lube

[salvadore]

uberti '73 win using 454190. different powder amounts changing the amount of compression, all bullets go straight, no key holes, but accuracy sucks with bp, 777, pyrodex with almost exact results, appears to be lube to end of barrel. my smokeless load is 11gr, #5 with gc rnf. results in 1.5" groups @ 50 about as good as I can see.

anyway, is it possible the 454190 doesn't carry enough lube? would anyone invest in a "big lube" mold?

[country gent]

If your getting a good lube star on the muzzle that shouldnt be a big problem then you have lube past the muzzle.
The problem might lie with the bullet a gas checked Hard bullet my not seal the bore as good as a softer one with no gas check.

[Dave T]

I can guarantee you the 454190 does not carry enough black powder lube, at least that has been my experience over the years. To solve this problem I started buying 250g Big Lube 45 Colt bullets, cast of 1-20 alloy and lubed with SPG from Mark Whyte (www.WhyteLeatherWorks.com). He will size them either .452" or .454" as needed. They shoot quite accurately from my USFA single actions and I've fired as many as 50 rounds of full power black powder loads with out the cylinder binding from BP fouling.

YMMV,
Dave

[Don McDowell]

If that bullet is a gas check and you're not seating the gas check that could be most of the problem. With the lube star at the muzzle the amount of lube isn't the problem, it's more likely the size of the bullet or powder charge causing the accuracy problems.
My favorite 45 colt bullet is one I cast from the RCBS 260 Kt, either 16-1 or 20-1. I pretty much use Bullshops NASA lube on all the grease groove bullets with either smokeless or black.

[salvadore]

i
I'm not being clear, my bp bullet is the 454190, soft alloy. have tried .450, .452,and .454 sizing with almost the same results. Ditto p0wders, 777, bp, and pyrodex, not much difference in accuracy (poor). I included my smokeless load results to illustrate that accuracy is achievable. If I am running out of lube would my bullets key hole? BTW, my lube is darr which has always served me well, and a thin commercial card between bullet and powder.

[Don McDowell]

Is your smokeless load using the same bullet as what you're trying with the fake stuff and the real bp?

[Tar Heel]

It has been my experience that a larger lube payload is advisable with BP. I use either SPG or White's BP1 lube for BP cartridges. If I am shooting that day, I will use one of my homemade lubes in tallow/wax mixtures. I reserve smokeless lubes for smokeless propellants. I use the Accurate 450250D bullet (the 454190 clone), crimped over the top lube groove for the 1873 & 1866 variants to maintain <1.60" COAL. Filling both lube grooves provides enough lube for the BP loads. I crimp OVER the upper groove, encapsulating it too in the case.

292723

[Randy Bohannon]

Measure the case mouth of a fired cartridge and see where that is,the fattest bullet that will chamber is the right size. I suspect bullet fit is the problem and would start there, 45 Colt is not a difficult cartridge to get to shoot at least decent when the bullet fits.

[Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang]

The 454190 is a 19th century design and they didn’t have anything but revolvers in .45 Colt back then. It may be that it doesn’t carry enough lube for a longer barrel. I love the bullet in my Uberti Model P, shoots great with BP.

[Outpost75]

Bullets are too small. Try pan lubing and shooting unsized at .455-.456 with 50-50 olive oil and beeswax.

[Castaway]

To confirm lack of lube is the proble, you might try putting a lubed felt wad or lube cookie under the bullet and see if that helps your problem

[almar]

in mine for BP i use

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-260F

[greenjoytj]

I my 45 cal win/Miroku m73, 24” barrel with 35 grs of real BP 2fg Goex.
Cleaning with a pull through breach to muzzle the pull through bogged heavily about 8” from the muzzle. I was shooting a LEE 255 RF and that bullet has 2 narrow lube grooves that are not very deep. My lube was homemade Emmerts Improved cast with 20:1 rotometals alloy.
This handload works great in the 5.5” barrel of my Ruger revolvers.
For the 24” rifle barrel this bullet didn’t carry enough lube, hard crusty fouling built up in the front 8” of my barrel proving that to me.

The LEE bullet lube groove capacity is similar to the OP Lyman 454190, it a handgun bullet.

I switched to casting a Lyman 452664 it has a single wider and deeper lube groove.
My rifle barrel got adequately lubed but a got leading and blamed the bevel base creating a narrow base drive band and perhaps some of the lube maybe getting blast down the bore because of the narrow base drive band. I found both BP fouling and the lead were easily brushed out.
I need to slug the M73 barrel some day.

In November received a new bullet mold an Accurate 45-260F, it has a wide and deep lube groove and a plain base with a wide base drive band and a crimp groove which is more important for smokeless powder use to prevent bullet setback. It’s to cold to cast now but I have high hopes for this new mold and bullet come spring.

[salvadore]

Had not thought of that. My smokeless load is 1.5"@ 50yds with a .452 bullet and I read Uberti
barrels run tight, that's as good as I CAN see. My ability to slug barrels pretty much sucks too. My lube is 50/50 canning wax and vaseline, works pretty good for my other loads including the smokeless one I use in the Uberti. I can try some unsized too.

[salvadore]

That was for OP75.

[MC One Shot]

Had not thought of that. My smokeless load is 1.5"@ 50yds with a .452 bullet and I read Uberti
barrels run tight, that's as good as I CAN see. My ability to slug barrels pretty much sucks too. My lube is 50/50 canning wax and vaseline, works pretty good for my other loads including the smokeless one I use in the Uberti. I can try some unsized too.

I was just going to ask you that. If I may suggest see if you can find someone who can slug or cast your chamber/bore. There are at times hidden surprises.

[Sasquatch-1]

My lube is 50/50 canning wax and vaseline,

This may be your problem. Black powder and petroleum-based products do not play well together.

[salvadore]

I've heard that sq1, I have a pretty good supply of beeswax, need to order some lanolin and castor oil and see if I can figure out my formula from 15 or so years ago. Changing the lube and using unsized bullets would be the cheapest change. BTW I have shot my gas checked bullet with either 777 or pyrodex and shot pretty good groups.

[M-Tecs]

would anyone invest in a "big lube" mold?

Not a fan of DD products. If purchasing a new mold I would recommend working with Tom at https://www.accuratemolds.com/ for a suitable design.

[Nobade]

Not a fan of DD products. If purchasing a new mold I would recommend working with Tom at https://www.accuratemolds.com/ for a suitable design.

I guess they're fine for the intended purpose of CAS with cruddy powder. I tried a few and the only one worth keeping was the Snakebite 38 cal. For some reason that design is super accurate in my rifle. I have sold off the 32 cal mold a long time ago, but last night I was testing out a new lube recipe and noticed I had a box of those left. I loaded up some of them and some #3118 for my little rolling block. At 25 yards the #3118 was pretty much one ragged hole and the big lube bullets went into about a 10 inch group. But they didn't try to foul out!

As for the OP and back to topic, yes the #454190 is kind of skimpy in the lube department for rifles. But they work great for me in my wife's Marlin Cowboy by duplexing 10% smokeless under the charge and reducing the black accordingly. Still feels and sounds like black but never fouls out and is super accurate. That might be worth a try to see how it works for you.

[Springfield]

Using the right bullet for the job is important. 454190 was intended for revolvers. The 32 Big lube was intended for small pocket pistols. The Big Lube DD moulds work fine for CAS shooting, but with the big flat meplats they aren't very aerodynamic, and mostly suck at real long range shooting. I have most every DD mould made, some of them I designed myself, but I also have many Accurate Molds, as I don't only shoot CAS events. Bullet fit is important, but also having a bullet soft enough for BP shooting also helps. I have a 38-55 rifle that I got for a very good deal as the shooter was using hard, too small, skimpily lubed bullets and couldn't hit the side of a barn with it. I just used a softer better lubed bullet and it now works great.
As for lube, there are many good recipes out there, but if there just isn't enough for BP use it won't matter what you use. If you have a large enough lube groove it almost anything will work as long as it keeps the fouling soft.

[Nobade]

Using the right bullet for the job is important. 454190 was intended for revolvers. The 32 Big lube was intended for small pocket pistols. The Big Lube DD moulds work fine for CAS shooting, but with the big flat meplats they aren't very aerodynamic, and mostly suck at real long range shooting. I have most every DD mould made, some of them I designed myself, but I also have many Accurate Molds, as I don't only shoot CAS events. Bullet fit is important, but also having a bullet soft enough for BP shooting also helps. I have a 38-55 rifle that I got for a very good deal as the shooter was using hard, too small, skimpily lubed bullets and couldn't hit the side of a barn with it. I just used a softer better lubed bullet and it now works great.
As for lube, there are many good recipes out there, but if there just isn't enough for BP use it won't matter what you use. If you have a large enough lube groove it almost anything will work as long as it keeps the fouling soft.

I just remembered, I have one of the molds you designed. The Springfield Slim, about 150 grains for the 44 if I remember correctly. I haven't shot those in years, thanks for the reminder. I need to get it out and play with it some.

[Springfield]

It is called the 44Slim. I have started using it again after a few years of not, trying to get a bit faster in competition using a lighter bullet. I have even started shooting 2 handed instead of Duelist style( the horror!). I am experimenting with some cut-down 44-40 shells, basically a 44 Russian but slightly larger diameter. My 2 kids were getting close to beating me and I had to do something about it. Just in my pistols, still run full loads of BP with 44-40 shells in the rifles.

[Silhouette]

When researching lube, don't Google "Crisco lube formula".
The results have nothing to do with bullets! :oops::oops:

[Outpost75]

With BP I've found nothing better than beeswax-olive oil in over 50 years fooling with the stuff.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Honest question, as I don't use muzzle loaders too often: What sort of bad things happen if a person uses typical smokeless lubes (50/50, LBT Blue, commercial soft reds, etc.) w/ Black powder?
I have heard not to do it, and I take it at face value.
However, for a few shots in a day (10?) w/ LEE REAL and a CVA in line, some time in the past I have done it, and the gun did seem to clean up just fine.
No argument intended, and I have made up some beeswax-olive oil to use next time, but just curious what would happen if someone did this more often, or for longer shot strings, or...

[Castaway]

Turnip Eater, the primary purpose of a black powder lube is to keep the fouling goopy. Since the velocities are sedate, leading is not generally an issue, but black powder lubes do that job too. If shooting black powder with a hard lube used for smokeless loads, fouling will quickly collect in the barrel and accuracy will go south.