TROUBLESHOOTING MY CAST/POWDERCOATED 228g RN FOR 45 ACP

[DHCraig]

A couple weeks ago I purchased a couple molds, Lee sizers, powder coat from Smoke4320 (a great transaction BTW) and amongst other calibers, cast 600 rounds from a new Lee 452-228 mold & powder-coated them. I sized them (twice) with a brand new Lee .452 sizing die after powder coating, which my micrometer shows are usually coming out at .4525 at best.

I loaded 100 of these yesterday, and took 3 mags out back today to test performance. Accuracy is excellent, but I stopped shooting and took the rest back to the bench after a couple failed to chamber. Went over the entire lot after cleaning -the barrel had some leading despite the powder coat.

My thought is that the new sizing die is out of spec, though I'd have thought .0005 to be acceptable. I haven't slugged the barrel, but accuracy has always been excellent with plated bullets (never any chambering issue or leading) sized at .4520. I measured some of the Berry's plated bullets I have (which chamber and shoot flawlessly) and they come out at .4520 as advertised. Is it the ".452" die or should I be using a .451 with the PC polymer jacket?

[JimB..]

Did you smash test after powder coating?

Pull a few of the bullets and see if you’re scraping off the powder coating in the seating process.

How hard are the bullets, what alloy?

It is unlikely that your bullets are too large, but it never hurts to slug the barrel.

Please describe what you mean by “accuracy is excellent.” How big are groups, at what range?

You were having feeding problems, did you find the cause?

[Dusty Bannister]

The Lee 452-228-1R has been a problem bullet for many users. It requires shorter seating and powder coating makes that even worse. Use the search feature to read some of the threads on this particular bullet form and see how others have had to resolve the problem. You do not mention which firearm you are using and some just will not accept that bullet.

[Valley-Shooter]

Lead bullet alloys are elastic.
You sized the bullet down thru a sizing die and it bounces back to a slightly larger size. Change to a different bullet alloy and it might come out the size you want or maybe not.
Change to a smaller sizing die is the easy fix.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[DHCraig]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the response.

I did, in the beginning few rounds, scrape some off. Using a set of old but reliable Pacific dies and I got sloppy the first 10 or so rounds, not enough case mouth flare for lead. Had it set for the plated I usually used and it did cut the PC. I increased the case mouth flare substantially on the rest of them and saw no sign of the polymer being cut/rolled.

Have no BHN tester. I have hundreds of pounds of wheel weights and keel lead melted over the last 41 years for decoy weights, and I often dropped chilled lead shot in as I cast them. I reloaded trap rounds and it was interesting back then (I never contemplating reloading for pistol or rifle though) comparing hardness levels. Its quite a mix, but what I have. My remaining pure I now cast for .50 & .58 BP rifles (Hawken and 1861 Springfield). I dropped all of this .452 batch hot into water, but I did not add (additional?) antimony (have 4 @ 25lb bags of lead shot I could use though)... Have no source for linotype, yet. I know what I "thought" this stuff was in BHN, but I guess the answer is to build or buy a tester. Stupidly I have not done a smash test, but will tomorrow.

My accuracy comment was based on < 16 shots offhand standing at 12.5 yards into the base of a ~5" circle (a small log end-on), which I suppose isn't much to go by (though it's fairly split to pieces). I've never been a group-sizer: If I've got lead on target as I shoot, I consider it accurate. I'll shoot a box of them resting into a paper target at 25 yards and really measure.

Feeding problems were 100% the over-sized bullets, which at this point has me ready to order a .451 die and compare. Despite my experience in reloading lead bullets are new to me and I really appreciate all input I can get- thanks!

[DHCraig]

Thanks Valley-Shooter! I suspected that after double-sizing these, but wasn't sure. A .451 die may, with the alloy I've used, do the trick then.

[DHCraig]

Thanks for the response Dusty B, I wondered about that too. Comparing the Lee nose to the rounds I had been using shows the former to be fatter. I'll have to try another mold too. Using an original Colt Government Army 1911 (1917 production) in original configuration. My only .45 to date, and accurate enough to shoot bowling pins at 50 yards offhand....

I was going to wait until the AM, but after checking the posts as suggested I just tried loading a shorter OAL... bingo. Drop test passed with zero issues. Suspect after testing this and a few more tomorrow and checking for leading I'll likely have to load this bunch shorter and try a 2R mold. Aggravating, the 1R mold casts really well.

[mdi]

If you measured, with mics, the diameter and got .4525" the size of the bullets and the sizing die is OK. Did you plunk the loaded rounds? Any time there is a fit problem measure. Measure along the OD in a few places and double check OAL. When you find out where the bullet is too big, then you can determine when it happens and correct it. Just a couple thoughts; failures to chamber are often caused by over crimping, failurer to remove flare and in the case of Lee molds the 1R bullet has a fat, stubby ogive and needs deeper seating than other bullets, regardless of diameter. If the chamber is getting debris from the PC and/or powder, that too can cause problems.

For a 45 ACP cast, BHN isn't critical. I often use my "Mystery Metal" which is a mix of scrap, old bullets, range lead and wheel weights, runs about 12 BHN, and hardness is less critical when PCing. The only time I experienced any leading was when my PCing wasn't up to par or I shaved PC during seating. How many rounds did you fire before chambering problems?

[GL49]

A friend of mine had a similar problem, some of the rounds wouldn't chamber in his new Sig, he said he found two problems. They would feed, but not fully seat in the chamber. One was brass length, he was trying to remove the bell with a crimp die rather than a taper crimp. Shorter brass left too much bell remaining and they wouldn't fully seat against the shoulder in the chamber. He also found a couple of the military brass mixed in with the commercial were making the loaded cartridges just a little too "fat". His Sig was really picky about brass and brass length. He was shooting my cast boolits sized at .452, I just checked and it is a Lee 1R mould. I've always sorted my brass for headstamp and used a taper crimp.

Just a thought.

[DHCraig]

Thank you all for the responses. I took a few from the first batch I had sized at a 1.270 OAL out back and tried cycling them through my Colt (not firing) and wound up with the first bullet stuck in the barrel. Spent most of the afternoon reading over posts on the 452-228-1R and the suggestions here, and after reloading a few to a shorter OAL (1.245), all cycled fine.

Did some smash testing & eliminated my powder coating as an issue. I pulled a few rounds that looked fine, and half had powder coat shaved by the case mouth (I assume) despite a fairly heavy flare- something I've never done or had to with plated. I'm not sure if it is something I'm doing wrong or my old but beloved Pacific dies... When loading the shorter OAL rounds I found that the nose on the stem of the Pacific seating die tends to nick the PC, something I didn't stop to think of until reading the posts here, so my guess is the 1R bullet is getting canted on the way in, cutting the PC and hence leading.

Time to get another seating die for these and try a 2R mold I guess.

[243winxb]

A seating die may remove the case flare to soon, shaving the* bullet. I would size to .451" or modify seat dies inside diameter, larger.

Or turn seat plug way down to get correct oal. Keeping the round from fully entering the die. Then taper crimp in a separate die.

[wv109323]

A couple of things may be happening. The end of the chamber may be scrapping off some of the PC while the bullet is seating and it accumulates at the mouth of the barrel. After a while it will not allow a round to chamber..
Also if you are seating and crimping, this could cause the same problem with excess PC at the front of the chamber.
Plunk test your rounds in the chamber for proper oal.

[Iowa Fox]

Had the same thing happen to me on a 45 that never skipped a beat.

First I was suspicious of bullet diameter

Second case length

What I found is some pieces of range brass got mixed in with my brass and the brass right above the rim was a hair oversize. The rounds would chamber but the pistol lacked just a touch of going into battery. I ran the brass thru a Lee bulge buster and end of issue. Take your barrel off and do a plunk test.

[Petander]

Have you measured pulled bullet's base diameter?

I'd check that out, sometimes the bases get swaged down during seating when you flare only. I prefer an M-Die style expander like NOE makes. Makes seating straight and easy.

A tight (FMJ saami spec) seating die can swage the whole round with an oversize cast bullet.

Good luck,it will work out.

[gwpercle]

The Lee 452-228-1R is the very first 45 acp mould I ever bought ... There is something Wonky about the 1R profile ... It didn't work right in a Colt Commander , Colt Gold Cup , Star Model PS or a AMT hardballer . It is THE ONLY bullet mould I ever sold ...$2.00 at a garage sale and I tried to talk the guy out of buying it ... he said he had a 1917 S&W so wasn't concerend with feeding ... I sold it to him but felt guilty .
If you keep it ...try seating the bullets shorter ... the 1R needs a little deeper seating...but if you go just a hair to deep ...the feeding problems start again ...it's a dog .
Just go with something in a RF , SWC or Truncated Cone .
... Lee 452-200-SWC works like a black magic charm !
Gary

[ShooterAZ]

Yep, the Lee 452-228-1R is a poor design IMHO. I bought the mold and cast several hundred boolits with it and discovered that it was a dog as gwpercle has mentioned above. I switched over to the RCBS 45-230-RN for uses for a round nosed boolit. That boolit is a real winner in my book, no problems in any of my 45's, and provides excellent accuracy and no problems feeding. The RCBS 45-201-SWC is another boolit that works perfectly in all my 45's.

[DHCraig]

Thanks for the input gents. This evening started by resetting my Pacific seating die to be absolutely sure it wasn't crimping, and since the "by-the-book" way to do so was to use a primed and charged case I wound up reloading two more using the base-line reduced charge I chose for testing with deeper seating. Made sure there was an appreciable belling to the case mouth (though much more than I ever used before) and set them to my standard 1.260 OAL, then pulled the barrel off my Colt and started drop-testing. Had to deep set them, with a final OAL of 1.225-1.230, and then reset the die for a mild crimp, which is all I can really get from my Pacific seating die. They both passed the plunk test.

I then went back over all my already-loaded rounds using the Colt barrel, which I can't seat deeper due to the powder charge, and crimped them at a slightly increased die setting (at least I hoped it was a little tighter given my die)- it worked, all 85 passed. As brought up by many here (and others too observed with that mold after I finally found the right search terms for the Forum history) it seems the 1R ogive plus a mil or two of PC is just enough to hang them up when loaded to my usual 1.260 OAL despite my Colt's excellent throat. I going to order a .451 sizing set and a 2R mold, and perhaps a TC mold too.

Also went ahead and loaded 15 more rounds using the above separate seating and crimping steps, and plunked them too successfully. What I noticed though was that despite the ample belling I was able to get from my sizing die, a few of the rounds shaved PC on the way in. Admittedly I'm new at cast and have a bunch to learn, but seems to me despite the increased belling that some of the rounds are getting canted by the nose of the seating die. It is part of the threaded shaft that sets the depth and shape is such that I can't suitably modify it, nor do I really want to given how well it has worked for me with everything else I've loaded. Hoping that with a .451 die I may be able to get it more snug in the case before seating. Otherwise I'll try a new die set.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your experience- Cast really is a great fun!

[Forrest r]

Something you might consider looking into is your expander die & more specifically the design of the expander button itself. Lyman m-dies are good for cast as is NEO bullet mold company. NEO makes expander buttons that screw into the lee universal expander die. Well worth going to the NEO website and looking around.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/

Cast bullets are typically longer than their jacketed counterparts. A picture of a lyman m-die, as you can see it goes deeper into the case along with having a small ring at the top of the expander button. That little ring (step) creates a shelf that the bullet sits on aiding in the bullet starting straight when seating it.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg

I use a lyman m-die to expand my 45acp cases when reloading the cast/coated bullets. A m-die next to a factory lee expander button. If you look at the lee expander you can see a ring/high water mark left by the brass/where the top of the brass ends from being flared enough to accept a bullet into the case. Basically, the m-die goes twice as deep into the case protecting the bullets base from being swaged down. Along with creating a shelf for the bullet to sit on aiding in starting the bullet strait.
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

left: cramer 5f hb swc 175gr
center: mihec #68 clone swc 200gr
right: mihec 200gr rfn hp
The brass is mixed range brass (far left is really scratched up) and the bullets are 8/9bhn sized to .452". There's a +/- 3/1000th's taper crimp on them along with the typical +/- 20/1000th's of the shoulder of the bullet sticking above the mouth of the case. The bullet on the far right is seated deeper than the 20/1000th's shoulder to get it to feed reliably. That bullet's nose design is kind of touchy when it comes to oal's.
https://i.imgur.com/lZyBjGD.jpg

[David2011]

Another option might be the Lyman 452374. It very closely replicates the original .45 ACP profile. I concur with other comments that a semiwadcutter or truncated cone would work well, too.

[DHCraig]

Forrest r, thanks for the detailed info on the M die and NOE. Considering both options, and sooner or later I'm going to need them for some of the other calibers I plan to cast when my supply of jacketed and plated start to run down. This exercise already came in handy when loading my first cast/PC for 35 Remington. Only loaded two rounds to start, and discovered what you and others here mention about cast needed greater depth. Pulled both rounds as they shaved going in (discovered my rcbs expander worn down) but beveled the inside of the case mouths with my deburring tool and belled the mouths by .010 using a fat taper punch and presto, no shaving. Had to seat them .050 deeper than my data min OAL to get them to chamber perfectly in my 1951 Marlin 336, but all is well, just started to work up a new load for that OAL.

As you and David2011 (and others) mentioned, decided to get another mold too, likely a TC to start, and later a 2R mold to play around with. Working up a load for the 1R for now, but I haven't got used to seeing 45 acp with bullets seated like a 9x18 LOL.