358-429 HP -- What speed and alloy?

[Buck Shot]

Hey, all,

Miha at MP molds just emailed me to tell me their 358-429 Keith style HP mold is back in stock, so I bought one (I ordered the plain base version). I'd like to use this boolit for short-range deer hunting and SD in my 357 revolver.

https://i.ibb.co/YfP4TPJ/358-429.jpg

Can anyone tell me what alloy you use, and what velocity you typically shoot for, for using such a boolit out of a 5" revolver? I would like to get good expansion of the HP for deer hunting at 25-50 yds. Also, are there any particular powders that really stand out?

Sorry if these are common questions but I'm fairly new to bullet casting and shooting cast boolits. Thanks in advance for any info.

[zarrinvz24]

I think Elmer had a lot more experience than most even in today's era. He felt that 1200-1250 fps and 1:16 Tin/Lead was about as close to perfection as one could desire. Funny enough nearly 100 years later we are asking the same questions and finding the same answers to the questions. 1:16 is a nice elastic alloy that will allow it to mushroom and still retain nearly all its weight. As always, bullet placement is key.

One thing to advise you of regarding this boolit in .357Mag for SD is that there is a very real possibility of overpenetrating with this load. It will make an excellent hunting choice, but for SD I'd recommend one of the jacketed 125gr loads, like GoldDots - the engineering that has gone into these to ensure 100% energy expended into 18" is well worth the price. Buy a box, shoot about half so you know how it shoots and where it its, and then save the rest for carry. I lik nickel brass for this purpose.

[Buck Shot]

Thank you Zarrinvz24, sounds like that's exactly the info I need to know. I appreciate your help.

[ABJ]

The deep HP will start to expand around 900 in 20:1 and any faster will limit penetration. I agree with Zarrinvz, 16:1 at 1150/1200 should be about right. If I wanted to use the 20:1 at that speed I would only use the cup point. In self defense mode the 20:1 with the deep HP I would be comfortable with in an urban setting.
Tony

[Buck Shot]

Thank you ABJ, that makes sense.

[358429]

Make sure that the loaded overall length fits the cylinder without poking out past the end.

I trim some of my 357 mag to 1.22" and the overall length comes in right around 1.6 and fits my j frame and rifle.

I filed the lee cutter pin guess and check to hit the target length.

I size the bullets so they pass through the cylinder with one fingertips light pressure on a bic pen. Make sure all chamber mouths are the same.

For the 357 guns I size 357. For my taurus 38 special I size 358.

38 special accuracy loads I have found with 3 grains ww231, red dot, tight group, ten grains 4227.

357 accuracy loads I have found ww296 start at 15 grains, imr4227 start at 12.5 grains and work up.


I am target shooting not hunting. The 296 loads clock average 1075-1105 ft/s from the 2.25" j frame. I am using the deepest hollowpoint pins and my alloy the bullets scale approximately 155 grains.

Hope this helps.
Be safe.

[Buck Shot]

This is all good helpful information, thank you 358429 ... was kind of hoping you'd weigh in.

On a related note, I just found some H110 in stock at PV...I should play the lottery!

[gwpercle]

I'm looking at Elmer's 1936 book on reloading Revolver Cartridges .
He recommends :
1 part tin / 20 parts lead up to 1,000 fps
1 part tin / 16 parts lead over 1, 000 fps

But ... this was with plain based , uncoated and with 1930's bullet lube boolits .
You have a leg up on the deal ... A Gas Check , possibly coating but at least realy good modern bullet lube ... therefore you might easily use 1/20 in that HP boolit.
Another good alloy that expands on game is 50-50 mix Clip On Wheel Weights and Soft Lead (range scrap or stick on wheel weights) ...this works well in hunting loads and is easy to mix , if you have wheel weights .
Powders in hunting loads Elmer favored 2400 but now we also have H110 , Acc #7 , Acc #9 , all very good for heavy hunting loads ... look for them all - buy what ever you can get !
Gary

[358429]

Forget to mention: I am also powdercoating to protect against leading. I

use eastwood clear and ford light blue so far with excellent results. Others use smokes powders with excellent results.

Side note...The j frame with those hollow pointed ww296 mag loads smacks the

ar500 plate wayy harder than my buddies 1911 shooting regular 230 grain ball.

I would try whatever lead you have and test for accuracy and leading if fill out and detail are good.

That mold also likes to run really hot for function, and polishing the pins on a wire

wheel or steel wool #0000 is helpful if they stick to the pins. Periodically while casting

Wipe the mold with a clean cotton rag with synthetic two cycle oil dabbed onto it

To wipe off tinning or lead smears, and to provide lubrication.

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. Buck Shot- I use this bullet in my .38/44 Smith & Wesson 5 1/2" Heavy Duty revolver; my mold is the Lyman 358439 hollow point version and also the solid 358429 version in 1:16 alloy. I can't shoot these bullets in my .357 Model 27 as the cylinder is too short to accommodate them, but they work fine in the .38 Special Heavy Duty. Maybe the Miha mold has been altered to have a shorter nose than the Lyman bullets so as to fit in all .357 Magnum chambers but if not you may have troubles using this bullet in many .357 magnum revolvers. At any rate for the .38/44 so far I have loaded for 1000 fps with 6 grains of Unique (unsafe for standard .38 Specials) and plan to work on Power Pistol, 2400, and HS-6 powder loads also in order to get up to 1100 fps or above. For the .357 Magnum I will work with the shorter Lyman 358156 bullets. Good luck, Bob

[NEKVT]

Make sure that the loaded overall length fits the cylinder without poking out past the end.

I trim some of my 357 mag to 1.22" and the overall length comes in right around 1.6 and fits my j frame and rifle.

I filed the lee cutter pin guess and check to hit the target length.

I size the bullets so they pass through the cylinder with one fingertips light pressure on a bic pen. Make sure all chamber mouths are the same.

For the 357 guns I size 357. For my taurus 38 special I size 358.

38 special accuracy loads I have found with 3 grains ww231, red dot, tight group, ten grains 4227.

357 accuracy loads I have found ww296 start at 15 grains, imr4227 start at 12.5 grains and work up.


I am target shooting not hunting. The 296 loads clock average 1075-1105 ft/s from the 2.25" j frame. I am using the deepest hollowpoint pins and my alloy the bullets scale approximately 155 grains.

Hope this helps.
Be safe.

Thanks for this info. Been wanting to try the 358429 in cut down 357 cases in my 1894C. You saved me the trim and measure exercise. Also thought 4227 might end up being the accuracy load without pushing the plain base boolit too fast. And have a Ruger 357 LCR to try it in as well.

[Buck Shot]

Mr. Buck Shot- I use this bullet in my .38/44 Smith & Wesson 5 1/2" Heavy Duty revolver; my mold is the Lyman 358439 hollow point version and also the solid 358429 version in 1:16 alloy. I can't shoot these bullets in my .357 Model 27 as the cylinder is too short to accommodate them, but they work fine in the .38 Special Heavy Duty. Maybe the Miha mold has been altered to have a shorter nose than the Lyman bullets so as to fit in all .357 Magnum chambers but if not you may have troubles using this bullet in many .357 magnum revolvers. At any rate for the .38/44 so far I have loaded for 1000 fps with 6 grains of Unique (unsafe for standard .38 Specials) and plan to work on Power Pistol, 2400, and HS-6 powder loads also in order to get up to 1100 fps or above. For the .357 Magnum I will work with the shorter Lyman 358156 bullets. Good luck, Bob

Thank you sir. I'll be using these in a GP-100...I did not think about the "too long" issue...I hope it doesn't cause me problems! Looks like my cylinder is about 1.609" long, and the gap between cylinder and barrel is 6 or 8 mils if I recall right...

[metricmonkeywrench]

My true Lyman 358439HP (and it newer brother the 358429HP) come in at right around 150g or so matching what i found in the old references (Lyman #40 i think)

there is also a great write up here:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell38KeithHP358439.htm

[rintinglen]

Lymans data in the #3 Cast Bullet Handbook for the 358-429 is based on an OAL of 1.590, achieved by crimping on the forward edge of the front driving band. This should work in any 357 revolver.

[Buck Shot]

Lymans data in the #3 Cast Bullet Handbook for the 358-429 is based on an OAL of 1.590, achieved by crimping on the forward edge of the front driving band. This should work in any 357 revolver.

Thanks, Rintinglen, good to know. And even if I did run into problems with length, in a worst-case scenario, I could always trim (and segregate) my 357 cases to a length that would both allow crimping into the crimping groove and not interfere with cylinder rotation ... then reduce charge appropriately and work back up to a load that works that way, right? Not ideal, I know, but since I'd only be using these in one firearm...

[358429]

Buck shot that bullet was designed to be easily loaded and shot in 38 special brass with no work arounds needed.

Do you have a bunch of 38 brass preferably r-p or federal or anything else with thin walls so it's easy to work with?

Can you safely work up a 38+P or 38/44 outdoorsman type of loading and keep them away from 38 special revolvers?

[Buck Shot]

Buck shot that bullet was designed to be easily loaded and shot in 38 special brass with no work arounds needed.

Do you have a bunch of 38 brass preferably r-p or federal or anything else with thin walls so it's easy to work with?

Can you safely work up a 38+P or 38/44 outdoorsman type of loading and keep them away from 38 special revolvers?

Thanks, 358429, good to know that's an option. I would prefer to stick to 357 cases if possible, though... golly, just checked the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and saw under bullet 358429 that the H110 load is "potentially the most accurate load"...and I just lucked onto some H110 this week. I really DO need to play the lottery. :)

[358429]

Hey buck shot what kind of expander are you using to open the case mouths?

I use the lee universal expander, been thinking about noe bushings, not sure which one I should get.

[Buck Shot]

Hey buck shot what kind of expander are you using to open the case mouths?

I use the lee universal expander, been thinking about noe bushings, not sure which one I should get.

I've just been using the one that came with my RCBS 3-die set so far, although all I've really loaded is WCs and SWCs for 38 Spl. Haven't loaded up any 357 stuff yet, and it appears my mold is tied up with the gendarmeries in Charles De Gaulle Airport, maybe they'll come after me for trying to import "munitions." :shock:

[megasupermagnum]

Good, you have the 5" GP100, Lipsey's special. I have two, one in 327 federal, and one in 357 magnum. They are easily my favorite model of any revolver. They will handle a cartridge OAL of about 1.650", and with this bullet crimped in 357 magnum brass, mine are 1.645". A touch longer wouldn't hurt, but I like a little safety margin for bullet pull.

I also love the 358429 in any 357 magnum, and my GP100 loves them. I have the NOE version. Besides the flat point, mine has a shallow HP which is probably closest to your cup point, and a deep HP, which is bigger than your large HP. As stated, the large HP's expand like mad. They are just the ticket for 38 special, or a snub nose 357 magnum. For your purposes, you are going to want either the cup point or the shallow HP.

Cast of 20:1, my shallow HP, which is close to your cup point, shot with 10 gr Bluedot for about 1225 fps, produces what amounts to a rivet. I've shot them into dirt, water, and wood, and all three show a bullet that expands to about .45" rivet, but does not fold open like a mushroom. This is a great choice for a combo of both expansion and penetration. The more animals I hunt, the less interested in penetration I become. Your shallow HP is very similar in profile to the bullet I use in 327 federal, and that bullet performs very well. Honestly you can't go wrong, but either your cup or shallow HP is going to do what you want the best in my opinion. Cast them of a lead-tin alloy, 20:1 or 16:1 being great choices. A lead-tin-antimony alloy can work, but you have to be more careful that they don't become brittle. Binary alloys are simple, and their toughness can not be beat. Velocity wise, I'd say keep it at least 1100 fps to ensure expansion, but you can't drive them fast enough to cause a problem with over expansion. The fastest I can get in my GP100 was 1350 fps with H110 and 300-MP but at that level, you may not get good accuracy. Or maybe you will.

Use the following loads at your own risk.

For loads I know work well, I like 10 gr bluedot, about 1225 fps. Many also report good results with 9.5 gr bluedot. I use a Federal standard primer. 15 gr H110 is another good load, close to the same speed, about 1250 fps. I used CCI magnum primers with H110. Since Hodgdon has decided to get so weird, I'm currently trying to move away from their powders. Alliants 300-MP is a powder I'm currently working with. I'm finding good accuracy at 17.5 gr for about 1240 fps, but a consistent problem I'm finding with this powder is high velocity ES's of 70-80 fps. Despite that, they shoot good on target. I think more trials with different primers is needed.

[Buck Shot]

That's all great information, thank you very much, Megasupermagnum. Yeah, the 5" GP100 just feels so right to me, seems like the perfect barrel length for that piece. Mine is the Davidson's version, though (not the Lipsey) -- Model 1740 in SS.

I appreciate all the info you (and other posters) have provided. This is all going into my notes file.

[Groundpounder17]

I'm interested in how you end up liking your MP mold. I was considering the MP vs NOE mold, but in the GC version.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm interested in how you end up liking your MP mold. I was considering the MP vs NOE mold, but in the GC version.

I love the Keith bullet, but even I'll admit that if you are trying to wring every last bit of performance out as you can with a soft alloy, a gas check is a great thing. If you are trying to get the most out of a GP100 that you possibly can, it is going to be hard to beat the NOE 358-195-HP-U6, and either crimp with the Lee collet crimp die, or trim your brass about .050".

[358429]

I love the Keith bullet, but even I'll admit that if you are trying to wring every last bit of performance out as you can with a soft alloy, a gas check is a great thing. If you are trying to get the most out of a GP100 that you possibly can, it is going to be hard to beat the NOE 358-195-HP-U6, and either crimp with the Lee collet crimp die, or trim your brass about .050".That 358-195-HP-U6 bullet looks really good, can you tell more about how you use it?

I have a hungry ruger 77/357 rotary mag bolt action rifle with a new old stock simmons 4x shotgun scope that I am feeding...

[megasupermagnum]

I do not have that exact bullet. I had Mountain Molds make me one, but I had the crimp groove so it is right for my GP100. It weighs 220 grains as a solid, and is .827" long, so slightly longer than the NOE bullet. It is not a bullet I'd recommend for general purpose shooting, which is what the Keith is best at. It is a special bullet to maximize all you can get. Out of my 5" GP100, I've passed 1200 fps with no pressure signs. Mine is a solid, but that NOE version with a HP would be one sweet deer or bear bullet.

[358429]

I just ladle cast a bunch of deep hollow point 358429 plain base bullets on a saucepan over turkey fryer, right now, with my (90/5/5 approximate) newest batch of metal.

They are very frosty and I expect the powder coat will get excellent coverage.

[megasupermagnum]

Lyman #2 alloy is not what you would want for a HP bullet for deer, but I assume you know that. With the deep HP, they should have quite the effect on coyote if you shoot them fast enough for the bullet to fragment.

[358429]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/53b98fd9f2297cc8012f349a9abf3062.jpg

[358429]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211218/dbf0d185df76d071cafebdda3880370d.jpg

My toaster is preheating[emoji41]

[Groundpounder17]

I love the Keith bullet, but even I'll admit that if you are trying to wring every last bit of performance out as you can with a soft alloy, a gas check is a great thing. If you are trying to get the most out of a GP100 that you possibly can, it is going to be hard to beat the NOE 358-195-HP-U6, and either crimp with the Lee collet crimp die, or trim your brass about .050".

I’m unfamiliar with this mould, but you have me interested. It wouldn’t be fired through a GP100 though. It will be fed to a 6” python. How’s the length of this?

[megasupermagnum]

I’m unfamiliar with this mould, but you have me interested. It wouldn’t be fired through a GP100 though. It will be fed to a 6” python. How’s the length of this?

I went into more detail in post #25, but the short answer is to simply seat it however it needs to be, and crimp with the Lee collet crimp die.

[JohnH]

Hey buck shot what kind of expander are you using to open the case mouths?

I use the lee universal expander, been thinking about noe bushings, not sure which one I should get.

Not Buck Shot, but about 2 months back I bought the NOE 360x356 expander as I use Al's 358429 in 38 Special cases (I got the .360 mold, my cylinder throats are .359) for my plinking and was not getting satisfactory alignment on seating with just the Lee Universal Flaring tool and the stock expanding plug in the powder thru die. Replaced the flareing tool with the NOE expanding plug and it has made all the difference in the world in smooth seating unskint boolits. The expander plug was money well spent

[megasupermagnum]

Not Buck Shot, but about 2 months back I bought the NOE 360x356 expander as I use Al's 358429 in 38 Special cases (I got the .360 mold, my cylinder throats are .359) for my plinking and was not getting satisfactory alignment on seating with just the Lee Universal Flaring tool and the stock expanding plug in the powder thru die. Replaced the flareing tool with the NOE expanding plug and it has made all the difference in the world in smooth seating unskint boolits. The expander plug was money well spent

I've had the completely opposite results. The Lee flare dies provide perfect alignment without shaving lead, but they don't expand the case very far down for our purposes. The NOE plugs expand the case a long ways down, but their "expanding" is useless to me. It kind of works... sometimes. Mostly I just end up shaving a bunch of lead, getting frustrated, and run all the cases through the Lee die to properly expand them. I did end up modifying one of NOE's plugs to a far greater design. I should send them the details and see if they will make a run of those.

[Buck Shot]

Finally tried casting with this mold today. I'm fairly new to casting and have never tried a HP mold, but holy cow, I had a devil of a time with the boolits sticking to the HP pins. Had to use pliers to get them off. Didn't get a single properly formed bullet to come off the HP pins without pliers. Abandoned the effort to read more. I see Miha suggests coating the pins with graphite, I'll have to try that. I also hear running the pot at a hotter than normal temperature can also help... that said, my pot was at 800°F and I still was having trouble (from what I've read, I should try to keep this lead-tin alloy at 700°F if possible to slow down tin oxidation) ... will report back when I have better news. Thanks again to all.

[358429]

Hey Buck Shot disassemble the pins off the mold and polish them lightly with a wire wheel

Or steel wool works too it's just so slow

Put it back together get your mold really hot
Then cast away periodically wiping lead smears away with the oiled cloth.

[Forrest r]

Typically I run the casting pot @ 725* when casting with the mp brass molds that have hp/hb pins in them. Used to use a thermometer and switched to pid controller, huge difference!!!

I also pre-heat the molds hot, real hot. They get hot enough so that the sprue puddle takes to the count of 10+ to solidify. This does 2 things, keeps the bullets from sticking on the cold pins (actually the pins will not be cold when the mold is heated this hot) & drops good bullets on the 1st cast. From there I slowly pour bullets until the mold cools to a Cadance I can cast at.

With the mp molds you have a ton of hp styles/shapes/choices. I've always tested loads for accuracy and then matched the hp to the velocity of the load I ended up with.

Haven't shot a lot of hp's in the 357's, mostly the common molds/bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/0A0Ga7O.jpg

Top row left to right:
a swaged 150gr jacketed hp made from 9mm cases. The large hp design is for slower speeds (800fps to 1000fps)
Mp 640 series hp (green) 158gr. Again the large hp is for slower speeds (+/- 800fps)
Lyman 358439 158gr hp (red) with the typical 1/8" hp pin/hole. Typically they work best in the +/- 1000fps range depending on alloy.
Cramer #26 158gr hp, cramer's version of the keith bullet that has a cone shaped hp (.125" down to a point). The hp design is better for hv loads then the lyman design.
Lyman 358156 152gr hp (far right) this is a special order mold with the larger .140" hp pin for slower loads (+/- 800fps

Bottom row:
Lyman 358477 145gr hp (red/left) with the typical .125" hp hole. Again alloy dependent +/- 1000fps.
Cramer "hunter" (center) 158gr fn hp Note the small hp hole along with the in being cone shaped. This bullet was specifically designed by cramer to hunt with at higher velocities (+/- 1200fps)
H&G #51 150gr hp has a typical .125" hp hole/pin design of the lyman molds. It also has the same alloy dependency that pin brings to the table.

A link to may 1953 American rifleman article on expanding bullets for the 44spl. A lot can be learned from this article. It shows the hp cavities shapes/designs/depths of the bullets tested via pictures bullets cut in 1/2. It also has pictures of those same bullets recovered after being shot into test media with speeds of 600fps/800fps/1000fps/1200fps. Using 40 to 1 (8bhn), 20 to 1 (10bhn) & 10 to 1 (12bhn) alloy.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf

Myself I start with a simple formula of 1bhn ='s 100fps to start testing with. Meaning a 10bhn bullet would start it's testing at +/- 1000fps.

The real limiting factor for cast hp bullets is the design/shape/size of the hp itself. I mainly run cast lead hp's in revolvers/pistols up to 1200fps depending on design or what the hp bullet will be used for. Over 1200fps that cupped hp's really shine or a +/- 12bhn alloy cast bullet will work.

On a side note:
A lot of people worry about over penetration (with good reason) with some of their cast bullets/loads. The huge hp's and soft alloy tend to minimize this. Most of my casting/shooting is done with 8/9bhn range scrap alloy (since 1990). Shot a lot of things with those cast bullets with that 8/9bhn alloy. Sorta give you a different perspective. Things like this come up, was playing around with a ppc revolver at the bowling pin table, a 800fps load using that 8/9bhn alloy. You want to hit a bowling pin in the trade-mark, they are solid there and it drives them strait back off the table. Anyway a 800fps 148gr cast hbwc 8/9bhn hit on a bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/XVsDo3b.jpg

What that 148gr 8/9bhn cast hbwc looked like after I dug it out of that bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/FtYVPsq.jpg

That nose started to flatten out nicely!!! My 170gr fn 12bhn bullets look the same way when driven up to 1400fps+ and are real thumpers.

As you can see the 1bhn ='s 100fps applies to plain/standard nosed/non hp bullets also.

[Buck Shot]

Thank you, 358429 and especially Forrest R ... this is very helpful information and I will try your suggestions. Forrest R, that's good news about the soft range scrap alloy performing so well, since I can be kinda stingy with my solder! ;-) Thanks also for that American Rifleman article -- that's just the kind of info I was looking for with my original post.

[Buck Shot]

OK, here's one thing I learned that may be of use to other newbies to HP casting:

1. These brass molds really soak up a LOT of BTUs before they get hot. I guess brass has a much higher "specific heat" than the aluminum or steel molds that I'm accustomed to. You really need to put them on a hot plate or something to get them heated up before casting.

2. DO NOT count on using the heat of the molten lead to heat up your molds if using HP pins. Although this has worked fine for me in the past using NON-hollow-point molds, with the hollow-point molds, the bullets stick on the HP pins, forcing you to jack around prying the boolits off the pins so you can remelt them and try again. This process is so tedious and time-consuming, that the mold cools off while you screw around with pliers, etc., and you will NEVER get your mold up to temperature this way. I plan to use a hot plate or propane burner, along with an IR thermometer, for my next attempt. (Just as an experiment, I tried preheating my cold brass mold over a propane flame on the kitchen stove, and it took a surprisingly long time -- over a minute with the gas flame at MAX -- to even get WARM to the touch.)

Once you get the mold up to proper temperature, you may be able to cast fast enough to keep the mold at the proper temperature using only the heat from the molten lead, but for the initial preheat, don't depend on doing it with molten lead alone, at least not in the winter like it is here...