IMR Green

[Alstep]

Saw a couple of jugs of this at the LGS a few days ago. Not familiar with it. Little I can find out is it is supposed to be similar to Green Dot. My loading manuals don't mention it. Anybody have a clue???

[centershot]

From what I've seen, it is virtually identical to Green Dot in burning rate. The Alliant and Hodgdon/IMR loading data for shotshells both show identical charges, depending on other components chosen, 15 to 16.5 grains.

[BunkTheory]

So if that is the case, and a person is loading for a 357 magnum, can the person simply swap out the data and have an accurate gun, or should one burn up valuable primers just to use up substandard Bullseye

[ABJ]

I have used green dot and Imr green. Yes they are close but do not give the same accuracy at the same charge. I would feel safe using the green dot data starting loads and work up but would not use a mid or max load without starting low.
Same with the Imr red and red dot. I did get accurate loads from all powders but the the charges between the dots and the IMR were slightly different.
Tony

[dverna]

Centershot is correct. It mimics Green Dot. Load data for Green Dot will be safe. Note that is has been discontinued. If they had 2-3 jugs at a good price, I would snap it up. Worst case you can trade it to someone who reloads shotshells if you do not load them yourself.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

did you check the Hodgdon website for IMR Green load Data ?

[BunkTheory]

imr version of red and green seem to be using .1 to .5 grains less to get the same chamber pressure so not bad.

But why would they discontinue them... i need to order and i got a crap load of expenses soon

[centershot]

imr version of red and green seem to be using .1 to .5 grains less to get the same chamber pressure so not bad.

But why would they discontinue them... i need to order and i got a crap load of expenses soon

Well, I've not heard the reason from any reliable source. But, it almost seems destined for failure to introduce powders going head to head with the Dot powders. They're really well established, especially amongst shotshell loaders and the fact that you can also use them in pistol and rile loads is an endearing trait. Both IMR Red & Green can also be used that way, yes, but many of us are already buying Dot powders by the case of 8# jugs, so competition is stiff. I know I wouldn't switch unless there was a significant savings or if I had no choice.

[dverna]

Well, I've not heard the reason from any reliable source. But, it almost seems destined for failure to introduce powders going head to head with the Dot powders. They're really well established, especially amongst shotshell loaders and the fact that you can also use them in pistol and rile loads is an endearing trait. Both IMR Red & Green can also be used that way, yes, but many of us are already buying Dot powders by the case of 8# jugs, so competition is stiff. I know I wouldn't switch unless there was a significant savings or if I had no choice.

On the mark. It is really that simple.

[megasupermagnum]

While every thinking person already knew that, Hodgdon launched their whole line anyway. I'm not convinced they ever made a single pound of Unequal. Surprise, surprise, the entire line has now been discontinued. In fact it seems Hodgdon is discontinuing half of their handgun and shotgun powders, and has already gotten rid of all their good stuff. IMR red, green, blue, unequal, gone. They already got rid of all the SR powders like 4756 and 4759. This year they got rid of an entire brand, Goex. Made since 1802, and poof, gone. They even got rid of one of my all time favorites 800x. Don't you fret rifle shooters, they have also axed some all time favorites like h414 and Retumbo. In the past 7 years, I'm pretty sure Hodgdon has discontinued more powders than what they still have in the lineup.

Honestly I have no idea what is going on with Hodgdon. I'm not going to do anything about it for a few years when powder returns, but then I intend on moving most of my business to Alliant. Unless you really need it, I'd leave that IMR green on the shelf. It's probably not bad, but it's not better than green dot. There's next to no data for it besides basic shotgun loads, and you will never see it again since it is discontinued.

[dverna]

MSM,
They are cutting out products that are either not selling and/or have poor margins. Just business. Longer runs of products that sell are more efficient.

Currently, and in the near future, they can sell anything they produce.

[megasupermagnum]

They have cut way too much for it to be that simple. They still for some reason kept all three Hodgdon clays, international clays, and universal clays. They were named stupidly when they came out, and now they are all competing for the same thing. I've never even heard of anyone who likes any of those. I don't dislike the company, but they have cut all but one powder I've been shooting forever, and can't replace, and that is H110. They cut SR4759, fine it probably didn't sell great. Then H414, and I'm sure that sold well. Not the end of the world, 4350 is close enough. Then 800x, again I'm sure sold well. The only thing I can think of is that they assume most 800x shooters are pistol shooters who will move to CFE pistol. CFE pistol is not that great of a substitute for a lot of 800x uses, but close enough I guess. They don't make a good shotgun replacement. Longshot I guess, but again, not at all the same as what 800x does. Then on my birthday no less, they cut all of Goex brand, and that's a whole bunch of different powders.

By comparison I've been shooting Alliant, like Bluedot, Unique, RE 15, and more as long as I've been reloading, and Alliant has not cut a single powder. As far as I know, the only powder they have discontinued in 20 years was RE 12, and really 12 and 15 were so close it was kind of foolish to keep them both.

My opinion is that they bit off more than they could chew when they bought western powders. Almost all of the powders they have cut have been known as more expensive to produce powders. That's their choice, but I think it is going to bite them bad in the end. I'm not going to invest time into powder I believe could be doomed in a short time.

[centershot]

I use H414 in my '06, but WW 760 is the identical powder so no worries there. I tend to agree with dverna, their decisions to stop some of these powders is crazy. GOEX - just gone! America's oldest, and only, black powder company, GONE! As a muzzle loader I'm peeved and concerned now that I have to rely on imported powder and an uncertain supply chain. And NO, I'm not gonna' make my own, I like my fingers just like they are!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

Almost all of the powders they have cut have been known as more expensive to produce powders. .
That is what I heard on the internet rumor machine.

[megasupermagnum]

That is what I heard on the internet rumor machine.

Yep, so it must be true.

@centershot, have you found ww760 in the last 6 years? It was my understanding it was discontinued with H414, but it appears on the Hodgdon website still. I've not seen any for sale, but I haven't went out of my way either. There's a million rifle powders, and at least a dozen great choices for every cartridge, so I don't fret when they discontinue something like that.

It's when something like 800x, or SR4759, or all blackpowder at once is discontinued that it stings really bad. I don't know what to do about 800x other than enjoy my 8lb'er while it lasts. At least I can make my own blackpowder if nobody buys Goex.

[dverna]

MSM,
IIRC, 800X was an old DuPont Hi-Scor powder that was mainly used for heavier 12 ga loads. Like other shotgun powders, it found use in pistol reloading.

But this was decades ago.

I got heavily into trap about 20 years ago, and by then, no one I knew was using 800X. A shotgun powder that loses it’s base market cannot expect to last....so no surprise it was dropped. The other issue with 800X, is reports of poor metering. Not a big issue for shotgun loads where a +/- .3 gr variation is moot, but likely a characteristic that made it less desirable for large volume pistol shooters who moved to progressive reloaders as those machines became affordable. For “proof” look at how few people on this site use 800X. It was never a recommended powder for CAS, or IPSC to the best of my knowledge.

There are plenty of other powders that do as good, and in most cases a better job.

Cast bullet shooters are such a small subset that our desires are not going to impact what powder companies do.

As to IMR discontinued powders, that may be good news. I have never used them, but if I found a sale on a powder that can be used in calibers/gauges I shoot, I would buy 40 lbs at $20/lb. At $35/lb., they can choke on it. But I am not desperate, and other reloaders may need something that works for now even if it is not a long term proposition.

[centershot]

MSM,
No, I haven't seen WW760 on the shelf but I really haven't had the need to search for it, I still ave about 5# of H414 on the shelf. It seems like every time I find a WW powder that works for me they discontinue it. I wish I'd bought 50# of WW785 while it was available!

As far as IMR, I've used a lot of their product over the years. I was disappointed to see that they ceased production of 4320 a while back. Both 4320 and 414 worked really well in my '06 - maybe fate is telling me I'm not supposed to have an '06! :sad:

[Gewehr-Guy]

This is just a wild guess, but I believe all cut / flake / extruded powders are living on borrowed time. They have to be more expensive to manufacture, compared to ball powders, so I won't be a bit surprised to see many more go away. Sadly, business doesn't care about our wants, as much as they care about profits.

[dverna]

This is just a wild guess, but I believe all cut / flake / extruded powders are living on borrowed time. They have to be more expensive to manufacture, compared to ball powders, so I won't be a bit surprised to see many more go away. Sadly, business doesn't care about our wants, as much as they care about profits.

That is not entirely true. Say an extruded powder had to be priced at $35/lb to get the same profit margin as a ball powder that sold for $30/lb. The manufacturer will not care which one you buy...they make the same profit. But the market may decide the cheaper powder is "good enough" and not purchase the more expensive product.

Here is something to consider, W231 is the same powder as HP-38. I know folks who insist on buying W231 even though it costs a bit more. I bet when this powder is produced, they pack some of it in jugs marked W231 and some in jugs labelled HP-38. Hodgdon could "discontinue" HP-38 and just offer the higher priced W231 but so far offer both. Ever wonder why they do that? What a bunch of morons...walking away from easy money...LOL.

[centershot]

This is just a wild guess, but I believe all cut / flake / extruded powders are living on borrowed time. They have to be more expensive to manufacture, compared to ball powders, so I won't be a bit surprised to see many more go away. Sadly, business doesn't care about our wants, as much as they care about profits.

There are a number of powders, particularly the IMR extruded powders, that are on borrowed time. These powders are extremely hazardous to manufacture compared to ball powders, which are kept in a wet state until the final stages of production. The manufacturers have to jump through hoops to please the safety Nazi's so the powder is either more expensive to make or is driven offshore for production in other countries, or both. IIRC, there is still one powder manufacturing facility in the CONUS, General Dynamics maybe? But, if you're still using IMR stick powders, the clock is ticking. Why do you think they developed the Enduron lineup?

[megasupermagnum]

This is just a wild guess, but I believe all cut / flake / extruded powders are living on borrowed time. They have to be more expensive to manufacture, compared to ball powders, so I won't be a bit surprised to see many more go away. Sadly, business doesn't care about our wants, as much as they care about profits.

Flake and ball powders are the only powders made in the USA anymore, and made in a very similar manner. They are cheap to make, and very safe to manufacture. Extruded powders are made completely different, yet that is the vast majority of rifle powder made because it is generally superior.

@dverna, you are right, 800x probably was not used much in any kind of target games. It's a magnum powder. It's niche was never targets, that's what 700x is. 800x was IMR's field powder, and they chose to use a large flake powder to get a giant operating window. Think about that. 800x did for IMR what Green dot, Unique and Bluedot did for Alliant, all from one powder. I understand that it never sold as much volume as 700x. Nothing will ever compete in volume what target powders do. My complaint is that Hodgdon doesn't have a replacement. For pistol purposes, CFE pistol does an adequate job on the low end. For somethings in that window, say 45 acp, even I'll admit it is a great powder. Outside of that, not so much. Longshot does ok on the high end, although 800x generally shoots better. For shotguns, Longshot is acceptable for lighter field loads. Longshot is a niche powder, and it really is best used for high velocity, low payload shotgun loads, which is what it was originally made for. So now you need 2 powders, and both together still don't do as good as 800x, with the sole exception that now they meter better. Neither CFE pistol or Longshot are good choices for low pressure loads, where 800x will burn at practically nothing for pressure.

Also, there are plenty on this forum who shoot 800x. As stated, you won't find them in the pistol games shooters. It's going to be shotgun shooters, and certain handgun shooters like 10mm guys (probably the #1 users of 800x outside of shotgun), maximizing older cartridges like 38 special or 45 colt, or guys looking for accuracy in general. I'll raise you one. Who in the heck is using any of the 3 different "clays" powders that all do the same thing? I've never met anyone, and I've never even heard of a recommendation. Once in a great while someone comes along who likes international clays, but even they usually admit it's not as good as Unique, just meters great.

@centershot, You are aware that the "enduron" powders are still stick powders? As for discontinuing Winchester powders, yep. It's only a matter of time before they chop WW296, then every Hodgdon powder I ever used will be gone. Now it's a race to see who's the sole survivor from when I started reloading. H110, or IMR 3031?

Alliant doesn't do this kind of thing. I don't mean to be some kind of Alliant fanboy, but they don't discontinue powders. Hodgdon has discontinued most of what has made Hodgdon, Hodgdon. This is a phenomenon unique to only the last few years. Call it what you will. It's stupid business practice. We reloaders are a fickle bunch at the best of times. Start discontinuing 90% of your powders that have existed since practically WWII, and you'll go out of business right quick.

[dverna]

MSM,
I will defer to you on the value of 800X. In over 50 years of reloading, I never used it. When an old trap shooter was selling off his supplies, he had a large amount of it, but I decided not to acquire it even though the price was attractive.

BTW, I am a huge fan boy of Alliant pistol/shotgun powders. Promo and Unique are two of my “core” stocking powders.

I agree with you about wondering what Hodgdon is doing at times. Bringing out a series of propellants to compete with RD, GD, and Unique was questionable. Unless there was a cost or performance advantage, why would anyone switch? But they lucked out. When the market will buy anything, they will not need to discount the stuff to move it.

[megasupermagnum]

Ha, I almost forgot this thread was originally about IMR green. Questionable is an understatement. How can you improve upon Green dot? As a flake powder, it meters as good as anything out there. The only real way to meter better is to go to a ball powder. I believe Alliant came up with their "improved" Green dot before IMR green came out, meaning better manufacturing processes, so you aren't going to beat them in quality. Green dot is not known for any shortcomings as far as temperature stability, or consistency. There's MANY decades of load data out there, that you can't compete with at all. IMR green might be the second most idiotic decision, right after Unequal to dethrone the 100+ year old Unique (not to mention the 3 "clays" powders they make, that nobody uses, but does the same thing). IMR red, I'm not sure what the thinking was there. Obviously a play against red dot, but IMR 700x is the same thing. Maybe they just put red dots in IMR 700x, and tried to sell it to us?:-P IMR blue was the only one that I can at least wrap my head around, but they went about it the completely wrong way. That gap that bluedot, 800x, and a couple others are in is a huge void. 800x obviously has one deficiency, and that is poor metering. Find a way to do what 800x does, but with smaller flakes, and boom, you have a best seller. Or, they could have aimed for the bluedot/2400 slot. Come up with a slow magnum shotgun powder like those, but that can run better at lower pressures, and are less effected by temperatures, and you will likely have a seller. Instead they tried to clone bluedot, but made it worse.

[centershot]

Yup, Alliant fan boy here! And why not? Looking at my powder shelf it's heavy on Alliant products, mostly pistol/shotgun powders. Mostly, I'm a hunter - I'm a shooter because I want to maintain proficiency. So, the shotgun is the center of my world, pretty much, and Alliant's powders are second to none. I know you guys have similar thoughts. Rifle powders? I'm tellin' you, as soon as I can find it I'm buying a case of RL-15! That'll feed every caliber rifle I own!

MSM, yes I know that the Enduron powders are "stick" powders, kinda'. They have an unusual shape, like a "melted" stick. It makes me think of a cross between stick and ball powders.

[trapper9260]

I remember when they to come out with the IMR Dot powders , and watch video on it . It was because at the time Alliant was hard to get for how it was at the time and they wanted to fill in that gap. I use alot of Alliant powders also, beside others of IMR . For the IMR powders and H powders is not going to be produce anymore of the ones that is being not being made , for how I see it they want to push the newer powders. To me it is not a good idea on it.