ZOLI "Harpers Ferry" Rifle

[Bigjohn]

Well, a local dealer is trying to ambush me again. This time he has two M/L rifles in, which he is trying to sell.

One is a full stock (two piece, joined with pins and brass spacer) Kaintucky of unknown calibre. It is just my opinion but I would have to be REALLY desparate to buy a rifle with a stock like that.

The other is the subject of this thread.
A ZOLI flintlock "Harpers Ferry" .58" rifle.
Anyone shot one or shooting one at present??

John.

[home in oz]

Zoli ?

[Bigjohn]

Antonio ZOLI; Italian gunmaker out of BRESCIA Italy

John

[home in oz]

I see, thanks,

[missionary5155]

Good morning Mate...
And how are things on your side of the big blue ?
I have a Zoli 58 Zouave sold by Navy Arms. I bought it right at 20 years ago. I tried to get it to shot Mini´s and never got it to work to my satisfaction. It would hit a Bluebird school bus at 100 yards and that was the pattern. Next I moved to .575 RB... at 85 grains 2f it really shoots ! 50 yard groups are 1- 1/2 " At 100 yards it will shoot 3-3.5" with me sitting on my larger muscle group. .570 RB works just as well with th thicker patch.
My rifle has a THICK wall barrel. It looks like it should have been a .69 actually. My rifling is shallow and broad. It shoots a tight fitted ball but not well if it is to loose. I have tried loads up to 110gr and as low as 50gr 2f. NONE shoot as well as that 85 gr 2f. That load will penetrate 2 does standing about 2 feet apart shoulder to shoulder at 35 yards. Guess how I found out ? I NEVER lost a deer or any critter hit with a .57 Rb... The SOFT RB expands to 3/4 " plus and penetrates a long way.
So If I was to start all over again... I would look at a .57 mold... Thick patches are much easier to work with. I have not yet owned a Zoli flint lock. Try it at the store... If it sparks it will fire. Do check the spring tension on the hammer and frizzen. I held a Brown Bess once and the hammer spring felt real weak.
God Bless you !

[StrawHat]

This is mine

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/1803HarpersFerry001.jpg

I have used a 570 PRB over different ewights of powder and settled on 85 grains as my hunting load.

As missionary5155 stated in his post, hit them with the 58 and they don't walk away.

I started out trying loads from 55 grains up to 110 grains and while they all shot okay the 85 grain load was about the best for accuracy and economy. Not that you'll be shooting prairie dogs with it.

[oldhickory]

Zoli was one of the better Italian gun makers of reproduction black powder guns back in the day. Like Missionary said, "Try it at the store... If it sparks it will fire."

[richbug]

I have one of the "A. Zoli" 1803 Harpers ferry Flintlocks. It is very accurate. I had to harden the frizzen, to get it to spark well. I also installed a homemade touch hole liner. Now it is 100% reliable, accurate, handy to carry and kills stuff with authority.

I use the .575 Lee RB, mould with a thin Muslin patch(the rifling is really shallow in these).

I shoot 60 grains of 2F for targets, and 100-120 grains for hunting.

The downside, the wood on mine is drop dead ugly... So I don't mind giving it extra character when beating through rose bushes, thorns, brush and swamps.

[twotoescharlie]

the .45 cal. is probably a "Jukar" or a CVA

TTC

[9.3X62AL]

Another Zoli Zouave .58 owner here. The Minies give accuracy about like Foster slugs in a 12 gauge (3"-4" @ 50 yards), PRBs (.570" with .015 patch) do MUCH better, threatening 1" at 50 yards and 2.5" at 100 with open irons. 80 grains of Goex 2F, +/- 5 grains either way is a sweet spot in my rifle.

I did a recent purge of most of my black powder firearms. The Zoli and a T/C Hawken x 54 are the sole survivors.

[oldhickory]

Another Zoli Zouave .58 owner here. The Minies give accuracy about like Foster slugs in a 12 gauge (3"-4" @ 50 yards), PRBs (.570" with .015 patch) do MUCH better, threatening 1" at 50 yards and 2.5" at 100 with open irons. 80 grains of Goex 2F, +/- 5 grains either way is a sweet spot in my rifle.

I did a recent purge of most of my black powder firearms. The Zoli and a T/C Hawken x 54 are the sole survivors.

You almost always have to bed these repros with accraglass around the tang and breech to get the most out of them as far as accuracy goes.

[KCSO]

The last Zoli I rebuilt was a tad soft all over. i had to harden the sear and the tumbler and the Frizzen. I also installed a touchhole liner and centered it. After that it was a good reliable rifle. If you are not a flinter shooter the 58 Harpers is ideal for conversion to percussion as there were many done this way for the Civil war. The deciding factor here is cost as you will have to harden some parts, if not now at least in the future. If you can do this yourself that's great but if you can't add $100 on to the price of the rifle.

[chuebner]

You almost always have to bed these repros with accraglass around the tang and breech to get the most out of them as far as accuracy goes.

Did this to my Sears Roebuck Zoli Zouave plus added a repro "sniper front sight" and Taurus #62 tang sight. Also worked the trigger to a 3 lb. pull. This rifle shoots mini's OK but .570 & .575 RB's really shine with 60gr. 2F GOEX or Schuetzen. I now use this rifle for our monthly BP club shoots.

Charlie

[Bigjohn]

Strawhat, Yep! that's the one.

Well, I went back for another look/see; had him unlock it from the wall so I could check it over.

It is an A. ZOLI marked on the Lock plate 'Navy Arms'; breech plug is shiny and what I could see of the bore was also.

The frizzen has little or no finish on it which seems to indicate that the previous owner had it re-hardened. Woodwork show only minimal marking so it has rarely been out of the cupboard.

Dealer says the previous owner rarely shot the rifle but did clean up afterwards reasonably well. There is a little speckling of rust spots on the top of the barrel around the lock from powder residue.

And a trapbox lid spring you could use as a catapult

Mainspring feels a little under powered to me but the lock does spark even from the Halfcock position. I would have to get that looked at.

A rear sight notch you could park the Missouri in. :-D


Now the price $450.00 AUD as is.

I might need to have a closer looksee.

John.

[Buckshot]

FR0171 Dixie Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle $995.00

Made by Harpers Ferry Armory, Virginia, from 1803-1807, total quanity 4,023, and later production from 1814-1820 with total quantity of 15,703. The 1803 was best known as the issue firearm for the Lewis and Clark expedition. This reproduction features a European walnut half-stock with satin finish, 29 1/2" long with 3 3/4" drop and 14" trigger pull.

Browned barrel is .54 caliber, 35 1/2" long, octagon 1 1/16" to 15/16" round, button rifled .006" deep, 1-66" twist, 8 lands measure .540" and 8 grooves measure .552". Front sight is flat brass blade, rear sight is .785" dovetail, open, blued steel. Brass furniture, color casehardened lockplate marked "Harpers Ferry 1803" on tail and eagle over "US" ahead of the hammer.

Single trigger. Flintlock uses 7/8" flints, vent is 6mmx.75. Steel ramrod. Load with 80 grains of FFg black powder and .530 patched round ball. Overall length is 51 3/4" and total weight is 9 1/2 lbs.

Made by Euro Arms, Italy.

................Buckshot

[richbug]

FR0171 Dixie Model 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle $995.00

Made by Harpers Ferry Armory, Virginia, from 1803-1807, total quanity 4,023, and later production from 1814-1820 with total quantity of 15,703. The 1803 was best known as the issue firearm for the Lewis and Clark expedition. This reproduction features a European walnut half-stock with satin finish, 29 1/2" long with 3 3/4" drop and 14" trigger pull.

Browned barrel is .54 caliber, 35 1/2" long, octagon 1 1/16" to 15/16" round, button rifled .006" deep, 1-66" twist, 8 lands measure .540" and 8 grooves measure .552". Front sight is flat brass blade, rear sight is .785" dovetail, open, blued steel. Brass furniture, color casehardened lockplate marked "Harpers Ferry 1803" on tail and eagle over "US" ahead of the hammer.

Single trigger. Flintlock uses 7/8" flints, vent is 6mmx.75. Steel ramrod. Load with 80 grains of FFg black powder and .530 patched round ball. Overall length is 51 3/4" and total weight is 9 1/2 lbs.

Made by Euro Arms, Italy.

................Buckshot


I have handled one of these, different totally gun than the A. ZOLI that I have. Nice guns though.

[Geraldo]

Made by Harpers Ferry Armory, Virginia, from 1803-1807, total quanity 4,023, and later production from 1814-1820 with total quantity of 15,703. The 1803 was best known as the issue firearm for the Lewis and Clark expedition.

Off topic historical note-there's a controversy about whether or not these rifles went west with Lewis and Clark or not. A rifle was designed for the expedition, but it's unclear if any were made before they left.

Not that a deer will care when you fire a repro at it, of course. If the price is right and the barrel is good, I'd buy it.

[StrawHat]

I have handled one of these, different totally gun than the A. ZOLI that I have. Nice guns though.


Different how?

I have the Zoli and have often wished for a 54 caliber barrel. Not sure I'd drop the coin for the one at Dixie when I can get a kit for a lot less.

Was it a "just feels different" or were there measurable differences?

Thanks

[northmn]

As to the Harpers Ferry halfstock going West. Most now claim not very likely as the dates do not add up. Some think it may have been a fullstock preceder. It was likely a 54. As to getting the rifle. If it sparks well I would want it for a good hunting rifle. while I do not know the steel in the lock parts, Kasenit available from Brownells should be able to do the job. I am currently getting started on building an Englich style half stock hunting rifle, flintlock, about a 32-34 inch barrel in 58. Kind of sounds similar to your Zoli doesn't it. 58's have a reputaion of doing the job in a no nonsense way. The 2 piece stock 45 is one I would recommend foregoing as you did.

Northmn

[richbug]

Different how?

I have the Zoli and have often wished for a 54 caliber barrel. Not sure I'd drop the coin for the one at Dixie when I can get a kit for a lot less.

Was it a "just feels different" or were there measurable differences?

Thanks


Fit and finish, quality of wood. The Dixie was nicer that the Zoli/Navy Arms rifle.

[StrawHat]

Thanks richbug,

When I first got mine I noticed it was a bit lacking in the fitting dept. But what caught my eye was the price. It was reduced significantly as the owner had succeeded in breaking the stock through at the wrist. I believe he was reenacting the scene where John Wayne (or substitute another favorite actor) breaks down the doors of the cabin with the butt of his rifle...

Anyway, I got it cheap and whittled a stock for it using the original as a pattern. I also was able to use a second model 1803 as a pattern. An Uncle of mine had an 1803 that was converted to percussion and smootbored to a larger caliber. I always wanted to get that rifle and have it restored to a shooter but never did.

Mine is a shooter. I have not had to harden any lock parts that I remember but I did install a touch hole liner and better sights. I amy replace the rear barrel sight with a "target sight" mounted further aft, over the breech plug. Another "some day" project!

[northmn]

Strawhat you did a good job on refinishing the gun. Those were the earlier model of Harpers Ferry copies and as shooters got more concerned about originlity wanted 54's. There are drop in locks for these models, but generally a lock can be made to work. One can get kits to build one, but they are not cheap. I find the 85 grain load interesting. Whether it will shoot well out of my Green Mountain 58 we will see. The Harpers Ferry is still one of the better hunting guns made as it is simple, should be reliable with a military lock and a good caliber. Just out of curiosity, do you prime with 4-f, 3f or go with the 2f. A Bess I had worked great with 2f priming.

Northmn

[StrawHat]

northmn, thank you for the kind words. I restocked that rifle in the 70s.

I am not all that scientific in my reloading and try to keep things simple. I prime with the same powder that is in my main charge. Usually 3F, sometimes 2F. I don't notice any difference in the ignition.

I installed the touchhole liner so it is centered in the trough and at the same height as the bottom of the frizzen. I prime the pan with enough to get me about 2/3 of the way from the bottom of the pan to the touchhole. No powder train, just flash. A clear touchhole and ignition is instantaneous. I used to carry two horns when using a flintlock but have tried to simplify things when shooting.

As to the 85 grain load, it just worked out that way for this rifle, I had a percussion 58 that doted on 110 grains with the PRB. Funny thing, the deer were no deader than when hit by the flintlock with 85 grains. I seem to recall that someone told me 85 was also the "regular charge" for the military of the day when the 1803 was issued. (Not sure about that one.)

[northmn]

As to the regular military charge, I doubt if it was as high as 85 grains. The standard for the 58 muskets was 60-70 grains with a minnie. I think that one of the problems the Clark expedition may have had with Grizzlys is the use of light military charges. While a 54 is not really a Grizzly gun if loaded correctly it should not be quite as bad as reported. I played with 3f priming last deer season and found it OK. If I primed and did not take care to wipe the edge of the pan so that there was a gap in the frizzen pan fit the 4f would dribble out. Didn't notice all that much difference in ignition speed. Military used the same powder as in the main charge.

Northmn

[msuspartan]

Strawhat,
I am wondering where I may get parts for the lock. I purchased the exact same rifle along with another in an auction and need to repair the lock. Also any other info for firing, maintenance and ideas for the rifle would well be appreciated. You can email me also if need be. Thank you.

[nicholst55]

Strawhat,
I am wondering where I may get parts for the lock. I purchased the exact same rifle along with another in an auction and need to repair the lock. Also any other info for firing, maintenance and ideas for the rifle would well be appreciated. You can email me also if need be. Thank you.

I'm not strawhat, but I would try either Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf for lock parts.

[omgb]

I have a Zoli Zuave and as others have said, with standard or over-size minnes you can't hit the dirt with it. However, I tried that target minne from Lee and bingo, it shoots good enough to hit paint buckets at 100 yards. I also added a rear sight set from a Kraig. That improved things big time. I would not buy another Zoli though. They are way better than Armi Sport....those guns are all POSs as far as I've seen. Zoli isn't a Pedersoli but it isn't exactly what I'd call a great gun. I'd put it on par with those Ruski Remingtons or maybe slightly less quality.

[jhrosier]

I had a Zoli Harpers Ferry rifle, back in the day.
It worked quite well but did have a soft frizzen. Well, not soft, but not deeply enough case hardened. The fellow that bought it from me had to have the frizzen hardened after about 500 shots.
I shot it quite a bit for a year and was satisfied with the function and accuracy.
Now I wish that I hadn't sold it.
Like others have mentioned, I did wish that it was made in the original .54 caliber.

Jack

[StrawHat]

Strawhat,
I am wondering where I may get parts for the lock. I purchased the exact same rifle along with another in an auction and need to repair the lock. Also any other info for firing, maintenance and ideas for the rifle would well be appreciated. You can email me also if need be. Thank you.

If I were you I would contact the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi Ohio. Nothing against the other places, I just like the Kindigs and have dealt with them for over 40 years.

http://www.logcabinonline.com/

In the custom rifle and pistol components, under flintlocks , they list an 1803 Harpers Ferry Lock. This lock uses the internal parts from a Siler lock. I know the Navy Arms does not use those parts but maybe they could be made to fit.

Another place to try would be VTI, under Pedersoli locks they list a lock for the 1816 HF Rifle. Not sure if you can get individual parts.

As for loading, Follow the advice given here and you should be okay.

Good luck and enjoy your rifle.

[richbug]

If I were you I would contact the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi Ohio. Nothing against the other places, I just like the Kindigs and have dealt with them for over 40 years.

http://www.logcabinonline.com/

In the custom rifle and pistol components, under flintlocks , they list an 1803 Harpers Ferry Lock. This lock uses the internal parts from a Siler lock. I know the Navy Arms does not use those parts but maybe they could be made to fit.

Another place to try would be VTI, under Pedersoli locks they list a lock for the 1816 HF Rifle. Not sure if you can get individual parts.

As for loading, Follow the advice given here and you should be okay.

Good luck and enjoy your rifle.

I have a Large Siler and one of the NA 1803's. Nothing similar at all inside them.

[northmn]

I believe L&R sells a replacement lock. Davis also makes one. I would personally replace the whole original lock with one of these other than go through too much parts modification. Check Tarack of the Wolf, Log Cabin, Muzzle Loaders builders Supply.

Northmn

[StrawHat]

northmn

...I believe L&R sells a replacement lock. Davis also makes one. I would personally replace the whole original lock with one of these other than go through too much parts modification...

Shucks nothhmn, that's the easy way to do it. But I have to agree with you. Unless I could find another NA lock, I would get a complete new lock from one of the sutlers. I've had to fiddlefit parts to original firearms and while educational, it is still a lot of work.

[StrawHat]

Bigjohn ...Well, I went back for another look/see; had him unlock it from the wall so I could check it over...And a trapbox lid spring you could use as a catapult

Mainspring feels a little under powered to me but the lock does spark even from the Halfcock position. I would have to get that looked at.

A rear sight notch you could park the Missouri in.


Now the price $450.00 AUD as is.

I might need to have a closer looksee.

John.

Bigjohn, did you ever get the rifle?