Keith .44 245 grain

[kiwi]

Who makes a mold closest to Elmer Keiths 245 grain SWC .44?
I have a Lyman 4 cavity 429421 it is ok but I know it is not the same as Elmer's original design
I would like to get one as close to the original as possible.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd head over to the Precision Molds site and look there. I got what your looking for in a .45 there, bet he has one for the .44

[white eagle]

look at Miha's (MP) molds he has some
as do NOE and Accurate and @ Accurate you can design one to fill your needs

[rintinglen]

You have plenty of choices. You need only pay your money and take your pick.

Arsenal (432-264 SWC) makes one that hits all the right notes as does MP molds (432-256), and Accurate (43-250K) also has it covered. I know that NOE also made some that were true copies of the H&G 503 that represents the "true" Keith design. If I recall correctly, Al got his hands on original design notes and made some with Elmer's signature replicated on them. It's the 432-264-SWC-AT5 in his catalog.

RCBS made a copy at one time as well, the 44-250-KT, but later versions have the rounded lube groove that Keith found objectionable.

I though, think Elmer got that part wrong. The square cut lube groove design is not measurably more accurate and it is more troublesome to convince the boolits to drop from the mold. I use my 429-421 Lyman 4 cavity for most of my needs these days. and it has the round lube groove.

[MT Gianni]

I have a square groove 421 that is more accurate than the round groove it replaced. I believe it is more the shape that the cherry was in than the style.

[gwpercle]

NOE has some "real" Keith designs ... A while back I lucked up and got a 41 magnum Keith and a 38/357 "Keith Signature Series" mould ... a work of art with Elmer's signature engraved on the blocks ... I haven't used it yet ... it's just so good looking I hate to muck it up !
Gary

[longbow]

Dale53 maintains that the H&G #503 is the real Keith design. I modeled it for him from a sample of the no longer available H&G #503 bullet and Mihec made the moulds:

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-432-256-pb-solid-6-cav-alu/

It is 256 grs. solid though so a little heavier.

NOE's version runs 255 grs. so about the same weight:

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/432/432-255-swc-ay3/432-258-swc-2-cavity-pb-432421/

I am sure there are many that say they are the "real" Keith bullet. My understanding is that the original Keith bullet design had 3 equal width driving bands and the square lube groove. The H&G #503 has those.

Longbow

[david s]

Noe offers a clone of the H&G 503 moulds and a version of the Lyman 429421 with the square groove. They also made a run of the mid to late 1970's Keith approved design SWC as gwpercle mentioned. I purchased the 38-41-44 and 45 versions of these. I believe Keith liked the square grease groove because it's considered to be stronger where the bullet is narrowest as opposed to the rounded groove.

[JAC43]

I would like to get one as close to the original as possible.

Well, that depends on what you know the original to be. Take a look at the 429421 Keith illustrates in Sixguns and compare that to the earliest of the Ideal molds. It's significantly different. Which is the original, if either?

https://castbulletassoc.org/download/Ideal%20moulds%20-%201929.pdf

And to further complicate matters, the man himself stated in writing that the H&G #503 was true to his design. Which one though, the thin front band version or the thicker one that subsequently came along?

What about the Prochko "True Keiths" that Keith signed off on? https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?1954-quot-Real-quot-Keith-Bullets

Not to mention the LBT "Authentic" Keith series that Veral says is copied directly from bullets Keith gave to a friend of his?

Will the original Keith 44 SWC please stand up? :-P

[derek45]

ARSENAL #503 is perfection.

https://i.imgur.com/BoOhoIe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/z1oEwmp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EPydk5A.jpg

[hporter]

This is the NOE 44 caliber Keith bullet that was recently produced.

292447

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/432/432-277-swc-bc4/432-277-swc-2-cavity-pb-keith/

It is heavier than the OP's 245 grain bullet though. With my alloy, it weighed 281 grains.

292445

292446

I also have the the MP #503 and the lighter NOE 429421. All shoot very well. That Arsenal mold posted above looks to be a nice design too.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Honestly now, do we really know what the "Keith" design is?
Did Elmer ever change the design?

I have a NOE mold that says "41 Keith".
Since it's 41 and not 44, is it still really a Keith?
It is a SWC with 3 equal bands...at least to my eyes they are equal ;)

[Mal Paso]

Dale53 maintains that the H&G #503 is the real Keith design. I modeled it for him from a sample of the no longer available H&G #503 bullet and Mihec made the moulds:

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-432-256-pb-solid-6-cav-alu/


Thank You! I was in on the first group buy and it's my favorite.


is it still really a Keith?
It is a SWC with 3 equal bands...at least to my eyes they are equal ;)

The 3 equal drive bands is only on the H&G #503 that appeared near the time of Elmer's death. Neither the early #503 that Elmer brought to H&G nor any original 429421s had equal drive bands.

Don't know about the 41 molds but in 44 the three equal bands may not have been Elmer's doing. The first catalogue drawing I have of it was printed after his death.

[Green Frog]

Didn't EK use the front groove as a crimping groove, leaving the front band outside of the case to better fill the grooves as it entered the barrel? The late H&G and its copy from Arsenal as well as the NOE version would work that way. Just sayin'.

Froggie

[Mal Paso]

Didn't EK use the front groove as a crimping groove, leaving the front band outside of the case to better fill the grooves as it entered the barrel? The late H&G and its copy from Arsenal as well as the NOE version would work that way. Just sayin'.

Froggie

Yep and the forward drive band of the late #503 sits just inside the throats of my Colt when chambered. I'm not so lucky with my other 44s as they moved the throats forward to prevent chambering issues. Elmer insisted on sizing .429" likely to preserve that relationship but gun manufacturers moved the throats forward anyway. Fit is King for the gun manufacturers too, if the ammo won't fit, make the hole bigger/longer. It hurts accuracy but that's secondary to making sure everyone's ammo fits the hole.

[W.R.Buchanan]

All of these boolits should shoot well. My first Keith Mould was Lyman 429421 and it had the radius' Grease Groove. My MP Mold version has a tapered/square grease groove.

The NOE Boolit shown above at 280 gr has an odd shaped nose section and that is where the extra weight is.

I don't think any of this matters in the slightest. Minor deviations from the original design aren't going to affect the accuracy in any way, and 99.9% of shooters couldn't tell the difference in the first place and the .1% guys would have to explain exactly how they knew the difference and they all would have to agree on exactly what it was. Doubt this will ever happen.

There is too many other variables to define what affected the accuracy on the day you shot it. My biggest variable would be "how I held my mouth when I pulled the trigger."

I think this would be true for just about everyone, except those that don't know how to hold their mouth in the first place.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

The different designs, especially those that throw bullets heavier than 250 gr, do matter if one intends on using the "classic Keith load of 22 gr of 2400 in the 44 Magnum. With 240 - 250 gr bullets that is still an excellent top end load with it under my 429421 (round lube grooves) giving a measured 36,000 psi +/- which is the SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum. Accuracy is excellent out of all my 44 magnums. However, I have received some of the heavier variants of "Keith" bullets weighing as much as 280 gr. With those you'd best drop the charge of 2400 back down to 19.5 - 21 gr depending on the bullet weight. You should also expect less velocity that with the 240 - 255 gr bullets.

As I recall EK used 240 - 250, maybe 255 gr bullets of his design in his 44 Magnum loads with 2400. Both my RCBS 44-250-KT and my Lyman 429421 cast bullets at 250 - 255 gr depending on alloy. Any such bullet weighing more is simple a heavier SWC, to me anyway.

[FISH4BUGS]

H&G #503. End of discussion.

[44MAG#1]

H&G #503. End of discussion.

Which one???

[Mal Paso]

Which one???

The late one with the longer front drive band of course. Best if the front band of the chambered bullet is just inside the throat.

H&G had a pigeon hole box on the wall that held all the sample bullets. The catalogue was hand drawn sketches. No CAD drawings or revision numbers. The BC1103 I have, made much later, has a shorter front drive band, there was a lot of drift.

[alamogunr]

All of these boolits should shoot well. My first Keith Mould was Lyman 429421 and it had the radius' Grease Groove. My MP Mold version has a tapered/square grease groove.

The NOE Boolit shown above at 280 gr has an odd shaped nose section and that is where the extra weight is.

I don't think any of this matters in the slightest. Minor deviations from the original design aren't going to affect the accuracy in any way, and 99.9% of shooters couldn't tell the difference in the first place and the .1% guys would have to explain exactly how they knew the difference and they all would have to agree on exactly what it was. Doubt this will ever happen.

There is too many other variables to define what affected the accuracy on the day you shot it. My biggest variable would be "how I held my mouth when I pulled the trigger."

I think this would be true for just about everyone, except those that don't know how to hold their mouth in the first place.

Randy

If I could just figure this out I might be able to keep them all on the paper plate.

[44MAG#1]

The late one with the longer front drive band of course. Best if the front band of the chambered bullet is just inside the throat.

H&G had a pigeon hole box on the wall that held all the sample bullets. The catalogue was hand drawn sketches. No CAD drawings or revision numbers. The BC1103 I have, made much later, has a shorter front drive band, there was a lot of drift.

I have both the narrow front band and the wider front band that I ordered from Wayne Gibbs when H&G was still in good business.

[SSGOldfart]

Humm I agree the H&G 503 is the answer.:popcorn:

[Forrest r]

This topic keeps coming up on this website & like everything opinions vary. It's all good info and it's impressive that this bullet/design still has such an excellent following.

My 2 cents:
I think the design morphed over the years. Don't know if Keith worked with what lyman made/did or if he started out with the lyman design. I do know that larry is correct with his 22gr. load/+/- 250gr bullet weight.
https://i.imgur.com/Xt7pS7F.jpg

I'm not that versed in lyman molds and when their production changes were made. I've owned 15/20 of the lyman 429421 & 429422 molds over the decades. Years ago I had a clamshell 429421 mold (clamshell molds fazed out in 1923???) and it had drive bands that looked like these molds. Both are ideal and 1 has vent lines (vent lines added (1950???)
https://i.imgur.com/nO75KXW.jpg

This bullet was cast from the older non vented mold.
https://i.imgur.com/FTFbMo6.jpg

I've sold all the h&g and lyman molds off and kept the 2 hb 429422 molds. I also have a 1st run MP 503 clone that is a fantastic bullet and the reason I sold everything else off. The MP 503 mold casts a +/- 245gr bullet depending on the hp pin with 8/9bhn range scrap. This allows me to keep with the original 22gr/2400 Keith load. And actually I like to use 6.0gr of bullseye with that bullet, shoots bugholes in paper @ 25yds.
https://i.imgur.com/MGkzk5b.jpg

I'm really not sure when this picture came out but it shows Keith style bullets with equal drive bands. And more importantly a "short" nosed version of the Keith 358429 bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/VC31G9M.jpg

I'm just glad that there are so many variations of this wonderful bullet out there. More opportunities to find a design that matches the induvial firearms cylinders/throat/bbl's/lube.

[44MAG#1]

Here is the one I use and like a lot.

ATTACH=CONFIG]293603[/ATTACH]

[alamogunr]

Going thru my molds over the past week, I ran across a single cavity Ideal mold in a Lyman-Ideal labeled box. Not sure how old it is but the box has a notation, "NEW". Unlike the molds in the previous post by Forrest r, the mold is stamped 429 421, has the number 36 in one corner, and has rounded lube groove.

I've never used it but plan to cast a few in the near future when I heat up the pot to cast some more of the RCBS version.

All the recent interest in "Keith" molds has me wanting to get a modern version, multiple(2-4) cavity mold. I've found 3 examples from current mold makers and have yet to decide which to order. Although I don't get weak kneed when the name Elmer Keith is mentioned, I do appreciate his many contributions to cast bullet development.

[Petander]

Dale53 maintains that the H&G #503 is the real Keith design. I modeled it for him from a sample of the no longer available H&G #503 bullet and Mihec made the moulds:

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-432-256-pb-solid-6-cav-alu/

It is 256 grs. solid though so a little heavier.

NOE's version runs 255 grs. so about the same weight:

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/432/432-255-swc-ay3/432-258-swc-2-cavity-pb-432421/

I am sure there are many that say they are the "real" Keith bullet. My understanding is that the original Keith bullet design had 3 equal width driving bands and the square lube groove. The H&G #503 has those.

Longbow

Interesting history for that Mihec #503 mold! I have it too, never heard about your part. Good job!

[44MAG#1]

How will the Keith bullet be found?

[longbow]

Petander:

Dale53 ( Dale McGee) was the brains of the operation and the honcho. I was a mere minion doing my master's bidding!

Dale is a Keith bullet guy and he has an old H&G #503 mould he maintains is the closest to the original Keith boolit so wanted to make a reproduction with Miha.

Since Homeland Security is pretty sticky about exporting reloading components without an FFL, Dale cast boolits then took pics and sent me the pics. I imported the pics into AutoCAD then "traced" around the outer pixel edges to get an outline of 1/2 a boolit, imported that into a 3D program then made a revolved solid. Now we had something to work with.

From there Dale measured diameters and lengths so I could alter the model to match.

In the end the weight was more than Dale thought it should be but he wanted specific dimensions and that's how it came out... 256 grs. in wheelweights IIRC.

I have read that Keith didn't work with drawings but had a machinist make steel master bullets. I don't know if that is true.

I've also read that Lyman made some changes because Keith's design didn't fit some cylinders well... could that be the reason for the 429421 having a shorter front driving band? Who knows?

Here is a lengthy read about the "real" Keith boolit design:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?1954-quot-Real-quot-Keith-Bullets

Here is some more reading:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?425347-What-s-so-special-about-a-quot-Keith-quot-boolit

The LASC site also has a lengthy article on Keith boolits if anyone is interested.

There are certainly lots of opinions on just what the original design was but it seems like many of the variations shoot just fine regardless.

If Elmer was so picky about his design and exact details I have to wonder why there doesn't seem to be any original drawings or master boolits in existence. Would you design something then give the originals to someone without keeping copies? I sure wouldn't! And in multiple calibers?

Makes me think that maybe he described what he wanted to Lyman and H&G and anyone else he went to with his design and that description varied or was subject to interpretation.

But what do I know!?!

And there I go rambling on again!

But that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Longbow

[Petander]

This picture is from 1961 "Sixguns" :

https://i.postimg.cc/PJJhRKpr/IMG-20211227-WA0000.jpg

[44MAG#1]

One thing I have realized is that the subject of the "Keith Bullet" will never be solved.
Reason is, it give many a subject to talk about. That is a good thing. People get bored and the "Keith Bullet" is as good a subject as any.
I talked with Mr. Keith several times over the years from the early 70's to just a few days before the stroke that caused the end of his life. Cast bullets and sent them too hIm also.
I can say this, whether you believe me is another thing and really doesn't matter to me, but, he specifically told me the "Keith" bullet pictured on the page in his Sixguns book where there are several pictured was cast in an ORIGINAL Lyman mold. The issue is if you believe me and if not fine or that you believe he told me that and you don't believe him.
Doesn't really matter I guess.
Either way this investigation will never be actually solved.

[Lloyd Smale]

kieth changed the design himself and some small variations were created when he had different people cut molds so i wouldnt worry much about it. I was always told the two closest are the 429421 with the square lube grove and the rcbs 250kt. That said theres at least 3 differnent 429421s and i have two rcbs 250kts that are slightly different and a third one the 245kt. Probably the only true keith mold was the one in his drawer

[longbow]

SlippeyRider:

Absolutely!

My first mould for my 1894 Marlin was a Lyman 429421 because "It is the best bullet for a .44 magnum!"... not so for many Marlins!

The 429421 and some other SWC's have a long nose from crimp groove to meplat resulting in too long COAL to feed in some Marlins... mine was one!

Even seated deep and crimped over the front driving band they wouldn't feed well jamming on the shoulder at the breech face.

The too long COAL can be dealt with by seating boolits deep or filing the cartridge stop.

The jamming against the breech face seemed to be an issue with the carrier shape tipping the round too nose high.

Randy Buchannan says if you chamfered the edge of the chamber mouth that problem goes away. I reshaped my carrier a bit.

Some Marlins seem to accept SWC's, some do not possibly due to tolerances/small timing differences. Not sure about other lever action guns.

My experience anyway.

Longbow

[longbow]

Can't help much there as my lever action experience is limited to Marlins.

The two issues... or potential issues with SWC's in Marlins is COAL and the tendency of if some SWC's to have long nose making COAL too long to feed reliably and the other is that the shoulder or meplat can jam on the breech face... which mine did using both the Lyman 429421 and H&G #503.

RNFP designs fed fine. I should have left it at that but noooo... I got to tinkering because I wanted to be able to use my Mihec H&G #503.

I really do not know if these are problems for other lever action rifles.

A good bullet design for Marlin and likely any lever action gun is RNFP and particularly the Ranch Dog design available through NOE.

An RNFP that can be seated to correct COAL when crimped is likely your best choice.

Doesn't hurt to try loading some SWC's and try them in your rifle though. If they feed you're laughing!

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

[Lloyd Smale]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Longbow. Any suggestions for a good boolit for BP cartridges in my R92 would be much appreciated. I want something i can shoot in my lever gun and a revolver both.

id try the rcbs 240 swcgc. Its a more accurate bullet then the kieth designs and it has fed in the lever guns ive owned. If i could have only one 44 mold that would be the one.

[Forrest r]

I had the same feeding issue with my marlin 1895 and the Keith bullet. It wouldn't feed in 44mag cases but flowed like water in the 44spl cases. Switched over to the Thompson designed bullets (H&G #142) and the 44mag feeding issues went away in that marlin.

The ruger 44 auto-mag rifle had no issues feeding the keith bullets in the 44mag and 44spl cases. Darn thing pretty much ate everything except wc bullet designs.

[Eddie Southgate]

Is it true that the Keith bullets are hit and miss feeding in lever guns?

It is true that some lever actions have trouble feeding the Keith bullets . It is also true that those same rifles usually will not reliably feed any SWC type bullets . That usually can be fixed by a competent gunsmith . I have several rifles that shoot cartridges using either Keith designs or bullets that are copied from the bullets that Elmer actually did design and have not had any feed issues . Any bullet with a lot of lead and a wide flat nose sticking out of the case can refuse to feed in a lever gun . Short nosed flat bullets normally feed fine .

I have the different styles of Keith bullets sold over the years and though I prefer to stick with the original design I see no significant performance difference between them as long as the three bands are equal . I see very little difference even when they are not exactly equal , fit to the particular gun being more an issue than band length or round vs/ square lube grooves. If they feed through your gun, fit the bore correctly and you use good lube they are accurate , don't lead , and kill as well as anything else I have tried.

PS: My older square groove molds actually throw a 250 grain bullet .

[Eddie Southgate]

Honestly now, do we really know what the "Keith" design is?
Did Elmer ever change the design?

I have a NOE mold that says "41 Keith".
Since it's 41 and not 44, is it still really a Keith?
It is a SWC with 3 equal bands...at least to my eyes they are equal ;)

If it is a copy of the Hensley & Gibbs 220 grain bullet it is a true Elmer Keith bullet copy . If it is a copy of the .41 Keith bullet sold by Lyman then the answer is absolutely , NO . Elmer designed the H&G 220 as by the 60's when the .41 Magnum came out he was not real pleased with what Lyman was doing to his designs . H&G .41 220 is the only true Keith .41 bullet , all others are copies or flat out fakes . The Lyman is a fake.

I have never seen anything written by Elmer stating that he had changed his design so I would say he didn't . I have seen any number of articles he wrote mentioning that he was not pleased with Lyman because of the changes they had made on their own. Maybe I missed something but I doubt it .

[Eddie Southgate]

This picture is from 1961 "Sixguns" :

https://i.postimg.cc/PJJhRKpr/IMG-20211227-WA0000.jpg

Should read 2C,4,7,and 8 Keith design .