My 12 gauge Full Bore Round Ball journey just started.

[Petander]

Round balls are addictive.

I'm mostly a 20 gauge person but there's something irresistible about a 555 grain 12 gauge RB... Anyway, my relative success with 20 gauge RB:s made me try Mihec .532 RB:s in 12. Full bore!

Quite mild but clean burning VV3N38 load with some flash. I had tinted glasses and it was getting dark. Nine shots standing 25 meters,open sights. 18" Benelli M3 cylinder.

https://i.postimg.cc/TwcJvqbC/IMG-20211210-WA0004.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/fLbJkxFH/IMG-20211210-WA0005.jpg


Bench shooting can wait for a while. It's also too dark for my Pro Chrono to work.

https://i.postimg.cc/tR34yvYX/IMG-20211210-WA0006.jpg

I made these long OAL to minimize ball jump but these were too long to feed from Benelli tube. Should always check!

https://i.postimg.cc/7L3Wbz7T/IMG-20211206-WA0001.jpg



Luckily there was a Siarm package on my doorstep when I got home:

https://i.postimg.cc/wjJWbNwb/IMG-20211210-WA0007.jpg

Now I can proceed,I'll replace the tall plastic wad with a lower cork... and check feeding. Charge won't change yet. Looks like Remingtons can feed longer OAL than Benelli. Of course the proper way would be standard OAL that works everywhere. But minimizing the jump works for me in 20 so I'm making gun specific ammo for now.

[longbow]

Big 'ol round balls are fun! I'm not sure why but they are! I guess for me being a minimalist it just doesn't get much more simple or basic than a round ball.

They are easy to cast and easy to load whether in shotcup or full bore.

In my experience you will want a solid support under the ball... as in hard card wad column or at least a couple of 1/8" (3mm) nitro card wads on top of a cushion leg.

A scoop of something like buffer or COW under the ball is good too, just enough to fill in the empty space and slightly lift the ball.

At 10,000 PSI wads tend to want to wrap around the ball if not well supported.

Damaged wad columns = poor accuracy.

Big holes are fun!

Enjoy!

Longbow

[GregLaROCHE]

They sure will put holes in things. Even with black powder.

[Petander]

In my experience you will want a solid support under the ball... as in hard card wad column or at least a couple of 1/8" (3mm) nitro card wads on top of a cushion leg.

A scoop of something like buffer or COW under the ball is good too, just enough to fill in the empty space and slightly lift the ball.

At 10,000 PSI wads tend to want to wrap around the ball if not well supported.

Damaged wad columns = poor accuracy

Longbow

When you look at my components you'll see the felt wad under the ball . I was thinking centering. But what do I know? There's a nitro card between the wads (gas seals actually).

I'll examine wads next time, it got dark.

Five out of nine made one hole, I will keep the felt for now.

[longbow]

Randy has done well with felt too. When seated the ram likely leaves a nice ball centering "dent" and felt makes a good cushion too.

That's good shooting!

Longbow

[Petander]

I felt like leaving the felt. :)

Cork instead and a lower second wad for a shorter OAL. Feeds now.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZRxFyL0N/IMG-20211210-WA0010.jpg

Test tomorrow. No chrono weather in sight...

[W.R.Buchanan]

Using a Felt Wad directly under the ball is a good way to center it in the hull. I use them under my balls in my Trap Load Converts.

On a similar note:

We made a Device for Launching Ball Bearings for impacting a Rocket Nose Cone or something for a NASA Test Lab a while back.(20 years ago!)

The key feature was a Center Drill Hole in the center of the "Traveler" so that the ball launched the same way everytime.

Along the same lines,,, I have a gun designed that is a cross between a Spear Gun and a Sling Shot. Obviously that is a Spear Gun that Shoots .50/.54 caliber Lead Balls. The "Car" or "Traveler," runs on rails made from two pieces of Square Stock and is powered by two or more large pieces of surgical tubing.

The key feature of this device is the ball being located in the tapered hole in the front of the Car. This guarantees that the ball is launched the exact same way everytime. I have seen Bow Strings for Compound Bows that were designed to shoot ball bearings that work the same way.

Hence the felt wad accomplishing the same function. OR??? Maybe a Large Center Drilled Hole in the front of one of your hard wads that would pre-align the ball to the bore and give it an even push out the barrel..

As long as the ball is a Sphere without a Sprue sticking out to catch the wind and deviate from its original path the ball will go which ever way it is launched.

My very first shot with one of my round ball loaded Trap Loads was a direct dead center hit on a Silhouette Chicken at 50 meters. I was thinking along these lines when concocting this load.

Old style AA hull 18 gr of Green Dot, WAA 12 wad with 1/4" Felt Wad, and .662/425 gr. round ball, fold crimp.

Randy

[725]

Petander ~ Looking good. I've given up on buying slugs and now only roll my own round balls. I had Tanner make me .702 round ball mold and after some tinkering, found an incredibly accurate load. It's all I use now. As noted above when the wad starts to get crushed, accuracy will go out the window. Great good luck in your quest.

[Petander]

Still no chrono weather but promising results.

Two 25 meter groups,kneeled position,yellow glasses. Benelli M3 w/ stock rifle sights.

Here the gun was in pump mode,I fed each round separately by hand:

https://i.postimg.cc/YqWG4R18/IMG-20211211-WA0001.jpg


This group I shot in semiauto mode from the full mag tube:

https://i.postimg.cc/HLpVhCFP/IMG-20211211-WA0002.jpg


What can I say? I like full bore Round Balls! Better shooting/sight/support might stay in 1". Four shots in that pump group are 1" excactly. Notice the POI change between pump & semi groups.

Next I will change nada except up the charge. Not enough pain yet!

[longbow]

Looking good!

Now you are making me wonder why I am back to playing with wad slugs!

Maybe I'll load up some 0.735" RB's for the next range trip with the Brenneke'ized Lee slugs.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

That is certainly "Usable Accuracy" for lots of things. Love the Blue ones.

Randy

[Petander]

Blue balls are "Carolina Blue" from Smoke. One of the easiest to use & best covering powders for PC.

I fired only them in this thread tests.

[FullTang]

I also like felt under .735 RBs. Mine are coated with Lee Liquid Alox, and that has a tackiness that sticks just a little to the felt. It seems to help keep the sprue nicely centered when loading into the hull.

[Petander]

I also like felt under .735 RBs. Mine are coated with Lee Liquid Alox, and that has a tackiness that sticks just a little to the felt. It seems to help keep the sprue nicely centered when loading into the hull.

I completely forgot about sprue position here.

Do you load sprue up or down?

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
Back when I was loading far more RB I went with our old Muzzle Loading practice of Sprue Up.

[dverna]

Petander,

First...nice results!!

Second....many years ago I worked for a Finnish firm and one of the men hunted and used a rifle. I was wondering why you are working on a shotgun loads. Are there areas where rifles are not permitted? We have those silly rules in some places here in the US so I am curious.

[longbow]

Like innie and outie belly buttons, there are sprue up and sprue down folks. I am a sprue up guy because I can see it.

I doubt it makes much if any difference though as the ball is going to pick up random spin from uneven drag... at least I think so.

The best description of a smoothbore round ball path I have read is "trombone" trajectory... pretty consistent with smallish groups to 50 or 60 yards but growing exponentially much beyond.

I believe that is the curve ball effect of random spin.

Whether sprue up or down is better would take a lot of shooting of balls loaded each way to determine I think. I haven't done that comparative shooting.

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

[centershot]

If you're shooting a smoothbore it probably won't matter, sprue up or down. If a rifled bore, then definitely sprue up so you know it's centered! That, or tumble them to remove the sprue, that's what I do.

[Petander]

Petander,

First...nice results!!

Second....many years ago I worked for a Finnish firm and one of the men hunted and used a rifle. I was wondering why you are working on a shotgun loads. Are there areas where rifles are not permitted? We have those silly rules in some places here in the US so I am curious.

Not a rules thing here. I just like casting and shooting big things. And learning.

Rifles are legal for all hunting here, shotgun slugs only up to whitetail and wild boar, nothing bigger. Handguns banned for all hunting except 22LR for trapping.

We have four power classfifications for rifles,eg 243 is minimum for whitetail. Surprisingly, a 308 is OK for moose. Not in my opinion or practise!

One more slug thing: I enjoy building accurate loads,for both 20 and 12. I guess I just like slugs, especially Round Balls!

I started casting slugs in the 90's for IPSC and I like thinking the economy aspect,too. Plus there's no place I can buy this accurate ,powerful slugs that leave a clean barrel.


If you're shooting a smoothbore it probably won't matter, sprue up or down. If a rifled bore, then definitely sprue up so you know it's centered! That, or tumble them to remove the sprue, that's what I do.

I should get a rifled 12 next week. I have never seen a rifled shotgun barrel, until my frind bought the only 20 gauge 870 here in Finland last month. That made me want a rifled one,too.

This is rare stuff here, as is casting. I'm just weird for a Finn.




The best description of a smoothbore round ball path I have read is "trombone" trajectory... pretty consistent with smallish groups to 50 or 60 yards but growing exponentially much beyond.

I believe that is the curve ball effect of random spin.



Agreed. I've seen that.

[longbow]

I am much the same. We have few shotgun only areas for hunting and regardless, I am not much of a hunter these days but I like shotguns and slugs/balls.

Big holes are fun, round balls are fun so it stands to reason that big round balls making big holes is big fun! That's my story and I am sticking to it!

This is a great thread by the way! Big round balls making big holes close together, and he does it with colourful balls... what's not to like?

Longbow

[Petander]

I am much the same. We have few shotgun only areas for hunting and regardless, I am not much of a hunter these days but I like shotguns and slugs/balls.

Big holes are fun, round balls are fun so it stands to reason that big round balls making big holes is big fun! That's my story and I am sticking to it!

This is a great thread by the way! Big round balls making big holes close together, and he does it with colourful balls...

https://i.postimg.cc/85PmYz0s/IMG-20211212-WA0001.jpg



... what's not to like?

A cat?

https://i.postimg.cc/0QW011Tn/IMG-20211210-WA0013.jpg

[FullTang]

I completely forgot about sprue position here.

Do you load sprue up or down?

The received wisdom among blackpowder muzzleloader shooters is that you always load the sprue centered forward, because you just can't tell where it is otherwise. Apparently, a great deal of study has gone into this, and I accept this as fact. In practice (I cast and shoot a fair amount of BP/ML) I have not found a better way. So, that's the way I load my full bore RBs.

[Petander]

The received wisdom among blackpowder muzzleloader shooters is that you always load the sprue centered forward, because you just can't tell where it is otherwise. Apparently, a great deal of study has gone into this, and I accept this as fact. In practice (I cast and shoot a fair amount of BP/ML) I have not found a better way. So, that's the way I load my full bore RBs.

Excellent, thank you. Confirms what I've read.

Tumbling is not an option, I started experimenting with buckshot a couple of years back, tumbled and Hi Tek coated it . Broke two standard brass tumblers within a year. 220 V tumblers are hard to find here now.

And my buckshot tumbling didn't really make a difference on paper.

[ASSASSIN]

If I missed it I apologize, but have you cut the gas seal from a AA-20 ga. wad and added it to the inside of a 12 ga. wad? This self centers a round ball, and provides a very solid base for the round ball to launch from.

I can load round ball loads up to 1,600+ fps., and from all of the recovered 20 ga. gas seals, I have yet to fine one with any damage to it.


293121

[longbow]

Now there's a good idea!

I've seen posts about using inverted gas seals under RB's but I believe full bore (12 ga. in my case) but none I have or have seen will cradle the ball properly. Didn't think of 20 ga. gas seals!

Thanks for that gem!

Longbow

[ASSASSIN]

You're welcome Longbow, glad I could be of assistance! [smilie=s:

[Petander]

If I missed it I apologize, but have you cut the gas seal from a AA-20 ga. wad and added it to the inside of a 12 ga. wad?


293121

A good idea,thank you.

I will try that with a .678 ball that sits in a cup. Balls in this thread are full bore .732", so no real cup, no petals. It might work here as well,of course. You can see my components on the previous page. My "cup" is a tall gas seal.

I'm loading as long OAL as possible to minimize "jump", I wonder how far the "centering aids" actually help?



Finally had a chrono weather, my velocity is only 1100 fps now, very little spread. I'll up the charge next. 1400 fps with 555 grains might be achievable...? Changes in accuracy will tell.



https://i.postimg.cc/HxZBCVNr/IMG-20211215-000917-963.jpg

[longbow]

I'd say a ball cradling cup may help the ball enter the bore both centered and without rolling. It wouldn't hurt anyway. A felt wad under the ball may provide similar support as it will cup when seated.

I have recovered 0.735" RB's with quite uneven bands/belts around the equator indicating they entered the bore off center or rolling up the forcing cone... which I guess they would have to be off center to do. I have one that has virtually no indication of touching the bore on one side and a full wide band on the other. I wouldn't have thought that would happen but so it did. Accuracy was generally very good even with these odd shaped bands though.

I am using 2 3/4" hulls in 3" chamber though so providing more of an opportunity for the ball to be off center due to the jump.

If 0.735" RB's can be that much off I have to think the 0.732" RB's would do the same or even more as they are less of a swage fit to bore. These were wheelweight or range scrap RB's too, not soft lead.

I like that mottled coating! Not as colourful as your usual coatings but very appealing! Is that a mix of coloured powder and clear powder? Or mix of colours?

Longbow

[Petander]

But how can a tight fitting RB "roll" or "de-center" itself in the first place? Does the hull wall give or what?

Crimp will open up the hull to full chamber length, up to the forcing cone,hull walls holding the ball centered,no? If there's a 20 gauge supporting wad under the ball, nothing is holding that undersize "centering aid" centered. Unless it is in a shotcup.

Or am I thinking crooked?

https://i.postimg.cc/nVPGdrMC/IMG-20211215-WA0001.jpg

[longbow]

I am no shotgun or forcing cone expert so what follows is just my opinion.

Having recovered RB's with uneven "belts" around the equator I can say that occurs for sure. My take is that the ball must be off center or rotating for that to happen.

How? The payload is housed in a flexible plastic hull that expands to fill the chamber under pressure making at best a loose fitting guide for the ball. The ball then has to open the crimp which may or may not open evenly which may put uneven drag on the ball which leaves the hull mouth into a chamber of about 0.80", so larger than the largest ball you can get in a hull and into the chamber. The ball is now unsupported/unguided through the forcing cone which is 1/2" to 1 1/2" long typically. Add 1/4" to that if using 2 3/4" hulls in a 3" chamber.

If there is uneven drag opening the crimp the ball may tend to roll as it leaves the hull. If the wad column "gives" or tilts a bit the ball may be pushed off center so contacts the forcing cone at one point then bouncing or rolling into the bore.

I think most likely is the wad column tilting under the ball so directing it off center through the unsupported jump.

Compare the shotgun chamber and forcing cone to a rifle chamber and throat. Not only is the neck of the cartridge a very close fit to the chamber but the bullet will be in or very near a throat (within a few thou) that is maybe a thou larger than the bullet. No 1/2" to 1 1/2" unsupported jump here! Nor travel from a hull into a chamber with 0.065" clearance to the bullet.

I'll post a pic or two of recovered 0.735" RB's later to show the uneven "belts" around the equator. I should have two or three examples.

How it happens I can't say for sure but it does happen... at least for me.

Longbow

[GBertolet]

I am sure that the ball wobbles before being gripped by the rifling. The question is how much, and is it the same amount each time?

[longbow]

I think a full bore plastic sabot about 3/4" long with a nice ball fitting cup would be about the best support and guidance we could expect. I would use a separate gas seal.

My thought anyway.

Longbow

[Petander]

I think a full bore plastic sabot about 3/4" long with a nice ball fitting cup would be about the best support and guidance we could expect. I would use a separate gas seal.

My thought anyway.

Longbow

This makes lots of sense. But I'll keep on going full bore smoothbore with no cups for now. More velocity and distance next.

[Cap'n Morgan]

This makes lots of sense. But I'll keep on going full bore smoothbore with no cups for now. More velocity and distance next.

Your groups look fine at 25 meters, they will probably follow a linear dispersion out to about 50 meters. Then Bernoulli's principle (or Magnus effect) takes over and all bets are off...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OSrvzNW9FE&ab_channel=Veritasium

[longbow]

Full bore or sub bore ball, I think a longish ball cradling sabot would help guide the ball to the bore better than a flat topped wad column behind it.

In reality the nitro and hard card wads will deform some around the ball but that is the point... will they deform consistently and without tilting?

The wad column is in free flight from hull mouth to bore as well and even hard card wads compress and distort under 10,000 PSI.

Consistency is our friend and uncontrolled/inconsistent distortion is our enemy!

Got to blame fliers on something after all!

Longbow

[longbow]

Good to see the Cap'n aboard!

For anyone who didn't see it, Cap'n Morgan posted a concept for a 4 "claw" ball holding sabot (non-discarding) a few years ago.

I like the idea but don't have access to injection moulding equipment so took his idea and reworked it for 3D printing. I also wanted a bigger ball so combined BigMrTong's rocket fins for Lee slugs and Cap'n Morgan's ball holding sabot by making a larger cup and going to screw on attachment. Unfortunately I am still waiting for my friend with 3D printer to produce something!

The idea could be used for any ball size and for discarding or non-discarding sabot.

It's all modeled and waiting to go! My friend did print a couple but has some mechanical issues with his 3D printer. The sabots were oval and way off size.

I may have a way of milling a mould for LDPE though.

Longbow

[ASSASSIN]

When you set a bore riding round ball in an inverted shot cup, the ball centers the shot cup in the hull automatically.

Even when loading .690 diameter round balls in a petaled wad, and the round ball is set on top of the inverted shot cup, it is automatically centered at that time.

Best accuracy seems to come from having the inverted shot cup sitting on top of a more solid platform, and in the case of the .690 round ball, a 16 ga. Nitro Card works perfectly when seated in the bottom of the wad, then the inverted shot cup, then the round ball.

When it comes to inconsistencies in a load, I am firmly convinced that short and abrupt forcing cones is the biggest culprit of all! I have tested and proven this many many times over. This is the biggest reason why recovered round balls have inconsistent equator rings around their circumference.

Before I recut and polished the forcing cone in my Remington 870, I would get a very noticeable gouge in my round balls, and from shooting at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards, the round balls were going further to the "right" with each increase in distance, with the round balls being off nearly 2 feet at 100 yards.

Once I cut and polished the forcing cone, I could put a round ball through a vertically placed 2X4 starting at 25 yards, and do the same thing out to 100 yards without issue. No way I could do that before reworking the forcing cone.

This is not just this one barrel. I have seen the same thing, with the same results on well over 100 different barrels, so it is definitely not a fluke.

[Petander]

Thanks everyone,again.

I think I will be happy and stop @ 50 meters if I get 3" . With this gun and this ball. 1400 fps.

I do have a bullet trap @ 75 m and it made sounds the last time I chronoed. My best 20 smoothbore puts ten RB:s (in the cups) in 6-8" at 75 m so it's a max 50 m gun,too. I've gotta accept my limits for peace of mind...

But:

Santa will probably bring me a rifled barrel 870 (Yes I peeked!) so I will be busy all winter. That gun's smooth barrel would be a good forcing cone reaming candidate,too. I'm very excited about the rifled barrel! Up to 100 m maybe...

[ASSASSIN]

Yay Santa!

I hope the rifled barrel will get you more distance. Will definitely be a fun adventure.

Please keep us posted.

[longbow]

Okay then, here are the pics of 2 RB's showing the total swaging on one side of each ball so side 1 has no or almost no swaging to bore, side 2 has the swaging so these had to have entered the bore off center (not sure why two pics flipped but oh well):

https://i.postimg.cc/QdMR4xwR/Ball-1-Side-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/PPB3Nht4)
Ball 1 side 1
https://i.postimg.cc/3NdvfGjk/Ball-1-side-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/WqczhhHV)
Ball 1 side 2
https://i.postimg.cc/c4hpB89R/Ball-2-side-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QHBYXVrC)
Ball 2 side 1
https://i.postimg.cc/P5F0BnkN/Ball-2-side-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/v4fPVjTd)
Ball 2 side 2
https://i.postimg.cc/tgKw4dJj/Hard-Card-Wads.jpg (https://postimg.cc/VSFD7CXG)
Hard card wads

The first question is... Does a ball have sides? Well, you get the drift anyway!

So pretty obvious that these did not enter the bore centered for whatever reason. These are 0.735" RB's (as cast is 0.738"+/-). I do not have any hard card wads recovered from round ball shooting.

The hard card wads were picked up looking like that after shooting more recently and from the small cavity they swaged into and the pin prick in the middle I'd say they were under Nessler Balles. Regardless, they were under full bore slugs. Take a look at how damaged they are and the way they appear to have squirmed off sideways. Also, note the major distortion and tilting. The wads are in free unsupported flight from hull mouth through forcing cone to bore so what stops them from tipping? If they tip then the ball is forced off center.

The point here is that under 8,000 to 10,000 PSI even hard card wads distort. If the wad column under a ball collapses unevenly and tilts that could easily drive the ball to one side of the chamber/forcing cone resulting in what we see in the way these balls swaged to bore.

I was sure I had one ball that appeared to have skewed bands on the equator indicating to me that it was rolling as it hit the bore (sliding up the forcing cone?) but I didn't find it in my stash.

In any case, I believe the wad column is a weak point in our home loaded slugs and that we need to do whatever we can to make it stable and consistent. On that note, plastic wads are not created equal either. The Azot wads and brush wads with the Gualandi style cushion legs appear to be pretty robust and recover they shape well after firing. These appear to have much better cushion leg than many other wads like Winchester. A hard card wad column eliminates the wimpy cushion leg but as you can see, even hard cad wads suffer.

Food for thought!

Having said that I got pretty good consistency and accuracy from my 0.735" RB loads which shot into about 4" at 50 yards from smoothbore. I am happy with that. I have gotten pretty much the same accuracy with cloth patched 0.662" RB's in standard trap wads as well and close with 0.678" RB's which were a slightly loose fit in the trap wads I have.

From a borrowed rifled 870 the same 0.735" RB loads shot into 2" at 50 yards using iron sites... and a badly bruised shoulder by the time I shot those, so likely groups would have been better if I wasn't flinching.

Petander should be looking at groups of 2" or less at 50 yards with his new Christmas present rifled barrel I think. He might be breaking clay pigeons on the 100m berm! Yes, Yay Santa!

Longbow

[ASSASSIN]

How in the world did that hard card wad wrap itself around those round balls??? I have shot literally thousands of round ball loads, and I have never seen anything like that before! Very unusual and interesting to say the least.

I know I have mentioned it before, but there never seems to be much talk about chokes, especially chokes much tighter than improved cylinder, so I thought I would throw this out for arguments sake.

Remington 870 / 30" barrel / lengthened and polished forcing cone.

All testing done @ 50 yards.

.690 Round Ball in Federal 12S4 wad with 16 ga. Nitro Card and 20 ga. inverted gas seal on top of Nitro Card and round ball sitting on top of gas seal.

5- shots from rest.

.740 Choke tube / 7 3/8" group.

.730 Choke tube / 6" group.

.720 Choke tube / 3 1/4" group

.710 Choke tube / 2" group

.700 Choke tube / 1 3/4" group.

.690 Choke tube / 4 1/2" group.

Choke diameter definitely makes a difference in accuracy, but of course, all barrels are different.

[longbow]

Those wads weren't from round ball loads. I included them just to show how much a hard card wad deforms when whacked in the butt with 10,000 PSI. Also, both appear to have cocked off to one side which could happen under a round ball causing it to be jammed to one side of the forcing cone.

[Petander]

.690 Round Ball in Federal 12S4 wad with 16 ga. Nitro Card and 20 ga. inverted gas seal on top of Nitro Card and round ball sitting on top of gas seal.



What kind of 20 gauge seals exactly,please? My 12 gauge seals are the same both sides. Got no 20's now.

More powder, this is 1230 fps. How I wish I had the Pressure Trace system...

https://i.postimg.cc/v8kNPpPp/IMG-20211216-WA0001.jpg

My assistant and a temporary test load desk:

https://i.postimg.cc/FKvy1xTW/IMG-20211216-170138-745.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

Damn, NO flash next time! Those Eyeballs are Death Ray Scary!

It's good to have help when we are working.

Mine was helping me up on the roof while I was working on the Skylight yesterday. He can get up there much easier than I can!

Do you talk to Your Cat in Finnish or Swedish or English ? Or is it Multi Lingual?

Randy

[ASSASSIN]

[QUOTE=Petander;5317518]What kind of 20 gauge seals exactly,please? My 12 gauge seals are the same both sides. Got no 20's now.

I took a Winchester AA-20 wad and cut off the petals and crush section of the wad...

293195


You can also use brush wads, which work well for 2 1/2" shells with a roll crimp.

You can also put the 20 ga. gas seals, with the cup facing "up" in the brush wads, and set a round ball in that.

293196