50 cal muzzle loader dirty bore

[DCB]

I have this CVA 50 cal inline Shoots good. I have killed a deer every year that I have had it,
I clean it with CVA Gel, concentrated cleaning gel.
It looks good then after a few months it looks like it had never been cleaned. (Rusty black looking crud)
So I have tried the true and tested with soapy hot water. 3 or 4 different bore cleaners hopes#9 was the last one and it is nasty bore! this has been the issue for 3 years now.
Now, I have been shooting Hodgons Triple7 pellets 240gr Sabot from the beging in this muzzle loader. Any thoughts and comments welcome.
Has anyone had this issue?
Thanks Dave

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm not sure what you are asking?
I have heard Triple 7 is less corrosive than regular Pyrodex.
I have shot with the Holy Black, as well as Pyrodex, in my TC, clean with soapy hot water, dry, then lube barrel inside and out with bear grease. After a year of storage (Minnesota is likely as humid as OH), no rust and no black crud.

[DCB]

Thanks Jon, Well the issue seams to be that no matter how much I clean and "it looks good at the time of the cleaning" a few months later I check it and it looks as if I never cleaned it. <Iam puzzled>
Thanks

[waksupi]

With the fake powder, you may as well figure on cleaning them once or twice every week. Your area is damp, and I don't know just how you could go about finally killing the chemical in those powders. Baking soda rinse, maybe? If you can get real black powder, I would bet the problem would go away.

[NSB]

Just use Blackhorn 209. It’s basically smokeless powder and it works like a smokeless powder…..no crud and no rust. It’s also a very good powder as far as accuracy and reliability go. I quit using everything else including real black and never looked back.

[GregLaROCHE]

I like to use compressed air to quickly blow dry my muzzle loaders, if I have it available. I just use warm water, not hot with dish soap. Hot water is said to flash rust barrels. I don’t think it works any better, so I play it safe. I use a patch with a liberal amount of original Ballistol (not the spray it’s too thin) to coat the bore. If you know you won’t be shooting it in the near future, any sort of a thin grease coating would be good insurance. Be sure to use something to remove it before loading the gun the next time.

[lawdog941]

Have the same style CVA. When I'm done, I've used olive oil/beeswax/lanolin mix to coat the bore. It usually keeps it cleaned, but lately, just been using regular LPX gun oil to coat the barrel. It's thick enough to stay in place, just remember to clean out before shooting.

[mnewcomb59]

I have an old CVA Wolf with a rough bore that would get invisible plastic fouling, then aggressively rust below the fouling. Eventually it made a ring of pitting where the base of the sabot sits on top of the powder charge.

I fire lapped it and got much easier cleaning. My fire lapping load was with soft full bore bullets. I wanted to fire lap it with a really reduced load to lap behind the crud ring pitting. I used 30 grains of powder with two maxiballs and a sabot with the petals cut off. My thinking was the soft lead wouldn't firelap very well compared to wheel weights and probably wouldn't obturate with the low charge, so I sent 740 grains down range instead of 370, 6 driving bands instead of 3. I bet the bottom one at least squished out some because it worked really well. I think I only shot 5 or 6.

That gun now cleans up with a spit patch between shots with no plastic fouling. Before I put it away I pour hot water in the barrel, brush it a few times with a soapy brush, then pour more hot water and it is clean as a whistle. The only rust since then has been on the outside from hard days of deer driving and not wiping it down that night.

[parson48]

I've shot Pyrodex for years, mainly because I bought a bunch being closed out a long time ago. I clean my caplocks and inlines in hot, soapy water, dry good, run a patch with bore butter down the barrel- and have never had any problems. Check 'em months later with a clean patch and it comes out white.

I do lay the barrels on a heat register for a while after cleaning. Is it possible that you're not getting all of the moisture out?

[Edward]

Just use Blackhorn 209. It’s basically smokeless powder and it works like a smokeless powder…..no crud and no rust. It’s also a very good powder as far as accuracy and reliability go. I quit using everything else including real black and never looked back.

Ya might try ground up unicorn horn (that an BH 209 ) are about the same (SCARCE) to non existent !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[indian joe]

I have this CVA 50 cal inline Shoots good. I have killed a deer every year that I have had it,
I clean it with CVA Gel, concentrated cleaning gel.
It looks good then after a few months it looks like it had never been cleaned. (Rusty black looking crud)
So I have tried the true and tested with soapy hot water. 3 or 4 different bore cleaners hopes#9 was the last one and it is nasty bore! this has been the issue for 3 years now.
Now, I have been shooting Hodgons Triple7 pellets 240gr Sabot from the beging in this muzzle loader. Any thoughts and comments welcome.
Has anyone had this issue?
Thanks Dave

"after a few months" might be the greater part of the problem . !!!
I live in a gun friendly environment (Think Arizona climate) I go through the rack every couple months at worst, oily rag down the bore, quick wipe over, left season to season I would expect to find a problem someplace.

[DCB]

Thanks for all the comments,
I did coat the bore but with only gun oil.
I do keep check on all my gun during the year and have not had any problems with the black powder. I keep track of this CVA and checked it every couple months and it was good up to this time.
I cleaned the bore yesterday and used some military bore green can cleaner
I will use some grease when MZLoader season is over and it gets put in the gun rack.
Thanks

[tmanbuckhunter]

Soapy water or a moosemilk like ballistol/water is all you need. Fancy black powder cleaners, gels etc... are snake oil. There is also a chance you are mixing your T7 fouling with petroleum products, which might be why it's not necessarily going anywhere.

[lawdog941]

Well, if your putting it away clean, is it possible someone else is taking it out and shooting it, returning it without cleaning? They get extra dirty from shooting, but if you clean them, then they're getting dirty somehow.

[charlie b]

So, crud a while after cleaning.

Is it rusty (redish/brown) or is it black? Black I associate with powder fouling.

When I used Break Free CLP it was always a two step cleaning process. Clean gun on one day. After a week or so clean it again and would get out more powder fouling. Also worked like that when cleaning tank main guns :)

[BunkTheory]

i have kept inlines loaded with pyrodex rust free for 2 years while loaded the whole time.

The trick with pyrodex is to forget old wives tails you hear on these sites about cleaning a muzzle loader.

the trick is really really really simple. DOnt listen to the old wives tails.

The best way is to pull the breech plug, run a dry patch through, repeat, repeat. Then run a patch lubricated with hoppes #9 on it. then a dry patch, then a bore brush with a hoppes #9 lubricated patch on it.

Use traditions thread lube and your good to go. I have done that for 20 years now and the bore has stayed mirror bright the whole time.

[Duckdog]

What Bunk Theory said. He does what I do for the most part. What I guess is happening, is you are not getting it totally clean. Maybe micro pitting, real sharp rifling, etc. Once you put oil or bore butter on it, it softens it up and it creeps a bit. When you run a patch through it at a later date, you pick up more foulng that was "spread out" by the oil or other lube you're using.

[BunkTheory]

no one remember the crud ring from the first generation of triple seven?

chemical reaction with some lubes can leave it a horrid crust. And you need to remember that some lubes will have a bad chemical reaction with other un specified cleaners.

If you want an interesting reaction combine a half teaspon of hoppes #9 cleaner with a half tea spoon of rem oil.

[243winxb]

Break Free CLP is what i use after Dawn/water wash. May help to know the chemicals in Triple7?

[Tar Heel]

All of the BP purists (including me) are shaking our heads. When shooting the high-tech inline guns with "modern" propellants and then cleaning them with "modern" cleaners, you have no idea what kind of chemistry is cooking in your bore. I only shoot BP or Pyrodex. I clean with soap and water or if at a rendezvous or other encampment, I wipe clean with Moose Milk and clean with hot soapy water when I get back home. I NEVER and I mean NEVER use any commercial solution in my BP guns including bullet lube.

Having stood on my podium and lectured appropriately, I suggest you follow whatever cleaning method is put forth by the makers of T7 or the other chemical propellants you are using. Specific chemical reactions with powder residue and cleaning compounds are desired and some are to be avoided at all costs.

After cleaning whatever gun I have fired that day, be it a BP gun or a smokeless cartridge gun, I make a habit of inspecting the gun a few days later to ensure I have not missed anything. With my BP guns, this is always done to reapply a light coating of Balistol oil to the gun. Periodically, I get a little more rust/residue/gunk/whatever out of the bore. Sounds like you are inspecting a few days later too. That's a good habit to have!

I will look forward to reading this post after all the snake oil purveyors have their say to see what version is decided best for you. :-)

Hodgdon says:

Cleaning a muzzleloader after using Triple Seven and White Hots products is a breeze. Muzzleloading propellants are typically hygroscopic, so moisture collects quickly in the remaining residue after firing. Before putting the firearm in storage, to prevent rusting, the gun should be properly cleaned. Because Triple Seven and White Hots can be cleaned with water, no bore solvents are necessary, making cleaning simple, quick and easy.

The first step is removing the breech plug from the barrel. Following removal, simply take cleaning patches lightly soaked in water and swab the barrel. When a damp patch finishes clean, scrub with one or two dry patches to remove any moisture, and run a final lubed patch through the bore to prevent rust.

Next, take the breech plug and use a light solvent with a small scrub brush and remove the grease and residue. Clean the flash hole with a pipe cleaner, re-lube the threads, return the breech plug to the barrel, and the process is complete. Wipe down the exterior of the firearm with a lightly lubed gun cloth, and the gun is ready for storage.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/cleaning-muzzleloader

[Larry Gibson]

I've been using Triple 7 in my TC Black Mountain Magnum 50 cal for 20 years +/-. I clean initially with Windex w/vinegar then hot water. My rifle is a traditional with cap lock so I can't remove the breach plug readily. A drilled out nipple with a plastic hose into a can of hot water then a tight patch on the rod suctions the war into the bore. Any ways when clean I make sure its as dry as I can then wipe Kroil in the bore and on the outside. Not a spec of rust, corrosion or any other gunk and doesn't have to be cleaned again until used again.

[DCB]

thanks, At least I will not run out of cleaning methods. I was using the Gel because it came recommended.
This is the third or fourth time that it has come out looking like an avalanche down the bore with a fair amount of rust.
I used soap and water with a hot water rinse for years on my TC and that has always worked for me.
Larry Windex and Vinegar is new to me.
I think you may be on to something mixing chemicals.
The military bore cleaner in the green can has never failed to clean some of the worse bores. I used it yesterday and finished with soap and water hot water rinse.
I put a light coat of gun oil down the bore, Ill leave it set a few days and run a few patches and see what comes out.
Thanks

[LAGS]

Vinegar works great to remove rust.
But will also take off your bluing.
But mixing it with Windex which has Ammonia will probably kill some of the acidity in the vinegar.

[charlie b]

From what I have read on the product specs there are two versions of Windex glass cleaner. One has vinegar and one has ammonia (the original version). You don't get ammonia and vinegar in the same bottle.

[ourway77]

If the bore is very dirty cake on crud use the finest steel wool money can buy wet the barrel with very hot water then with a heavy dose of soap run through barrel numerous times with rod still in the barrel put more hot water and swab numerous times remove rod put a cloth patch and fresh hot water then do a dry patch if clean it's done oil heavy for storage this will also work on a corroded barrels I had a badly corroded barrel a friend asked me to sight in for him i looked down the barrel and it was very badly corroded i used this system cleaned the best I could and believe me it still shot good

[Edward]

Hot water gets you flash rust !Always has ,room temp water is all that's needed ! PROVEN FACT/Ed

[beemer]

A good many years ago I was given a 54 cal. barrel off a CVA Mountain Rifle. It was almost new and the bore looked good. After building a rifle around it I found it shot very well. I found this barrel almost impossible to clean and prevent rust. I was not new to BP and had never had any problems with my other rifles. This thing would rust despite careful cleaning, oiling and weekly inspections. I even lapped it thinking there might be ruff spots but nothing helped, if anything it got worse. I finally removed the breach plug and could see several black spots and streaks that the rust had formed around. I thought that the steel had some kind of slag or even cracks that held fouling. I should have cut it open for inspection but just used it for a pry bar.

My local BP shop found a new 50 cal. CVA barrel in a parts buy, I bought it and fit it to my rifle. The new barrel has been great and I've taken more deer with it than any other rifle.

Dave

[Sixgun Symphony]

Try using lard or Crisco to grease the bore.

[lesharris]

Triple 7 c leans with water. Using gel cleaners will not remove or neutralize Triple 7. Clean with warm water until clean dry and oil bore for storage. That should solve your situation.

[rickt300]

Best cleanig fluid I have found is the Orange windshield washer fluid. Then I lube with transmission fluid because it is easy to remove.

[Bill*B]

I found this link (https://camp22.org/black-powder-pages/barrel-fouling-black-powder-vs-substitutes) interesting.

[indian joe]

Blackpowder residue is ridiculously east to remove from a rifle barrel - tepid / room temperature water does it best - all the snake oil concoctions under the sun (commercial BP cleaners, windex, vinegar, windscreen washer fluid etc etc ) all they do is lessen the effect of the water they are mixed with and cost money - some of the subs might be different but if 777 says cleans with water - get the message! use water !

Such an easy job made to sound so hard .................................................. .........................................

[fastdadio]

Best cleanig fluid I have found is the Orange windshield washer fluid. Then I lube with transmission fluid because it is easy to remove.

I use windshield solvent also, works great. I also add about 10% denatured alcohol to the spray bottle to help it evaporate faster.

[charlie b]

I agree that water is best for cleaning.

I do use windex at the range for wiping between shots/strings. Why? It evaporates faster than plain water, especially on a cooler day. I've also used alcohol (90% stuff) for the same reason.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[DCB]

Thanks I got the message about the water. I cleaned the barrel until my white patches came out clean. Lightly oild and set it in the gun rack. Ill check it in a couple weeks and see how its standing up.
Thanks

[indian joe]

Thanks I got the message about the water. I cleaned the barrel until my white patches came out clean. Lightly oild and set it in the gun rack. Ill check it in a couple weeks and see how its standing up.
Thanks

Didnt mean to come across snarky there
Plenty water and you have flushed/neutralised the chemical salts left in BP residue - then all is left is some black soot (harmless and non corrosive) from burnt charcoal - that gun might look dirty still but its clean - dry and oil the bore it wont rust ....

Use a bore cleaner solution - alcohol or detergent based without adequate water - you get the bore clean - patches come out white - but there still some salts left in there - that gun looks squeaky clean but its dirty still - moisture from the atmosphere damps the leftover salts and the gun rusts even if its been oiled, because oil dont neutralise or flush out the remaining corrosive salts

neutralise is not the correct term - whats happening is dilution to the point the solution is no longer active as a rust agent - so plenty water with black powder and life gets easy.

I use WD40 before I oil the bore - if shooting again soon then WD40 is all - one dry patch down bore and blow out the nipple or touch hole with air compressor before I go to the range.

[DCB]

Thanks Joe The gell cleaner did not work. Now looking back on it, it is not for cleaning t 777.
I have some pictures of the bore ill see if I can get a couple uploaded.
I thought it was pretty well shot, but I killed a deer during the muzzleloader season with it.