1911 Frame

[fatelk]

A friend asked me to look at a gun for an acquaintance of his. After looking at it, I really didn't want anything to do with it, but as a favor to him I told him I'd do a little research. You'll understand why.

It's an original USGI Remington-Rand in excellent condition. He recently inherited it from his father, whose father was a WWII combat veteran. The family provenance is solid, he says. The reason I didn't want anything to do with it was that someone somewhere along the way, Dad or Grandpa, got paranoid about the markings on the frame, "U.S. Property" and the serial number, presumably because it had been "liberated" from the service 75+ years ago by Grandpa. Apparently they didn't realize that there are millions of surplus guns in civilian hands with these markings, and it means nothing. Needless to say, where these markings should be, they are not. :(

My understanding is that's a real big no-no. I wouldn't have something like that in my possession, myself, and I told him it's a big problem.

I've heard that there's a way to recover markings that are missing, but it probably wouldn't be practical for something like this. I assume it would be complicated and costly to recover and restamp the original numbers? I told him in my opinion, it would probably be best to just buy a new frame, transfer all the parts onto it, and dispose of the original frame. Anyone know of a good frame to recommend, that would fit best and look nicest with original WWII parts?

It's not my gun and not my project. I'll just pass on the info. He didn't seem very concerned about it, since it's a family heirloom that will never be sold, but that's up to him.

[ddixie884]

Rather than face the hassel, I'd buy the parts and put them on another frame. Of course that would make it a parts gun........

[JimB..]

It may not be much of an issue. The only statute I’m aware of includes language about intent to something or the other, and your friend doesn’t have that intent. He should look at his state statutes. A 1911 isn’t an NFA item, so I don’t think the federal statute applies, but not sure.

[Winger Ed.]

With the heirloom value of it, I'd put it in the safe and leave it like it is.
Maybe take it out and shoot it once in awhile, clean it, and put it back.

If the guy wants a 1911 to shoot & all, just buy a new one.

[Outpost75]

As long as the original serial number is clearly readable there are no issues. If in expertly filed off serial number can probably be recovered with acid.

[imashooter2]

Most states have laws regarding alteration or removal of serial numbers. Google should turn up the actual text of the laws in your state. Read for yourself and know. Here in PA, possession is a felony of the 2nd degree.

[fatelk]

As long as the original serial number is clearly readable there are no issues. If in expertly filed off serial number can probably be recovered with acid.
I don’t know about “expertly”… I about choked when I saw it.

No criminal intent as far as I could tell, but from what I could tell from a basic search online, it looked like a big problem simply for possession. I could be wrong. It’s probably a moot point anyway. I’m very particular myself to avoid anything that’s legally questionable, but not everyone is as overly cautious. I told them I’d look up the info, but it’s his gun and his call.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/#:~:text=If%20the%20firearm%20has%20no,manufacture d%20POST%20October%2022%2C%201968

Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. However, the serial number was removed for aesthetic or other reasons AFTER October 22, 1968. Possession of the firearm is illegal.

Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. This serial number was removed BEFORE October 22, 1968. Under the GCA, possession of the firearm is illegal. However, this is the most difficult scenario we will discuss, and here’s why:

[45DUDE]

You could buy a WWII 1911 in a pawn shop for $25 in the 60's. About all the 1911 R.R.'s I have seen had F.J.A. stamped on the left trigger guard. If you fill out the paper work you can still buy one if you stand in line long enough. They are at every gun show I go to.

[fatelk]

https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/#:~:text=If%20the%20firearm%20has%20no,manufacture d%20POST%20October%2022%2C%201968

Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. However, the serial number was removed for aesthetic or other reasons AFTER October 22, 1968. Possession of the firearm is illegal.

Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. This serial number was removed BEFORE October 22, 1968. Under the GCA, possession of the firearm is illegal. However, this is the most difficult scenario we will discuss, and here’s why:

I will pass this info on. If it were me, I would buy a stripped frame, transfer all the original parts onto it, and scrap the original frame. It would still be mostly the original gun, all but the frame, and still a nice family heirloom, but it would at least be unquestionably legal. Sure, it would be a parts gun of little value to a collector, but as it is now it's less than worthless (in my opinion). If the wrong person were to see it as it is, I suspect that the very LEAST that would happen would be the loss of the gun (and possibly a lot worse). Just my opinion.

Anyhow, I'll pass it along, and thanks all for the input.

[DougGuy]

I bought a complete Auto Ordnance 1911A1 lower off GB for $300 and used mostly WWII era parts and a donated to me RR slide. I have basically what your friend would have if he did the same. A blind man couldn't tell it wasn't WWII GI issue, the only "dead giveaway" is the very nice slide to frame fit (as the slide needed lapped to the frame) as such, it shoots tidy little one hole groups @ ten yards.

292853

[JimB..]

https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/#:~:text=If%20the%20firearm%20has%20no,manufacture d%20POST%20October%2022%2C%201968

Suppose there is a firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. However, the serial number was removed for aesthetic or other reasons AFTER October 22, 1968. Possession of the firearm is illegal.

Suppose there is a non-NFA firearm which was manufactured PRE October 22, 1968. The firearm did have a serial number, as the manufacturer had utilized serial numbers on its firearms voluntarily. This serial number was removed BEFORE October 22, 1968. Under the GCA, possession of the firearm is illegal. However, this is the most difficult scenario we will discuss, and here’s why:
Thanks, good article.

[MUSTANG]

I would simply keep it and shoot it. When/how will it wind up in a Federal/State LEO hands to see the altered # issue? Only if a crime of some sort occurred and then what the heck; larger things to worry about than Great Gramps took a file to it.

[Handloader109]

I do laser engraving. I have FFL so I do firearms engraving. I had a gentleman in roughly the same situation. An owner had remove the serial number off of a pre 1968 handgun. He had received it as an inheritance. He contacted his local dealer and they held the gun and the ATF was contacted. The ATF had him fill out several forms and then roughly 3 YEARS passed before they sent him documentation with a new serial number that the ATF had generated. He brought me the gun, I engraved that serial number on it. The rub was 3 years wait. But he has the whole original gun and it is legal. BTW, the serial number was in the hundreds. This doesn't happen much.
Go this route, or do what Mustang said. I wouldn't try to change out parts.....

[DougGuy]

I wouldn't try to change out parts.....

Huh??? The WHOLE POINT of the 1911 design, is parts interchangeability! From gun to gun, vendor to vendor, manufacturer to manufacturer, doesn't matter who made the part, or even what part is is, if it's made to mil spec, IT FITS.

Re: lapping slide to frame. The AO that I bought was made in 2018 and was a complete gun, it was not an aftermarket frame sold to be built into a working pistol. It was not mil spec, they (AO) had enough sense to slightly enlarge the rails for a better fit in the slide. Unless the OP procured an "improved" frame, an aftermarket or even a used frame should be a drop-in replacement.

[fatelk]

I would simply keep it and shoot it. When/how will it wind up in a Federal/State LEO hands to see the altered # issue? Only if a crime of some sort occurred and then what the heck; larger things to worry about than Great Gramps took a file to it.

I understand, and from his comments I suspect that's exactly what he intends to do. It's all about one's risk tolerance I suppose. For myself, I've been very careful for a very long time to avoid anything legally questionable in my meager collection, but this is not my gun, and the owner seems more comfortable with it than I would be. To each their own.



I do laser engraving. I have FFL so I do firearms engraving. I had a gentleman in roughly the same situation. An owner had remove the serial number off of a pre 1968 handgun. He had received it as an inheritance. He contacted his local dealer and they held the gun and the ATF was contacted. The ATF had him fill out several forms and then roughly 3 YEARS passed before they sent him documentation with a new serial number that the ATF had generated. He brought me the gun, I engraved that serial number on it. The rub was 3 years wait. But he has the whole original gun and it is legal. BTW, the serial number was in the hundreds. This doesn't happen much.
Go this route, or do what Mustang said. I wouldn't try to change out parts.....

Very interesting. It's good to hear that the ATF is at least somewhat understanding with this sort of thing, and has a process to issue a new serial number. I will definitely pass that information on. I have to mention, the owner of the gun is not a gun guy, not evenly remotely; he made that very clear. He's ambivalent at best, and his wife seemed rather anti. I expect that this old gun will rarely if ever be fired. He values it as a family heirloom, but not so much as a gun. This is one of the main reasons I'm not going to go out of my way to help; there's just not much point in it. I told him I'd find some info for him and he can do with it what he will.

Funny anecdote: he also inherited a Glock. His wife was clearly opposed to that, like it was some kind of death ray. She made clear that she didn't want it in her house. Somehow she was OK with keeping the 1911 around. If I'd known them a little better, I'd have pointed out that the old gun she's OK with does the same thing as the Glock, a few less rounds and more powerful, but just as deadly. Yep, got it: Glock= evil death ray of mass murder. Gramp's old army gun= retired, kindly old man, like Gramps. Interesting thought process. :)

[fatelk]

I bought a complete Auto Ordnance 1911A1 lower off GB for $300 and used mostly WWII era parts and a donated to me RR slide. I have basically what your friend would have if he did the same. A blind man couldn't tell it wasn't WWII GI issue, the only "dead giveaway" is the very nice slide to frame fit (as the slide needed lapped to the frame) as such, it shoots tidy little one hole groups @ ten yards.

292853

Very nice, I like it!

[MUSTANG]

:hijack:


Years ago at MCB Quanitco Virginia I went to shoot a Trap Shoot. For some reason they had a young Marine Armorer who was assigned to "Inspect" all the shotguns on the range that day (Only time it ever happened in my times at Quantico). Young Marine looks at my Savage Over & Under shotgun and goes haywire. Claim of " the firearm is ILLLEGAL - It has no serial number!!!!". I explained it was built before 1968 and there was no requirement for a Serial Number before that; just that it was a convenient process for manufacturers to track their sales and production/warranty on civilian firearms back then. He finally calmed down and went and "Got the Gunny". The Gunnery Sergeant came over looked at the Shotgun, laughed, put his arm around the Armorer and walked away with Young Marine giving him an expansion on his knowledge base.

[imashooter2]

I would simply keep it and shoot it. When/how will it wind up in a Federal/State LEO hands to see the altered # issue? Only if a crime of some sort occurred and then what the heck; larger things to worry about than Great Gramps took a file to it.

It’s not the odds, it’s the stakes. Every man must decide for themselves, but I’m not interested in facing 5-10 plus the loss of my firearms rights.

[Outpost75]

I do laser engraving. I have FFL so I do firearms engraving. I had a gentleman in roughly the same situation. An owner had remove the serial number off of a pre 1968 handgun. He had received it as an inheritance. He contacted his local dealer and they held the gun and the ATF was contacted. The ATF had him fill out several forms and then roughly 3 YEARS passed before they sent him documentation with a new serial number that the ATF had generated. He brought me the gun, I engraved that serial number on it. The rub was 3 years wait. But he has the whole original gun and it is legal. BTW, the serial number was in the hundreds. This doesn't happen much.
Go this route, or do what Mustang said. I wouldn't try to change out parts.....

When I was at Ruger we occasionally received recovered gun with obliterated serial numbers. The procedure followed was that if the serial number could be recovered by acid or other forensic means we would either re- number the frame or replace the frame with a new one bearing the same number, then certify destruction of the old one and file a form with ATF.

[Battis]

I have a similar situation. I bought a 1917 S&W .45 revolver. Someone, at some point, removed the lanyard loop on the bottom of the frame butt, and they also removed the serial number. As soon as I realized the problem, I contacted the ATF. They were really helpful. The agent told me not worry about it and gave me the address of their technical department,and told me to contact them and explain what was going on. You can't call them, you have to write to them, and I did, with all the info I had on the gun. From what I was told, as long as the serial number is on the gun in three locations, you can request permission to have the number restamped on the frame. The serial number on mine was on the yoke, the cylinder, inside the grips, and maybe one other place (not to be confused with the assembly numbers). So, I sent the info, and waited. One year, two years. I resent the info and letter "return receipt requested." They received the letter and I'm still waiting, maybe five years later. I contacted the agent a few times and basically I was told that they're very busy and probably not concerned with one gun that was a hundred years old. I could turn in the frame and keep everything else. I was also told that keeping the gun "as is" is not a problem unless I try to sell it - then there's a problem.
I kept copies of all my correspondences, and I'm still waiting for a reply.