Tinsel fairy

[dearslayer]

Well I've read about this topic and dreaded the day I would experience it given the very short time and limited experience I have. Anyway last night after the last day of the controlled shotgun deer hunt ( unsuccessful I might add) I decided I would finish the evening quietly in the garage trying my hand at casting a few 9mm. While I was waiting for the pot to heat up with a few ingots already in there I went to the basement quickly and retrieved about 6 to 8 more ingots that were given to me by a friend of mine. These originally belonged to his dad. When I got back out to the garage I proceeded to place these and ingots near the hot plate to keep them warm before adding to the pot. After the pot heated up and I started casting it was time to add a couple of more ingots to top up the pot. I took one ingot from near the hot plate and put it in no problem. The second one I put in I immediately noticed a small bit of bubbling and at that point I realized it was too late to take it back out. Next thing I know it bubbled like crazy and literally exploded hot lead all over the place. Luckily I always wear my safety glasses gloves and all other manner of attire to ensure I'm totally covered. Only thing that was really exposed was my beard and my face. Luckily neither were harmed. First thing I reach for was my beard to make sure it was all still there. I've been growing it for 3 years or better so it's a bit long.
So aside from the experience itself I'm curious to know why this happened. I did not introduce any water into the molten lead knowingly or otherwise as far as I know. The ingots that were retrieved from the basement were warm not damp and not at near any water. Is it possible the ingots formed some condensation in the cold garage perhaps while sitting near the hot plate and this is what caused the pot explosion?
It made quite a mess and launched up and under the range hood and everywhere else. Quite a bit stuck to the glove on my right hand. Had I not been wearing gloves I'm sure I would have suffered some pretty bad burns. I'm glad I had the cover on my Harley, and after cleaning up I was really apprehensive about adding any more ingots to the pot and when I did I had a piece of plywood in front of me in case there was a repeat incident. Hopefully I don't have to do that all the time going forward! Hope this might be a good reminder to someone else when casting to wear proper clothing and safety glasses etc. 292691292692292693

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[nhyrum]

I get the ingots pretty hot before putting them in, because I had a similar incident. You want to get them hot enough to boil off any water. I also will put them on my spoon and I slowly lower them into the pot.

As for why? I think your guess is literally as good as mine. Depending on where you live, the air can be pretty humid

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[Winger Ed.]

I've had 'bubbles and pops' happen when adding Lead to a pot just from humidity in the air being on them.
I don't add to a pot any more unless the ingots are too hot to touch.

[tazman]

The fact that it bubbled for a bit before it blew suggests there was a small cavity or crack in the ingot that had some moisture in it. It doesn't take much of a cavity to hold enough moisture to do what you pictured.
I worked in a heat treat facility that used molten lead for a heat bath. During the forty odd years I worked there, we had this issue several times. Granted, the ingots we worked with were much larger(50-100 lbs) than the ones commonly used in casting pots but the principle was the same.
One man didn't pre-heat the ingot by setting it on the edge of the lead pot and suffered the effects of the ensuing explosion. The lead pots we used held roughly 1200lbs of lead. At full temperature, they were about 1500 degrees F. His explosion dumped a third of that lead out of the pot. He got hit with lead spray across his stomach and legs. Enough so that he had to go to the emergency room to deal with it. Took him a while to get the burns healed up.
That ingot had about a teaspoon of water in a cavity that wasn't readily visible. If he had pre-heated it, the explosion would not have happened.

Getting the ingots up to 300-400 degrees ensures there won't be any visits from the Tinsel Fairy and helps the lead pot recover heat quicker. You can put the ingots on your hot plate in a small metal pan if you are worried about them melting on it.

[lightman]

I am glad that you were not seriously injured. Thanks for posting this, as we all need to be reminded.

The fact that you had the Fairy visit means that moisture got under the surface of the molten lead. From someplace! Maybe condensation from a cold room into a warm room. Maybe from a bit of oxidation on the ingot? But it came from someplace!

The only visit that I have experienced was from using Marvelux as flux. The stuff that floats to the top will stick to your tools and absorb moisture after it hardens. In my case it was on a string spoon.

I don't use Marvelux anymore. But I do heat my molds on a hot plate and as soon as I start casting I load enough ingots on the vacant hot plate to refill the pot. I try to get them close to their melting temperature.

[imashooter2]

Ingots stored outside can get water in small air pockets and voids that may not evaporate even after many months of being indoors.

[Hodagtrapper]

Thanks for the heads up. Glad you had safety gear on as so many videos I watch on YouTube about lead casting make me cringe do to the lackluster protective clothing/eye protection/gloves!

Chris

[Petander]

It only takes a miniscule drop of H2O to explode vigorously in molten lead . Water expands like 1000 times or so when transformed to steam.

When that expanding happens submerged in molten 600°F lead...

Humidity changes are enough for condensation.

Dearslayer, Congrats for good luck, I have coated my garage roof as well.

[dearslayer]

Ingots stored outside can get water in small air pockets and voids that may not evaporate even after many months of being indoors.


Interesting because the 160 ingots that my friend gave to me belonged to his dad and they were stored on the ground of his Dad's back yard shed. Some of them do have what looks like oxidation on them. They have in on my workbench in the garage since mid summer and I recently took them to the basement so they wouldn't be cold. Maybe the one had moisture in it from being on the ground so long.

[358429]

I am glad you were not burned deerslayer.

[dearslayer]

I am glad you were not burned deerslayer.Thanks. Me too.

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[dearslayer]

Just checking some of these ingots now because I'm very curious. I'm guessing these ones and probably a few other were the ones on the ground and the rest stacked on top. I'll have to go through them and check them all. Looks like some of them have cracks or fissures that could possibly have attracted moisture up into the body of the ingot but I'm definitely no expert in the matter. 292702292703292704292705292706

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[imashooter2]

The way you describe the explosion also lends to water within the ingot… the ingot was dropped in and it wasn’t until it began to melt that the steam explosion happened. Moisture on the outside would have popped right away.

[dearslayer]

The way you describe the explosion also lends to water within the ingot… the ingot was dropped in and it wasn’t until it began to melt that the steam explosion happened. Moisture on the outside would have popped right away.That's exactly it. It was in the pot for about 5-6 seconds before I actually noticed the bubbling and when it did start it REALLY bubbled quickly and then KaBOOM!

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[imashooter2]

More tuition in the college of life! I join the others in thanking God you weren’t seriously hurt.

[Dusty Bannister]

The red residue is most likely iron oxide. If this is soft lead then it is probably plumbing fixture lead that might not have been fluxed and cleaned sufficiently. I have this problem when I am in a hurry to get things melted and into storage. Most of my soft lead is in storage in a metal box outside so there is plenty of temperature and humidity changes to deal with. If the ingots were stacked on the cement floor, cement never actually dries out so that is a moisture source. Sounds like preheating your ingots will be a necessary step in your bullet casting routine. Glad you were "geared up".

[dearslayer]

The red residue is most likely iron oxide. If this is soft lead then it is probably plumbing fixture lead that might not have been fluxed and cleaned sufficiently. I have this problem when I am in a hurry to get things melted and into storage. Most of my soft lead is in storage in a metal box outside so there is plenty of temperature and humidity changes to deal with. If the ingots were stacked on the cement floor, cement never actually dries out so that is a moisture source. Sounds like preheating your ingots will be a necessary step in your bullet casting routine. Glad you were "geared up".

These ingots were actually on "bare dirt" in the back yard shed of my friends Dads place. Lord know how long they were stored there. Quite some time I believe according to his son. I'll be heating the next ones for sure before going in the pot. How long should they be heated up beforehand??

[muskeg13]

Another thing to be careful with is introducing a fluxing spoon or lead ladle to the pot without thoroughly brushing them off. I often hear them sizzling and popping even when clean and find it's best to lay both on the pot rim for a while to warm up before plunging them into the mix.

[imashooter2]

These ingots were actually on "bare dirt" in the back yard shed of my friends Dads place. Lord know how long they were stored there. Quite some time I believe according to his son. I'll be heating the next ones for sure before going in the pot. How long should they be heated up beforehand??

Im not one to tempt fate. I wouldn’t put another one of those into a hot pot. I’d use them to refill a cold pot or I’d melt them all and recast the ingots. You dodged a bullet once…

[dearslayer]

Im not one to tempt fate. I wouldn’t put another one of those into a hot pot. I’d use them to refill a cold pot or I’d melt them all and recast the ingots. You dodged a bullet once…

I was actually thinking that I may melt them all down at some point and recast. I have my own cast ingots I can use in the mean time.

[dearslayer]

So would it be safer to wait till the pot is just about empty and then add more ingots, as if almost starting from the beginning instead of adding to say, a half filled pot? Is the theory then that the ingot melting slowly from the bottom up, will be less likely to explode than if was dunked into a half pot of already molten lead? I would have thought that no matter what, if there is water/ moisture no matter how introduced, would still be the same effect no? Either way it has me a little paranoid that it may happen again. It's a heck of a mess to clean up!

[TjB101]

Ran a pot today of 357 and 44’s and took heed with respects to OP’s post.

Since I keep my ingots in an attached, albeit chilly garage I took 1/2 dozen ingots and tossed them into my PC oven while the pot warmed up. Aside from toasting the ingots I was very pleased that the pot did not loose that much heat when I tossed them in. New process established.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve dated the Tinsel Fairy more than once. I’ve always been lucky. The ingots most likely had a bit of moisture in them after all that time. You could bake them in an oven or leave them out in the sun in the summer. Otherwise, start melting them in a cold pot.

[remy3424]

I was actually thinking that I may melt them all down at some point and recast. I have my own cast ingots I can use in the mean time.

Good idea there, get them all the same alloy and cleaned-up. I do like to try to keep the pot full, have never had an added ingot react, but brother, that one of your made a mess for sure! Glad you had gear on. The only time I had a flair-up was using a used Lyman ingot mold I purchased at a gun show. The first pour into it got crackling and popping, nothing like your event, it did it for a couple pours, less each time. I think the seller had maybe oiled it or sprayed it with WD-40 or similar.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I was actually thinking that I may melt them all down at some point and recast. I have my own cast ingots I can use in the mean time.

That is a good idea.

[Jal5]

I like the melt down and recast idea too. Glad you are ok


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[bangerjim]

Water inclusion can be in ingots! Always inspect them all if stored outside. Heating to about 25F below liquidous temp on your hotplate B4 ever casting them will eliminate any moisture entrained in the ingots.

I would SEROIOUSLY consider recasting all those old bogus ingots to be on the safe side. start with a bunch in your cold re-melting pot and bring up to melt temp and NOT add any new ones. ...start from cold again if there are more.

You can never be too cautious when working around unknow lead and melting it!

Glad you were not injured!

[Hickok]

Deerslayer, glad to hear you are alright.

Thanks for posting this, as it helps keep all of us cautious and alert to the danger.

[Murphy]

I hold fast to one rule regarding the tinsel fairy. PRE-HEAT everything. I keep a hotplate next to my casting pot to sit ingots on for pre-heating. If it's going into molten lead, it's going to get the treatment. I live in a high humidity area and leaving nothing to chance. In short, been there, done that.

The only other word of advice I can offer is this. Hopefully the area where you cast has enough space to leave you a little running room. Soon as you hear a popping sound coming from your casting pot, run!


Murphy

[mdi]

Water expands to steam at a ratio of 1,700 to one. When water goes below the surfade of the melt, as in/on a wet ingot, the expansion is immediate, resulting in an explosion, aka a "Visit from the Tinsel Fairy". Unless the ingots were stored in a dry (competely dry) place the safest method to use them is start them in a cold pot. Some claim water dropped on a pot of melt will also explode, but the water must be below the surface quickly, as carried by an ingot or damp/wet scrap. I have poured water on a pot of melted lead many times and the result is just water dancing onnthe surface and turning into steam (when in my eary teens I cast sinkers on Mom's stove. Normally when she wasn't home and to shorten clean up time, I cooled the pot by pouring water slowly on top of the liquid lead, No problems)...

[358429]

I hold fast to one rule regarding the tinsel fairy. PRE-HEAT everything. I keep a hotplate next to my casting pot to sit ingots on for pre-heating. If it's going into molten lead, it's going to get the treatment. I live in a high humidity area and leaving nothing to chance. In short, been there, done that.

The only other word of advice I can offer is this. Hopefully the area where you cast has enough space to leave you a little running room. Soon as you hear a popping sound coming from your casting pot, run!


MurphyYes always have an Escape Route[emoji41]

[charlie b]

Great lesson. Never had a tinsel moment, probably cause I have always lived here in the SW and kept my lead in dry containers. But, never say never!!

I do like the preheat idea, even for ingots I buy. I keep a plate hot for my molds anyway so laying the next ingot on that plate would be easy.

[dearslayer]

Well thanks to you all I'm learning a wealth of knowledge in a very short amount of time I've been on the forum.

[SteveM54]

Hmmm, that leather welding jacket that I looked at online last week looks like a good idea now. I was just wearing leather gloves & safety glasses but may up the game here a bit. I too recently came into possession of about 1200 pounds of "free" casting lead - all of unknown source or content. The hot plate idea for preheating the ingots will definitely be used also.
Thanks for posting your troubles with the "tinsel fairy". I learned something here !!!!!

[faraim]

A couple of you folks use the term "Cold Pot." what exactly is that? Thanks.

[Dusty Bannister]

When I use the term "cold pot" I mean either the first firing of the session, or after allowing the prior firing to be cold enough that the contents in the pot are solid. Adding room temperature alloy will prevent the alloy remaining in the bottom of the pot from becoming liquid too quickly as the heat will transfer from the alloy to the ingots and they will have time to evaporate any moisture on the ingots.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I've got some ingots stored under cover outside. Even preheated they still bubble and spit a bit when added to the pot, but no tinsel so far. Best thing I have found to reduce the scare factor is to ease them in very slowly with a ladle. Lets them do their bubbling near the top of the pot instead of the bottom and I can back them out if things start to get too exciting.

[Helka]

Glad your ok dearslayer! that was a close call!

[nhyrum]

Another thing to be careful with is introducing a fluxing spoon or lead ladle to the pot without thoroughly brushing them off. I often hear them sizzling and popping even when clean and find it's best to lay both on the pot rim for a while to warm up before plunging them into the mix.I agree with that. ANYTHING that goes into the pot needs to be properly heated to evaporate any moisture. Fluxing spoon, ladle, ingots, anything.

To the op's question above regarding where to refill the pot, I prefer not to let the pot get too low. The reduced head pressure will change how the lead flows out a spout(I bottom pour, I guess if you ladle, disregard) but I also prefer to put a relativity small amount of solid lead (I'm avoiding calling it cold, because it's NOT cold) to the melt to reduce the impact on temperature. Having them sit next to your hot plate simply isn't getting them hot enough. Make sure they're good and hot, and KEPT good and hot for a while before adding them to the pot. Not only does the lead need to throughout reach at least 212°F(or slightly lower at higher altitudes than sea level) but it needs to actually reach a higher temperature (a pot with boiling water won't be able to get hotter than the boiling point until the water is gone. Put a styrofoam cup with water in it in a fire. The cup where the water is won't melt), and be held there to make sure any and all water is gone. I generally try to keep the ingot on top of my pot for at least 15 to 20 minutes. Then, in an abundance of caution(like I've said above) I put the ingot in my fluxing spoon and slowly drop the ingot into the molten lead. If there's any moisture in the lead, it will get evaporated out before it gets below the surface of the lead.

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[GRid.1569]

The fact that it bubbled for a bit before it blew suggests there was a small cavity or crack in the ingot that had some moisture in it. It doesn't take much of a cavity to hold enough moisture to do what you pictured.
I worked in a heat treat facility that used molten lead for a heat bath. During the forty odd years I worked there, we had this issue several times. Granted, the ingots we worked with were much larger(50-100 lbs) than the ones commonly used in casting pots but the principle was the same.
One man didn't pre-heat the ingot by setting it on the edge of the lead pot and suffered the effects of the ensuing explosion. The lead pots we used held roughly 1200lbs of lead. At full temperature, they were about 1500 degrees F. His explosion dumped a third of that lead out of the pot. He got hit with lead spray across his stomach and legs. Enough so that he had to go to the emergency room to deal with it. Took him a while to get the burns healed up.
That ingot had about a teaspoon of water in a cavity that wasn't readily visible. If he had pre-heated it, the explosion would not have happened.

Getting the ingots up to 300-400 degrees ensures there won't be any visits from the Tinsel Fairy and helps the lead pot recover heat quicker. You can put the ingots on your hot plate in a small metal pan if you are worried about them melting on it.

I recall reading somewhere that 1ml of water will create 1.5lt of steam... a 1500x increase in volume... that’s what empties the pot... scary stuff...

[pjames32]

I would use those ingots ONLY when starting with a cold pot OR melt them all down and remake the ingots, again with a cold pot to start.

[Markopolo]

I make it a absolute practice to NEVER add lead to a molten pot. i Always wait for a pot to solidify completely... i too have been visited by the fairy and it has taught me a valuable lesson. and, I alway use a heavy cast iron lid on my mining scrap pot that I pour ingots from. there have been several explosions inside that pot over the years from mining lead from recovered bullets. they just love to hold moisture... I even had a live round get mixed in once. thank God for the lid.