Seating for OAL

[dearslayer]

Not sure if this is the proper area to post this so if not Mods please move.

I cast my own bullets a few weeks ago and powder coated them. They are 125 gr RN. When I reload them accordingly to the Lee reloading manual the OAL states 1.125 minimum for a 125 lead cast bullet, however if I seat the bullet at that spec it does not seat in the barrel of either my CZ shadow 1 or my CZ P10C. I have to seat them around 1.092 for the Shadow and around 1.085 for the P10C. So is this ok and if so should I seat them all to the lowest OAL of 1.085 for both? I think the PC might be a little thick perhaps causing them to hang up?? Is that possible?
Also just a note that even at both these OAL measurements they hang up in my case guage but they pass the plunk test in both the barrels.

[kevin c]

I’m not clear on something here: the longer COL passes the plunk test (dropped in cartridge case mouth hits the front edge of the chamber), but the same round “doesn’t seat”? Are you saying the longer round won’t feed properly from a magazine when racking the slide, but drops and turns freely in the chamber of the removed barrel?

If that’s the case, I’d think the issue is that the longer round isn’t breaking over when feeding. That could be magazine specific; try other mags to be sure. If it happens in all mags then the bullet profile (ogive) at that length is contacting the top of the chamber and binding before the cartridge “ breaks over” to feed directly into the chamber. The shorter round lets the cartridge straighten out before it binds.

ETA: Shortening by 0.040” is enough that I personally would want to drop the powder charge significantly and work back up if it was originally near the maximum. (Oh, now I see that ryanmattes brought that up).

ETA again: I find my loads will bind in a case gauge for a couple reasons. One is that a combination of thick brass and oversized boolits choke a minimum SAAMI spec gauge around the case body (I don’t use Lee FCD sizers). Another is that if I have enough of the bearing surface of the boolit protruding from the case mouth, it can bind in the bullet section of the gauge, beyond the case section. I’m not sure those are reamed out to any standard; in any case that area of my gauges seems tighter than the leades of my OFM barrels.

[ryanmattes]

You can seat them that short, I've loaded 9mm that short before, but you need to load a ladder from the minimum charge up, and check for pressure signs.

The reduced volume in the case from the shorter seating depth will increase pressure, sometimes dramatically, so you'll be getting higher pressures than the book data with the shorter seating depth.

So start at the minimum charge and work your way up until you either get the groups you like or you start seeing pressure signs.



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[AndyC]

CZs simply have barrels with short leade (the short section of the chamber in front of the throat where the rifling begins) - I sent mine off to DougGuy here on the forum to get mine reamed a little deeper and now it'll run anything.

Not just CZ, for that matter - many manufacturers seem to be doing this where they feed factory jacketed just fine but not handloads. It's rather irritating as I have liked to gift some of my 9mm ammo to people and then encountered chambering issues in friends' S&W Shields, Walthers, etc. It annoyingly makes my reloading skills look incompetent when it's the pistols' chambers at fault - and of course "But factory ammo chambers just fine!" is hard to counter without drawing someone a diagram.

I finally went with a different bullet design where the curve of the bullet, the ogive, starts early - as it's the straight shank of the bullet (ie. its widest diameter) meeting the short leade that causes this.

In your instance, if you don't want to have the chamber reamed you'll have to either seat that bullet deep enough for it to clear (and adjust your powder-charge if appropriate) or get a different mold.

[dearslayer]

I’m not clear on something here: the longer COL passes the plunk test (dropped in cartridge case mouth hits the front edge of the chamber), but the same round “doesn’t seat”? Are you saying the longer round won’t feed properly from a magazine when racking the slide, but drops and turns freely in the chamber of the removed barrel?

If that’s the case, I’d think the issue is that the longer round isn’t breaking over when feeding. That could be magazine specific; try other mags to be sure. If it happens in all mags then the bullet profile (ogive) at that length is contacting the top of the chamber and binding before the cartridge “ breaks over” to feed directly into the chamber. The shorter round lets the cartridge straighten out before it binds.

ETA: Shortening by 0.040” is enough that I personally would want to drop the powder charge significantly and work back up if it was originally near the maximum. (Oh, now I see that ryanmattes brought that up).

ETA again: I find my loads will bind in a case gauge for a couple reasons. One is that a combination of thick brass and oversized boolits choke a minimum SAAMI spec gauge around the case body (I don’t use Lee FCD sizers). Another is that if I have enough of the bearing surface of the boolit protruding from the case mouth, it can bind in the bullet section of the gauge, beyond the case section. I’m not sure those are reamed out to any standard; in any case that area of my gauges seems tighter than the leades of my OFM barrels.

Perhaps I confused things. Neither the 1.092 or 1.085 OAL will not pass the plunk test in my case guage. They drop in the guage but they stick and won't drop freely when turned upside down without a little nudge on the bullet nose.
The 1.092 will pass the plunk test in the shadow barrel but not in the P10 barrel.
The 1.085 also passes the plunk test in the P10 barrel. These rounds are loaded with 3.5gr of Titegroup. According to the Lee reloading manual 3.6 is minimum and 4.0 is maximum. I had already tried 3.5gr based of the Hodgdon reloading site and they shot fine. Not sure what changed with the bullets till now because when I seated the last ones when first cast and powder coated, at 1.12 they dropped from the case guage fine. This isn't even making sense to me at all. In fact it's just confusing me even more. Perhaps I need to start from scratch again.

[Ed_Shot]

What is the 125 RN boolit you are casting? Is it the Lee 356-125-2R?

[dearslayer]

What is the 125 RN boolit you are casting? Is it the Lee 356-125-2R?

Yes in fact it is. It's sized with the Lee .357 sizing die after powder coating.

[ryanmattes]

All of the below loads are sized to .357 and coated with HiTek.

I load the Lee 356-120-TC, which weighs 125gr with my alloy, at 1.075 with 3.5gr of titegroup behind it. Feeds and chambers great in everything I've put it through.

I've loaded the Lee 358-125-RF, which weighs about 129-130gr with my alloy, as deep as 1.030 in order to cover the crimp groove, with 3.6 grains of titegroup without issues.

I usually load that one at 1.072-1.075, though, and use Unique. The TC is my go-to 9mm load, but I've experimented with the RF a bunch.

I shoot both out of various pistols, but mostly Sigs.

I think you're probably fine at 1.085, with around 3.5gr of titegroup, give or take a couple tenths, in 9mm.

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[fredj338]

OAL is the most misunderstood aspect of reloading imo. Forget the book, it really doesnt apply. OAL is always bullet & guns specific. So the book is a guide, not the bible. Make a dummy round, check in your barrel for proper fit using the book OAL. If it doesnt fit, shorten by 0.010" & check again. Yes you have to do this for every gun & every bullet change, even within the same bullet weight.
OAlL does not have the effect on pressures many fear. If you are working the load up from below midpoint, & staying off max, going a bit shorter has little effect on pressures.

[fredj338]

Perhaps I confused things. Neither the 1.092 or 1.085 OAL will not pass the plunk test in my case guage. They drop in the guage but they stick and won't drop freely when turned upside down without a little nudge on the bullet nose.
The 1.092 will pass the plunk test in the shadow barrel but not in the P10 barrel.
The 1.085 also passes the plunk test in the P10 barrel. These rounds are loaded with 3.5gr of Titegroup. According to the Lee reloading manual 3.6 is minimum and 4.0 is maximum. I had already tried 3.5gr based of the Hodgdon reloading site and they shot fine. Not sure what changed with the bullets till now because when I seated the last ones when first cast and powder coated, at 1.12 they dropped from the case guage fine. This isn't even making sense to me at all. In fact it's just confusing me even more. Perhaps I need to start from scratch again.

This is NOT OAL issue but crimp issue. A case gage can not tell you anything about OAL, it has no rifling.

[kevin c]

Agh. Old brain. Now I remember that break over issues happen more with short rounds, not long. My apologies.

Short/no leade and/ or bullet ogive issues seem more likely culprits.

[dearslayer]

This is NOT OAL issue but crimp issue. A case gage can not tell you anything about OAL, it has no rifling.

I am crimping them. Should I back off on the crimp or not crimp at all. I'm using the Lee 4 die set which includes the Factory Crimp Die.

[dearslayer]

I shot 3 different loads 3.5/3.7/ and 3.9 a couple weeks ago free hand ( mind you this is after working nightshift and I'm not the greatest shot ) and they all shot fine in the shadow. The 3.5gr seemed to work best. 292530292531292532

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[dearslayer]

These were at 25yds.

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[kevin c]

For auto loading pistol cartridges that headspace on the case mouth my understanding is that the goal is to remove mouth flare and no more.

Especially with oversized cast slugs, there’s a risk of swaging down the boolit if the case is not expanded enough. The swaging down risk is also reported using the FCD on the loaded round. I’m not sure, other than from leaving too much flare, that you’d have feeding issues, but poor accuracy and leading problems can come out of swaged down bullets.

[dearslayer]

For auto loading pistol cartridges that headspace on the case mouth my understanding is that the goal is to remove mouth flare and no more.

Especially with oversized cast slugs, there’s a risk of swaging down the boolit if the case is not expanded enough. The swaging down risk is also reported using the FCD on the loaded round. I’m not sure, other than from leaving too much flare, that you’d have feeding issues, but poor accuracy and leading problems can come out of swaged down bullets.
I apologize for my ignorance but I'm not sure I understand what " swaging down" means. Are you referring to sizing the bullet?

[Dusty Bannister]

Yes, you squeeze the case into the cast bullet as you taper crimp and this results in an undersized bullet.

[dearslayer]

This is NOT OAL issue but crimp issue. A case gage can not tell you anything about OAL, it has no rifling.

Just trying to learn here ...so I thought the case guage was used to determine the plunk test including the OAL. All the videos I watched shows it saying the case has to sit just below or flush with the surface of the guage.

[dearslayer]

Yes, you squeeze the case into the cast bullet as you taper crimp and this results in an undersized bullet.

Oh boy I have so much to learn. So wouldn't " undersized " cause it to NOT stick in the guage/barrel?

[Dusty Bannister]

OK think about this for a minute. You are applying a crimp to the case. Not the ogive of the nose. Not the diameter of the nose. Just the body of the bullet.

Look at post #18. You are speaking about a case gauge, not a cartridge or chamber gauge. That is why you use a case gauge to check prepped brass and the chamber of the firearm for correct fit of the loaded round. You will get it, just takes time sometimes. I thought we visited about this earlier, maybe not.

[dearslayer]

OK think about this for a minute. You are applying a crimp to the case. Not the ogive of the nose. Not the diameter of the nose. Just the body of the bullet.

Look at post #18. You are speaking about a case gauge, not a cartridge or chamber gauge. That is why you use a case gauge to check prepped brass and the chamber of the firearm for correct fit of the loaded round. You will get it, just takes time sometimes. I thought we visited about this earlier, maybe not.

We maybe did visit it earlier and I may have missed it. Sorry. Just seems like a lot to understand. I do understand that the barrel should be the deciding factor and not the case guage when determining a finished round and how it will function in a given Firearm. I guess in all the YouTube videos I've watched it shows everyone loading a bunch of rounds once all the dies have been adjusted and then they proceed to drop them all in the guage to see if they pass the plunk test. I think I need to watch someone in real time on the proper technique on what to do and what NOT to do.

[Dusty Bannister]

You will make it. Just remember that these gauges were made for jacketed bullets, and have been used for cast bullets for years. Only recently have things become even more complicated with the build up of powder coating cast bullets. Stick with it.

[ryanmattes]

My process:

First load a dummy, no primer, no charge. Check for plunk test, feeding from the mag, etc. Adjust OAL and make another dummy for testing as necessary. Once that's settles, I have my OAL.

Make a ladder. Start at the min load, figure out good steps in charge (in this case it would be 0.1 or 0.2), and fill out a load sheet for the ladder. I have one for this that's 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8.

Load 10 rounds at each charge, with everything else the same (headstamp, primer, bullet, OAL, etc).

Go test fire those, one set per target, from lightest to hottest charge, checking for proper function/cycle, consistency, and pressure signs. Record EVERYTHING.

I'll use a sharpie or paint pens to mark the sets so I know which one I'm shooting, and I'll put the same mark on each target so I can be sure I'm looking at the right groups. I'll cut those groups out and tape them onto the load sheet.

Sometimes I'll do the same sets with different sized slugs, so I end up doing 2-3 times as many test loads. Sometimes I take velocity, mostly I don't on pistols.

From there I evaluate which was the "best" load, and I give that load it's own sheet in my list of "known good" loads.

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[oley55]

I guess in all the YouTube videos I've watched it shows everyone loading a bunch of rounds once all the dies have been adjusted and then they proceed to drop them all in the guage to see if they pass the plunk test.

They already did many plunk tests and adjustments before they loaded a bunch. The case gauge check is the final Quality Control check, especially for those who compete and can not tolerate an occasional failure to feed/fire.

Not too long ago I worked long and hard doing plunks and adjusting to get my 9mm dies set just right. I did not gauge check every round afterwards as I was certain I had everything set up just right. At the range I had a few that wouldn't chamber without being forced. Turned out everyone of the cases that didn't chamber correctly carried the same head stamp (don't recall which head stamp at the moment). Measured some cases and found the non-chambering cases had thicker case walls than all others. I now sort and toss those thick walled cases AND gauge check every completed round one at a time.

[dearslayer]

Holy crap ...so much goes into this. I think I'll have to start making better notes. So is trimming every pistol case necessary? Also I think part of my problem is I don't sort for head stamp. I just load a bunch of mixed cases.

[AlHunt]

Oh boy I have so much to learn. So wouldn't " undersized " cause it to NOT stick in the guage/barrel?

Put the case gauge in the drawer and forget it. Really. It's just confusing things. I made the same mistake.

The chamber of your gun is attached to the barrel. The barrel has rifiling that the nose of the bullet can touch if it's seated too long. The case gauge does not.

After decades of reloading, I recently added a new caliber. 45ACP and thought it would be easy peasy. It's just an oversized 9mm, right? And I've loaded truckloads of 9mm. Wrong.

I ran into a very similar problem to yours because my shiny new 1911 had no freebore. Meaning that full diameter rifiling starts RIGHT where the chamber ends (add to this I wasn't using quite the right bullet)

In the below pic, the case on the right has a little slot cut into it (and there's one on the other side). I tinkered with that case, expanding the case mouth until the bullet would start. I then inserted it into the chamber of my 1911 until it stopped. The case was fully seated and where I wanted it in relation to the barrel hood. I then went in the muzzle end with a wooden dowel and gently pushed the dummy round out. I now know that with that particular bullet, it touches the lands at 1.222". I set my COAL at 1.210 and no more problems. If you try this, start with a sized case that drops in and out of the chamber freely.

I haven't read through this whole thread but it has a graphic in post #5 that may help:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?376551-9mm-plunk-test

[ryanmattes]

Holy crap ...so much goes into this. I think I'll have to start making better notes. So is trimming every pistol case necessary? Also I think part of my problem is I don't sort for head stamp. I just load a bunch of mixed cases.When I get brass I haven't processed before, I'll put them all through the trimmer to a target length. Some will be shorter, the cutter won't even touch them, but none longer. After that I don't worry about length unless I know I've fired them several times.

I do sort for head stamp. Case wall thickness varies, which can make your charge hotter or lighter due to the change in volume. Less about safety than about consistency. I don't sort LC brass by year or anything, but I try to load all win, or all LC, or all Rem in a single session. Also use the same primer for the same session. If I change anything as significant as the primer, I start a new sheet; it's a new load.

I have 2 notebooks, one big one with everything I've ever loaded in it, and a smaller one with only known good loads and whatever load I'm working up at the time.

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[AlHunt]

So is trimming every pistol case necessary?

No. Auto pistol brass does not grow. It shrinks.

https://www.floridareloading.com/index.php/2017/02/04/how-many-times-can-i-reload-45-acp-brass/

I do not sort 9mm brass. The only bugaboo it causes is that pressure required to seat primers and bullets varies between brands of cases.

[charlie b]

First, OAL does matter, a lot. Especially in 9mm.

It is a 'high pressure' round. If you use loads close to max from the books you need to follow their OAL spec. Too short and pressures can be way over the top.

You can load shorter but you need to reduce the load at least to the minimum to check for pressure. Keep in mind that most pressure signs mean you are way over, not just a little.

Case gauges. Have cast and reloaded for several decades now and never used one. I would only have one if I were loading for other people's guns. For my guns I use the chamber plunk method.

And, yes, write down everything! Including what does not work. I made the mistake of tossing a bunch of notebook data from loads that were not my favorites. When there were powder and/or bullet shortages I had to start over on some of them. Had I kept the data it would have saved me a lot of time and effort.

I've also lost a lot of data due to moves and reduced storage space. These days it is much easier. Just make a log in the computer. I even take pictures of targets and add them to the database. After a shooting session I open up the pictures and add notes from the range, like sequence of shots, bullet velocities, load data, wind, sight settings, etc. And, yes, I also make a backup on a USB stick (I've had a hard drive failure that cost me a lot of data as well :) ).

Good luck in your reloading. Remember to enjoy the journey :)

[mdi]

Just my experience; put the gauge in a drawer and forget about it. You are shooting a handload in your gun not your gauge. Use your barrel as a gauge. I do not "crimp" any semi-auto rounds, I just "deflare" with a taper crimp die. No pushing the case mouth into the bullet, just removing any flare. Depending on the ogive shape and the gun's chamber OAL may need to be shorter than book stats. I have 5, 9mm guns, 4 can use the same OAL I started out with, but one needs a bit deeper seating. One needing a shorter OAL is my new Masada. But as with normal when I make a change that may affect pressures, I did another load work up.. I have 5, 9mm guns that feed 100% now...

[oley55]

Just my experience; put the gauge in a drawer and forget about it. You are shooting a handload in your gun not your gauge. Use your barrel as a gauge. I do not "crimp" any semi-auto rounds, I just "deflare" with a taper crimp die. No pushing the case mouth into the bullet, just removing any flare. Depending on the ogive shape and the gun's chamber OAL may need to be shorter than book stats. I have 5, 9mm guns, 4 can use the same OAL I started out with, but one needs a bit deeper seating. One needing a shorter OAL is my new Masada. But as with normal when I make a change that may affect pressures, I did another load work up.. I have 5, 9mm guns that feed 100% now...

So you chamber check EVERY loaded round or are you using sorted/same head stamp cases for all of your 9MM?

[fredj338]

I am crimping them. Should I back off on the crimp or not crimp at all. I'm using the Lee 4 die set which includes the Factory Crimp Die.

Over crimping can put s small bulge in the case neck. With a taper crimp, just enough to turn the case mouth back to normal from flaring or 0.001"-0.002" more.

[fredj338]

Just trying to learn here ...so I thought the case guage was used to determine the plunk test including the OAL. All the videos I watched shows it saying the case has to sit just below or flush with the surface of the guage.

Nope. The case gage tells you if the loaded round fits the chamber but cant tell you OAL because there is no rifling or throat. The case gage tells you if the flare is removed & if there is any other oddity like a thick piece of brass. Example, when I load 147gr, I have to be picky about my brass. Most foreign stuff is quite thick & I get a small bulge, not much, but enough to prevent full slide lock.
The CZ has always had a rep of zero throat, so your issue is likely OAL a bit too long. So again, make a dummy round & try it. if it doesnt fit, seat 0.010" deeper & try again. It could also be thick mixed brass, but I only have that issue with 147gr.

[fredj338]

Holy crap ...so much goes into this. I think I'll have to start making better notes. So is trimming every pistol case necessary? Also I think part of my problem is I don't sort for head stamp. I just load a bunch of mixed cases.

Nope, I have NEVER trimmed a service pistol case, never. They actually can shrink a bit after repeated loading.

[mdi]

So you chamber check EVERY loaded round or are you using sorted/same head stamp cases for all of your 9MM?

My handloads are very consistent. When I'm working up a load, I work up all aspecs of my handloads, not just powder charge, including primer, OAL, and occasionally brass Before I settle on a good bullet seating depth I plunk several rounds during set up at different times. I know/have a good idea of which gun has the "tightest" chamber so I make sure my depth settings for a particular bullet will work, plunk 100% in that gun. I record the OAL for the particular bullet and subsiquent reloads still fit. Of course I do spot checks, double check everything, along the way, but once I have determined a setting for a particular bullet I rarely need to change (but I have experimented, and mostly without going longer than my original "good OAL")...

I understand many think OAL can differ with different brass/headstamps, but I have not found that to be the case. Often when I'm starting a new load, new components, my work up includes cases w/same headstamp, but usually after I find "The Load", I'll relax my requirements a bit (maybe allow .3-.5 gr variation in powder charge, mixed brass, seating depth to maybe .004" variation and on occasion relax a bit more.)...

I cannot remember when my methods have failed me and I can go to my binder or computer and replicate a load I made 20 years ago. This is for my handgun handloads and my rifle/bolt gun reloads run tighter variations, specs...

[dearslayer]

Over crimping can put s small bulge in the case neck. With a taper crimp, just enough to turn the case mouth back to normal from flaring or 0.001"-0.002" more.

So I understand...would it be best to take a measurement at the empty case mouth just after the sizing die before the the flaring die and then take another measurement after the bullet is seated and adjust the Lee factory crimp die to bring the measurement back to exactly where it was when originally sized at the beginning on the empty case?

[Chaparral66]

I have Lee molds for 9 mm in 124 grain tumble lube and 125 grain for lubrasizer. The 124s always gauge correctly. The 125s usually do not gauge correctly.

No I haven't tried the 125s in the actual chamber... yet. The 124s have a smaller diameter just ahead of the lube groves which I think is the key. For the price of a Lee mold it is worth a try.

[AndyC]

The 124s have a smaller diameter just ahead of the lube groves which I think is the key. For the price of a Lee mold it is worth a try.
Ding-ding-ding.

[mdi]

So I understand...would it be best to take a measurement at the empty case mouth just after the sizing die before the the flaring die and then take another measurement after the bullet is seated and adjust the Lee factory crimp die to bring the measurement back to exactly where it was when originally sized at the beginning on the empty case?
Don't overthink deflaring. Just start with the taper crimp die barely touching a case (I normally adjust the deflaring on an empty, sized case) and lower it in small increments until there is no more flare, but no "crimp". I have no idea how many times I've done this, but I started doing it with my first 45 ACP in '88 and now have 9 semi-auto pistols in 4 calibers and have not measured one in many, many rounds/years...

[toallmy]

So I understand...would it be best to take a measurement at the empty case mouth just after the sizing die before the the flaring die and then take another measurement after the bullet is seated and adjust the Lee factory crimp die to bring the measurement back to exactly where it was when originally sized at the beginning on the empty case?


After you full-length size your case step 1 it will measure a little smaller across the case mouth , next step is expanding the case mouth so you can insert a over size cast boolit this will make the case mouth bigger so it will probably give you trouble plunking the cartridge , so to fix this you then reduced the case flair enough to easily chamber the round ( plunk test ) .
Now is when you can over do the crimp you want the round to chamber resting on the case mouth , or the boollits just touching the rifling without squeezing your cast boolit undersized . Example a cast 9mm boolit sized at .357 + neck wall thickness of lets say . 10 thousands on each side would be =.377 this should be your end goal when adjusting to remove the flair without swaggering your cast boollits .
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it earlier but a expander die not just a flaring die will be very helpful when loading cast boollits .

[dearslayer]

My sizing die is the lee .357 and I used two different colors of powder coating. I believe there's a bit of difference in the thickness of each within the 2 colors. As you can see in the attached photo the blue is a little bit thicker than the black but overall it's pretty close. 292689292690

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[Chaparral66]

I've had similar issues with 9mm 125 grain Lee boolits. I found that the Lee 124 grain tumble lube boolits are smaller in diameter thnt the major diameter of the lube rings. Never have a problem with the 124s passing the gauge test. 125s I always have issues with.

[dearslayer]

I've had similar issues with 9mm 125 grain Lee boolits. I found that the Lee 124 grain tumble lube boolits are smaller in diameter thnt the major diameter of the lube rings. Never have a problem with the 124s passing the gauge test. 125s I always have issues with.

Good to know. Might have to order those molds eventually. Thanks.

[oley55]

Oley: Not too long ago I worked long and hard doing plunks and adjusting to get my 9mm dies set just right. I did not gauge check every round afterwards as I was certain I had everything set up just right. At the range I had a few that wouldn't chamber without being forced. Turned out everyone of the cases that didn't chamber correctly carried the same head stamp (don't recall which head stamp at the moment). Measured some cases and found the non-chambering cases had thicker case walls than all others. I now sort and toss those thick walled cases AND gauge check every completed round one at a time.


mdi: Just my experience; put the gauge in a drawer and forget about it. You are shooting a handload in your gun not your gauge. Use your barrel as a gauge. I do not "crimp" any semi-auto rounds, I just "deflare" with a taper crimp die. No pushing the case mouth into the bullet, just removing any flare. Depending on the ogive shape and the gun's chamber OAL may need to be shorter than book stats. I have 5, 9mm guns, 4 can use the same OAL I started out with, but one needs a bit deeper seating. One needing a shorter OAL is my new Masada. But as with normal when I make a change that may affect pressures, I did another load work up.. I have 5, 9mm guns that feed 100% now...

Oley: So you chamber check EVERY loaded round or are you using sorted/same head stamp cases for all of your 9MM?


My handloads are very consistent. When I'm working up a load, I work up all aspecs of my handloads, not just powder charge, including primer, OAL, and occasionally brass Before I settle on a good bullet seating depth I plunk several rounds during set up at different times. I know/have a good idea of which gun has the "tightest" chamber so I make sure my depth settings for a particular bullet will work, plunk 100% in that gun. I record the OAL for the particular bullet and subsiquent reloads still fit. Of course I do spot checks, double check everything, along the way, but once I have determined a setting for a particular bullet I rarely need to change (but I have experimented, and mostly without going longer than my original "good OAL")...

I understand many think OAL can differ with different brass/headstamps, but I have not found that to be the case. Often when I'm starting a new load, new components, my work up includes cases w/same headstamp, but usually after I find "The Load", I'll relax my requirements a bit (maybe allow .3-.5 gr variation in powder charge, mixed brass, seating depth to maybe .004" variation and on occasion relax a bit more.)...

I cannot remember when my methods have failed me and I can go to my binder or computer and replicate a load I made 20 years ago. This is for my handgun handloads and my rifle/bolt gun reloads run tighter variations, specs...

mdi, I think we are on different pages of the same problem, "a round chambering", is it OAL or finished round diameter issue. My previous post and the one you replied to was not addressing OAL, but rather select thick walled brass loaded with fat cast boolits can create a chambering issue having nothing to do with COAL. That's why I gauge check, even though I have already chamber plunk tested and readjusted and replunked and have my dies perfectly set for weapon and boolit, a thicker than normal case wall may cause chambering issues. That said a case gauge is not the end all fix all, but has their value and it's not sitting on a shelf or in a drawer.

I am assuming we are trying to help the OP understand what things (plural) can cause chambering problems, even though he was originally focused on OAL and what a case gauge does or doesn't do. If I am misunderstanding your posts, pleas accept my apologies in advance.

[dearslayer]

Well I went to the range this morning after work with about 70 rounds loaded to try. All rounds functioned properly in both pistols. I have no experience with the term key holding or tumbling but I'm assuming this is what my bullets are doing given the fact that they are not nice clean round holes punched in paper. Would this indicate that I need more powder for more speed? I'm sure there are other factors at play here that I'm not aware of.

[dearslayer]

These were shot at 15 ft.292790292791

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[whisler]

Did the target have a solid backing?

[justindad]

So I understand...would it be best to take a measurement at the empty case mouth just after the sizing die before the the flaring die and then take another measurement after the bullet is seated and adjust the Lee factory crimp die to bring the measurement back to exactly where it was when originally sized at the beginning on the empty case?

I used to measure the case mouths, but now I crimp so lightly that calipers often are too thick to measure the case mouth without also grabbing the uncrimped / deflated portion of the case. Now this also requires that the round be fed from the magazine into the chamber 3-5 times, then the OACL measurement repeated, then confirm setback did not occur. If setback occurs, crimp more tightly or try a smaller flare.
*
What I do is grab a crimped cartridge with my calipers and then spin the round by pushing the case head with my finger. The pivot point of the cartridge is the largest diameter, so lower your crimp die by 1/8th turn until the case mouth is no longer the pivot point. You can also look between the case and the jaws of the caliper, and consider where light passes through. Admittedly, this is easier on straight walled cases than it is for the tapered 9mm case.
*
Here’s an example of looking between the jaws and case. The points where light does not pass through is where the round will pivot.
292794

[dearslayer]

Did the target have a solid backing?No it did not. Just the paper hanging.

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[whisler]

That's probably why it tore like it did. Try with a solidly backed and mounted target and check results.

[dearslayer]

I used to measure the case mouths, but now I crimp so lightly that calipers often are too thick to measure the case mouth without also grabbing the uncrimped / deflated portion of the case. Now this also requires that the round be fed from the magazine into the chamber 3-5 times, then the OACL measurement repeated, then confirm setback did not occur. If setback occurs, crimp more tightly or try a smaller flare.
*
What I do is grab a crimped cartridge with my calipers and then spin the round by pushing the case head with my finger. The pivot point of the cartridge is the largest diameter, so lower your crimp die by 1/8th turn until the case mouth is no longer the pivot point. You can also look between the case and the jaws of the caliper, and consider where light passes through. Admittedly, this is easier on straight walled cases than it is for the tapered 9mm case.
*
Here’s an example of looking between the jaws and case. The points where light does not pass through is where the round will pivot.
292794

Interesting I'll have to try this, even though I've backed off on the crimp already perhaps I'm still crimping too much. I was listening to a podcast tonight on the way to work and one of the host said they never crimp cast lead boolits and only crimps jacketed or plated boolits only. Is this the norm?

[dearslayer]

That's probably why it tore like it did. Try with a solidly backed and mounted target and check results.

I'll try with backing next time out. Thanks.

[Forrest r]

These were shot at 15 ft.292790292791

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Nice!!! Nothing wrong with those targets & range trip. I like the looks of your reloads, bullet selection (and diameter) & powder selection. 3.5gr is a lot of "bang" for the buck.

Back when we took targets and scoring seriously, we'd take the cardboard backers and use wallpaper paste to glue the targets on them. Simply go to the range and hang the cardboard/glued target up & your good to go. Man those wc and swc bullets would cut clean round holes in the targets!!!

IMHO:
There's simply too much confusion with reloading 9mm rounds. It's not the reloaders it's the huge differences in die mfg's and the bbl's in the firearms being produced. You really should do a little playing around at the reloading bench to break down what's going on with your brand of dies and how the different adjustments can affect what you see with the case gage and bbl.

Myself, I'd start playing with the crimp and sized empty cases. Here's a picture of 2 9mm cases that were sized with a lee carbide sizing die. Then a .365" crimp was put on the left case and a .374" crimp was put on the right case. Both cases were measured with a mic. Both cases started out .750" & the case with the .365" crimp ended up 2/1000th's" shorter from the massive crimp.
https://i.imgur.com/OYBy8L4.jpg

I set my oal''s in all my semi-auto pistols to the "normal" on the plunk test. Actually, I try to target 10/1000th's" depth/amount of space between the top of the bbl hood and the base of the cases. Doing this takes the difference in my oal's out of play (measure 20 reloads and see how much difference you have in the oals) along with the difference in the thickness of the pc coating on the noses of the bullets. The .374" crimped case
https://i.imgur.com/dTH8eDr.jpg

Kinda blurry but the .365" crimped case
https://i.imgur.com/88N6kjS.jpg

Those are a 6/1000th's" crimped case and a 15/1000th's" crimped case in a nm 1911 9mm bbl. So much for the old 9mm cases head space on the case mouth thing. Do some testing for yourself with empty sized cases and your crimp die. Use both the case gage and bbl's.

The real issue with the lee die sets is their expander buttons they use in their expander dies. A factory expander button next to a custom home made expander.
https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg

Post #48 is an excellent example of wasp waste/case not expanded deep enough. The end result is a bulge that shows the bullets body in the case. That bulge is ok for revolver/strait walled cases but doesn't do much for a tapered case like the 9mm.

A couple bullets that I cast & pc for the 9mm's. The green bullet is the mihec 125gr rfn bullet. The red bullet is an old design (1900) that lyman 35870 bullet that is also a rfn that is also hollow based.
https://i.imgur.com/V87WlTN.jpg

Both bullets are sized to .358" with the 35870 bullet being 1/10" longer. Both bullets are seated to the same 1.130" OAL. Both reloads have a 3/1000th's taper crimp. Lee makes an excellent taper crimp die & that is what I used to make those 3/1000th's" crimps (actually the .365" and .374" crimps also). Those 3/1000th's " crimps affect +/- 20/1000th's" down on the case mouth.

You will find that reloads for the semi-auto's that have a +/- 3/1000th's taper crimp will feed more consistently in a wider range of firearms. Have a more consistent neck tension with less setback issues and a more consistent short start pressure that aids in accuracy.

I've showed these targets before, they're not hand/cherry picked by any means. Nothing more then the test targets used that day to test loads with. A 10-shot group @ 50ft with that nm 1911 using the green reload pictured above sitting at a bench with the 1911 rested on a rolled up towel/cardboard box.
https://i.imgur.com/N6XBlbc.jpg

That red reload tested @ 50yds (10-shot group) using the same nm 1911. This time I use a pistol rest and a bag under my hands for support. The black circle on the target is 1 1/2".
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

Don't know if the fliers on that 50yd target was from the looonnnnngggg bodied 35870 bullets being seated to deep in the mixed range brass and getting deformed. Or the 8# spring I was using wasn't letting the bbl go back into battery the same every time.

Anyway, spend a little time at the bench playing around with both bbl's and the case gage. It will be a real eye opener. If you click on any of the pictures I posted you can save them & then open them and make them larger. On the picture of the red/green reloads if you blow it up you can clearly see the shiny +/- 20/1000th's" ring the 3/1000th's" taper crimp put on the case mouth. That shiny ring is telling you how much of the case is actually affected when using the lee taper crimp die.