powder listed in benchrest shoots I had, and I had them all. So before I go further, you shoud do as much of your own testing as you can. I know in today's world, it aint easy.
In cast, the full case thing doesn't always work. I shoot 30 caliber and around the 200 grain range bullet, plus and minus some. I will list a few powders that have worked for me, and what I look for. I tried Varget, N135, IMR8208, H4895. In my opinion they do not burn clean an efficiently, leaving soot down the case neck, which tells me it is not burning properly. Moving to H322, H4198, RL10 range, has shown complete burning, not soot, enough pressure to seal the case in the chamber at ignition, and better accuracy. Work your load with seating depth and powder charge, things may change for the better. This gives around 1900-2000 fps velocity. Work your load up and down and let your gun tell you what it likes.

[Winger Ed.]

I do a couple things.

1. Research, read up around here, take notes of what these guys are doing, and what works for the cartridge you're working on.

2. Go through your notes, and the books. Then make a list in order of what you want, and keep it in your pocket.

When you come across any powder on the shelf, you'll know if you want it, or what 1st, 2nd, 3rd., etc. choice is.
Then you won't have to wonder if you can use what's there----
Or if you will be shopping for a gun and mold that will take it.:bigsmyl2:

I was in the gun store awhile back and saw several pounds of Green Dot.
I don't normally use it, but they had plenty at a good price, and I knew I'd seen it listed for some cals. I load.
I went home double checked, and yeah, there listings for it in 9mm. So I went back and got a couple.
That was early this summer, and I hadn't seen it or anything else I'd want since.

I'd be looking for powders that have good results with accuracy.
As far as filling the case, or being dirty-- I'd adapt my process to them.
Sort of like steel toed work boots: They break you in more so than you breaking them in.

[Cast_outlaw]

As said above unique and 2400 are fantastic powers especially unique as it can be used in many cartridges with reasonable accuracy and velocity, I’ve found fast burning pistol powders work well for light projectiles and mouse fart loads. I found midrange pistol powders are useful for if you want to shoot normal weight projectiles and some rifle powers work to at moderate velocity.

[dverna]

IIRC, you are currently shooting cast in an AR. Yesterday you posted about 500 yards with the .30/06.

I doubt the same type of powder will be ideal for both. So it will help if you define your needs and objectives.

On the other thread, a gentlemen mentioned “The Load”. 13 gr of Red Dot (Promo is the same but cheaper) and if you read about it, it an excellent starting point for .30 cal cast up to 200 yards...maybe further. It is economical, and does not need a filler. If I was going down the cast rabbit hole in a .308 or .30/06 etc, that would be first stab. Unique would be another decent choice. But for me, 200 yards is as far as I can shoot on my range. If I wanted to get to 500 yards, I would start with Varget or 4064 in my .308.

You see my point?

BTW, I am one of those guys with 27 powders (last time I did an inventory) and I regret it. It is easy to chase the “optimum” load for every caliber and bullet. If that is how you are wired, you will end up at that place. Not saying it is a bad place...but that is how the story ends.

Anyway...let us know what your objectives are...calibers....ranges...bullets. Lots of folks here that can help with experience.

[sigep1764]

As a rule for me in general, I try to look for slowing burning powders for pistol like Red Dot/Promo/Unique. I do use W231 in 380ACP, it meters better at smaller charges. For slower rifle loads, Red Dot/Promo. Faster rifle loads, W748 and 3031. They can be safely downloaded, along with 4895, to something like 70% of max and still be safe. So for me, slower burning powders that can be loaded down. This provides me with the best opportunity to blend a little more speed and not exceed my RPM limit. A bonus is the powders tend to load more rounds.

[Mk42gunner]

Kind of depends on what caliber you are loading, and what you want to do with it. Check this article out, lots of good info: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

I will say that for handguns, most of my needs are met by the normal powders, i.e. Bullseye, 231, 2400 etc.

For rifles, it can be a different story. For most of the "full sized rifle cartridges" I generally use 2400 or Red Dot. For lever action Brush gun type rounds, something in the range of 2400 to 3031 or H335 seems to work.

Keep in mind, I mainly plink or shoot paper at under 200 yards.

Robert

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

There is no good way to answer your question, IMHO.

with that said... Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, Titegroup, Reloder 7, H110, SR4759, H4895, IMR3031 ...are the powders I reach for first, when loading cast in the cartridges I load for.

[Texas by God]

For my 30-30 and 30-40, I’ll use any powder that will reach 2000 FPS with 120 to 180 gr bullets safely and work from there for my hunting loads. I’ve been using some non traditional powders and old standbys as well. My other cast rifles run on Shotgun and handgun powders, mostly.

[Wolfdog91]

Mmmm think y'all are kinda missing what I'm saying. Yes bullseye ,red dots unique Varget 4064 are all good powders that are proven. Again what if I simply cannot find these powders. I love Varget but I haven't been able to find it in close to two years ,same with 4064 and honestly most of the powders y'all have mentioned. Can't find them don't have them so the the whole "just go get you some blanky blank " just plain isn't applicable to me right now. Trust me I've been of a few email notifications for various powders and components and it's just not happening.

What I'm interested in is figuring out if a powder would be usable due to it's characteristics in relation to what cast bullets require compare to jacketed.
For instance I haven't seen any of the powders eveyone keeps telling me to just grab and use. How ever I've noticed stuff like TAC , x-terminator , the western brand powders along with accurate. What would I be looking for to go "hay this would be a decent or cast " like what does a cast bullet need from a powder that you just don't need to worry about in jacketed.
As much as I'd like to just buys what everyone reccomended it's just not feasible right now

[Wolfdog91]

IIRC, you are currently shooting cast in an AR. Yesterday you posted about 500 yards with the .30/06.

I doubt the same type of powder will be ideal for both. So it will help if you define your needs and objectives.

On the other thread, a gentlemen mentioned “The Load”. 13 gr of Red Dot (Promo is the same but cheaper) and if you read about it, it an excellent starting point for .30 cal cast up to 200 yards...maybe further. It is economical, and does not need a filler. If I was going down the cast rabbit hole in a .308 or .30/06 etc, that would be first stab. Unique would be another decent choice. But for me, 200 yards is as far as I can shoot on my range. If I wanted to get to 500 yards, I would start with Varget or 4064 in my .308.

You see my point?

BTW, I am one of those guys with 27 powders (last time I did an inventory) and I regret it. It is easy to chase the “optimum” load for every caliber and bullet. If that is how you are wired, you will end up at that place. Not saying it is a bad place...but that is how the story ends.

Anyway...let us know what your objectives are...calibers....ranges...bullets. Lots of folks here that can help with experience.

Well again I'm trying to get to the nitty gritty of want I need a powder to do. It's like why does unique work so well in cast ? Well it's because of these things ? O ok so this power has alot of the same things going on so this would be a decent candidate to play with. See what I mean ?
I bought the powders I'm using in my AR off of reccomedations from YouTube but that was back when I could just find what I want . This i all kinda outta necessity rn

[Hick]

Another take on your question is the 'rocket' versus the 'firecracker' What I mean is this:

1. You can get good results with many cast bullets using fast powder (basically, shotgun or pistol powder). These will be small amounts of very fast powder in a large case. I call these 'firecrackers' because the powder all burns pretty much immediately. The Lyman Cast Bullet handbook has lots of loads for almost every firearm for fast powders. I use things like Titegroup, 700x, HP-38, W231 for firecracker loads all the way from 223 Rem to 30-06. The firecrackers usually have upper limits on velocity, but you can usually take them all the way down to subsonic with good accuracy.

2. You can also get good results with nearly full cases of slower powder. These burn from the bottom of the case toward the mouth-- like a solid fueled rocket. These will deliver higher velocities, up to the limits on lead boolits, but sometimes require a filler. These slower powders, however, usually cannot be downloaded for lower velocities-- because you need to keep the case full enough to avoid the powder all going up at once.

So-- you need to think about the velocity range you are looking for and select accordingly.

[Wolfdog91]

Another take on your question is the 'rocket' versus the 'firecracker' What I mean is this:

1. You can get good results with many cast bullets using fast powder (basically, shotgun or pistol powder). These will be small amounts of very fast powder in a large case. I call these 'firecrackers' because the powder all burns pretty much immediately. The Lyman Cast Bullet handbook has lots of loads for almost every firearm for fast powders. I use things like Titegroup, 700x, HP-38, W231 for firecracker loads all the way from 223 Rem to 30-06. The firecrackers usually have upper limits on velocity, but you can usually take them all the way down to subsonic with good accuracy.

2. You can also get good results with nearly full cases of slower powder. These burn from the bottom of the case toward the mouth-- like a solid fueled rocket. These will deliver higher velocities, up to the limits on lead boolits, but sometimes require a filler. These slower powders, however, usually cannot be downloaded for lower velocities-- because you need to keep the case full enough to avoid the powder all going up at once.

So-- you need to think about the velocity range you are looking for and select accordingly.

Ah ! Now thats what I'm talking about !

[Rainier]

Here’s a couple of links that might help…

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009122680?pid=248462

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2183830234?pid=912025

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/winchester-231/

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/accurate-5/

[The Dar]

Wolfdog,

Do you have the forth edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook? I have read many of your posts but can't remember if you said you had one. You should definitely invest in one if you don't have it. I don't load for the 30-06 in cast, but I do load 308. I've had good luck with Alliant Reloder 7 and IMR 4227. Please keep us posted on your progress.

Dar

[beagle]

Wolf, when I started loading back about 1958, I was darn near penniless. After much searching, I settled on Unique as the one powder that I could load .30/06 cast, .45 ACP cast, .38 cast and 12 gauge shotgun shells. Maybe not the best choice for all calibers but at least I'd have something to shoot. It served me well over the years until I started working and had a better paying job and could afford powder and afford to branch out a little. Since those days, my bench hasn't ever been without at least a pound of Unique./beagle

[Wilderness]

Ah ! Now thats what I'm talking about !

Wolf - I'll endorse and add to what Hick says. For those slower powders, the ones that come close to filling the case but give suitably reduced pressures and velocities, the key question to ask is how well they ignite and burn at these lower pressures. Some powders tolerate down loading while others of supposedly similar burning rate do not. This information is not shouted from the rooftops, though Hodgdon does say that H4895 (we call it 2206H) will tolerate reduced loads. There will be others. Reloder 7 springs to mind.

My experience is with 175 gn cast in .30-30 at 1950 fps (silhouette rams) and 2200 fps (real pigs). If the load is too light or the powder wrong it will show up as velocity variation (SD 30 to 100 fps, versus 20 or less), and as vertical stringing on the target (2" displacement per 100 fps at 50 meters for .30-30). A few shots may be enough to reveal this failing. The vertical dispersion is a consequence of the velocity variation, not a symptom in its own right, and might not manifest in a bolt action. LeverEvolution is fine at 2200 fps but a problem below that. Varget is best at full throttle (2150), and OK though not as good at 1950. H4895 is OK, and possibly a little better than Varget, at 1950.

Bottom line for rifle powders: How does the powder handle down loading?

[414gates]

For handgun calibers, stick to flake powder, not ball, with a medium burn rate like Unique.

For rifle calibers, you can reduce the load safely with any powder only if you take up the remaining air in the case with dacron. Around 2 grains weight of dacron is enough to fill an empty 308 case, so it doesn't take much.

If you don't use dacron, then do whatever the published load guide tells you.

[405grain]

Wolfdog91: I'm going to throw this out there as an FYI. In the latest Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook the author makes note of how 5744 is his favorite powder. He states that he has a big reserve of it, and has been shooting from that same batch for years. Most of the calibers in the Lyman Handbook list 5744 as their most accurate powder. There are a couple of problems with this, and it's not just that AA5744 is more expensive than most other powders. The powder that the author is using is an older formula called D060, which was made by Lovex in Czechoslovakia and marketed here in America as 5744. Accurate Arms 5744 is a different formulation and doesn't burn as clean.

Shooters World Buffalo Rifle is D060. It is made by Lovex and is that older formulation that is recommended in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Not only is Shooters World Buffalo a very good cast bullet powder, it usually costs less than Hodgdon or IMR powders. (Also, Shooters World Precision Rifle is very close to Varget, but at a lower price) I do have over a dozen different powders on hand, but lately I've been trying Buffalo Rifle with good results in 30 caliber rifles. Keep an eye out for it, and if you can get some I recommend it. Also, if you haven't already got a copy you should get the Fourth Edition of the Cast Bullet Handbook (or download a pdf of the third edition off the web)

[Thumbcocker]

It depends on what you are wanting to do. For example red dot/promo and Unique will make literally anything go bang. .32 acp to .45/70. I always have red dot or promo on hand.

Rifles are a different critter if you want more velocity. If you want neat little groups of holes on paper at 100 yards then promo or unique can get you there.

Right now I am chasing 2000+ fps in .308 and factory duplication ln .30-30. It seems that every burn rate of powder has an upper limit. Once you reach the speed limit on that group of powders you need to move on to the next slower group of powders. If I wanted to punch paper or kill cans fast shotgun powders would be all I ever needed.

Handguns have been much simpler. H110 or 296 has worked in ever .44 magnum I have ever had. Power pistol rules in .44 special and 9mm. 231 just kicks butt in .45 acp.

Hope this helps.

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[TjB101]

As mentioned multiple times above, Unique, Bullseye and 2400 are tops for cast in pistols and pistol based carbines. TG for 380acp, 9mm and powderpuff 357/44

Never a fan of H110, not a huge range of charges and beats the crap out of my GP100.

[ABJ]

I think these post are closer to answering your question( 13-18 and 20) and I agree with them. In addition to that, powders faster than blue dot can be pressed into service for most things if you are not wanting top cast velocities. Powders like 4227, 4198, 2400, 4895, 5744, maybe 3031 give me enough velocity and still keep recoil down. I also strongly agree with "405Grain" that 5744 and Buffalo rifle is starting to be my "go to first" powder where I can find a recipe. There are powders that I think have cast applications like 1680, 322, 335, Tac, Varget and others in that range and lots of folks use them but what little I have messed with them the recoil is climbing and the economy of charge weights starts climbing the less I use them. If I was running low on what I call the fast rifle powders and needed some of these slower one's I would post a question here on the specific powder/case combo and I'm sure somebody has "been there-done that" will answer. The reason I do not download any powder I don't have a recipe for is some powders do not respond well like H-110 and W-296.
Another source of info is the vintage reloading manuals of the 50's, 60's and 70's will give some insight into some of the slower powders that are still available like 4064. I would check for formulation changes before using the old data. If you can get a copy of Western's load manual they give a lot of cast data for there products that are a little off the beaten path of what most of us consider the staple powders.
I do understand your frustration of limited availability and thinking outside the box and I to want to hear how some of our fellow members incorporate other powders and how they arrive at each powders suitability.
Tony

[Larry Gibson]

If you're talking about your mentioned (in other thread) 500 yard 30-06 loads you'll want slower powders in the Varget/4064 to H4831 range for use with the 200 +/- gr 311/314299 type bullet. With the 165 XCB you'll want a powder in the range of 2400 - RL7. You will also want to use a dacron filler.

[Cast_outlaw]

I have had good success with Vectan powers lately maybe some of that French power is available to you down there AS and A1 are what I’m currently using AS is a fast burning powder around red dot burn rate and A1 is similar to unique burn rate hope this is more helpful and reloader 7 is my is what gets me out past 200m with cast in 308

[ABJ]

I was hoping Larry Gibson would comment, and if I may without hijacking the thread, how do you arrive at cast loads with the 4064/4831 burn ranges. I think the OP as well as others would find this informative. Example do you start with jacketed data and where do go from there.
Tony

[Thumbcocker]

Yes please especially in .30-06 and .308.

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[MostlyLeverGuns]

Handguns, very light rifle - I like TiteGroup, HP38 and Universal - all measure well, burn clean. Boolits in rifles - .308, .300 Savage .32 Special, .358 Win - mild loads, 5744/Buffalo Rifle, IMR4227, Reloder 7. For full power - .444, 45-70 - H322, Reloder 7, 2015. I don't much worry about 'ghosts' grains left in the barrel if accuracy is good. Hard residue found in a cold barrel after shooting some ball powders (BL-C2, H50, surplus 846) affects first round impact significantly. I don't run 'hot' loads in handguns, if I need more power/range than a 45 Colt - 20 gr 4227/454424/1000 fps - I pick up a rifle.

[dverna]

Wolfdog,

All of us are approaching this from what works for us. And most of us have the "right" powder(s) on hand because we planned ahead. That does not help you...you cannot find the "right" powder(s).

You may want to consider this approach. Determine what powder(s) you can get. Then study load data and/or ask here it anyone is using that powder for cast in the calibers/bullets you shoot. That will get you shooting. You may not be able to get the best powder you want (for example 500 yards with the .30/06) but something that works reasonably well. Something is better than nothing.

I have a problem getting Varget. It took 4 months to get my last jug. I have enough to last a lifetime of varmint and deer/bear hunting but not if I want to shoot for fun. So, I started buying powders that were more readily available. A difference of 1/2 MOA is not the end of the world for banging a 6" steel plate at 200 yards. Sometimes good enough is good enough.

[gwpercle]

Here's my advice . Picking which powder to use is the most confounding aspect to a brand new reloader ... in 1967 I was totally lost and made a few mistakes ....
Get several reloading Manuals ( I like to use 3 or 4 ) and study what powders are used for the cartridge you are loading ... You will see some used in each and every manual - That's good , write them down .
Pick a powder that has lots of data and used in every or most bullet weights or the weight bullet you are interested in loading .
Choose a powder that's been around a long time ... new powders and new company's come and go .
When Alcan came out it was all the rage... I bought a lot of it and still have 2 lbs. of Alcan #5 on my shelf ...bad move ... when's the last time you saw any data for Alcan #5 ? It folded up and went away ... leaving me holding the bag ! Bullseye , Unique , and 2400 Still here after many years , lots of data ... Avoid the new powders from new companies .
Do what your doing ... ask on this site ... You will get some proven answers here and my life would have been easier if I had access to this information all those years ago when I was looking for answers .
The problem today is there are just so many good and different powders on the market ...it makes choosing one hard ! In fact don't choose one ... choose 3 or 4 that will serve . Like when Bullseye dissapeared ... I found 700X , Red Dot , Accurate #2, Tite group , HP-38 and W231 could stand in for Bullseye ... by reading the reloading manuals and burn rate charts !
I put in a good supply of all these powders ...just in case Bullseye didn't come back !
I hope Accurate and Western powders stay around ... Hodgdon bought them but that doesn't mean the powders will continue ... I was liking them ...is it going to be Alcan all over again?
Gary

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

After thinking about this, I'll update my previous post.

Most powders are designed to burn clean at a certain pressure. The kernels are treated with a recipe of deterrents and flow agents to achieve that goal. Red dot is the exception, not coated, that why it burns so fast, but also will burn clean at lower pressures as well as higher pressures.

So, what does that mean?
Typically we shoot cast boolits at lower pressures than we would shoot jacketed boolits (but not always). If you have an idea of what pressure you want to load a cast boolit to, you can look for a powder that burns clean at that pressure. Problem is, where are you gonna find that info when you are in the store looking at a mostly empty powder shelf, but you see a can of CFE BLK and wonder if it'll work for your cast boolits in your 30 cal. rifle? Add to that, new powders tend to be designed for a specific use. To burn clean at a specific pressure range. Maybe that range is narrow, and maybe not? Maybe someone has used it for other purposes than what it was designed for and maybe they wrote an article or maybe not?
How does a new reloader find this info ...I don't know?

Besides the clean burn, there is the pressure curve. Each powder will have it's own pressure curve. The sharper rise of the curve, the more chance to deform a Lead bullet base. There is lots more to this, I ain't prepared to type it all right now

[MT Gianni]

I would get a good manual and take pictures of data. That way when you're at a shop and it has something in stock, pull up your phone and see if you can use it.

[WALLNUTT]

Most powder manufacturers have data on web sites. Check them for applications of powders for your cartridges.

[Larry Gibson]

I was hoping Larry Gibson would comment, and if I may without hijacking the thread, how do you arrive at cast loads with the 4064/4831 burn ranges. I think the OP as well as others would find this informative. Example do you start with jacketed data and where do go from there.
Tony

With the 311/314299 cast bullet in the .308W or the 30-06 using extruded powders in the 4064 to 4831 range I suggest starting at 30 gr in the .308W and 32 gr in the 30-06. That is what I do but I also use a dacron filler and suggest it's use with those slower powders. I work up in 1/2 gr increments using 10 shot groups at 100 yards. Max load will be when accuracy goes south which occurs sooner, at a lower velocity, with a 10" twist. That is why a 12" twist .308W will, invariably, give the same accuracy at a higher velocity than a 10" twist 30-06 or a 10" twist .308W.

[DougGuy]

OP, you haven't given much to work with, no calibers, no boolit weights, not even a gun description. There really isn't any specific "cast" powders. ALL powder has A. a burn rate B. a recommended pressure range C. the ability to kill or maim you or bystanders should you exceed manufacturer's recommended applications or parameters.

What you are asking is like "What's best to start a fire with, lighter fluid or charcoal starter?"

99.9% of posts asking for data list calibers and boolit weights. It would be VERY helpful if you list those specifics in your original post.

[bbogue1]

Great question and great discussion. For those who don't know, The third edition of the Cast Bullet Handbook is available in the files section of Bullet Casting: The Art of The Alloy facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/664726383692036/files. While you are there download Fryxels Book "From Ingot yo Target" Both are excellent books.

[toallmy]

Although it could be considered a waste because of the bulk of powder used I like my slower powders in 3030-308-3006 for what I consider longer range 3-4 hundred yards . As recommended by Larry a few years ago , I keep 4064/4350/4831 on hand .
Although most of my fun light shooting is loaded with unique / red dot / green dot / herco And such .
Pay attention to what Was mentioned earlier about using fillers .

[Wolfdog91]

I would get a good manual and take pictures of data. That way when you're at a shop and it has something in stock, pull up your phone and see if you can use it.

Got the newest Hornady , two old serrias ,the new serria on my phone and I can look lmoat stuff up pretty quick but finding cast data is different

[Thumbcocker]

Lyman cast bullet manual.

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[Wolfdog91]

OP, you haven't given much to work with, no calibers, no boolit weights, not even a gun description. There really isn't any specific "cast" powders. ALL powder has A. a burn rate B. a recommended pressure range C. the ability to kill or maim you or bystanders should you exceed manufacturer's recommended applications or parameters.

What you are asking is like "What's best to start a fire with, lighter fluid or charcoal starter?"

99.9% of posts asking for data list calibers and boolit weights. It would be VERY helpful if you list those specifics in your original post.
I did that purposely again not looking for a specific powder or the best. Just what to look for in a powder.
Ok say I stuck you in front of a rack of powders and and said find one that would be good for shooting cast rifle boolits in ....idk the 30cal range. What would be things you look for in that powder that would be favorable towards being used for cast rifle ?

[Wolfdog91]

Lyman cast bullet manual.

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Yep got one , haven't seen most of the powders in the for a bit

[Wolfdog91]

After thinking about this, I'll update my previous post.

Most powders are designed to burn clean at a certain pressure. The kernels are treated with a recipe of deterrents and flow agents to achieve that goal. Red dot is the exception, not coated, that why it burns so fast, but also will burn clean at lower pressures as well as higher pressures.

So, what does that mean?
Typically we shoot cast boolits at lower pressures than we would shoot jacketed boolits (but not always). If you have an idea of what pressure you want to load a cast boolit to, you can look for a powder that burns clean at that pressure. Problem is, where are you gonna find that info when you are in the store looking at a mostly empty powder shelf, but you see a can of CFE BLK and wonder if it'll work for your cast boolits in your 30 cal. rifle? Add to that, new powders tend to be designed for a specific use. To burn clean at a specific pressure range. Maybe that range is narrow, and maybe not? Maybe someone has used it for other purposes than what it was designed for and maybe they wrote an article or maybe not?
How does a new reloader find this info ...I don't know?

Besides the clean burn, there is the pressure curve. Each powder will have it's own pressure curve. The sharper rise of the curve, the more chance to deform a Lead bullet base. There is lots more to this, I ain't prepared to type it all right now

Interesting this is what I was referring to when I asked about favorable characteristics. So say I look at that cart that shows working pressures of different bhn's / alloys I can cross reference that with the powders Information right ?
So say the pressure curve at a given weight is less then the working pressure of my alloy, that would be favorable right?

[Wolfdog91]

Although it could be considered a waste because of the bulk of powder used I like my slower powders in 3030-308-3006 for what I consider longer range 3-4 hundred yards . As recommended by Larry a few years ago , I keep 4064/4350/4831 on hand .
Although most of my fun light shooting is loaded with unique / red dot / green dot / herco And such .
Pay attention to what Was mentioned earlier about using fillers .

Yep fillers is looking like the route I think I'm gonna go

[Thumbcocker]

Why don't we start with what you want to shoot and how you want to shoot it.

.30 cal rifles?

Paper punching and can killing?

Ok bullseye, red dot, promo, 700x, unique, etc. Low velocity but will kill a can grave yard dead.

Moving up in power in .30 cal rifle

2400, 4227, 4198, Reloader 7 etc.

Hunting?

3031, 4895, etc.

You are in a tough spot due to circumstances beyond your control. Alliant powders are pretty much non-existent right now. My reaction has been to grab powder as I could. Last gunshow I grabbed an 8 pound can of 231 because it was there. I only use it in .45 acp but I know it will work in almost any pistol round.

Later I scored 8 pounds of 4198. Never used it but from reading lots of cast boolit stuff I knew it would work in lots of rifle loads at medium speed.


So I guess what you should look for us a powder that the manuals list in as many loads as possible in the cartridges you want to load. Heck make a list of what works and keep it with you so you can pounce on powder if you see it.

A lot of responses have talked to you about their favorite powders. Maybe we need to look at what will work and go from there. I don't know how long it will be before we walk into the gun shop and grab a can of our favorite powder.

If I have misunderstood your question I apologize.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[reddog81]

I did that purposely again not looking for a specific powder or the best. Just what to look for in a powder.
Ok say I stuck you in front of a rack of powders and and said find one that would be good for shooting cast rifle boolits in ....idk the 30cal range. What would be things you look for in that powder that would be favorable towards being used for cast rifle ?

There's generally not much info given on a bottle of powder nor can you glean much info from reading the generic description that the manufacturers put out. It'll be much easier to just reference the appropriate reloading data. Some of the generic burn rate charts will help you determine which powders might work for certain calibers but there will still be wide variation depending on whether you want barn burner loads, soft loads, light bullets, heavy bullets, etc.

Vihtavouri has a nice app. Hodgdon has a decent website with their powders along with IMR and WIN. Western has a reloading guide you can access on your phone and so on. These can all be referenced while viewing you local selection of powders. If you find a powder that you think might work in a certain scenario throw the combo into google and see what kind of results others are getting.

Unfortunately there's no quick and easy magically list of cast bullet powders.

[Cast_outlaw]

I did that purposely again not looking for a specific powder or the best. Just what to look for in a powder.
Ok say I stuck you in front of a rack of powders and and said find one that would be good for shooting cast rifle boolits in ....idk the 30cal range. What would be things you look for in that powder that would be favorable towards being used for cast rifle ?

Maybe it would be good if you could list the powders that are available to you, give us something to work with here. your question is very vague and, you will not get the answer your looking for. as you have noticed, we have been repeating the same powders over and over. so through us a bone or maybe just some gristle

[Wolfdog91]

https://i.postimg.cc/yDTSVxKD/Screenshot-20211216-201421.png (https://postimg.cc/yDTSVxKD)
https://www.brownells.com/reloading/powder/index.htm?avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=In%2bStock&f_a=1



Well this is Brownells current in stock selection. They seem to be the most stable but even then they seem to change at least twice or so a weeks

https://i.postimg.cc/PLrvNHf2/Screenshot-20211216-201430.png (https://postimg.cc/PLrvNHf2)

https://i.postimg.cc/CR0qTD3y/Screenshot-20211216-201440.png (https://postimg.cc/CR0qTD3y)

[poppy42]

Unique is the universal powder! I don’t think there’s too many things you can’t load with unique. Are use it from 30 yards 6 to 9 mm Makarov, and a lot in between. Win 231/HP38 (exact same powder),red dot ( be careful of double loads), Titegroup, (good seems to be one of the least expensive powders in my area at least. Personally I find it cand be dirty in light loads.

[Rickf1985]

5744 and Buffalo rifle which are the same thing are the ones I think are the best for all around cast loading if you do not want to have 25 powders laying around, as I don't. They can shoot very reduced loads without danger all the way up to maximum loads. They can also work in everything from 223 up to at least 30-06 which is the largest I have. But, apparently everyone has figured out the correlation between the two powders and I have not seen Buffalo rifle powder for 6-8 months. 5744 used to bee dirt cheap compared to other powders and now it is priced above other powders. When you can find it. Wolfdog, Check out Everglades, they usually have a good selection of powder albeit a bit pricey. They are not all that far from you I don't think.

[Toolmaker TN]

https://i.postimg.cc/yDTSVxKD/Screenshot-20211216-201421.png (https://postimg.cc/yDTSVxKD)
https://www.brownells.com/reloading/powder/index.htm?avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=In%2bStock&f_a=1



Well this is Brownells current in stock selection. They seem to be the most stable but even then they seem to change at least twice or so a weeks

https://i.postimg.cc/PLrvNHf2/Screenshot-20211216-201430.png (https://postimg.cc/PLrvNHf2)

https://i.postimg.cc/CR0qTD3y/Screenshot-20211216-201440.png (https://postimg.cc/CR0qTD3y)

In looking at the pics you posted, the powders that jump out at me would be IMR-4227, W748, and 5744 for cast. 4227 is a powder that's been around a long time for cast loads. 5744 has a lot of load data; although I've never had very good luck with it personally, a lot of people do.
W748 is in a very good medium burn rate powder. There is data in the Lyman cast bullet handbook (3rd edition).
As has been stated by others, it's best if you look at the calibers you're shooting, and what you want them to do. Light loads? Barn burners? Plinking? Hunting?
One of the best powders out there IMO is H4895. It can be loaded to full power, or loaded down following Hodgdon's formula available on their website.

[Thumbcocker]

4227 and 5744 would be a good place to start.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Interesting this is what I was referring to when I asked about favorable characteristics. So say I look at that cart that shows working pressures of different bhn's / alloys I can cross reference that with the powders Information right ?
So say the pressure curve at a given weight is less then the working pressure of my alloy, that would be favorable right?

not exactly.
you need to include your application details in the calculation.
as to pressure curve, some shapes are more conducive to cast boolits, and some are not.

[8mmFan]

This has turned into a great thread. I’ve enjoyed it a lot.

Put me firmly in the camp of “wish I’d settled on three or four powders that would cover pretty much everything, and just loaded up on those.”

As Don said, chasing that super-optimal accuracy load for several rifle powders left me with “a little o’ this and a little o’ that.”

4350 or 4064 for jacketed in my hunting rifles, Red Dot for cast rifle, and Unique/Bullseye/Green Dot for pistol/shotgun would’ve covered me for life. I should have gotten while the gottening was good, with just those.

Lessons learned for “next time.”

8mmFan

[dverna]

8mmFan,

Once I figured out I was on the wrong track, I put together a list of 'core' powders that will do everything I ever need done. They are:

Promo (Red Dot)
Unique
Clean Shot...just because I had a 7 jugs of it, but anything like HP-38 would do
H4895
Varget

In hindsight, Varget was a poor choice as it became very difficult to find. But I had done a lot of load development with it, and it was very accurate. I only have 26 lbs left and when things get back to normal will work up loads with 4064 and stock up on it.

The other 20+ powders I have are OK but not necessary.

[Wolfdog91]

This has kinda become what I was trying to avoid honestly, thanks for all the suggestions y'all but I'm still pretty much on square one with alot of them. I can't get alot if that

[charlie b]

8mmFan,

Once I figured out I was on the wrong track, I put together a list of 'core' powders that will do everything I ever need done. They are:

Promo (Red Dot)
Unique
Clean Shot...just because I had a 7 jugs of it, but anything like HP-38 would do
H4895
Varget

In hindsight, Varget was a poor choice as it became very difficult to find. But I had done a lot of load development with it, and it was very accurate. I only have 26 lbs left and when things get back to normal will work up loads with 4064 and stock up on it.

The other 20+ powders I have are OK but not necessary.

26lb of Varget would last me about 5 years :)

[reddog81]

This has kinda become what I was trying to avoid honestly, thanks for all the suggestions y'all but I'm still pretty much on square one with alot of them. I can't get alot if that

That's because there is no list of characteristics that universally goes well with cast bullets. Even if there was a list, trying to cross reference that list with available powders and compatible cartridges would still be 3 data points and more work than cross referencing available powders and published load data. Generally if someone like Lyman or Hodgdons online manual is listing powder charges with lead bullets it's because the combination works.

[mdi]

This has kinda become what I was trying to avoid honestly, thanks for all the suggestions y'all but I'm still pretty much on square one with alot of them. I can't get alot if that
I'll butt in again. I believe Wolf may be looking for info on powder characteristics/attributes for cast boolit use (correct me if I'm wrong Wolf). Not specific caliber, not specific pressure/velocity, not what someone used. Just what characteristics (burn speed, flame temp, pressure curve, etc.) are best for cast boolits...

I haen't done much reserch, mainly just my testing with various powders' performance in my guns, my loads, with my cast boolits, normally with al bullets.

[dverna]

In general, any powder used for 12 ga shotgun loading will work in any pistol or rifle with reduced charges. That powder, will not provide the optimum performance but a useful and serviceable load. Using such a powder will not require a filler or Dacron.

It will not cycle your AR 5.56, but will perform safely.

That is about as simple as it gets.

If you have an hour, take the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and a sheet of paper. On the sheet of paper make two columns....one for shotgun powders...one for other powders

Select all the calibers you currently own and the calibers you may purchase in the next 10 years

Look at all the load data for each bullet in each caliber. If, for example, the data shows 6 loads with SG powders record 6, and if 4 loads with other powders record 4.

[PopcornSutton]

Speaking to the 30 caliber rifle crowd, I have tested many powders. I shoot anywhere from 175 to 200 grain cast powder coated. I look for complete burning, good velocity, somewhere in the 1800-2000 range. Pistol powders do not group well for me. Maybe it's the small charge and powder positioning in the case, but it varies too much. Slower powder, in the IMR8208, N135, Varget, don't seem to build enough pressure to seal off the case in the chamber, and powder residue traveled down past the shoulder on the case. So I looked to meet in the middle, and I found good success with H4198, H322, RL10, RL7. Whichever your gun likes in that powder range worked reasonably well. For some reason I never could get IMR 3031 to work for me???? Try a series of powder charges, 1/2 grain up and down, and seating depths, in or out, to fine tune your load.

[Wolfdog91]

That's because there is no list of characteristics that universally goes well with cast bullets. Even if there was a list, trying to cross reference that list with available powders and compatible cartridges would still be 3 data points and more work than cross referencing available powders and published load data. Generally if someone like Lyman or Hodgdons online manual is listing powder charges with lead bullets it's because the combination works.

Well there has to be something, like what do guys who go off the books when making loads look for ? I know it's basically a sin in the cast community to go off the books but for the people who do what are they looking at?

[blackthorn]

Quote Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
That's because there is no list of characteristics that universally goes well with cast bullets. Even if there was a list, trying to cross reference that list with available powders and compatible cartridges would still be 3 data points and more work than cross referencing available powders and published load data. Generally if someone like Lyman or Hodgdons online manual is listing powder charges with lead bullets it's because the combination works.


Well there has to be something, like what do guys who go off the books when making loads look for ? I know it's basically a sin in the cast community to go off the books but for the people who do what are they looking at?

Well---I have never found myself in your position and have always been able to find suitable loads for the powders I have in one of the many manuals I have. That said, if I were in your position i think I would start by researching as many powder charts as I could find and start cross-referencing them to see what powders were in close proximity to the powder(s) I have. Once that was accomplished I would look in the manuals for a powder that was listed for use in my firearm and start low and work up. Keeping in mind that I have never had to try this method, the only question I would then ask is how close on the comparable burn rate charts is "close enough"?

[Maven]

I know it's basically a sin in the cast community to go off the books but for the people who do what are they looking at?...Wolfdog

Actually, the CB community has been rather creative in using propellants not intended for CB or even CB rifle applications, e.g., C.E. Harris' use of Red Dot (13gr.) and 2400 (16gr.) as universal CB loads in .30cal. rifles. To answer your question directly, we look for accuracy, safe pressure, low if not consistent standard deviation in velocity and economy, but I'm sure we'd trade the first two for a bit less economy. In our efforts to achieve those goals, it certainly helps to have a chronograph and a notebook to record your results.

[fredj338]

It depends on what you want to do with your cast bullets. If you want min vel for punching paper, then faster powders will work fine. If you want to drive your cast at jacketed vel, then you may need a slower powder. I shoot a lot of PC lead & in magnums or 10mm or 357sig, I use the same powders I would shoot jacketed with. For my service calibers I shoot faster powders because I dont need max vel for practice or competition.

[Three44s]

The short answer is there is no short answer.

The long answer is it depends and with shortages it becomes a very nettlesome path to get a great powder right off the bat.

Individual guns are different and the conditioning or lack of can greatly affect how it performs.

Then we factor in bullet alloy, lube and the whole loading regime and we have not even considered which cartridge yet. So again, what cartridge, what regime (fast, slow?) and we can get some traction.

There is not a simple litmus test for a good cast boolit powder.

Best regards

Three44s

[reddog81]

Well there has to be something, like what do guys who go off the books when making loads look for ? I know it's basically a sin in the cast community to go off the books but for the people who do what are they looking at?

Choose a combination that is closest to your desired outcome and test. Use of a chronograph is advised.

I shoot 300 BLK in a Ruger American Ranch. I wanted subsonic plinker loads so I did some research and saw that the case is about the same size as a .38 Special / .357 Mag case and the pressure limit is about double, so there's a pretty good safety margin. Tested 5, 5.5, 6 grains of Unique and N340 for velocity. Both powders had very similar velocities for the respective charges and came in about 1000, 1050, and 1100 FPS. I now use either 5.5 Unique or N340 with cast bullets in the 180 to 200 grain range for cheap and easy to shoot loads in that gun. You aren't going to find that load data anywhere but it basically turns the gun into 30 round .38 Special rifle.

A lot depends on what you're looking to do, how much time or money you're willing to put into it, and how much risk you are willing to take.

[1hole]

Wolf, when I started loading back about 1958, I was darn near penniless.

Being "penniless" hasn't changed much for buying reloading components. In 1958 a pound of typical powder cost about $2.50. (I still have a very long time empty can of Unique with that price on it.) Inflation would make that equal to $28-30 today. So, overlooking today's foolish franic-panic buying anything at any cost, the old vs. the valid new prices weren't nearly as good as it may sound.

Today's ratio of old money vs. current salaries also apply. It was very easy for a young family man to find himself penniless at a gun store in those days even IF he could find the rare one with a few components to sell.

[gwpercle]

The short answer is there is no short answer.

The long answer is it depends and with shortages it becomes a very nettlesome path to get a great powder right off the bat.

Individual guns are different and the conditioning or lack of can greatly affect how it performs.

Then we factor in bullet alloy, lube and the whole loading regime and we have not even considered which cartridge yet. So again, what cartridge, what regime (fast, slow?) and we can get some traction.

There is not a simple litmus test for a good cast boolit powder.

Best regards

Three44s

This post by Three44's pretty much sums it up ... well said .
Let me add ... surround yourself with 4 to 6 loading manuals and compare what powders keep being used with what bullets ant what velocities ... it gives you a good idea of what powder to use in which caliber and with what bullet .
The labs do a lot of testing and the published data is there to be interpreted ...
if a powder is never shown in 6 loading manuals for say 38 Special ... then it's not suited for loading 38 special .
That's the best advice I've got on picking powders ...and not being able to find "THE" powder you want just adds to the problem ! But don't throw in the towel just keep on Loading what you can get .
Gary

[murf205]

Wolfy, I keep seeing a reference to Varget and 4064, which is about as hard to find as hens teeth today, but all my bench rest buddies are telling me that IMR 4166 behaves like Varget in their rifles and I have had very good results with it in my 223 bolt gun and 69 gr Sierra's. It is very close in burn rate to Varget and 4064 and there is data available for it and ir is not NEARLY as scarce as the holy grail called Varget. Keep your eye peeled for a pound.